Why dating and relationship experience is irrevelant to how good a lover you will be

May 17, 2011

Either way, it seems like the first obstacle to good sex involves getting past the crap society taught us.

Quoted for truth.

May 17, 2011

I used to think that girls in general thought the way you do. Now I'm having doubts after reading about Dust's posts.

I would love to meet some girls through common activities/interests and get to know them a little and then ask them out. This has been my strategy, but that strategy results in very little dates for me as I meet very few women. At this point I'm willing to give cold approaching a try. I can't do any worse than how I'm doing now.

Eh, if you want to play the number game, the random approach thing probably is statistically favorable. I would completely write off a guy who just approached me out of nowhere though, because I know that I'm nothing more than a number to him - if he can ask me out when he knows zilch about me, he'll probably be asking 10 other women a week out as well. I'm not interested in being a number - the bf and I were friends for several months, and then he subtly and single-mindedly courted me for a few months before we became a couple. Then again, other women might differ.

I'm getting the impression that the sort of woman who would agree to a random stranger asking her out on a date is not really the sort of woman an introverted guy would actually be compatible with however, and he also wouldn't be the sort of guy to be able to pull off that sort of stuff.

Just think about any number of romantic movies. Anything from “Titanic” where Jack meets Rose to the “The Notebook.” These are romantic movies about people coming into each others lives out of no where. Unexpected. Many women do find this idea romantic and are open to meeting some one randomly say at the beach, park, or concert.

The entire idea of locking eyes with a stranger across the room and lust/love at first sight is always an exciting one. If its not for you then fine. Many people including myself can feel an attraction for a stranger they just see out some where even if they don’t know them. I will of course get to know them and hopefully that will grow the attraction instead of kill it.

See, the thing is, that's in the movies, not real life. And usually the girl is already interested in the guy to begin with and giving him subtle hints. What's your % of success been anyway, just out of curiousity? Unless you truly are a Brad Pitt lookalike, I'm guessing it hasn't been more than 10%. Doesn't that get tiring?

Again, I think your advice would work well for some guys, I really do. But I really don't think it's the sort of thing that would work well for an introverted guy who's having trouble relating with women to begin with. It'd be like telling a guy who's been a bartender ever since he left grade school, to suddenly jump into Yale and do robotic engineering. Nothing wrong with the guy, just not his field of expertise, and he probably won't do well jumping into the deep end like that.

May 17, 2011

Eh, if you want to play the number game, the random approach thing probably is statistically favorable. I would completely write off a guy who just approached me out of nowhere though, because I know that I'm nothing more than a number to him - if he can ask me out when he knows zilch about me, he'll probably be asking 10 other women a week out as well. I'm not interested in being a number - the bf and I were friends for several months, and then he subtly and single-mindedly courted me for a few months before we became a couple. Then again, other women might differ.

I'm getting the impression that the sort of woman who would agree to a random stranger asking her out on a date is not really the sort of woman an introverted guy would actually be compatible with however, and he also wouldn't be the sort of guy to be able to pull off that sort of stuff.

Well we'll find out soon enough how things work out for me. I really do think that some women would be turned off, but the reality is I'm really not going to meet some girl someplace other than the grocery store or the line at the bank etc. In the past 5 years I've had dates with four women, the longest lasting about 4 dates (depending on what counted as a "date"), and I've been on 3 dates in the past two years. Those numbers aren't going to cut it. So, I'm willing to try this, if I don't have success at it, how will that be any different than where I am now? At least then I'd be able to say I tried everything I could.

May 17, 2011

Eh, if you want to play the number game, the random approach thing probably is statistically favorable. I would completely write off a guy who just approached me out of nowhere though, because I know that I'm nothing more than a number to him - if he can ask me out when he knows zilch about me, he'll probably be asking 10 other women a week out as well. I'm not interested in being a number - the bf and I were friends for several months, and then he subtly and single-mindedly courted me for a few months before we became a couple. Then again, other women might differ.

I'm getting the impression that the sort of woman who would agree to a random stranger asking her out on a date is not really the sort of woman an introverted guy would actually be compatible with however, and he also wouldn't be the sort of guy to be able to pull off that sort of stuff.

See, the thing is, that's in the movies, not real life. And usually the girl is already interested in the guy to begin with and giving him subtle hints. What's your % of success been anyway, just out of curiousity? Unless you truly are a Brad Pitt lookalike, I'm guessing it hasn't been more than 10%. Doesn't that get tiring?

Again, I think your advice would work well for some guys, I really do. But I really don't think it's the sort of thing that would work well for an introverted guy who's having trouble relating with women to begin with. It'd be like telling a guy who's been a bartender ever since he left grade school, to suddenly jump into Yale and do robotic engineering. Nothing wrong with the guy, just not his field of expertise, and he probably won't do well jumping into the deep end like that.

While the success rate on random approaches is very low(10% sounds about right), the method you just described of befriending a woman for several months before trying to date her is actually far less likely to be successful.

As a matter of fact, the "befriend and then ask out" approach is the method that the vast majority of young guys on this board that are having trouble finding dates use.

Just look at any one of the many threads on this board written by young guys who spent several months trying to befriend a girl, asked her out, and got told that they were seen "just as friends". Girls didn't grow attracted to these guys over time because these guys took the time to get to know them, the attraction was either there or it wasn't. All these guys did was delay the inevitable.

These guys would have been much better off if they had hit on the girls they were interested in right off the bat and then moved on to someone else if they were rejected.

Sure, it's tough to muster up the courage to start approaching strangers, but again, part of being successful in dating as a guy is realizing that regular rejection is part of the deal, no matter what method is used.

Edited May 17, 2011 by chuckles11

May 17, 2011

I'm getting the impression that the sort of woman who would agree to a random stranger asking her out on a date is not really the sort of woman an introverted guy would actually be compatible with however, and he also wouldn't be the sort of guy to be able to pull off that sort of stuff.

The problem is that for the typical introverted guy, the friendzone looms so large that getting to know a compatible woman for any length of time before dating is just as risky as asking out a random stranger. Until the introverted guy can figure out to successfully navigate the attraction phase -- the first few minutes, hours, days -- of male/female interactions, compatibility is a luxury that is nice if it comes along but he can't really afford to focus on it. Once he is confident enough to approach dating on HIS terms, then such a guy can focus on compatibility.

May 17, 2011

What makes someone who's had lots of sex, better in the sack than someone who has no prior sexual experience? Some guys are like wham-bam-thank you ma'am. And then, some virgins (like me for instance) read up on the female anatomy, know lots of scientific data about orgasms and etc, and would try to PLEASE her, rather than just please myself.

I totally agree with this. I slept with a virgin and he was the best lover I ever had in my entire life, because he was giving and generous and cared about pleasing me. Of course, at first it was a little difficult because he was unsure of what he was doing; it took a few weeks for him to become less nervous and get used to new sensations in order to reach orgasm. However when it came to pleasing me manually and orally, he was extremely quick off the mark I was happy to be patient with him because I cared about him, which is why I think that virgins are better off learning about sex within the context of a loving relationship.

Anyway, back to the point: I definitely do feel that relationship experience is irrevelant.

Now relationship experience is a whole different ball game! Single people are used to putting themselves first, doing whatever they want, and not considering someone else - because they've never had to. In my experience it can be tough for someone who's never had a relationship before to be considerate towards someone else, to think about their needs and not always put themselves first, and to get used to being in a couple rather than being independent. People who lack relationship experience may find it difficult to express their feelings and may struggle to resolve conflict. Of course these things can be learned, but many people would prefer someone who already knows how to act like a couple, and how to be loving and caring within the context of an exclusive relationship. Someone who cares about you is more likely to be patient while you learn how to behave as a couple, which is yet another reason for virgins to look for a loving relationship if possible.

May 17, 2011

Well we'll find out soon enough how things work out for me. I really do think that some women would be turned off, but the reality is I'm really not going to meet some girl someplace other than the grocery store or the line at the bank etc. In the past 5 years I've had dates with four women, the longest lasting about 4 dates (depending on what counted as a "date"), and I've been on 3 dates in the past two years. Those numbers aren't going to cut it. So, I'm willing to try this, if I don't have success at it, how will that be any different than where I am now? At least then I'd be able to say I tried everything I could.

Fair enough. Certainly if one method doesn't work for you, it doesn't hurt to try another. I simply hope you and the other men out there who try the random approach method don't get all bitter and accuse all women of being bitches due to the responses they receive from this approach.

While the success rate on random approaches is very low(10% sounds about right), the method you just described of befriending a woman for several months before trying to date her is actually far less likely to be successful.

As a matter of fact, the "befriend and then ask out" approach is the method that the vast majority of young guys on this board that are having trouble finding dates use.

Just look at any one of the many threads on this board written by young guys who spent several months trying to befriend a girl, asked her out, and got told that they were seen "just as friends". Girls didn't grow attracted to these guys over time because these guys took the time to get to know them, the attraction was either there or it wasn't. All these guys did was delay the inevitable.

These guys would have been much better off if they had hit on the girls they were interested in right off the bat and then moved on to someone else if they were rejected.

Sure, it's tough to muster up the courage to start approaching strangers, but again, part of being successful in dating as a guy is realizing that regular rejection is part of the deal, no matter what method is used.

Sure it's risky, but I personally don't consider spending a few months making a good friend and ending up single to be a 'waste of my time', to be honest. I don't think it's necessary to have partner after partner one after another with no time in between. Anyhow, the 'months' I mentioned is a little extreme; it's what does it for me, because I can't fall for a guy without actually getting to know him, and it's a slow (and sweet!) process, and I wouldn't agree to a date until I'd at least started falling for him. Other women may definitely be different though; I was merely recommending at least giving it a few days? Between the time you meet and the time you ask her out on a date?

Or did you guys actually mean 'hey, let's grab coffee', ie a semi-, getting-to-know-each-other date instead of an actual, proper one?

May 17, 2011

Fair enough. Certainly if one method doesn't work for you, it doesn't hurt to try another. I simply hope you and the other men out there who try the random approach method don't get all bitter and accuse all women of being bitches due to the responses they receive from this approach.

I'm more likely to just blame myself and my own inadequacies than women. The only other alternative is to wait until I move out (about a year), if I wait that long to actually start dating I think I might go nuts.

Or did you guys actually mean 'hey, let's grab coffee', ie a semi-, getting-to-know-each-other date instead of an actual, proper one?

Yeah I think that's what people are talking about. At least that's what I'm talking about.

May 17, 2011

I'm more likely to just blame myself and my own inadequacies than women. The only other alternative is to wait until I move out (about a year), if I wait that long to actually start dating I think I might go nuts.

Ehhh.. I wouldn't blame myself either if I were you. I'd see it as the 'accepted risk' inherent to the method itself - it really is the equivalent of brute-force hacking, dating style. 99% of your tries in brute-force are likely to end in failure; however, due to the sheer number of tries you get in, you're possibly likely to encounter success after a while. You really need to be able to not take rejection personally if you go that way, though, IMO.

May 18, 2011

I probably wouldn't date someone who just approached me cold and asked me out; he obviously knows nothing about me so I'd assume he was a player who was only attracted by my looks. Typically I meet a guy in a social setting (so we probably already have something in common), and we have a conversation (which suggests that we might get along), then he asks me out (so we can continue getting to know each other). A ten minute conversation is enough to decide whether we find each other interesting; if a guy can't even be bothered to invest ten minutes in learning about my personality (i.e. if he only cares about my looks) then he probably isn't my type anyway.

May 18, 2011

Fair enough. Certainly if one method doesn't work for you, it doesn't hurt to try another. I simply hope you and the other men out there who try the random approach method don't get all bitter and accuse all women of being bitches due to the responses they receive from this approach.

It’s not even really about method. He’s come here saying “I don’t know where to meet women.” Of course if he has friend he is interested in or some other social connection he should approach that. He should also approach random strange women who he find beautiful though. Doing this is the opposite of thinking women are bad or thinking he is bad. It is a proactive approach which given the right attitude will be empowering.

Sure it's risky, but I personally don't consider spending a few months making a good friend and ending up single to be a 'waste of my time', to be honest. I don't think it's necessary to have partner after partner one after another with no time in between. Anyhow, the 'months' I mentioned is a little extreme; it's what does it for me, because I can't fall for a guy without actually getting to know him, and it's a slow (and sweet!) process, and I wouldn't agree to a date until I'd at least started falling for him. Other women may definitely be different though; I was merely recommending at least giving it a few days? Between the time you meet and the time you ask her out on a date?

Or did you guys actually mean 'hey, let's grab coffee', ie a semi-, getting-to-know-each-other date instead of an actual, proper one?

I meant a proper date, but to me getting a coffee or a quick bite to eat is a date. On this date I would also suggest going in for a kiss. I think men should stop letting fear hold them back and be themselves.

Every girl is different and what works for you isn’t necessarily the same for every girl.

I probably wouldn't date someone who just approached me cold and asked me out; he obviously knows nothing about me so I'd assume he was a player who was only attracted by my looks. Typically I meet a guy in a social setting (so we probably already have something in common), and we have a conversation (which suggests that we might get along), then he asks me out (so we can continue getting to know each other). A ten minute conversation is enough to decide whether we find each other interesting; if a guy can't even be bothered to invest ten minutes in learning about my personality (i.e. if he only cares about my looks) then he probably isn't my type anyway.

If you have the opportunity for a conversation then great! If you only have time for a few minutes of flirting then still ask the girl out and get to know her over a drink or food. Yes the guy should get to know the girl for his own benefit because that’s just normal. If he still likes her he should make move. (if that’s what he wants to do) basically he should be himself and not some fake lame version controlled by fear.

May 18, 2011

I probably wouldn't date someone who just approached me cold and asked me out; he obviously knows nothing about me so I'd assume he was a player who was only attracted by my looks. Typically I meet a guy in a social setting (so we probably already have something in common), and we have a conversation (which suggests that we might get along), then he asks me out (so we can continue getting to know each other). A ten minute conversation is enough to decide whether we find each other interesting; if a guy can't even be bothered to invest ten minutes in learning about my personality (i.e. if he only cares about my looks) then he probably isn't my type anyway.

To me -- and I wonder if it's the same for a lot of introverted guys -- ten minutes still seems lightning fast, practically cold-calling. That was probably my downfall, though -- I thought I had to get to know a girl before dating her instead of while dating her. Perhaps when some guys take the advice of asking someone out "right away" it will actually put the guy and the woman he's asking out on the same time frame.

May 18, 2011

To me -- and I wonder if it's the same for a lot of introverted guys -- ten minutes still seems lightning fast, practically cold-calling.

I can be indifferent to a particular man, but really start to like him after a brief conversation. Looks alone won't interest me enough to date a guy, I need to know a little about his personality before I decide if I'm interested. What I want to know is: Is he smart, is he funny, is he confident, what does he do for a living, what are his hobbies, and overall is he a good catch who I want to get to know better? I can figure those things out in a ten minute conversation; admittedly not in any detail, but enough to decide if I want to get to know him better.

May 18, 2011

I totally agree with this. I slept with a virgin and he was the best lover I ever had in my entire life, because he was giving and generous and cared about pleasing me. Of course, at first it was a little difficult because he was unsure of what he was doing; it took a few weeks for him to become less nervous and get used to new sensations in order to reach orgasm. However when it came to pleasing me manually and orally, he was extremely quick off the mark I was happy to be patient with him because I cared about him, which is why I think that virgins are better off learning about sex within the context of a loving relationship.

Thanks for sharing this -- hopefully it will give all the male virgins out there some reassurance.

Now relationship experience is a whole different ball game! Single people are used to putting themselves first, doing whatever they want, and not considering someone else - because they've never had to. In my experience it can be tough for someone who's never had a relationship before to be considerate to wards someone else, to think about their needs and not always put themselves first, and to get used to being in a couple rather than being independent. People who lack relationship experience may find it difficult to express their feelings and may struggle to resolve conflict. Of course these things can be learned, but many people would prefer someone who already knows how to act like a couple, and how to be loving and caring within the context of an exclusive relationship. Someone who cares about you is more likely to be patient while you learn how to behave as a couple, which is yet another reason for virgins to look for a loving relationship if possible.

But I'm going to disagree with you, to some extent, on this. I do think having relationship experience is a good thing, but I think the person and their personality is a much more important factor.

Just because someone has been in multiple relationships before doesn't mean they're going to be better at a relationship than someone with little or no experience. Some people just can't or won't learn how to make a relationship work, no matter how many times they go around. And one person's idea of how to act in a couple can be very different of another's -- love languages have been mentioned on the relationship/marriage-related forums here on LS a number of times -- that doesn't have anything to do with experience.

And really, single people are selfish because they haven't experienced a relationship? That's a ridiculous societal myth that I would like to see the end of. There are plenty of single people who want to do those caring things for a partner, but for whatever reason, haven't found that person yet. There are single people who try to fill that void by doing things for family, friends or charities; it's not the same as having a partner, but would the deserve to be called selfish? I have a friend who's dating and relationship life was totally put on hold while she took care of her dying mother and younger siblings; she has little relationship experience as a result. I'll defy anyone who wants to call her selfish. Some singles may be selfish, but there are those who truly aren't.

People do tend to be more self-centered when they're young (when they also, coincidentally, have less relationship experience), but it's normal when you consider that at that time, many young people are trying to figure out who they are and how they fit into society as an adult. There are plenty of older and/or married people who are selfish by personality. There are plenty of people with relationship experience who just don't learn or don't care to be a better partner to the person they are with.

At the end of the day, what really matters is something you mentioned at the end of your post: someone who cares about you. Someone who cares about you has a better chance of having the motivation to learn how to have a relationship with you, whether they have previous experience or not.

May 18, 2011

I agree with your premise. Men in their 20s and 30s should be dating many women, in order to mature emotionally and figure out what's best for them. The notion that a man "matures" in a LTR is baseless; often, younger men become emotionally stunted by LTRs or early marriages. When the dumping/divorce comes along, they find themselves desperate, fearful of solitude, and ready to cling to the next woman that comes along. Better to sample from the platter or - imagine this - spend some time away from women, before committing to one for a long time period.

You hear a lot of women saying men should "man up" and commit, marry, have kids, etc. This is manning up only on the female's terms. It does a disservice to all parties involved (to say nothing of society) if a man saddles himself with these responsibilities before growing personally, professionally, romantically, etc. We're lucky to have our 20s as a period of exploration in 2011. I recommend young American men do just that - save the LTRs for when you've learned to qualify the right women.

May 18, 2011

Thanks for sharing this -- hopefully it will give all the male virgins out there some reassurance.

I hope it does! I can say from experience that some women aren't turned off by older virgins, and are willing to give them a chance and be patient with them while they get up to speed. If you care about someone, you don't really care if they're a virgin or not, you just want to be with them.

I do think having relationship experience is a good thing, but I think the person and their personality is a much more important factor. Just because someone has been in multiple relationships before doesn't mean they're going to be better at a relationship than someone with little or no experience.

Yes, you're right - personality is the most important thing, and experience doesn't always make someone better at relationships. However, people who lack experience sometimes feel uncomfortable expressing their feelings and behaving in a romantic way, or they don't really know what's expected of them now that they're part of a couple, and they make some mistakes. It can take a while for someone to adjust to their new couple status, and they need a caring partner to guide them through this relationship process.

And really, single people are selfish because they haven't experienced a relationship?

No, not selfish - just not used to centering their life around a partner. They continue behaving in the same independent way as they did when they were single, and it can take some adjustment to realize that they have to accommodate their partner into social events and major life decisions, call to say if they'll be home late, let their partner know their schedule and regularly make time for dates, arrange vacations when their partner can also be off work, etc - they never had to do this stuff before! Making the switch from complete independence to being a couple is a big shift if you've never done it before, and having an understanding partner is a big help.

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