denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Look, until you're committed (and by that, I mean dating for 5-6 months), you don't ask those questions. And even so, you don't judge based on the past. The past is the past. He wasn't dating YOU when he broke up with that girl, or she dumped him, therefore the previous experience is irrevelant. I'm actually going to start a thread on this, because it really bothers me how some people perceive dating experience. So, would you be happy to be with a woman who has had 250 one night stands and cheated on five previous partners on the basis that 'the past is the past'? Also, given that they are discussing marriage, we have to assume that they are committed and have dated for some time.
fortyninethousand322 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Better six months down the road than never. I don't see back peddling. I just see a healthy desire to make sure that this is relationship material before one takes the big decision of tying two lives together. My H asked a lot of questions about my past when we discussed marriage, and it was an important process for him in order to establish compatibility. More generally, I agree with what SG writes below. I respect that. But, guys without much (or any) experience with women (relationships or otherwise) read this as a plot to keep them perpetually single and alone. Shrug it off if you want, but try being an inexperienced guy in your mid to late 20s and see if you don't get some freaky ideas as to why you're still single (and feel resentment towards these types of attitudes about past experience).
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I respect that. But, guys without much (or any) experience with women (relationships or otherwise) read this as a plot to keep them perpetually single and alone. Shrug it off if you want, but try being an inexperienced guy in your mid to late 20s and see if you don't get some freaky ideas as to why you're still single (and feel resentment towards these types of attitudes about past experience). Listen, I married a virgin. I have no issues with men who are inexperienced. But the issue in the OP (the way I read it) is whether this man is emotionally ready for commitment to the OP. I think that is a perfectly legitimate question when one is discussing marriage. She has NOT raised any kind of problems or issues with inexperienced men, it is another poster in this thread who has made it into this issue. Women get judged by men all the time based on their 'number', so it's not as if we're particularly foreign to the idea of being 'judged by our past'.
LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 So, would you be happy to be with a woman who has had 250 one night stands and cheated on five previous partners on the basis that 'the past is the past'? Also, given that they are discussing marriage, we have to assume that they are committed and have dated for some time. If she's turned over a new leaf, yes I would. In fact, I would date a hooker, if she had stopped prostituting and was ready for a committed relationship. Like I said in the thread I started, people are such biased individuals.
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 If she's turned over a new leaf, yes I would. In fact, I would date a hooker, if she had stopped prostituting and was ready for a committed relationship. . Right, exactly. I'm not arguing with that. But then I would expect that you would have to ask her some questions in order to find out whether she has turned over a new leaf or not? How else would you find out if she didn't offer the information herself?
fortyninethousand322 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Listen, I married a virgin. I have no issues with men who are inexperienced. But the issue in the OP (the way I read it) is whether this man is emotionally ready for commitment to the OP. I think that is a perfectly legitimate question when one is discussing marriage. She has NOT raised any kind of problems or issues with inexperienced men, it is another poster in this thread who has made it into this issue. Women get judged by men all the time based on their 'number', so it's not as if we're particularly foreign to the idea of being 'judged by our past'. I definitely get that. But the last page or so of this thread has started going down the road of why inexperience is bad. And people (women in this case) having to know whether or not the person they're dating has any past experience (meaning experience = ability to have a healthy relationship). I was specifically trying to dispute that notion and trying to explain why some people were reacting so negatively in this thread.
LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Right, exactly. I'm not arguing with that. But then I would expect that you would have to ask her some questions in order to find out whether she has turned over a new leaf or not? How else would you find out if she didn't offer the information herself? The point I'm trying to make is that people ask questions specifically to rule out people. Not to take the information into consideration, and keep an open mind. What if the OP's boyfriend had a bad breakup? Does that necessarily mean that she should break up with HIM, simply because he had a bad experience with another woman (that wasn't her?) In fact, let's all go cheat on someone with someone else, because of course, if they're with someone, they're boyfriend/girlfriend material. Oh wait...that's flawed, because they're cheaters! So we'll break up with them, and not date anyone! How in the world does that make any kind of rational sense?
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 The point I'm trying to make is that people ask questions specifically to rule out people. Not to take the information into consideration, and keep an open mind. What if the OP's boyfriend had a bad breakup? Does that necessarily mean that she should break up with HIM, simply because he had a bad experience with another woman (that wasn't her?) In fact, let's all go cheat on someone with someone else, because of course, if they're with someone, they're boyfriend/girlfriend material. Oh wait...that's flawed, because they're cheaters! So we'll break up with them, and not date anyone! How in the world does that make any kind of rational sense? Well, that depends on the person - some people are judgmental and some are not. Personally, I'd rather find out sooner rather than later if I'm planning to spend my life with someone. There are plenty of men who don't accept my sexual history, and I'd like to know that quite early on so we can both make choices accordingly. Nowhere in the OP can I see anything that says she would break up with her bf if it is indeed the case that he has had a bad break up. It says nothing about her not wanting to date him. It says nothing about her not considering him boyfriend material. And she certainly hasn't said anything at all about cheating. I really don't know where you're taking all that from?? She is, however, trying to settle her small doubt to whether he is emotionally ready for marriage. That's a quite responsible thing to do, IMO.
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Right, exactly. I'm not arguing with that. But then I would expect that you would have to ask her some questions in order to find out whether she has turned over a new leaf or not? How else would you find out if she didn't offer the information herself? again, back to the point i made previously, you women can't predict the future but that sure doesn't stop you from trying. questions can be answered with lies, very easily. and yeah, it doesn't take much practice at it to look you in the eye and not blink while giving you the lie you want to hear, either. you can't find out beforehand. there is no way for you to find out what's going to happen. you will NEVER find out until whatever happens, happens. there are probably other text formatting options i haven't thought of, maybe one of them would help that fact sink in. if i knew what was going to happen tomorrow i sure as hell wouldn't be posting on this forum, i'd be loading up my brokerage account with every nickel i could beg borrow or steal. but that's the difference between men and you, we know that there's no way to figure out what's going to happen tomorrow, you keep telling yourself that you can.
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 again, back to the point i made previously, you women can't predict the future but that sure doesn't stop you from trying. questions can be answered with lies, very easily. and yeah, it doesn't take much practice at it to look you in the eye and not blink while giving you the lie you want to hear, either. you can't find out beforehand. there is no way for you to find out what's going to happen. you will NEVER find out until whatever happens, happens. there are probably other text formatting options i haven't thought of, maybe one of them would help that fact sink in. if i knew what was going to happen tomorrow i sure as hell wouldn't be posting on this forum, i'd be loading up my brokerage account with every nickel i could beg borrow or steal. but that's the difference between men and you, we know that there's no way to figure out what's going to happen tomorrow, you keep telling yourself that you can. No, we can't plan the future, but we can prepare. Preparation involves obtaining information upon which we base decisions. I'd rather make a better informed decision than one based upon very little information.
LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Well, that depends on the person - some people are judgmental and some are not. Personally, I'd rather find out sooner rather than later if I'm planning to spend my life with someone. There are plenty of men who don't accept my sexual history, and I'd like to know that quite early on so we can both make choices accordingly. Nowhere in the OP can I see anything that says she would break up with her bf if it is indeed the case that he has had a bad break up. It says nothing about her not wanting to date him. It says nothing about her not considering him boyfriend material. And she certainly hasn't said anything at all about cheating. I really don't know where you're taking all that from?? She is, however, trying to settle her small doubt to whether he is emotionally ready for marriage. That's a quite responsible thing to do, IMO. I suppose I drove this completely off topic, but most people that ask about previous relationship experience are trying to rule out boyfriends/girlfriends, not keep them. That is where I'm getting this from. You bring up something that relates to something else, and a whole new discussion is brought in. I agree that it's responsible. I can't argue with that.
Jazzari Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 You know, I ask ALOT of questions during a relationship though. I can say its all about getting to know them, but its also about ruling them out. For instance, I want to know if he likes animals. Does he like camping, hiking, those types of things. Is he a party guy? All the answers to those questions I find out gradually when he tells me stories of his past. Learning about his past relationships is also part of it. I don't need to know every little detail (in fact I would prefer not) but I do want to know how he handles himself in situations. Did he cheat? Did his ex cheat? If so, how did he handle it? Did he burn her house down? Shoot the guy? What? I don't sit there and shotgun the guy with questions, but these stories come out in the course of a relationship. And based on what I hear, I decide whether he is the guy for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's a delicate dance, because oversharing certain aspects of a past relationship is rude. But I am interested in these things in a general sense. It's all about sharing your lives. ALL of it. The guy wasn't born the day I met him. I have to accept him as he is and how he was. Oh - and for the record, I think its rare for a person to change.
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 No, we can't plan the future, but we can prepare. Preparation involves obtaining information upon which we base decisions. I'd rather make a better informed decision than one based upon very little information. and now we're getting on to the "why are men scared of commitment" part . because a woman has prepared the idea of a year(s) long relationship and prepared for a wedding proposal and prepared for how many kids you're gonna have and prepared for what kind of house you're going to buy together on the flip side... she has prepared to find out he's cheating with his secretary and prepared to find out that he still talks to female friends that she hates and prepared to find out that he lied about his job and prepared to find out that she dislikes his habits and when you hit a man with all of those preparations, he's thinking about what was said at dinner yesterday. you can't make a decision about something that hasn't happened yet. it's all fantasy. you can believe what someone says, or not. you can be happy with what someone does, or not. you can be content with how someone acts, or not. none of those verbs are future tense, they're all present tense. for the nots, you can tell the other person that you don't like whatever the 'not' is, and maybe they'll stop doing whatever it is to accommodate you, or maybe they won't. you can't make up the truth in your own mind, you can observe and react, that's it.
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 and now we're getting on to the "why are men scared of commitment" part . because a woman has prepared the idea of a year(s) long relationship and prepared for a wedding proposal and prepared for how many kids you're gonna have and prepared for what kind of house you're going to buy together on the flip side... she has prepared to find out he's cheating with his secretary and prepared to find out that he still talks to female friends that she hates and prepared to find out that he lied about his job and prepared to find out that she dislikes his habits and when you hit a man with all of those preparations, he's thinking about what was said at dinner yesterday. you can't make a decision about something that hasn't happened yet. it's all fantasy. you can believe what someone says, or not. you can be happy with what someone does, or not. you can be content with how someone acts, or not. none of those verbs are future tense, they're all present tense. for the nots, you can tell the other person that you don't like whatever the 'not' is, and maybe they'll stop doing whatever it is to accommodate you, or maybe they won't. you can't make up the truth in your own mind, you can observe and react, that's it. Nah, I don't have any issues like that :laugh: I'm pretty content and take life as it is and people as they are. I want to know who I get married to, though. It's not about trying to change people, it's about finding out who someone is.
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) Nah, I don't have any issues like that :laugh: I'm pretty content and take life as it is and people as they are. I want to know who I get married to, though. It's not about trying to change people, it's about finding out who someone is. i'm not trying to pick an e-agrument with a woman i don't even know , btw, i just happened across your post as i was thinking what i was thinking. see jazzari's post... You know, I ask ALOT of questions during a relationship though. I can say its all about getting to know them, but its also about ruling them out. For instance, I want to know if he likes animals. Does he like camping, hiking, those types of things. Is he a party guy? All the answers to those questions I find out gradually when he tells me stories of his past. Learning about his past relationships is also part of it. I don't need to know every little detail (in fact I would prefer not) but I do want to know how he handles himself in situations. Did he cheat? Did his ex cheat? If so, how did he handle it? Did he burn her house down? Shoot the guy? What? I don't sit there and shotgun the guy with questions, but these stories come out in the course of a relationship. And based on what I hear, I decide whether he is the guy for me. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's a delicate dance, because oversharing certain aspects of a past relationship is rude. But I am interested in these things in a general sense. It's all about sharing your lives. ALL of it. The guy wasn't born the day I met him. I have to accept him as he is and how he was. Oh - and for the record, I think its rare for a person to change. the above is my point. you can't decide within a week of meeting someone, or even a month, or sometimes even a few months, what the answers to those relationship questions are. so there's no point in asking them beforehand, because the answers don't mean anything. if you invite men to lie, they'll lie. women would be much better served by observing more and thinking less. that's why the best we can do is start with hobbies and interests, and move up from there over a period of time. the only way you find out more 'dirt' before then is if the person is a bad liar. those are easy to sniff out. and yes, everyone will in all likelihood get duped by a good liar every now and then. i know i have. no, there's nothing you can do about it. in fact, snooping around with constant questions about someone's past on the first few dates is a good way to find good liars, not a good way to find out facts. a good liar will know what you want to hear and give you just that. it is rare for a person to change, i agree. so if there are deal breakers, they will come out eventually. but trying to find them out beforehand is an exercise in futility. Edited May 15, 2011 by thatone
denise_xo Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 the above is my point. you can't decide within a week of meeting someone, or even a month, or sometimes even a few months, what the answers to those relationship questions are. so there's no point in asking them beforehand, because the answers don't mean anything. if you invite men to lie, they'll lie. women would be much better served by observing more and thinking less. that's why the best we can do is start with hobbies and interests, and move up from there over a period of time. the only way you find out more 'dirt' before then is if the person is a bad liar. those are easy to sniff out. and yes, everyone will in all likelihood get duped by a good liar every now and then. i know i have. no, there's nothing you can do about it. in fact, snooping around with constant questions about someone's past on the first few dates is a good way to find good liars, not a good way to find out facts. a good liar will know what you want to hear and give you just that. it is rare for a person to change, i agree. so if there are deal breakers, they will come out eventually. but trying to find them out beforehand is an exercise in futility. Well, I think I read jazzari's post and your point a bit differently. The bit I disagree with most is the bit in bold. We all come with different type of baggage and histories. I think the way we talk about those histories can say A LOT about who we are and our values. To me that's important, and I would want a partner who thinks that's relevant, too. Of course whether someone lies to us is completely out of our control, but my personal lie detector has worked fairly well so far, as far as I know.
Flgirl44 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 How is anything he says to you about those past relationships going to be useful in evaluating the important things? Does he treat you well and with kindness? Do you enjoy the time you spend together? Is trust and love growing between you in measureable ways? Is your physical relationship fulfilling your desires? Are you both showing signs of willingness to commit for the long term? If the answer to those is "yes" why not leave the past in the past on both ends? Because I did these things you are describing and it doesn't always work that way. While there were character flaw tips that were here and there it would've been massively useful to know that my ex had cheated his way out of every past relationship instead of leaving room for a woman to leave with dignity. His loop is to be a serial monogamous person who then cheats his way out like a coward. While I saw he had accountability and victim issues I had no way of knowing what he was capable of....unless of course I inquire about dating history. Of course he could always lie but its hard to be convincing when it was every single one of his past relationships. Plus if you find these things out later it's like even more of a *face palm* One more thing...HOW they talk about the past can be very telling as well.
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) Well, I think I read jazzari's post and your point a bit differently. The bit I disagree with most is the bit in bold. We all come with different type of baggage and histories. I think the way we talk about those histories can say A LOT about who we are and our values. To me that's important, and I would want a partner who thinks that's relevant, too. Of course whether someone lies to us is completely out of our control, but my personal lie detector has worked fairly well so far, as far as I know. the natural progression of this conversation i was thinking while typing all of that is a basic difference in gender roles. women have all the options from first contact with a man, and are faced basically with giving a simple answer of yes or no. men have to reveal themselves first. we have to pay for the dinners, we have to direct conversation most of the time, we have to initiate the physical/sexual contact most of the time, so we are used to giving up a little trust to start with, it's all part of the game to us. for me, i'm a generally honest person. by generally i mean if you ask me a question you're gonna get an honest answer, or if i don't want to answer, you'll get an honest reason about why i don't want to answer. and yeah i have a pretty good lie detector as well. thankfully most women are terrible liars, just as most men are . but for women who say they want honest men, all of the above is worth thinking about. as a generally honest person, if she asks me the same question twice fishing for a different answer, that's a sign of mistrust. if she asks me questions about previous women way too soon, that's a sign of mistrust. when men get even a hint that the little bit of trust we gave was not deserved, we're gone. even if it's not walking away from the table and leaving you in a restaurant by yourself, when the observation is made that "i trusted her and she is plotting against me", she's history, the decision is made in an instant and it's just a matter of time. the only question at that point is whether or not to continue on with a well prepared set of lies to try to get laid, or just wash your hands of her after the waiter brings the check. just as women can justify pre-judging a man based on all of their 'preparations', men can justify lying to those same women just to get laid. that's how our brains work. again, at that point it's just a game, and all's fair. so for women who say they want to find and impress honest men, think about what honest men are thinking. qualify and time those remarks and questions accordingly. keep score, if he reveals something, reveal something about yourself before asking another one of those big questions. that's what honest men look for. you'll probably find that by doing so liars are easier to spot, and honest men more easily attracted to you. all of the above will work a helluva lot better than trying to conjure up the future in your mind. Edited May 15, 2011 by thatone
OliveOyl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I'm surprised so many of you are so hesitant to discuss past relationships. I find it to be an important part of one's history. Not as a means to judge or to cross someone off the list. Not at all. But to see what issues they struggled with, which can be indicators to what they find important now, and just because... well when I'm getting to know someone, I want to know about their past as a way of sharing. I'm never jealous of exes no matter how much they were in love in the past, unless an ex starts to come back into the picture. If someone refused to talk about their relationship history, I would see that as a huge red flag.
fortyninethousand322 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I'm surprised so many of you are so hesitant to discuss past relationships. I find it to be an important part of one's history. Not as a means to judge or to cross someone off the list. Not at all. But to see what issues they struggled with, which can be indicators to what they find important now, and just because... well when I'm getting to know someone, I want to know about their past as a way of sharing. I'm never jealous of exes no matter how much they were in love in the past, unless an ex starts to come back into the picture. If someone refused to talk about their relationship history, I would see that as a huge red flag. It depends on the stage of the relationship. Earlier than a few months the only history I will discuss will be a creative exaggeration of the few dates I have actually been on. After that I think I"d be more comfortable being honest. Why? Because I'd be afraid that my inexperience would turn her off, and given that getting dates is a rarity in my life it might be years before I'd have another chance at a relationship. I'd never refuse to talk about my history, I'd just refuse to be honest about it...at least at first.
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 While I saw he had accountability and victim issues I had no way of knowing what he was capable of.... look at what you just said. yes you did know. you said yourself that you knew. you convinced yourself otherwise. that's why your ex was probably a relationship of months/years, and my last one was weeks. she lied, i caught it. i asked her about it, she got defensive and confrontational, the end. you can't change people by imagining them in a different light, you can just play the cards you're dealt.
OliveOyl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 It depends on the stage of the relationship. Earlier than a few months the only history I will discuss will be a creative exaggeration of the few dates I have actually been on. After that I think I"d be more comfortable being honest. Why? Because I'd be afraid that my inexperience would turn her off, and given that getting dates is a rarity in my life it might be years before I'd have another chance at a relationship. I'd never refuse to talk about my history, I'd just refuse to be honest about it...at least at first. I don't know your age range, but in my 20s I wouldn't have ruled any guy out for inexperience. One of my BFs I got along with best was a virgin when I met him at around 24. It wasn't an issue. We didn't end up together but that was because I couldn't handle his born-again Christian stuff. I was kind of a late bloomer so I just never thought lack of experience was an automatic deal-breaker. My brother is in his 50s and as far as I know, he's never had a GF (and he's not gay either.) I'm still hoping he finds someone....
thatone Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 50s!? i thought i was missing out for only having 4 short relationships before i was 30.
fortyninethousand322 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I don't know your age range, but in my 20s I wouldn't have ruled any guy out for inexperience. One of my BFs I got along with best was a virgin when I met him at around 24. It wasn't an issue. We didn't end up together but that was because I couldn't handle his born-again Christian stuff. I was kind of a late bloomer so I just never thought lack of experience was an automatic deal-breaker. My brother is in his 50s and as far as I know, he's never had a GF (and he's not gay either.) I'm still hoping he finds someone.... I'm 23, so I guess I'm in the range that it's not too bad to be inexperienced. Hopefully most girls my age share your view. I honestly don't think it's my inexperience that's holding me back, it's more that I hate cold approaching but I also have no idea where to meet women. Most of the things I do with my spare time are male-dominated, and most of the cool things to do that might involve women take place 45+ minutes away from where I currently live. I've tried online dating but that's a crap shoot that I keep losing at. I hope your brother finds someone too.
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