daisy love Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Err... and nobody here on LS is in love with you Daisy. What does that say, using your rationale? I'd say the feeling is mutual. P.S. Nice try twisting what I said you guys.
thissecretgirl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 No thanks. I don't think starting a thread about what ppl I don't even know think of my love would be very interesting. I am sorry for interrupting the thread tho, even tho most of mine have been treated the same. No daisy, you missed the point; a thread about why people assume MM is more committed to their W than AP. Since it was that comment that started all this. But thanks anyway
thissecretgirl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Isn't this whole thread and others on this forum the exact illustration of unmoderated kicking others when they are down? There is no empathy but complete and utter ruthlessness and hate. It is hypocrisy in every sense of the word. Perhaps it is time for posters to take a good, hard look in the mirror and really ask themselves if this is who they are. And if this is who they are, then they are no better than those they abhor. Well said ET.
bentnotbroken Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Isn't this whole thread and others on this forum the exact illustration of unmoderated kicking others when they are down? There is no empathy but complete and utter ruthlessness and hate. It is hypocrisy in every sense of the word. Perhaps it is time for posters to take a good, hard look in the mirror and really ask themselves if this is who they are. And if this is who they are, then they are no better than those they abhor. I have no idea if this is what this thread is about. Most of them tend to ver off the track. I stop trying to figure them out a while back. I guess we each get to define empathy, sympathy, help, support by our own experiences and needs...just like love, respect, honor, maturity and integrity. Just for the record...I abhor actions(or lack there of)not the people, since I don't know them. Now if I knew them personally:laugh:
fascinated Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I apologize if I have offended about my thought that OM or OW have committment issues. That is entirely based upon the men (all exes for various reasons) who have approached me since I've been married, essentially letting me know they'd be available to be the OM if I was interested in an A. Considering the sample I am deriving this from, my thoughts are skewed based on my prior relationships with these men. Perhaps it says more about the type of man/boy I was attracted to prior to marriage, as they don't appeal to me now.
SidLyon Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Isn't this whole thread and others on this forum the exact illustration of unmoderated kicking others when they are down? There is no empathy but complete and utter ruthlessness and hate. It is hypocrisy in every sense of the word. Perhaps it is time for posters to take a good, hard look in the mirror and really ask themselves if this is who they are. And if this is who they are, then they are no better than those they abhor. The problem with this sort of post is that it demonstrates all to well, exactly the characteristics it is intending to denigrate. The first sentence says it all (and yes I suppose it includes my post as well as Elphaba's): "Isn't this whole thread and others on this forum the exact illustration of unmoderated kicking others when they are down? "
fascinated Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 This surprises me. I've read on here of OW who had previously been in 20/25 yr Rs. Do you consider them to be commitment-phobes? I hadn't heard this theory on OW before and it intrigues me. I've been married 21 years and recently considered being the OW in an EA. I do wonder if I'm someone who has a hard time committing to my marriage in order to consider that as an option. I can also relate to being vulnerable and probably depressed.
bentnotbroken Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I am thinking that you do not believe that values as simple as love, respect, honor, maturity and integrity have multiple definitions. I guess the hard part for everyone is upholding them all the time. I think they have as many definitions as empathy and support.
fascinated Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 In response to Gentlegirl, I don't think anyone could blame you in that situation. I'd say it's the exception.
SidLyon Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Is that all you got? I guess if you can't argue substance you can try and argue structure. To each their own. CIAO You brought it up. I was agreeing with your first post on this thread. It wasn't my first post in this thread.
crazycatlady Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I am not in love with his W. Are you truly for real? You don't get why I said that at all? Are you in denial? 16? Oh boy.....I think I feel sorry for you.... Back to the original topic....I do think there are typical patterns. I think some people follow typical patterns whether they know it or not or admit it or not. I think the longer someone is involved in an affair, the more likely it is to be typical. I also think people are less unique then they like to think they are.
Silly_Girl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I've been married 21 years and recently considered being the OW in an EA. I do wonder if I'm someone who has a hard time committing to my marriage in order to consider that as an option. I can also relate to being vulnerable and probably depressed. Hi again, I understand the words in your post, but it reads to me that you lack motivation (or something) to keep yourself committed to your husband. I do not at all read that you're incapable of being in a committed relationship because, to my mind, being with someone 20+ years proves you're not commitment-shy. So the problem is the R, or rather how you choose to deal with it, not a fundamental issue within you (such as the inability to commit).
fascinated Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 So I'm not as fundamentally screwed up as I think I am? lol, I like that train of thought but have a hard time believing it. My EA appears to be over as quickly as it began, and it has left me feeling fundamentally flawed. I look at my H who is in the same problematic R, but I never worry that he would have an A because he's just not wired that way.
Silly_Girl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 So I'm not as fundamentally screwed up as I think I am? lol, I like that train of thought but have a hard time believing it. My EA appears to be over as quickly as it began, and it has left me feeling fundamentally flawed. I look at my H who is in the same problematic R, but I never worry that he would have an A because he's just not wired that way. Does he have different needs? Or does he have his 'thing'? You have the EA, does he react? Are ther symptoms that are not affair-related?
pureinheart Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 So I'm not as fundamentally screwed up as I think I am? lol, I like that train of thought but have a hard time believing it. My EA appears to be over as quickly as it began, and it has left me feeling fundamentally flawed. I look at my H who is in the same problematic R, but I never worry that he would have an A because he's just not wired that way. ((((((((hugs)))))))) I believe we are all a WIP (work in progress)...Fascinated, we are all hopelessly human, with successes and failures. I think the important thing is to keep ourselves within the realm of balance as best we can. I never really understood the term, "keeping it real"...it seemed to state some sort of perfection that on this earth is not going to happen (with me anyway)...no, it means being realistic about life in general. Not going to extremes. I don't know your history (story), although you sound very humble and grounded, which according to my beliefs, marks the beginning of understanding/wisdom. I have a great sense all will work out with you and for you...
fascinated Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 H didn't have much reaction to the EA, but it was mostly long distance and a non-immediate threat, mostly a friendship thing as I wasn't lying about it. Our relationship is definitely flawed, but he always seems to be the better man who does everything right. I tend to go on drinking, eating or spending binges to cope rather than constructive skills like hobbies (which I do have) or exercise. He's mostly just a grump, but I figure I made him that way.
Silly_Girl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 H didn't have much reaction to the EA, but it was mostly long distance and a non-immediate threat, mostly a friendship thing as I wasn't lying about it. Our relationship is definitely flawed, but he always seems to be the better man who does everything right. I tend to go on drinking, eating or spending binges to cope rather than constructive skills like hobbies (which I do have) or exercise. He's mostly just a grump, but I figure I made him that way. Sounds like you're a lucky lady. Can you turn to him at all? Share your feelings? Do you have someone you can talk to just for you?
pureinheart Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Hi, I'm still fairly new to this forum, but in reading many different threads I've observed that there are many generalizations about MM. Perhaps I am misreading, or I just haven't read enough, but the generalizations I've read are that most MM are cake-eaters, will tell OW anything to keep stringing them along, lie about plans to leave their wives... I've really been thinking about this. As an OW myself (married though), I wondered if there are that many generalizations to be made about MM, surely there are equally as many to be made about OW. I'm not starting this thread to create conflict or invite argument, but I wondered... if OW tend to have very similar experiences (there have been references on this threads to read other threads because the stories are recycled over and over again...) then surely that must be because OW tend to behave in very similar ways too. Does that make any sense? If I'm tempted to scrutinize my AP for falling into the "typical" description of a MM, then don't I also have to reflect on how I fit the typical OW mould? Thoughts? Cabin In certain cases we are dealing with individuals that operate on a seemingly "non human" level. There are deceivers that deceive to the core. These types have no feelings whatsoever, and are not the norm IMO. Your typical A is just that. No demons. No generalizations. Just people being people. We are all individuals, no two exactly the same, I believe it's unfair to generalize because no two R's are exactly the same either. Deep down everyone has their reasons for doing what they do. When the marriage vows are taken, there are more than just a couple of vows that are declaration of committment. I believe that all of them are equally important, not just infidelity. Due to the nature of this and other boards, infidelity/A's are the topic, although I would hope that not only the A or infidelity is addressed, but all of the vows. I can't even begin to tell you how it has helped me, with any issue of anger, to realise that I played some part in the break up/disintegration of the R...even if it was only 1%, it still causes me to see that I should forgive, forget and learn. As long as I hold whoever/whatever to my unforgiveness I cease to grow, I am bound. Everyone has their own time, and some of what you see in these forums is a release of anger, which IMO is very much needed for some. It would be better though not to hate because for me hate kept me bound to that person, place or thing... let the hurt work to your ("your" in general) good, maintain balance the best one can, and know that it WILL get better...in my world, it has no choice:)
pureinheart Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) H didn't have much reaction to the EA, but it was mostly long distance and a non-immediate threat, mostly a friendship thing as I wasn't lying about it. Our relationship is definitely flawed, but he always seems to be the better man who does everything right. I tend to go on drinking, eating or spending binges to cope rather than constructive skills like hobbies (which I do have) or exercise. He's mostly just a grump, but I figure I made him that way. No love, you did not make him that way, he most likely is frustrated concerning the M and outside issues, although we all choose our behavior most of the time, the other part of the time it is automatic due to old patterns and learned behaviors. You know what...I almost married an old boyfriend a couple of years ago, both of us had played with the notion of marriage a few times prior, although I cut it off. He seemed to be perfect also...now back in the day when we dated (approx 10 yrs prior) we meshed really well, because we were both "people". He changed and quit a bunch of stuff, none of which really affected me because I have never been much of a drinker (but can keep up with the best ...lol)...I go through periods of drinking, then won't drink for a long time. I mean he is super intelligent, extremely good looking, and has most everything a girl could want...although he forgot where he came from and there was some arrogance. He lacked understanding concerning the reasons as to why people do certain things and was condemning in certain areas. I could not hang with that...I need to be accepted for who I am TODAY. I felt it would be better to be alone than deal with that on a daily basis. Behavioral changes happen IMO in Gods time, not mans. I believe the control issue, and trying to change the other spouse is the biggest reason for the disintegration of marriages today. I would say the biggest mistake I made in the majority of romantic R's is focusing on the other person...wondering what they were or were not doing. Had I been in my own business, I could have saved myself a WHOLE lot of heartache. In your case (and I'm not inferring that either of you are trying to change the other), you can't change him, and he can't change you. As one who has dealt with some personal addictions..the worst IMO was smoking because I think cigs are the most addictive thing on this planet because of what the cig companies put in them...there is a root cause. I really believe we all have addictions of some kind. Society has deemed certain addictions as "worse" than others...maybe that's true, although I think some manifest due to a lack of something...and as humans, there will always be lack in some area, so please don't beat yourself up...is councelling an option? Edited May 15, 2011 by pureinheart
Breezy Trousers Posted May 20, 2011 Posted May 20, 2011 Hi, I'm not starting this thread to create conflict or invite argument, but I wondered... if OW tend to have very similar experiences (there have been references on this threads to read other threads because the stories are recycled over and over again...) then surely that must be because OW tend to behave in very similar ways too. Does that make any sense? If I'm tempted to scrutinize my AP for falling into the "typical" description of a MM, then don't I also have to reflect on how I fit the typical OW mould? I have absolutely no problem reflecting on how I might fit typical OW mold. In fact, that's much of my focus these days. I think I fit "typical OW mold" in that I had a strong susceptibility to fantasy. I could go on and on with characteristics, but this is probably #1 characteristic for most OW. #2 would be poor boundary function. #3 * might * be a mild, almost unnoticed, state of depression or boredom. I notice many OW start their affairs after being mildly depressed for a long time or experiencing a personal loss within a year or so before the EA/PA .... Nothing will pull one out of a mild depression/boredom like an affair! For a while, anyway. But, as I said, the list could go on.
Gentlegirl Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Big sweeping statement. Married happily 31 years until the death of my husband and lots more. don't make assumptions It seems that anyone in a committed relationship who is stepping out with an AP is considered a cake eater. Those people are lying to some degree and have boundary issues. Is is safe to say that OW also have boundary issues? Don't OM and OW both have difficulty committing and problems sticking with the bad stuff in a real relationship? I say that because the people I know personally who are okay being the OM or OW are rarely able to stay in a committed relationship theirselves. It's easier for them to work within the constraints of an A because they don't have to have a R based on reality, they get all the good stuff and little of the bad.
OWoman Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 There is certainly validity in thinking OW's have some similar traits, I think some of them are just common to women as most women tend to be the fixer, and nurturing Nope, that one's not me. I expect other people to fix their own problems. I'm happy to support someone who is making the effort themselves, but I'm nobody's social worker! Don't OM and OW both have difficulty committing and problems sticking with the bad stuff in a real relationship? I say that because the people I know personally who are okay being the OM or OW are rarely able to stay in a committed relationship theirselves. In my case, that was a matter of prioritisation. As a single parent, manager, pet carer, activist and home owner, I had more than enough commitments which required me to "stick with the bad stuff" as well as the good, and I simply didn't want the extraneous demands that a FTR would bring - for little or no reward beyond what I was already getting elsewhere. My needs were all met, aside from crash hot sex, and I simply wasn't prepared to invest huge resources in getting a whole bunch of stuff I didn't want or need when I could just get what I wanted without that demanding investment. For the most part, it seems OW are vulnerable if only at the point of becoming OW. Nope, not in my case! Vulnerability and naivete led to my first M. The strength I developed after leaving helped me to recognise what I wanted and needed, and the best way of getting that, and to insist on what I wanted and needed in a R, rather than conforming to societal expectations or pressures from hopeful SGs. Also depression and naivete. That was my first M. My As were informed choices, made from a position of strength and self-knowledge. I think there are many kinds of OWs, and I think any checklist will resonate with some more than with others.
Breezy Trousers Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) It seems that anyone in a committed relationship who is stepping out with an AP is considered a cake eater. Those people are lying to some degree and have boundary issues. Is is safe to say that OW also have boundary issues? Don't OM and OW both have difficulty committing and problems sticking with the bad stuff in a real relationship? I say that because the people I know personally who are okay being the OM or OW are rarely able to stay in a committed relationship theirselves. It's easier for them to work within the constraints of an A because they don't have to have a R based on reality, they get all the good stuff and little of the bad. It's interesting that this comment appears to be a lightening rod. I think there's some truth to this statement for many OW, but not all, so it probably can't be considered a prototype. In fact, as with MM, there probably isn't a "prototype" outside of obvious poor boundaries and lack of empathy for others ("all is fair in love and war" approach). My marriage/relationship was in its 18th year when I first seriously entertained having an affair. Like Gentlegirl, I don't fit this. However I know OW who certainly fit Fascinated's observation. My friend - OW in current 3 yr affair -- admits she is only interested in unavailable men. The one non-affair she's had in the years I've known her was in a 10-yr relationship with a man who refused to commit to her but openly shared his life with another woman (platonic - yeah, odd).... The OW my husband was first involved with was divorced from her long-term marriage for serial cheating. On the surface, she had the image of being able to commit to a long-term marriage but that was never the reality. She had repeated affairs with the husbands of her friends -- one such affair lasted 7 years. Speaking for myself, perhaps there's an OW tendency toward the "knight in shining armor" fantasy reframed as "love." We want to feed off of MM for some reason, and the reasons may vary.... Either MM will rescue us from mild depression, will rescue us from our perception of a dead-end life (i.e., unhappily married or single and believing marriage will fix us), will rescue us by lifting us into a higher lifestyle and status (unconscious/conscious gold digging into someone else's marriage). In my experience, I felt very insecure in my workplace. MM was powerful and macho at workplace. I saw him as a potential daddy figure / knight in shining armor. Total illusion, of course. Turns out he's more insecure than I am, from what I've seen. But it took me a while to see that. As I grew in my own confidence, his lack of confidence became more apparent to me. That's why feeding off of someone to get something you're ultimately responsible for can be foolish. Edited May 23, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
fascinated Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Sounds like you're a lucky lady. Can you turn to him at all? Share your feelings? Do you have someone you can talk to just for you? Sorry, hadn't seen this thread for a while. I do have close girlfriends and a private appointment with a therapist that we've used for marriage and family counseling this week. She usually has a lot of good relationship advice on interacting with people. I'm debating telling her about my EA. He's coming to visit his daughter tomorrow and will be helping her move over the next few weeks. While we've agreed to keep things at a level that we won't have any regrets or embarrassment around mutual friends. I think there's still real danger of turning the EA into PA.
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