Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 14, 2011 Author Posted May 14, 2011 The nature of the thread strikes me as unjustified whining which is the problem itself. Unless you are talking rape--I think you are not--then all these relationships are 100% consensual. Women in the modern day and age need to take full responsibility for their relationship choices. Stop playing "victim." No, we are talking women who refuse to take responsibility for their own bad choices. Your use of the term "seduce," itself, implies that you think the woman involved is not making a conscious decision to get involved with the man. Sorry, absolutely not true in my case. There was a huge power imbalance. An affair was not even on my radar -- and I didn't have a relationship with MM - when he began deliberately doing things to let me know he wanted to cross boundaries. (And, no, I didn't.) I was the new kid on the block, eager to please and he was the guy in power, eager to use that to his advantage. When I didn't comply, he raged and threatened. Then he went on to target -- yes, target -- another equally compliant subordinate for sexual gratification. No accident. Wherever there's is a power imbalance, it is not consensual. Adult/child, teacher/student, boss/subordinate, minister/parishoner, therapist/client = power imbalance. The "top dog" is taking advantage of the power dynamic. They have more responsibility to respect boundaries due to the power imbalance, and society appears to agree that it's not consensual, because society stepped in to create laws discouraging that. No matter what the male does to attract the female's interest, it's still up to the female as to whether she pursues it. Hopefully women are smart enough to evaluate men beyond whether they seem to be superficially sexually attractive. Hopefully. But if not--that's 100% on the woman for using superficial reasons to justify getting into a relationship. O.K. After that happens the very first time, then the woman has been placed "on notice" of what she is dealing with. Once the guy has lied to the woman, the very first time, then she knows he's a liar and not to be trusted. I completely agree with what you are saying here. But life isn't always so black-and-white in reality. There can be unconscious motives on both sides. Not at all excusing this, just pointing it out. The problem is NOT that what these guys' true nature is, is not or does not rapidly become apparent. The problem is that women still want to be with them, even LONG AFTER they figure it out. If so, the woman has to accept the consequences of her choice, and not play the victim card. Yes. Agreed. When I created this thread, I actually wanted to highlight the ways in which our unhealthy, unconscious issues play into the dynamic of being targeted. Maybe the problem was in my communication. Others appeared to see my point because they replied, "I can see myself here.".... It's about bringing this into the light so we can then take full ownership. If you don't name it, you can't claim it. However, attack and judgment doesn't usually create an environment for growth. In fact, it's even not intended to. Also, what appears to be "whining" and "complaining" can often be a legitimate expression of anger, which is needed to pull oneself away from an unhealthy situation. It's a process. And, yes, some get stuck in anger. The only way a man can have consensual sex with a woman is if SHE "wants to have sex." (If it's rape then it's a crime and she should report it to the police.) Please tell me why you seem to believe that women aren't fully responsible for their consensual sexual choices? Other than your victimology religion, of course. Absolutely not true. Power can be abused to manipulate a "dependent" into gratifying personal desires. That hardly qualifies as consensual. Again, society recognizes precisely how unjust the situation is. This is why there are laws against exploiting that power to have sex with employees, there are laws against having sex with children, etc. Unfortunately, the burden of proof is still on the one with the less power in the dynamic. That's why people hesitate to "out" the top dog. Translation: "Because I am a woman, I don't have to take any responsibility for making bad relationship decisions. Including having sex with guys of poor moral character." I can find that. My personal power came when I began taking 100% responsibility, in fact. I've never met a male "sex addict" or "narcissist" who's able to have consensual sex with an unwilling female. Never. That would be rape, and therefore, non-consensual. As such it should be reported to the police for the crime that it is. (You're obviously not talking about rape, though.) IMO women are 100% responsible for who they decide to have consensual sex with. Sorry you seem to disagree, but that's the problem itself, isn't it? If these women had started out from the position that as adults, what they do is their responsibility, then they would probably have been A LOT more careful about who they got into bed with. I agree with everything you wrote under normal circumstances, but an imbalance of power does not present a normal circumstance. I'll answer your other post, Filet, later on ...Gotta run...
BB07 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Filletoffish, you seem to think all this thread is about is women blaming men for poor choices. I say..........you are very far off the mark in regards to what this thread is about. There is a ton of information here about pd's and there is also a lot of insight and self reflection into how both parties engaged.
nordic Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Tell me how it is different, please. I get the impression you think a PD is distinct from being the consequence of things learnt / experienced by the person considered to be disorderly. From different perspectives, a narcissist can be seen to be a crazy, or an abuser, a victim, a troubled person, or a wounded child. I have two major gripes with the PD model: First, it is a social construct. A woman having casual sex in Sweden is an empowered, liberated and fully accepted member of society. In Saudi Arabia, she's the devil's spawn. But she hasn't changed; the world in which she exists has changed. It's everyone else's problem. Second, it serves very little useful purpose and gives the impression of being an illness not a condition. A pathogenic illness, such as cold, is distinctly different from a fear of butterflies or sneezing when we see a cat (even if the cat is in a house, you are in a car and there's no cat hair near you). The way to change learnt behaviour is different from how to respond to a pathogen. Does that make more sense? given that i am actually from sweden, grew up there, i can perhaps kill this misconception about women and swedish culture. i live in switzerland and date women from everywhere. including american girls. i smashed up an american girls apartment about two years ago, when she, believing that my "liberal" swedish upbringing would excuse her being a complete slut, with a history that would put women far behind her. truth is, men are men everywhere. there is no mythical place up north, where men and women are sooo different from everywhere else. no man on the planet wants to be married to a slut. nowhere. sorry sluts.
nordic Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 It's about how some men who cheat,betray and exploit women are narcissistic with casanova complexes.Its pretty self explainitory if you ask me and I don't think coming into this thread with the attitude that women just need to be "relaxed" to have sex or that 'men like to have sex with women' was anything but immature considering the nature of the thread. We are talking about ANTI-SOCIALS who seduce women and use them for thier own personal gains and do it through hidden agenda's and then blaming US for trusting them at thier word while they back peddle out of things they start but have no intention of following thru with because they lack consciences. But you can be flippant all you want about the pain and humiliation that some men cause women because "they want to have sex" despite any and all rules of society.I wouldn't expect anything less from a man to be so cavalier about the reality that men break women's hearts to GET LAID at all costs to those around them because they have sex addictions and can't control thier behaviors and blame it on thier "inherant entitlements" as men(Boys will be Boys) when in reality,it's due to thier Unhealthy Narcissism. Now do you understand? Probably not.You seem slow on the uptake. no. coz you equate having sex with a woman with automatically hurting her, and that is based on your personal experience, not all other womens. did yoy ever see sex and the city. there are plenty of those women in the world. they have sex with men without feeling used afterwards. you just choose to ignore them, coz they dont fit into your view of the world.
BB07 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 no. coz you equate having sex with a woman with automatically hurting her, and that is based on your personal experience, not all other womens. did yoy ever see sex and the city. there are plenty of those women in the world. they have sex with men without feeling used afterwards. you just choose to ignore them, coz they dont fit into your view of the world. :lmao:
myname Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Nordic's posts are odd, first off he's telling us about smashing up a woman's apartment cos she's a 'slut' Next he's telling us to be more sexually liberated and relaxed about having casual sex!?
BB07 Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Nordic's posts are odd, first off he's telling us about smashing up a woman's apartment cos she's a 'slut' Next he's telling us to be more sexually liberated and relaxed about having casual sex!? Misogynist comes to mind.
myname Posted May 14, 2011 Posted May 14, 2011 Misogynist comes to mind. Could be and might even be the type of man women would do well to keep away from!
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) For Filet of Fish -- Wow. I was going to respond to your responses but it's way too exhaustive. lol. Filet of Fish, you clearly have more time on your hands than I do today. Good for you! I do object to you twisting the reality of my situation to conform to your opinions but, hey -- it's a free world. Go for it. Thank you for sharing. Edited May 15, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
nordic Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Nordic's posts are odd, first off he's telling us about smashing up a woman's apartment cos she's a 'slut' Next he's telling us to be more sexually liberated and relaxed about having casual sex!? where is the logic loophole here? do i need to be a woman to see it? a) i like sluts, and i like to have sex with them. b) i dont want to be married to one cant see any logic reason for why those two statements cant be true at the same time. given that all men i ever met in my whole life seem to pretty much like that. how many men here like their wives to be sluts? raise a hand. how many men here hate casual sex with women? raise your hands. see any hands? :-)
nordic Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Misogynist comes to mind. :-) well, if you equate that with being a man, you will not be happy woman:-)
nordic Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 For Filet of Fish -- Wow. I was going to respond to your responses but it's way too exhaustive. lol. Filet of Fish, you clearly have more time on your hands than I do today. Good for you! I do object to you twisting the reality of my situation to conform to your opinions but, hey -- it's a free world. Go for it. Thank you for sharing. it is a bit long yes:-) but he does have a point. a womans sexuality is sacred in most cultures as long as she herself treat it as such. so, in almost all cultures, women have the chance, and are encouraged, to brush off unwanted sexual approaches by anyone, no matter how much power they have. a woman can bring down a president or a prime minister. that does give women the responsibilty for who they choose to have sex with. then if they anyway end up sleeping with the top dog, what can society do about that? thats just how the female brain is wired. should we first ensure that that you have the right to say no, and then when you anyway sleep with these men, make the men to be outcasts? isnt that a bit unfair. just say no to sex with your boss and you are fine. then you are free to slut it up with the bartender or the ski instructor at your vacation instead:-)
nordic Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Could be and might even be the type of man women would do well to keep away from! some probably should:-) but they dont:-) women are complicated beings, and yet so simple.
betterdeal Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 You could be right about the massive gender bias. I mull this over from time to time. ... I'm curious about the yoga/pilate connection. Can you say more on that? Thanks again, for the reply, Trews. A few points: When you described which diagnostic your MM fitted best, it seemed like you were trying to reconcile what you experienced of him with the diagnostic criteria. I think the PD diagnostic criteria and labels are insufficient and naive leftovers from the mid 20th Century, and that your experience is a better representation of the truth than they are. Perhaps not being an American, I see this moreso than an American would because of the cultural bias in them too. Either reality is wrong or the rulebook is wrong. Given that psychologists and psychotherapists are self-selecting, originate in most part from one cultural grouping and ensure their own personal safety as a priority, their ability to walk a mile in the shoes of someone who doesn't fit in with their experience is limited, and they can and have made assumptions and mistakes. As do we all. My ex saw domestic violence as a form of foreplay. She's had sex in the toilets with a guy from the bar whilst on a first date with someone else. She sold sex. She taken heroin. She's dated the husband of a close colleague and friend of hers. Three of her exes (myself included) have reached the state that would justify intervention (involuntary hospitalisation), the first is dead after a successful suicide attempt, the second is in a forensic mental health ward, and I made a serious attempt at suicide and was voluntarily on a mental health ward last year. What occurs to me is there are common factors in all this. And no, it's not her. Rather, it is all four (her me and the other guys) of us had chaotic, harmful childhoods, all have loving families, all were self-medicating heavily, all of us tried to fit in to society whilst having deep unresolved pain and fear inside, and tried to be gender-stereotyped roles. All four of us can be described as having or having had PDs. My personal history is similar to hers with a history of harmful behaviour, intense relationships, destructive urges, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy, boundary incursions, great superficial social skills, great generosity, mercurial mood swings, and a deep rooted desire to feel at peace with oneself without a scoobie as to how to. The good that came of our involvement was we were both able to tolerate much more unhappiness than most other people, and get to the heart of our respective matters, offload a lot of our unsaid agonies on each other, and see our own part in our life experience, and so progress a lot. I doubt any psychologist or psychotherapist would have touched either of our cases effectively, because they would not want to tolerate the emotional hurricanes that came with them, had we been frank and honest with them. So either we get cast aside and live in isolation, trapped in a Catch 22, or we people with issues engage with like-minded people and learn. Personally, I believe that lacking empathy (NPD), emotional extremes (BPD), violence (ASPD) and the like are all maladaptive coping mechanisms some people have learnt as the best way they know so far as to how to deal with new threats (real or perceived) and old wounds. As for fear of abandonment, it's hard to find someone to listen to, engage with, you on a deeper level and when they go, it's terrible because you'll be in the wilderness again for possibly years. Fear of intimacy is fear of them touching and hurting the very timid and injured inner child. When I trust someone, I had no defences and would be highly suggestible. I couldn't complain effectively if something felt wrong, and I would often happily go along with what they suggested anyway. Like a very young child. She exhibited the same. It was terrifying, we both ended up feeling suicidal, but it was years of progress as well. In the past year I have had three major operations - surgery to fix the cuts on my wrists (I went about 1.5 inches deep), circumcision for phimosis, and cheilectomy for halluc limitus. Last week I had my first bout of IPL treatment for rosacea. I have in the past week recognised I have an umbilical hernia that has been there for years and will be seeing a doctor with a view to having surgery to correct that. So somehow I had laboured through life with arthritis in my toe, a foreskin too tight for my penis, and internal organs poking through my abdominal muscles, and a face getting redder from excessive blood vessels in the skin. I have been to doctors and hospital more times in the past 12 months than I have the rest of entire life about a range of ailments. Asking for help has been the most effective change I have made in my life. Given that I have arthritis in my toe, I cannot run or take part in sports that involve lots of impact on my foot. Hence I tried out yoga and pilates (there was a connection with all the above to what you asked!) and I have found that these, and self-help books, are by far and away much more popular with women than men. Despite both being pioneered by men, men don't do them in our countries. There are typically 3 men and two dozen women in the yoga classes I attend, for example. These constructive, self-improving, healthy activities are good for everyone, but some people assume men to be gay if they partake, and this gender-bias is holding back men from doing someone positive in their lives, rather than the limited range of "masculine" activities (golf, beer, fighting). Had I not decided to not give a sh*t what anyone thinks and started yoga anyway, I would probably have either festered in depression or festered in booze, again. There are difference between men and women, genuine difference, but they are more subtle and nuanced than our clumsy cultural stereotypes suggest. These trends across genders are only trends and individuals differ so greatly from the trend such that assuming you or I will be X because we are a man / woman is an inaccurate predictor of future behaviour, annoyingly limiting often, and positively harmful in many cases. Just like any other prejudice, it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. As do the PD categories.
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 Thanks again, for the reply, Trews. A few points: When you described which diagnostic your MM fitted best, it seemed like you were trying to reconcile what you experienced of him with the diagnostic criteria. I think the PD diagnostic criteria and labels are insufficient and naive leftovers from the mid 20th Century, and that your experience is a better representation of the truth than they are. Perhaps not being an American, I see this more so than an American would because of the cultural bias in them too. Either reality is wrong or the rulebook is wrong. Given that psychologists and psychotherapists are self-selecting, originate in most part from one cultural grouping and ensure their own personal safety as a priority, their ability to walk a mile in the shoes of someone who doesn't fit in with their experience is limited, and they can and have made assumptions and mistakes. As do we all. Good point. My ex saw domestic violence as a form of foreplay. She's had sex in the toilets with a guy from the bar whilst on a first date with someone else. She sold sex. She taken heroin. She's dated the husband of a close colleague and friend of hers. Three of her exes (myself included) have reached the state that would justify intervention (involuntary hospitalisation), the first is dead after a successful suicide attempt, the second is in a forensic mental health ward, and I made a serious attempt at suicide and was voluntarily on a mental health ward last year. I'm sorry to hear that, truly. That's why I post about PDs (and I acknowledge that you respectfully disagree with me on my characterization). It's not an uncommon occurrence for partners of people with extreme PD to end up attempting suicide, being placed in mental institutions, becoming ill, etc. This is precisely why more and more people, who have been similarly affected -- Melanie Tonia Evans comes to mind, who ended up being hospitalized after a 4-year relationship with an NPD -- create websites and forums for public awareness purposes. Evans' website isn't out to demonize those with PD but to merely make the pattern easily identifiable, make partners understand that the likelihood of treatment of NPD is dismal and to encourage partners take responsibility for the situation by removing oneself from it as soon as possible. I like her site because it attacks "victimhood" (something which, ironically, I've been accused of here!). Evans' site explores ways in which "victims" can address their own issues which caused them to enter into a relationship with an NPD. It's about self-empowerment rather than blaming. Which is why I always recommend it here. I'm profoundly grateful to MM because my growing awareness of his illness was the catalyst for me to explore my issues & participation with it, which is continuing. I think that was the point of my experience with him. What occurs to me is there are common factors in all this. And no, it's not her. Rather, it is all four (her me and the other guys) of us had chaotic, harmful childhoods, all have loving families, all were self-medicating heavily, all of us tried to fit in to society whilst having deep unresolved pain and fear inside, and tried to be gender-stereotyped roles. All four of us can be described as having or having had PDs. My experience, too. I disagree with the characterization of "PD," though. It's a consistent pattern for PDs to deny they have a problem at all. Many partners of PDs -- though not all-- have no problem assuming responsibility for their role in the relationship. (I have repeatedly said on this forum that I'm exploring my own role.) And you just illustrated this point indirectly by suggesting you could be characterized yourself as a "PD." I understand completely with where you're going with this, however, there's an important point to be made: No active PD would characterize him or herself as a PD. That's why I'm doubt you don't have PD. (However, it is possible for a recovering PD to identify him or herself as a PD, much as done in with recovering addicts.) I guess my point is that partners of PDs are very willing to take responsibility for their role in things, which is how they often end up with someone who cannot take responsibility. I'm not arguing the fact that people who are involved with PDs have issues to resolve -- absolutely, they do! No doubt about it! .... The reason some are able to withstand the drama of PD is because they had often had excellent childhood training with a parent PD and, as a result, formed unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with the disorder. Chaos tends to be their "normal." When meeting a PD in the future, they are unlikely to have a normal response (RUN! lol). Instead, they will feel right at home with the PD -- because it * is * home. (Not all though. I know a couple "normal" people from healthy families who had encounters with NPDs and ended up very damaged. They got out quickly, though, and recovered quickly. That seems to be the difference.) My personal history is similar to hers with a history of harmful behaviour, intense relationships, destructive urges, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy, boundary incursions, great superficial social skills, great generosity, mercurial mood swings, and a deep rooted desire to feel at peace with oneself without a scoobie as to how to. Not uncommon. The characteristics you outline don't match my experience -- and, on the surface, my life is remarkable for its long-term stability in relationships, employment and friendship -- but, like you, there have been serious underlying issues I've had to address just the same. I hear you. The good that came of our involvement was we were both able to tolerate much more unhappiness than most other people, and get to the heart of our respective matters, offload a lot of our unsaid agonies on each other, and see our own part in our life experience, and so progress a lot. I doubt any psychologist or psychotherapist would have touched either of our cases effectively, because they would not want to tolerate the emotional hurricanes that came with them, had we been frank and honest with them. So either we get cast aside and live in isolation, trapped in a Catch 22, or we people with issues engage with like-minded people and learn. How did you get to the heart of your problem without outside help? I'm fascinated. That's wonderful. For what it's worth, I don't put as much faith in therapists as my posts might suggest. I found the majority of my healing using resources outside of traditional therapy, in fact -- and still do. I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but there seems to be a bit of stigma about BPDs and NPDs in the therapeutic community. I believe our understanding of PDs is pre-1935 when compared to our understanding of addiction. As a result, BPDs and NPDs -- and I know you disagree with my characterization of PDs, so forgive me here -- are often trapped by this lack of understanding. It's tragic because the disorder is incredibly isolating, and then the frustration/stigma in the very community that should be able to heal them isolates them further. Because therapists are in the infancy of understanding how to address the challenges of the disorder, and because their ability to address it is so limited, they tend to throw up their hands and not want to work with PDs at all. It seems this is slowly changing. As it does, therapists and society's attitudes toward PDs will change, too -- just as we've seen with alcoholism. A couple of powerful therapies have popped up in the past 10 years which are creating encouraging breakthroughs for BPDs. Having said that, therapy is only one resource for healing. In my experience, it's not always the best resource. I want to add that I'm using words like "disorder"/"illness" to characterize all of this. I think it's good that alcoholism is no longer considered a sin or sign of a degenerate. It's seen as an illness. You often hear recovering alcoholics say, "We're not bad people trying to get good. We're sick people trying to get well." I'd take it a step further than that. All of us on this planet are unconscious people trying to become conscious. The challenges that serve to bring us to consciousness appear under labels such as "PD," "affairs," "alcoholism," "divorce," "bankruptcy," etc. Personally, I believe that lacking empathy (NPD), emotional extremes (BPD), violence (ASPD) and the like are all maladaptive coping mechanisms some people have learnt as the best way they know so far as to how to deal with new threats (real or perceived) and old wounds. As for fear of abandonment, it's hard to find someone to listen to, engage with, you on a deeper level and when they go, it's terrible because you'll be in the wilderness again for possibly years. Fear of intimacy is fear of them touching and hurting the very timid and injured inner child. When I trust someone, I had no defences and would be highly suggestible. I couldn't complain effectively if something felt wrong, and I would often happily go along with what they suggested anyway. Like a very young child. She exhibited the same. I understand. Beneath the defenses, that's the vulnerable truth of it. It was terrifying, we both ended up feeling suicidal, but it was years of progress as well. In the past year I have had three major operations - surgery to fix the cuts on my wrists (I went about 1.5 inches deep), circumcision for phimosis, and cheilectomy for halluc limitus. Last week I had my first bout of IPL treatment for rosacea. I have in the past week recognised I have an umbilical hernia that has been there for years and will be seeing a doctor with a view to having surgery to correct that. So somehow I had laboured through life with arthritis in my toe, a foreskin too tight for my penis, and internal organs poking through my abdominal muscles, and a face getting redder from excessive blood vessels in the skin. I have been to doctors and hospital more times in the past 12 months than I have the rest of entire life about a range of ailments. Asking for help has been the most effective change I have made in my life. Given that I have arthritis in my toe, I cannot run or take part in sports that involve lots of impact on my foot. Hence I tried out yoga and pilates (there was a connection with all the above to what you asked!) and I have found that these, and self-help books, are by far and away much more popular with women than men. Despite both being pioneered by men, men don't do them in our countries. There are typically 3 men and two dozen women in the yoga classes I attend, for example. These constructive, self-improving, healthy activities are good for everyone, but some people assume men to be gay if they partake, and this gender-bias is holding back men from doing someone positive in their lives, rather than the limited range of "masculine" activities (golf, beer, fighting). Had I not decided to not give a sh*t what anyone thinks and started yoga anyway, I would probably have either festered in depression or festered in booze, again. Thanks to people like you, you're paving the way for this to become acceptable for men in your country. Thanks to people like you in my country (U.S.), it's no longer considered a stigma to take yoga. My husband and I take classes all the time. He gets some ribbing from his buddies, but, like you, he doesn't give a sh*t. There are difference between men and women, genuine difference, but they are more subtle and nuanced than our clumsy cultural stereotypes suggest. These trends across genders are only trends and individuals differ so greatly from the trend such that assuming you or I will be X because we are a man / woman is an inaccurate predictor of future behaviour, annoyingly limiting often, and positively harmful in many cases. Just like any other prejudice, it needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. As do the PD categories. Good point. I can see that. Thanks -- I've enjoyed our conversations. I hope you feel better soon, too.
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 Since Filet of Fish brought it up, here's why I didn't file a sexual harassment claim against the MM in my situation: 1. First, the obvious: HR is not set up to protect the employees. It's set up to protect the company. The MM in my situation practically * is * the company. Yes, there is FEDERAL LAW protecting employees like me, but, still, the burden of proof is on the employee. And I'm not an idiot. 2. I deliberately decided not to file a sexual harassment claim against MM because I wanted peace, not drama, in my life. I wanted healing, not retaliation. I wanted MM to go away and leave me alone. Period. (And contrary to the many distortions & false assumptions Filet of Fish has presented about my experience, I am not jealous of the woman he targeted next. I'm sad for her. I've made that clear here on numerous occasions.) (Incidentally, my decision works for me because I don't have daily contact with MM. I don't work for him and, indeed, sometimes a week will go by before I have to see him in passing. This is deliberate. When MM approached me after hours, I immediately structured my life to do everything I could to avoid him. I changed my work hours so I don't have to risk seeing him at the elevators as everyone is leaving the day. I don't attend company functions anymore. I also never walk with 50 feet of his work area. Etc.) 3. I did seek legal and therapeutic counsel because MM's inappropriate rages terrified me last year. (Physically he towers over me.) It was a rational response to coping with irrational behavior. I didn't get counsel for the intention of attacking MM but to help me cope with a very difficult work situation. The professionals all documented my visits. I got help in setting boundaries, etc. and dealing with anxiety. MM eventually calmed down and is polite to me. All appears well. 4. The professionals argued with me last year but ultimately respected my decision to not to pursue this. However, we all agreed to keep documentation on this with the understanding that, if MM's disorder causes him to harm another co-worker --and to the extent she decides to come forward with a complaint -- I will come forward in support of that person. I will produce documentation from professionals showing that I struggled with the same issue months or years before. This will lend credibility to her own claim and cause her to be taken seriously. She won't be as easily dismissed as a whining crybaby who asked for it. Two (or more) people joined together are more likely to be taken seriously than one because the burden of proof is still on the employee. I've read instances of where multiple employees are joining together to complain. The power quickly shifts from the boss to the multiple subordinates joined in common complaint. Funny how that works. My hope is that MM will stop the pattern on his own and that no one will ever need to get involved. I'm not optimistic though. For those who are also dealing with this issue but also don't want drama -- just want the boss to leave them alone -- this might help, too: MM began threatening me after I made it clear his advances were unwelcome, so I called a national domestic hotline for support. Recognizing I didn't want the mess of a sexual harassment claim, the counselor recommended I retain private legal counsel -- the most highly esteemed lawyer in town -- and have that attorney write a letter to MM (not to the company, just MM), stating I retained counsel, didn't want to file a sexual harassment claim but that, should he continue threatening me, he was on notice that a claim would be filed. The domestic violence hotline counselor told me that this was * very * effective for women in my situation, because abusive men tend to worry about one thing only: Damage to their public "good guy" image. I never had to send the letter, but it was helpful to know.
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 No, both men and women understand exactly what you are saying. Some of them don't like the message though, so they need to pretend otherwise. They filter out that which they don't want to acknowledge. In your opinion, let's remember ... This is your assessment. Right here on this thread you've got some poor soul who was very recently in the suicide ward yet seems to nevertheless believe he has all or many of the answers. It's been my experience that people who have done soul searching via crisis do have many answers for the rest of us. There was a reason Jesus hung out with the "sinners," rather than the Pharisees -- and it's not just that they were probably lots more fun. So many people in our society (Western that is) grow up and believe that established rules of behavior exist, and were established, only for the purpose of restricting their personal freedom. They don't seem to have learned that the reason rules of behavior exist is because on the whole, they are beneficial to society and to the individual, and this is the result of a few thousand years of experience. Actually, FiletOFish, I absolutely agree with you on this. Well said.
betterdeal Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) How did you get to the heart of your problem without outside help? I'm fascinated. That's wonderful. We offloaded a lot of thoughts and feelings about past traumatic relationships onto each other. In part, we relived those relationships, but we also spoke about our experience in them. Being able to share with someone who could understand the trauma felt and not have them run away was a relief. We judged each other and it was traumatic in itself, but it was, for me, the first time I had spoken about those prior relationships and really confronted what had happened in it, my part in it, my misunderstandings and so on, and it all spurred me on to seek help form a variety of sources and to change my thoughts, feelings and lifestyle. Mind, body and soul needed caring for by me, with some help from those willing to give it. I'm glad that I have friends, family, colleagues, acquaintances like you who don't discriminate against people who attempt suicide. They value my opinion as much as anyone else's and don't make thinly veiled slurs against me. I tend to ignore people who choose to attack the messenger and not the message. It's ironic that having been certified sane by several psychiatrists some choose to imply I am not sane enough to comment. I'm officially "sane"! Edited May 15, 2011 by betterdeal
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 So, you sought advice from, but failed to follow, the specific advice given to you by at least three separate professional counseling sources, in order to properly address your MM's threatening behavior: 1. The domestic violence hotline 2. Your attorney or attorneys 3. Your personal psychological counselor ----- These choices are deliberate on your part, and unfortunately they are the wrong choices on your part. At least according to the professionals you have consulted.. Really? You think that it's so easy -- just file a claim and la-di-da? It's not. Not at all. There's often "reputation" backlash in the work community, not to mention the workplace, when you do that, so you better have lots of pictures/physical evidence before you go that route. Only then will the law will support you. Until then, it's your word against the money-maker's word. And guess who usually wins there? (It's probably why this guy is so confident while he is breaking federal law.) I have an economic livelihood to consider. And these are tough times for workers. Once I knew I wouldn't be physically harmed, that's all I wanted to consider. I consulted professionals because I was afraid MM's anger would escalate and I wanted to explore the options I had short of making this experience public. I didn't need anyone to tell me I could file a claim. I already knew that. The lawyer -- a friend and labor law specialist -- explained the legal intricacies to me. The two therapists (both men) role-acted with me to teach me how to set clear boundaries if MM's behavior escalated (instead of cowering, which I learned was inadvertently contributing to the dynamic). I did follow the therapists' advice and stood tall. MM settled down. End of drama. End of problem. I was then free to focus on what I could learn from this experience. It is not enough for you to say you will help out his next affair partner if something bad happens to her. You have a moral and ethical obligation to do what you can to pre-empt it. .. I disagree. I'm not so powerful that I can pre-empt anything. The only conclusion to be drawn from your attitude is that in some way shape or form you are still in the emotional affair and still protecting this MM from the consequences of his behavior... You seriously need to go back to your psychological counselor to figure out why you still are in love with this man, and protecting him. No, that's not the only conclusion to draw from this. It's the only conclusion you choose to draw from this. You make up a conclusion about me and present it as fact, Fillet. I suppose it's just a characteristic of being human -- we all do this to some degree. I'm clear I'm long out of an emotional affair with MM. I don't think much about him these days -- except when I come here & share my experience (which I suppose I do see as an ethical obligation since I was spared a lot of trauma by reading other people's posts here).
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 We offloaded a lot of thoughts and feelings about past traumatic relationships onto each other. In part, we relived those relationships, but we also spoke about our experience in them. Being able to share with someone who could understand the trauma felt and not have them run away was a relief. We judged each other and it was traumatic in itself, but it was, for me, the first time I had spoken about those prior relationships and really confronted what had happened in it, my part in it, my misunderstandings and so on, and it all spurred me on to seek help form a variety of sources and to change my thoughts, feelings and lifestyle. Mind, body and soul needed caring for by me, with some help from those willing to give it. It sounds like you have true intimacy in your life. You are a lucky man, though I'm sure luck wasn't entirely responsible for that. I'm glad that I have friends, family, colleagues, acquaintances like you who don't discriminate against people who attempt suicide. They value my opinion as much as anyone else's and don't make thinly veiled slurs against me. I tend to ignore people who choose to attack the messenger and not the message. It's ironic that having been certified sane by several psychiatrists some choose to imply I am not sane enough to comment. I'm officially "sane"! Better, a lot of spiritual crisis looks insane to the outside world, which, oddly enough, perceives itself to be sane. lol Spirituality is always paradoxical like that. I suppose that's why some dude said: "Blessed are the poor in spirit ..." .... I read something about Carl Jung along this line, too. When clients came into Jung's office exclaiming, "I got a new job!" or "I met the greatest girl!," he would look disinterested and even disappointed. But when clients came in to say, "My wife left me, I lost my job, and I'm about to file bankruptcy," Jung would get excited for them, exclaiming, "How marvelous!!!" He knew the transformational power of spiritual crisis..... I think Caroline Myss discusses this at length on her CD, "Spiritual Madness." Apparently all the great spiritual teachers and healers to go through spiritual crisis resembling madness ... And someone once told me that the Greek meaning for the word "crisis" is "bridge." I like that. I've very much appreciated our sharing.
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 Yes you are. When the therapists taught you how to stand up for yourself, it worked. You have made a very good point. I suppose the truth of the matter is that I am a coward and want to take the easier, softer way out of this with as little drama as possible. I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically. I'm not intending to change my position, but I appreciate your viewpoint, FiletOFish.
Author Breezy Trousers Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) Have not read all the posts, but in my experience women that like attention and admiration are not that difficult to seduce. What woman doesn't like admiration? What man doesn't like admiration? Everyone has an ego. Maybe you don't, Pierre, and if you don't, that's a wonderful thing indeed. I think it's human to like attention and admiration. Our responsibility is to control our response to it. Edited May 16, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
betterdeal Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) It sounds like you have true intimacy in your life. You are a lucky man, though I'm sure luck wasn't entirely responsible for that. Thanks and yes, luck and taking risks is how I moved on. Better, a lot of spiritual crisis looks insane to the outside world, which, oddly enough, perceives itself to be sane. lol Spirituality is always paradoxical like that. I suppose that's why some dude said: "Blessed are the poor in spirit ..." .... I read something about Carl Jung along this line, too. When clients came into Jung's office exclaiming, "I got a new job!" or "I met the greatest girl!," he would look disinterested and even disappointed. But when clients came in to say, "My wife left me, I lost my job, and I'm about to file bankruptcy," Jung would get excited for them, exclaiming, "How marvelous!!!" He knew the transformational power of spiritual crisis..... Well, quite! Being inquisitive is a pleasure I've always enjoyed and you can see it throughout history from high to low culture in all social strata. Descartes Meditations, as well as being a significant step into the modern era and the birth of science, both demonstrated great curiosity and a practical minded approach to dealing with normative authoritarians by paying token respect to their rule. I'm undecided as to whether his use of the insane man prop was also to deal with their potential interference in his well-being, or if he actually held that belief. Might read them again and ponder. I do know, however, that I don't know the name of a single scribe who laboured to copy the Bible verbatim despite the many that there were and how much energy and focus they put into their work. Present day soap operas are jam packed with crisis. If they were to be more accurate reflections of real life they'd be 8 hours of work, dinner, TV, internet, bed and little interaction outside of home and work. But our sense of curiosity and inquisitiveness is better served by dramatisation. I think Caroline Myss discusses this at length on her CD, "Spiritual Madness." Apparently all the great spiritual teachers and healers to go through spiritual crisis resembling madness ... And someone once told me that the Greek meaning for the word "crisis" is "bridge." I like that. Me too. I looked it up and it is, apparently, "a separating, power of distinguishing, decision, choice, election, judgment, dispute", so a crossing point in a metaphysical sense. I've very much appreciated our sharing. Likewise. Edited May 16, 2011 by betterdeal
betterdeal Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 I had a neighbour some time ago; nice guy, good for a laugh. I remember him explaining what carbonara was to an Italian and correcting a Frenchwoman on her French. There's something charmingly naive about such surety in the face of overwhelming odds when it's about silly things.
NSDNQ Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 I own a copy of that book. great read. 48 laws of power was much better. I've seduced a married woman or two. ruined alot of peoples chances at having something special too. I used to think of all women as something lesser. targets and tools to be used and discarded. Took me alot of pain to learn how wrong I was. I wouldnt call myself a sociopath. not in the medical sense where I am genetically incapable of feeling empathy towards other human beings. I've met a few people like that. (once you get behind the whole facade and look at what they truely are its a creepy damned thing to look at, like theres nothing behind their eyes. just completely empty inside) I was just raised in an envoirment where i was conditioned not to get attached to anyone or anything. with the exception of a few people I can turn my empathy on and off. like a light switch. the same stranger I might help carry a heavy box up stairs is the same person I could watch bleed to death and not think twice. It all depends on the needs of the situation and how I find myself approaching it. shut enough people out enough of the time and the desire for anything fufilling becomes replaced with a need for carnal things (money, sex, drugs) thats how you can always spot the difference between a pathological sociopath and a conditioned one. both will be very intelligent, smooth and skilled bullsh*t artists but those that are conditioned will always drift towards mind altering drugs or mindstates and begin a self destructive spiral after the've had the lightswitch turned off long enough. becuase its not that the part of our brain that feels empathy actually shuts off, we just cut the connection between the physical response in our brain and our consciense thoughts. this of course ****s with unconscience mind and you start to feel this pervading feeling of clostrophobia, like the walls are closing in and the room is getting smaller around you. the only release from this is the altered mindstates you get from things like gambling, bunjee jumping, drugs or alcohol. even meditation. natural sociopaths dont need any of this becuase the part of their brain that triggers empathy doesnt work. its how they naturally act and behave. they dont need altered mindstates to repress any feelings of guilt becuase those feelings are never there to repress. you literally see something empty and predatory in their eyes. if you've seen one you know what I'm talking about. and a side note for those of you that have been preyed upon. first of all my sinscerest apologies for the pain you've felt being used in the manner you have. I used to look at the partners of the women I seduced... as well the women themselves... as ****ing suckers. weak and pathetic creatures. it wasnt until I formed an attachment and got betrayed myself that I ever realized the emotional cocktails I was playing with. and allow me to give you this small peice of advice to the people that where "preyed upon" dont place all the blame on the sociopath. might sound like salt in the wound but I say this for your own personal well being. putting all of the blame on the predator means putting the RESPONSIBILTY on their shoulders. and with that responsibility comes CONTROL. if you are looking at yourself as the helpless victim in the scenario then whether you realized it or not you are letting yourself be defined by the person that used you. you where lured into betraying yourself and possibly your loved one by what that person was offering you. but the fact that the lure was fake does not make the fact that the you bit on it hook line and sinker. even if the lies i told those married woman had been true, that wouldnt change that they betrayed their husbands to get what they wanted. (something that betrays a little bit of the ugly sociopath in us all) dont run from the sense of guilt you feel. accept it. learn from it. let it change how you will act in the future. let it make you a better person. if you dont it will slowly consume your life and everone in it.
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