What Makes a Good Target for Seduction?

May 11, 2011

After seeing it referenced here, I'm reading Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction. It's a fascinating book, particularly for those of us who thought we were always immune to seduction -- Greene says we are the most susceptible of all. It's always good to learn how seducers think - or intuit -- to avoid being seduced.

Here's what I've learned so far:

1) Targeting the right person is necessary. Obviously, the best to target are those who are unhappy or who have suffered a recent misfortune. Such people will also appeal to your desire to play savior. Practically speaking, happy people are much harder to seduce.

2) Victims with great imaginations and melancholic airs are wonderful targets, too. Someone who lives in a fantasy world? Superb! Good luck trying to seduce someone lacking imagination / grounded in reality.

3) Avoid targeting people with passionate, volcanic appearances. They are often hiding insecure and self-involved natures. It can be hard to get rid of these targets later.

4) People who are reserved/quiet are great targets because they love to be drawn out of themselves.

5) Folks with lots of time on their hands are great targets, too. Busy people don't have the time to focus on you. (And, again, happy people don't have the inclination to. See #1.)

6) It's good if targets think you have something they don't. Their belief that you will provide "something" for them makes them easy to exploit. Make sure they believe they can feed on you to fulfill their perceived lack.

7) It's also good if your targets are those who feel they are lacking excitement and adventure in their lives, because seduction will always promise that. For that reason, repressed people make particularly good targets.

8) People who repress their desire for pleasure are great targets, too.

Any thoughts? Any of this sound familiar?

May 11, 2011

After seeing it referenced here, I'm reading Robert Greene's The Art of Seduction. It's a fascinating book, particularly for those of us who thought we were always immune to seduction -- Greene says we are the most susceptible of all. It's always good to learn how seducers think - or intuit -- to avoid being seduced.

Here's what I've learned so far:

1) Targeting the right person is necessary. Obviously, the best to target are those who are unhappy or who have suffered a recent misfortune. Such people will also appeal to your desire to play savior. Practically speaking, happy people are much harder to seduce.

2) Victims with great imaginations and melancholic airs are wonderful targets, too. Someone who lives in a fantasy world? Superb! Good luck trying to seduce someone lacking imagination / grounded in reality.

3) Avoid targeting people with passionate, volcanic appearances. They are often hiding insecure and self-involved natures. It can be hard to get rid of these targets later.

4) People who are reserved/quiet are great targets because they love to be drawn out of themselves.

5) Folks with lots of time on their hands are great targets, too. Busy people don't have the time to focus on you. (And, again, happy people don't have the inclination to. See #1.)

6) It's good if targets think you have something they don't. Their belief that you will provide "something" for them makes them easy to exploit. Make sure they believe they can feed on you to fulfill their perceived lack.

7) It's also good if your targets are those who feel they are lacking excitement and adventure in their lives, because seduction will always promise that. For that reason, repressed people make particularly good targets.

8) People who repress their desire for pleasure are great targets, too.

Any thoughts? Any of this sound familiar?

Good topic Breezy. I see some of former self in the examples you gave.

May 11, 2011

Of course it sounds familiar,but target is the operative word here.

And I am going to take this one step further from "Seduction" to Con Artist.

And what makes it worst is that what they target our vulnerabilites,

our ability to trust,our need to believe in the inherant good in others,

our nurturing sides and our loving and empathetic natures as women.

It doesn't help that these people can be masters of manipulation and deception and in effect,make it close to impossible to protect ourselves.

Love is only found in letting our guards down and becoming vulnerable and unless we are dealing with Pro-Social people,we are at risk.

We can only take so much personal responsibility for what others do to exploit us.But there are weaknesses in everyone and they learn what works and use it against us without conscience.

http://www.lovefraud.com/05_areYouAtarget/con_artist_prey.html

http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/spot_con_artist.html

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html

Being someone's target/victim is never the fault of the target/victim though.

It's the fault of the Confidence Artist.

I guess the fact that they are MARRIED should be the first and last RED FLAG we don't choose to ignore no matter WHAT these men tell us about thier lives!

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/what_is_sociopath.html

Sociopathy, also called psychopathy, is a personality disorder characterized by deceit on a scale most of us cannot imagine. These men and women are not crazy; they know exactly what they are doing. Here is how Robert D. Hare, Ph.D., begins his book about psychopaths, Without Conscience:

"Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."

*

In The Sociopath Next Door, Dr. Martha Stout says 4% of the population are sociopaths. That would add up to 12 million of them in the United States.

Sociopaths come from all walks of life—including well-educated, well-off families. Many sociopaths, therefore, have good social graces. They know how to dress and how to behave in polite society.

This doesn't stop them from lying, cheating and stealing. On the contrary, it makes their deceptions easier.

Why sociopaths are hard to recognize

1. They're fluent talkers (liars). Even when caught in a lie, they change their stories without skipping a beat.

2. They're totally comfortable in social situations and cool under pressure.

3. They use family or business connections to make themselves appear legitimate.

4. They often become, or pretend to be, clergy, lawyers, physicians, teachers, counselors and artists. Most of us generally assume people in these positions are trustworthy.

(Mine was my married massage therapist and it took him 2 solid years of weekly massage,to groom/seduce me out of my marriage just to back peddle his way out without accepting ANY personal or professional responsibility for what he did and left me holding the bag,broken and divorced.)

5. They're happy to exaggerate—or fabricate—credentials. Few of us check their references.

6. They will say absolutely anything—"I love you," "You can trust me," "I'll never do it again." The words, to them, mean absolutely nothing.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Heart On

May 11, 2011

I understand where this approach is coming from but post sounds terrible just because of the content. it sounds like a game plan for a predator considering you are going after "targets." Looking at people as targets is a very crude way to try to build a healthy relationship

May 11, 2011

Of course it sounds familiar,but target is the operative word here.

And I am going to take this one step further from "Seduction" to Con Artist.

And what makes it worst is that what they target our vulnerabilites,
our ability to trust,our need to believe in the inherant good in others,
our nurturing sides and our loving and empathetic natures as women.

It doesn't help that these people can be masters of manipulation and deception and in effect,make it close to impossible to protect ourselves.
Love is only found in letting our guards down and becoming vulnerable and unless we are dealing with Pro-Social people,we are at risk.

We can only take so much personal responsibility for what others do to exploit us.But there are weaknesses in everyone and they learn what works and use it against us without conscience.

http://www.lovefraud.com/05_areYouAtarget/con_artist_prey.html

http://www.lovefraud.com/02_howToSpotAcon/spot_con_artist.html

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/key_symptoms_sociopath.html

Being someone's target/victim is never the fault of the target/victim though.

It's the fault of the Confidence Artist.

I guess the fact that they are MARRIED should be the first and last RED FLAG we don't choose to ignore no matter WHAT these men tell us about thier lives!

http://www.lovefraud.com/01_whatsaSociopath/what_is_sociopath.html

Sociopathy, also called psychopathy, is a personality disorder characterized by deceit on a scale most of us cannot imagine. These men and women are not crazy; they know exactly what they are doing. Here is how Robert D. Hare, Ph.D., begins his book about psychopaths, Without Conscience:

"Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations and empty wallets. Completely lacking in conscience and feelings for others, they selfishly take what they want and do as they please, violating social norms and expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret."
*

In The Sociopath Next Door, Dr. Martha Stout says 4% of the population are sociopaths. That would add up to 12 million of them in the United States.

Sociopaths come from all walks of life—including well-educated, well-off families. Many sociopaths, therefore, have good social graces. They know how to dress and how to behave in polite society.
This doesn't stop them from lying, cheating and stealing. On the contrary, it makes their deceptions easier.

Why sociopaths are hard to recognize

1. They're fluent talkers (liars). Even when caught in a lie, they change their stories without skipping a beat.

2. They're totally comfortable in social situations and cool under pressure.

3. They use family or business connections to make themselves appear legitimate.

4. They often become, or pretend to be, clergy, lawyers, physicians, teachers, counselors and artists. Most of us generally assume people in these positions are trustworthy.

(Mine was my married massage therapist and it took him 2 solid years of weekly massage,to groom/seduce me out of my marriage just to back peddle his way out without accepting ANY personal or professional responsibility for what he did and left me holding the bag,broken and divorced.)

5. They're happy to exaggerate—or fabricate—credentials. Few of us check their references.

6. They will say absolutely anything—"I love you," "You can trust me," "I'll never do it again." The words, to them, mean absolutely nothing.

Oh my! This seems all so true. It's actually quite terrifying. Being vulnerable is not the fault of the victim.

Thanks for these posts.

May 11, 2011

I understand where this approach is coming from but post sounds terrible just because of the content. it sounds like a game plan for a predator considering you are going after "targets." Looking at people as targets is a very crude way to try to build a healthy relationship

I think the post's meant to be to help those who have been targeted before to avoid it ever again in the future, by being aware of the pattern, or 'plan of attack'. I don't think it's a suggestion of how to seduce someone.

May 11, 2011

I think the post's meant to be to help those who have been targeted before to avoid it ever again in the future, by being aware of the pattern, or 'plan of attack'. I don't think it's a suggestion of how to seduce someone.

No it is certainly not meant to give anyone any ideas on how.

Men and women like this already know how,all we can do is try to stay one step ahead of thier game.The woman who created Lovefraud.com is actually a Psychologist who already knew about red flags and sociopaths and she still got targeted and exploited by a man she married.He site was made to discuss them in the blog and warn others.

But does anyone recall the TV show the show the Pick-up Artist?

http://www.vh1.com/shows/the_pickup_artist/season_1/series.jhtml

That guy "Mystery" seemed as though he had some Sociopathic Traits

and since the whole goal seemed to be about how to get laid,instead

of how to have an actual relationship with a woman,I am glad it was cancelled!

I understand where this approach is coming from but post sounds terrible just because of the content.

What is terrible is that not many people even know these people exist.

it sounds like a game plan for a predator considering you are going after "targets." Looking at people as targets is a very crude way to try to build a healthy relationship.

If you consider that 1 in 25 people in your life is devoid of empathy and lacks conscience it might make more sense to understand they aren't looking to build healthy relationships,they are looking for people to use and lose,for sex,money,ego boosts,control and power.

Now...not all MM are in this category,but there are many many websites and forums for thier victims to learn from.

Just passing on what I have learned.

Towards the end of the idealization,devaluation and discard stage,my xMM told me that he was anti-social and wired wrong and he knew it.

He just didn't want me to inform his "innocent bystanders" of what lied behind his mask.

He scared me silent.

May 11, 2011

2) Victims with great imaginations and melancholic airs are wonderful targets, too. Someone who lives in a fantasy world? Superb! Good luck trying to seduce someone lacking imagination / grounded in reality.

3) Avoid targeting people with passionate, volcanic appearances. They are often hiding insecure and self-involved natures. It can be hard to get rid of these targets later.

Okay numbers 2 and 3 are so me. I get caught up in my head & live in fantasies instead of real life. I'm trying so hard to accept reality & be content with what I have, instead of yearning for what I don't have & chasing excitement & adventure. I think xMM is a lot like me in this regard. [i don't feel that my xMM 'targeted' me for seduction. I feel we were a lot alike with many of the same weaknesses & strengths in our personality & so we were drawn to each other like magnets. I do think at times he took advantage of me/used me & was selfish, but I don't think he purposefully set out to use me - I think it was unintentional, & that he thought he loved me.]

About number 3, it describes both xMM & me perfectly. We always used to quote that line in the song by Eminem that says 'I guess this is what happens when a tornado meets a volcano.' We both have extremely violatile, emotional, disruptive personalities & we had the tendency to set each other off. Things were either so great & high, or so low & depressing with us. I am really trying to work on balance & on healthy relationships.

I think this list is also good to describe the type of people/reasons why people get into affairs. Yeah it could be used to seduce certain types of people but I think usually these things are 'unintentional', as in, people who are lonely, insecure, selfish, etc. seem to find others like them & they seek solace in each other in the form of an affair. At least that is what I believe happened in my case.

May 12, 2011

I think the post's meant to be to help those who have been targeted before to avoid it ever again in the future, by being aware of the pattern, or 'plan of attack'. I don't think it's a suggestion of how to seduce someone.

Absolutely right. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I can see how the format would creep people out, Family Man..... I was modeling Greene's book, which adopts a similar tone.

We can only take so much personal responsibility for what others do to exploit us.But there are weaknesses in everyone and they learn what works and use it against us without conscience.

Sociopaths come from all walks of life—including well-educated, well-off families. Many sociopaths, therefore, have good social graces. They know how to dress and how to behave in polite society.
This doesn't stop them from lying, cheating and stealing. On the contrary, it makes their deceptions easier.

Why sociopaths are hard to recognize

1. They're fluent talkers (liars). Even when caught in a lie, they change their stories without skipping a beat.

2. They're totally comfortable in social situations and cool under pressure.

3. They use family or business connections to make themselves appear legitimate.

4. They often become, or pretend to be, clergy, lawyers, physicians, teachers, counselors and artists. Most of us generally assume people in these positions are trustworthy.

5. They're happy to exaggerate—or fabricate—credentials. Few of us check their references.

6. They will say absolutely anything—"I love you," "You can trust me," "I'll never do it again." The words, to them, mean absolutely nothing.

Heart On, like you, I encountered a predator in the healing arts. Marriage counselor -- many years ago. I won't go into detail here. I just want to say that it's probably hard for anyone to truly understand how it feels to enounter a sociopathic healer -- or even a sociopathic MM -- until they've actually had the experience. I had comparatively little damage, thankfully -- but damage enough. I'm truly sorry this happened to you. I can't imagine how soul rattling it must be when you encounter a healer who crosses sexual boundaries and shows the therapeutic relationship was just a ruse. It goes beyond the usual affair agonies. It's in a catastrophic category of its own.

The MM in my situation is not your "garden variety" MM. I'm not sure what he is -- high functioning borderline? narcissist? psychopath? But let me put it this way: Before my experience with him, I didn't believe in evil. My spiritual path discredits the notion of evil. That changed last year. After witnessing the -- God, how to describe it? -- soul rattling of watching MM remove his social mask and expose the rot behind it, I now believe in evil. There's a predatorial nature to these people.

The problem is that these people are brilliant at wearing social masks. No one knows the truth except the targets - the wives, the girlfriends, the subordinates.

This book cover is a good illustration:

http://www.amazon.com/Hi-Gorgeous-Melissa-Dean/dp/0981841503/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1305165286&sr=1-1

I think this list is also good to describe the type of people/reasons why people get into affairs. Yeah it could be used to seduce certain types of people but I think usually these things are 'unintentional', as in, people who are lonely, insecure, selfish, etc. seem to find others like them & they seek solace in each other in the form of an affair. At least that is what I believe happened in my case.

I agree, 26. There's a difference between a typical seduction/love affair gone awry and a pathological one. It's all about the intention. As you said, usual love affairs aren't calculated. Pathological ones are, in my opinion. Looking back, my MM was very studied / practiced in how he approached me. When I finally turned away, he very quickly groomed another target (and may have been grooming her well before).

Pathological seductions are always about control under the guise of love. Typical love affairs are just about love -- or at least the illusion of it.

I think the same dynamics apply to both garden variety love affairs and pathological affairs, though.

Good topic Breezy. I see some of former self in the examples you gave.

Yeah, BB. Me, too. I'm clear I need to fix the holes on my side of the fence.

May 12, 2011

Breezy.....You just made my decade with your post!

THANK YOU FOR GETTING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG! You understand they dynamics better than anyone

outside of Professional Exploitation forums.

Nothing worse than being the banned, blamed,

misunderstood,re-victimized,put on the defensive,

invalidated victim in these situations.

Thank you for your validation and your compassion!

I try not to project my knowledge of Sociopaths/Narcissists onto

all MM,but it's so hard not to see the similarities

once you know the underlying theme!

Sorry if I T/Jed in anyway.

I had to add my two cents with the hopes of

warning others here.

As for my part?

Betrayal Bonding/Love Addiction/Codependency came naturally to me as I was once molested by a sociopath as a child,raised by a Narcissist

and married to one.

My broken chooser was to say the least...off!

My boundaries were to say the least...weakened!

My vulnerabilies....were all too obvious to someone who targets them!

I work on that all the time hoping to avoid predators in the future.

Actually,what I have done is virtually keep myself protected

by not allowing many people into my life.

It's been lonely but safer.

I saw it all as an "affair" and protected my xMM with my life.

Turned out,I was supposed to report him to an Ethics Committee

but by the time I figured it all out,it was way past the statute of limitations to report sexual misconduct.

Not to mention,he blamed me for all as did my husband.

Both of them are out of my life now and for that....I am very lucky.

But I am left with emotional scars the likes NO one could begin to imagine.

Bottom line...I am a Survivor.

May 12, 2011

Personally I dont subscribe to this theory. Even after everything I went through I dont believe he was a con artist or that I was a victim. We simply got involved in something we shouldnt. I accept my part in bad decisions and choices made. He didnt manipulate me into making them.

I believe its the same for my ex husband. I dont think he set out to seduce his partner. I believe they met and shared a mutual attraction and a bond. He was a lot of things, but a manipulating con artist he wasnt lol. I wouldnt even call him a seducer

May 12, 2011

It always makes me a little sad that seduction is almost always thought of in its negative, devious sense. Just like a surgeon's scalpel seduction can be good in the right hands and bad in the wrong ones, being seductive is neutral in itself. Being deceitful and manipulative, reckless or malicious, and seductive, is, well, sh*t.

May 12, 2011

Personally I dont subscribe to this theory. Even after everything I went through I dont believe he was a con artist or that I was a victim. We simply got involved in something we shouldnt. I accept my part in bad decisions and choices made. He didnt manipulate me into making them.

I believe its the same for my ex husband. I dont think he set out to seduce his partner. I believe they met and shared a mutual attraction and a bond. He was a lot of things, but a manipulating con artist he wasnt lol. I wouldnt even call him a seducer

I don't think she is saying all MM are sociopaths, just that it's a possibility.

My ex was a sociopath, I think. At least, he told me he didn't feel things like normal people but that he learned how to fake the appropriate action. He was very good. Better than you could imagine. I saw behind it eventually but I'm sure only once he decided it was safe to let me. Most never would. Though sometimes the smallest thing would mean complete rage towards me, much beyond is faked. Much of my family still talks to him regularly after everything. Even with the scars. It's like, he is still so believable. He confessed on the faking emotions to me at some point. He is normally so proud about how socially strong he is. He thinks not getting caught is the name of the game, that it is the important thing - if you are smart enough to work around the system, it is your right. He said he'd been that way since he was a little boy. He got in some trouble as a little boy for far out there behaviors, I learned from his mom; but he learned and got better at it. He considers behaviors acceptable that are reprehensible and abusive.

Though I have seen what I believe is genuine emotion towards our son. His selfish needs come first sometimes (skipping visits for dates, etc) but he does seem to love him. I worry about what he will teach but I teach what I can and believe in my son; he still needs his dad.

He also really believes that anyone that hurts children is despicable, so he doesn't have complete disregard for who might be hurt.

So maybe not...

But the fact that he has said his reactions and emotions are primarily faked, even expressed wishes he could feel more, does make me think he was a sociopath.

He did cheat before. He told the woman who still believed herself to be in love with him that he would never be with her, but she stayed. I'm sure his other charms made her believe it was just words, but he believed saying that absolved him of all responsibility. When she got too needy, he played a game being meaner and meaner to see how long it would take before she broke.

I don't think "sociopath" should be tossed around though. Peopel can do very bad, even cruel, things, and not be because they are antisocial but because they are very weak at that moment.

May 12, 2011

Personally I dont subscribe to this theory. Even after everything I went through I dont believe he was a con artist or that I was a victim. We simply got involved in something we shouldnt. I accept my part in bad decisions and choices made. He didnt manipulate me into making them.

I believe its the same for my ex husband. I dont think he set out to seduce his partner. I believe they met and shared a mutual attraction and a bond. He was a lot of things, but a manipulating con artist he wasnt lol. I wouldnt even call him a seducer

I can certainly acknowledge that for you personally you weren't manipulated or led on by a con artist or a sociopath, but I hope you acknowledge that some women here were.

May 13, 2011

I don't think she is saying all MM are sociopaths, just that it's a possibility.

I don't think "sociopath" should be tossed around though. Peopel can do very bad, even cruel, things, and not be because they are antisocial but because they are very weak at that moment.

Absolutely. People can do horrendous things to others and absolutely its a possibility that some MM are.

People say mine was a narcisist and a sociopath. Im no psych though lol and I do know that although at times he may have manipulated things to suit himself, I made choices that I regret...but unfortunately I made them.

I can certainly acknowledge that for you personally you weren't manipulated or led on by a con artist or a sociopath, but I hope you acknowledge that some women here were.

Yes of course I do. I think I wrote it badly, I meant I dont feel that as bad as he was towards me, in my own particular situation he was a sociopath or even a con artist. He was a selfishan who made an artform out of lying lol for sure.

But I certainly do recognise that some are sociopaths etc. I was in a violent relationship, both pysically and emotionally abusive many years ago. I would never suggest that these kind of people dont exist.

May 13, 2011

Oh my! This seems all so true. It's actually quite terrifying. Being vulnerable is not the fault of the victim.

Leaving the keys in the ignition and the window open doesn't make stealing the car okay, but it does make it easier.

May 13, 2011

I don't see psychopaths/NPD everywhere. I've encountered two in the past 30 years -- a therapist and MM. Like HeartOn, I experienced this disorder in my immediate family, which is a well-known risk factor for getting involved with folks like this. I'm now very conscious of the dynamics and think it's unlikely this would happen again.

I don't believe all love affairs are due to seduction. However, some are. If there's a power imbalance in an affair -- boss/subordinate, therapist/client, teacher/student -- a seduction could be involved, whether it's conscious or not. That's why I posted.

Sometimes you need perspective -- time, distance -- to see things clearly.

I would not have seen this in 2008, when my situation began. No way.

I was hot to trot. I thought MM was awesome and we could be falling in love.

Breezy.....You just made my decade with your post!

THANK YOU FOR GETTING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG! You understand they dynamics better than anyone
outside of Professional Exploitation forums.

((Heart On))... Only because I went through it myself. It's been a long time, so I'm very detached about it now, but I wasn't detached at the time. It was very painful.

Yeah, people thought I was crazy, too -- until the truth came out. Then it was like, "How did you know?" .... I've had a few experiences where I've sensed something's "off" about someone long before everyone else does. My problem is I trust other people's perceptions more than my own. This was one of those occasions. I knew he was "off" within 5 minutes of meeting him and even asked him what his racket was... But loved ones chastised me for acting paranoid and unfair. It turned out that this guy not only faked his degrees, but he also was kicked out of an organization for stalking!

Ironically, the counselor we saw immediately after firing him was the one who told us this. During our first meeting, the therapist asked why we fired him. I told her I always felt "a little creepy" around this guy. I didn't go into other details (and I won't here, either). Then my husband told her he noticed the same therapist was getting turned on when I discussed a childhood sexual abuse issue (which is what made my husband finally take me seriously). The therapist asked us his name. When we told her, she quit writing, looked up and stared for a long time. She told us she knew the therapist. He had been stalking a couple women in an organization they were in together. He was seen as a threat and kicked out.

I told a professional board in D.C. They were nice but told me that therapists have all the power and that it's a long road. The Secretary of the State didn't have the same view, though. They were annoyed that he was claiming to be licensed when he wasn't.

In the end, I got into lots of healing work that turned me around. I now see this guy as a wacky blessing in my life. But I still think he's a sociopath. It still infuriates me when people dismiss those violated by professionals as "hysterics." I guess it's hard to have understanding for something you've never experienced.

I try not to project my knowledge of Sociopaths/Narcissists onto all MM,but it's so hard not to see the similarities once you know the underlying theme!

Same here. Pathology isn't too far from "normal," just very amplified.

Because infidelity is such a marker for personality disorders, I have to remind myself that affairs are also a marker for just being human!

Betrayal Bonding/Love Addiction/Codependency came naturally to me as I was once molested by a sociopath as a child,raised by a Narcissist and married to one.!

No wonder this happened to you! Not trying to be glib here. Are you familiar with Melanie Tonia Evans? She talks about these patterns. I've found her to be very helpful. I'm addressing on some codependency patterns now, thanks to her. I DO NOT blame myself for being in these situations. However, I definitely see how my unconscious tendency to be compliant, people please and defer to authority made me more vulnerable than others. I'm taking responsibility for that now.

I saw it all as an "affair" and protected my xMM with my life. Turned out,I was supposed to report him to an Ethics Committee but by the time I figured it all out,it was way past the statute of limitations to report sexual misconduct.

You were spared, HeartOn. Trust me - these organizations only protect themselves, not the patients. I learned from experience. However, I quickly decided to let it go and focus on my healing. My anger was tearing me up inside. Now I am grateful to this wacky therapist, because he was the catalyst for profound changes, just as MM has recently been for me. I didn't have an affair with either, though. I might feel very differently if I had.

May 13, 2011

I can certainly acknowledge that for you personally you weren't manipulated or led on by a con artist or a sociopath, but I hope you acknowledge that some women here were.

Well said.

May 13, 2011

I think I've mentioned it a few times here but I dated this guy for about 3 years in between my 1st and 2nd go around with xmm and from what I've learned here and other places, I think he was NPD. Of course I'm not qualified to diagnose but he certainly had most of the traits. He certainly caused me a lot of grief in our time together and has caused me a lot at different times since. He was emotionally abusive and very jealous and controlling. So..........my man picker (as fog used to say) is broken.

I've done a lot of things wrong since all the trauma of last summer (finding out about xmm lies) but at least I've had the good sense to not involve myself with someone else until I find a better me and a better place. I must confess it's probably the 1st time in my life that I haven't jumped back into another relationship too quickly.

BTW..........FOG (Fields of Gold) hasn't been here on LS in quite a while, I miss her and hope that she is doing well. Such a sweetheart who had survived some terrible experiences in her life. So FOG........if you happen to check it. I hope you are doing well!

May 13, 2011

Would you say you exhibited many of the traits of a disorderly personality yourself, BB07?

May 13, 2011

Would you say you exhibited many of the traits of a disorderly personality yourself, BB07?

Our society has an sad tendency to pathologize targets who find themselves in relationships with pathologicals.

There's lot of public information on NPD these days. NPDs target folks who test much higher than average in empathy, loyalty, etc. They aren't attracted to divas. Unfortunately, women are conditioned to be empathetic, loyal, etc. Unfortunate in that they are more likely to have those wonderful qualities used against them by NPDs.

I didn't get involved with my NPD/MM. But guess what? He found someone very similar to me -- people-pleasing, compliant, etc. No accident.

Sandra Brown's "Women Who Love Psychopaths" is an excellent book on this very topic.

May 13, 2011

To add to what I just posted:

http://narcissism-support.blogspot.com/2009/01/pathologizing-victim-codependency-facts.html

May 13, 2011

Sound like my MM is a super easy target, with the exception of being quiet and reserved

May 13, 2011

Our society has an sad tendency to pathologize targets who find themselves in relationships with pathologicals.

There's lot of public information on NPD these days. NPDs target folks who test much higher than average in empathy, loyalty, etc. They aren't attracted to divas. Unfortunately, women are conditioned to be empathetic, loyal, etc. Unfortunate in that they are more likely to have those wonderful qualities used against them by NPDs.

I didn't get involved with my NPD/MM. But guess what? He found someone very similar to me -- people-pleasing, compliant, etc. No accident.

Sandra Brown's "Women Who Love Psychopaths" is an excellent book on this very topic.

It has a tendency to pathologize people full stop. It's maybe easy to say "he's NPD" or "she's BPD" and take that as meaning they're born that way and cannot be changed. Not fully human; sub-human you could say. You see where this is going?

If you meet the criteria, what else is there to diagnose you as fitting the label?

May 13, 2011

Would you say you exhibited many of the traits of a disorderly personality yourself, BB07?

Our society has an sad tendency to pathologize targets who find themselves in relationships with pathologicals.

Not to mention,blameshifting all onto thier victims as it's a way to consider themselves less vunlerable as though they would know better and be able to spot one a mile away.

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=4]http://loveaddicts.org/kindsofloveaddicts.html[/sIZE][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][sIZE=4]Narcissistic Love Addicts: NLAs use dominance, seduction and withholding to control their partners. Unlike codependents, who accept a lot of discomfort, narcissists won’t put up with anything that interferes with their happiness. They are self-absorbed and their low self-esteem is masked by their grandiosity. Furthermore, rather than seeming to obsess about the relationship, NLAs appear aloof and unconcerned. They do not appear to be addicted at all. Rarely do you even know that NLAs are hooked until you try to leave them. Then they will no longer be aloof and uncaring. They will panic and use anything at their disposal to hold on to the relationship—including violence. Many professionals have rejected the idea that narcissists can be love addicts. This may be because they rarely come in for treatment. However, if you have ever seen how some narcissists react to perceived or real abandonment, you will see that they are indeed “hooked.”[/sIZE][/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial][sIZE=4]Narcissists and Codependents: It is very common for love addicts to end up in relationships with other love addicts. The most common kind of love-addicted couple is, as you might have guessed, the codependent and the narcissist. In the beginning, narcissists are often seductive. After they have hooked their codependent partners, however, they change.[/sIZE][/FONT]

Pathology isn't too far from "normal," just very amplified.
Because infidelity is such a marker for personality disorders, I have to remind myself that affairs are also a marker for just being human!

That's debatable.

No wonder this happened to you! Not trying to be glib here. Are you familiar with Melanie Tonia Evans? She talks about these patterns. I've found her to be very helpful. I'm addressing on some codependency patterns now, thanks to her. I DO NOT blame myself for being in these situations. However, I definitely see how my unconscious tendency to be compliant, people please and defer to authority made me more vulnerable than others. I'm taking responsibility for that now.

Me too and believe me when I say,if not for ME and ME alone taking 100% personal responsibility for ALL in both my M and with XMMprofessional....No one would have.I was left holding the bag.Narcissist NEVER take personal responsibility for anything they do.

The worst part was after the fact,I found out that he as a professional was 100% responsible for having Professional Ethics and following the Standards of Practice within his profession.

Have you ever seen this place?

http://www.advocateweb.org/

I belonged there long ago.At the time I joined,I was so caught up in NOT considering myself a victim and taking ALL blame and shame onto my own shoulders as he refused to admit to me or anyone that he had hurt me beyond words with his games,I wound up banned for reminding the women there that "no one had a gun to thier heads" and that they had choices.

Alot of them were mortified and told me I sounded like thier predator.

They ganged up on me,made me feel as though I was taking on WAY too much responsibility for being a victim and ultimately....shunned and banned me.I was lost to say the least.But the whole time,I was protecting HIM.Losing my marriage,sanity,hope and mind he was off living "life as planned" with his blissfully ignorant wife,still giving massages and pathologically omitting all to himself.

It was AWFUL.So I couldn't find support in OW forums or ProExploit Forums and wound up defending myself everywhere I went as NO ONE knew what the hell a Narcissist was,let alone that they are prone to enter "helping Professions" as that's where most of the vulnerable women are!

In the end,the fact that we were both married at the time of his grooming and my falling in love,didn't matter in the least.What mattered was that he was USING his position of power to rope me in emotionally speaking,keep me spending my money on his Charms and Lies and allowing me to take the fall for him alone in my marriage.It was SICK and there was no other way to comprehend his actions and choices but to seek out definitions that made all the sense in the world to me.

That's when I ran across this site and others.

He had at least 90% of all these traits and my attitude is

if it looks like a duck,quacks like a duck...it's a damn duck!

I don't need to be a professional to see the reality of someone like this.

The fact that he was using a client to boost his ego,taking my money and leading me on to nowhere and lying to his wife and ignoring the RULES of his marriage and his profession said to me...in the aftermath of course...

This man has some SERIOUS issues and I played right into them thanks to my ability to project my trustworthiness onto others.He not only used me for money and sex,he used me to protect his image so he didn't lost a thing.Least of all his marriage or massage license.

Anger? Nah....I turned it inward and became clinically depressed.

What did he care? How could he can...he was devoid of empathy and saw no problem blaming ME for coming to HIM.

So typical of a N-Professional to say and do.

http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/characteristics.html

Leaving the keys in the ignition and the window open doesn't make stealing the car okay, but it does make it easier.

I used to take offense to this mentality,but I know that it simply an attempt to make someone feel less vulnerable to being a targeted victim of some unknown Sociopath.

There is no WAY to know sometimes,when you are dealing with these people.He SEEMED so damn sincere.He really did.I felt like an abject fool when I realized his game and hidden agenda's.

Sincerity and charm are two very different animals and since I am a VERY honest person,why would I assume he was full of Sh*t from day one?

Ugg....he got away with it all and has the opportunity to continue on his Narcissitic way undetected thanks to me and my FEAR of him.

He has 100's of followers who have no clue what he is capable of so I know I am far from the only easily decieved,taken,and discarded moron in his life.

To some....."I love you" is the only way they can hook a woman into having sex with them and they USE our love for them to complete the cycle of abuse and exploitation.

I am sorry that I know all this and I am also sorry that you found out the hard way Breezy,that these people exist.

I am glad I am not like the typical person...as ignorance to this is NOT bliss...it's simply an invitation for pain.

heart ON...despite it all.

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