Deanster Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Hi all... married 16 years, together almost 20. Kids 11/8 years old. My W has always been prone to 'harsh tones', or 'yelling', depending on how you view it. She's an overall good and caring person, but just doesn't speak to others very nicely much of the time. In particular, to me. A couple times a week, I end up asking her to stop yelling at me, which then devolves into a whole rant on her part about how all I care about is her tone, and not the content of what she's trying to say. We've done a lot of MC in the last year, and the counselor goes back and forth that a) she's really harsh, and b) I let it get to me. Tonight, after a somewhat fraught discussion on other matters, my wife got upset after she tried to put the hot tub cover down, and it wouldn't go, so I said 'you need to release the latch', and she said 'I didn't know the latch was engaged, I thought this thing was holding it up.'. I said 'yes, that's holding up that side, but the latch is holding up the other side.' Then she starts yelling at me about how I'm making her wrong, and just going off about how I always do this, etc. I said 'Please, stop yelling at me'... and she just kept yelling - raised voice, harsh tone, accusations. So I said it again 'Please, stop yelling at me'. and she didn't. So I went inside without another word. She came in, and launched into a whole thing about how all I care about is her tone, that I can't expect her to be emotionally 'flat' 100%, and that it would kill her to live that way. I don't think that's what I'm asking, at all. I feel like there's a LOT of space between 'Please don't yell at me', and 'You're never allowed to have feelings, and I don't care about anything you say that's in anything other than a perfectly friendly and breezy tone.' Your thoughts? Am I the hyper-sensitive wuss she claims, who can't hear anything in a less-than-dulcet tone? Or is it 'reasonable' for me to be upset that she's willing to go to the mat to fight for the right to yell at me whenever she's so inclined?
Datura Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 A different counselor is in order, among other things. She is blowing stuff way out of proportion; you try to explain what's going on with the hot tub so she doesn't keep struggling with it, and somehow she takes offense. She came in, and launched into a whole thing about how all I care about is her tone, that I can't expect her to be emotionally 'flat' 100%, and that it would kill her to live that way. Oh good, a black and white, all or nothing thinker. Does she really call you a hypersensitive wuss? She clearly does not respect you. Have you discussed why this bothers you, and asked her (delicately, of course) why the need to yell?
TaraMaiden Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Your counsellor's a jerk. How about - "When did this yelling and harsh-speak originate? Why is she defensive?" She complains that all you focus on is her tone and manner, and you don't focus on what she's saying. You may not see this as being fact, but this is the issue she has. And it hurts her. This is a desire to be heard and literally a cry for help. She feels she's unaccepted and needs to be validated. Get to the nub of the problem. Find the source. Her yelling and harsh words, are not the issue. The issue is WHY does she feel she needs to do this?
Author Deanster Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 To some extent, it's just how she communicates. She's from Philly, and is generally more pushy and abrasive than our West Coast lifestyle supports. I'm pretty used to that. Her other big thing is that I 'choose to interpret' her words and actions as harsh or yelling. That if I were more-flexible about it, it wouldn't be such a big deal. I feel like I'm remarkably flexible, and don't say anything until she's waaaay over any reasonable 'line'. She's a pretty high-anxiety person, and tends to take even minor things pretty personally, and then has a hard time moderating once she's upset. Unfortunately, I sometimes tend to tune her out, as there's a lot of anxious 'thrashing'. I actually think I'm considerably more vulnerable to accusations that I'm a little unresponsive than to being hypersensitive and over-reactive. I tend to feel like she pushes and pushes and pushes until I react, and then declares that I'm over-reacting unreasonably. Very frustrating.
TaraMaiden Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Ok, I'll say it again: She. Needs. help. She feels invalidated and not listened to. There is a protest in her covered by this externalising and projecting, and she needs to get to the bottom of it. This isn't about you. It's about her.
xxoo Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 I don't think it is ok for her to yell AT you. But I do think it is ok for her to get loud and let it out sometimes if she is frustrated, or overwhelmed, or angry. Instead of focusing on her volume ("please stop yelling at me"), can you focus on her content? I'm ok with loud, but not ok with accusations or the "you always" and "you never" stuff. What if she got loud with stuff like "I'm frustrated! I hate this flippin' thing! I want to scream!" Would you find that as harsh?
Green Light Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Hi all... married 16 years, together almost 20. Kids 11/8 years old. My W has always been prone to 'harsh tones', or 'yelling', depending on how you view it. She's an overall good and caring person, but just doesn't speak to others very nicely much of the time. In particular, to me. A couple times a week, I end up asking her to stop yelling at me, which then devolves into a whole rant on her part about how all I care about is her tone, and not the content of what she's trying to say. We've done a lot of MC in the last year, and the counselor goes back and forth that a) she's really harsh, and b) I let it get to me. Tonight, after a somewhat fraught discussion on other matters, my wife got upset after she tried to put the hot tub cover down, and it wouldn't go, so I said 'you need to release the latch', and she said 'I didn't know the latch was engaged, I thought this thing was holding it up.'. I said 'yes, that's holding up that side, but the latch is holding up the other side.' Then she starts yelling at me about how I'm making her wrong, and just going off about how I always do this, etc. I said 'Please, stop yelling at me'... and she just kept yelling - raised voice, harsh tone, accusations. So I said it again 'Please, stop yelling at me'. and she didn't. So I went inside without another word. She came in, and launched into a whole thing about how all I care about is her tone, that I can't expect her to be emotionally 'flat' 100%, and that it would kill her to live that way. I don't think that's what I'm asking, at all. I feel like there's a LOT of space between 'Please don't yell at me', and 'You're never allowed to have feelings, and I don't care about anything you say that's in anything other than a perfectly friendly and breezy tone.' Your thoughts? Am I the hyper-sensitive wuss she claims, who can't hear anything in a less-than-dulcet tone? Or is it 'reasonable' for me to be upset that she's willing to go to the mat to fight for the right to yell at me whenever she's so inclined? What is really happening is that she is taking out her stress and anger on you. You have become the punching bag. I went through this same thing with my wife and I found that the only thing that helped was to yell back at her and louder. Now she has toned it down because she knows that I'm not just going to sit there and take it. Look, there are some people who are just angry. It's their nature. It's how they communicate. They don't understand a "nice" request like "please don't yell at me."
whichwayisup Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 What is really happening is that she is taking out her stress and anger on you. You have become the punching bag. I went through this same thing with my wife and I found that the only thing that helped was to yell back at her and louder. Now she has toned it down because she knows that I'm not just going to sit there and take it. Look, there are some people who are just angry. It's their nature. It's how they communicate. They don't understand a "nice" request like "please don't yell at me." I agree. And, she needs to tone it down and learn how to communicate without yelling, talking loud and with a tone. That's just being a bitch when she does that, even more so when you ask her to stop. Find another marriage counsellor, this one isn't the right one for you two.. You are shutting down and not listening to her because of the yelling. You feel picked on and nitpicked. Try this for the next week. Instead of yelling, ask her to write down her thoughts to you in a letter. See if that helps. And, you do the same since it's obvious she isn't "hearing" you either.
UnsureinSeattle Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 I didn't think anyone ever could possibly have a problem with "Please stop yelling at me." These words have a moneylender's exactitude. They mean "please stop yelling at me." You've done nothing wrong, and it sounds like she needs help. You don't deserve to be a punching bag.
Author Deanster Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 Thanks all. xxoo - I don't object to her yelling at 'things', or experiencing frustration. That's human, and we all do it. I in fact don't have a fundamental problem with her frustration and upset, but I really feel like there needs to be some way for me to say 'enough', and ask her to back off a little. Green Light - I've tried the 'counter-escalation' tactic, as you suggest, and it's modestly effective. It keeps things from getting too out of control, but a) there's an entire level of 'yelling' that feels to me like it's very harsh and unpleasant, but to her fees like 'focused conversation' (even though she agrees that it's 'firm, harsh, loud, rude, pointed, and unpleasant for the recipient', when challenged on it), and b) for me to counter-escalate puts me in a very harsh and angry place, which isn't good for me, or for our relationship. She's more comfortable with that zone than I am, by far, and it's just too hard on me to maintain. whichwayisup - I agree with the 'punching bag' thesis. I try to not be in a place of blaming, or self-righteousness about it, but it sure feels abusive to me. Unsure in Seattle - Hi, neighbor! thanks for your thoughts. I too feel like this is an unequivocal and fundamental request that doesn't leave much room for ambiguity or equivocation. My struggle is that I basically feel like anyone who can't respond to 'Please stop yelling at me' with some respect and gentleness is... really not a very nice person. Hard to accept that about my wife, but maybe I just need to get real and stop making excuses for her. Anyone else have thoughts? I'm really struggling here.
Author Deanster Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 yeah, I'll give that a shot. Let you know how it goes.
Jackshadow Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 Hi all... Irony upon ironies, I have been on both sides of this fence before. My ex-wife was, well, to put it delicately, a nightmare. When her father asked me if I knew what I was getting into, I should have gotten a clue or three. Nasty tone, insults, condescension, alone or in front of friends and family, the works. It took a very good friend of mine to ask me, "Would you really put up with anyone else talking to you like that?" Nope...and after failed councilling sessions, we were done. The woman I am married to now says this to *me* sometimes. I grew up in a vicious family environment, and to be blunt, I sometimes don't fight fair. Even when I'm being pleasant, I have a sarcastic streak a mile wide. She, by contrast, only heard raised voices during very infrequent arguments between her parents, so she's sensitive to that. Point is, you probably have a communication problem between the two of you. Sounds like she's not even hearing her tone at all (like I am, but getting better at) and you are picking up nuance that isn't directed at you necessarily, and taking it to heart. Tough deal, but a good therapist trained in communication techniques may help out. The exercises they make you do seem silly, but you'd be surprised at what both of you may be hearing and understanding...
Zapbasket Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 I like what Jackshadow said. I used to be a bit of a "yeller" and I think I managed to turn that around when I decided, for myself, that I wasn't going to tolerate that from myself anymore. I realized that I yelled when I felt I'd tried to make my feelings known in calmer ways and failed to be heard. I realized that yelling was hardly going to get a stubborn person to finally listen and get my point; it was going to make him want to either 1) get away from me or 2) say anything in the moment to get me to stop yelling...which is different from actually understanding the content of what I am saying. I've slipped a few times in my most recent relationship, when my frustration has reached a breaking point and I feel no matter how hard I try, he just doesn't seem to care about my feelings. Yelling is sometimes a communication problem, as in, "Growing up I always heard people yell to resolve conflict," or, "I end up yelling because I feel so unheard in my relationship." But it can also be an expression of a general lack of respect for the recipient, either due to actions on the recipient's part, or falling out of love. My first boyfriend I loved but I realize years later that I had contempt for him for how avoidant he was towards ANY issues we had. Non-communication is a trait I cannot condone nor respect, and I yelled at him partly out of desperation and a sense of loneliness in the relationship, and partly out of irritation and contempt for his inability, at nearly 30 years old, to communicate. He broke up with me at the height of our difficulties; we never went to counseling together though I thought that should be our next step. Yet now I honestly think that not only would we have had to work on how each of us communicated with each other, we would have had to do that while also dealing with my fundamental contempt for communication ineptness. So, my boyfriend would not have been in a very nurturing environment to try to communicate better, and it was right of him to end our relationship. I'm saying: to address the yelling, you might have to address more than communication styles but rather deep-seated feelings you have for each other. There has to be an underlying (if temporarily hidden) acceptance of who each other fundamentally is for any work on communication to, well, work. You are right to be as frustrated with the yelling as you are. It happens from time to time in even the best relationships, but as a regular thing it simply must stop. The no-tolerance policy needs to be adopted on BOTH sides.
Star Gazer Posted May 13, 2011 Posted May 13, 2011 This is a really GREAT post: I like what Jackshadow said. I used to be a bit of a "yeller" and I think I managed to turn that around when I decided, for myself, that I wasn't going to tolerate that from myself anymore. I realized that I yelled when I felt I'd tried to make my feelings known in calmer ways and failed to be heard. I realized that yelling was hardly going to get a stubborn person to finally listen and get my point; it was going to make him want to either 1) get away from me or 2) say anything in the moment to get me to stop yelling...which is different from actually understanding the content of what I am saying. I've slipped a few times in my most recent relationship, when my frustration has reached a breaking point and I feel no matter how hard I try, he just doesn't seem to care about my feelings. Yelling is sometimes a communication problem, as in, "Growing up I always heard people yell to resolve conflict," or, "I end up yelling because I feel so unheard in my relationship." But it can also be an expression of a general lack of respect for the recipient, either due to actions on the recipient's part, or falling out of love. My first boyfriend I loved but I realize years later that I had contempt for him for how avoidant he was towards ANY issues we had. Non-communication is a trait I cannot condone nor respect, and I yelled at him partly out of desperation and a sense of loneliness in the relationship, and partly out of irritation and contempt for his inability, at nearly 30 years old, to communicate. He broke up with me at the height of our difficulties; we never went to counseling together though I thought that should be our next step. Yet now I honestly think that not only would we have had to work on how each of us communicated with each other, we would have had to do that while also dealing with my fundamental contempt for communication ineptness. So, my boyfriend would not have been in a very nurturing environment to try to communicate better, and it was right of him to end our relationship. I'm saying: to address the yelling, you might have to address more than communication styles but rather deep-seated feelings you have for each other. There has to be an underlying (if temporarily hidden) acceptance of who each other fundamentally is for any work on communication to, well, work. You are right to be as frustrated with the yelling as you are. It happens from time to time in even the best relationships, but as a regular thing it simply must stop. The no-tolerance policy needs to be adopted on BOTH sides.
crazycatlady Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 At times in my relationship with my husband I would have described myself as you describe your wife. I hated that part of me which made me all the more defensive about it when confronted over it. However part of the reason why I was that way was because I felt unheard. Everything Taramaiden said was exactly how I felt. We were in a catch 22. I yelled, he shut down, so I yelled louder so he shut down even more. I was so focused on my hurt feelings of not being heard and he so so focused on my harpy attitude that neither of us could hear the other. I tried addressing it with letters written to him, but all i would get back from him was "well that's how you feel" which wasn't what I wanted. I wanted a conversation, I wanted to see he understood where I was coming from...and I wanted his feelings in return. I wanted him to tell me how I was making him feel back. And so I really didn't feel he was "hearing" me. Because surely if he were hearing me, he would say something. He "slapped" me with reality and said if I didn't stop speaking to him like I was, he would send me home and we would seperate. That woke me up to my tone and I spent the next 8 months trying to change how I spoke to him. However, he didn't make the changes in his listening to me. So I "slapped" him, and said if he didn't start listening to me, I was going to leave. it took another year, but we were finally able to get to where I could talk and he would listen. Really really listen and hear what I was saying. We still struggle with it. I still tend to want to yell when I am feeling unheard. Now a days we get on the computers and chat over IM when I am that upset. Its not perfect. He's still too....male I suppose to understand what I want. I try not to get all harpy on a regular basis and he does try to be more what I am needing. And we both try to be more accepting when we fail at what each other needs. Really listen to what she is saying. Not the how, but the what. And give her the validation she is crying out for. Acknowledge the emotions, and fear, the frustrations.
John Michael Kane Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 I don't know why do you put up with a woman who runs her mouth like that. Is it because you're used to people treating you that type of way? I think you should drop her. You don't have to take all that abuse because she's your wife. She needs to shut her trap sometimes and respect you. Maybe it's time for you to leave. Let her find some other man to abuse. If you plan on staying though, I suggest you get big with her sometimes to let her know she needs to shut her trap.
Recommended Posts