nyrias Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 We are getting off base here. Sure there will be instances where disclosure would be detrimental to the partner who is unstable mentally. There has to be wise judgment in such cases. We are not talking about that here. Cases of infidelity I have dealt with have been cured by full disclosure. It gives the betrayed partner the right to make a decision to stay or go. You seem to forget that the betrayer made a conscious decision to betray. It is selfish and self centered to do such a thng to one you claim to love. You can quote me literature all day long, but I am going on my experience and the success of it. If you do not want to disclose..that is your right. You will suffer for it one way or the other. I tell those I council that if we are going to get to the bottom of this, everything must be on the table. We can't rebuild a house without all the material. infidelity breaks down trust and security. The only way to really get those walls built back up is with openness and honesty. After all it was the deceit that the infidelity thrived on in the first place. There are thousands of cases of infidelity and they are being discovered every day by the betrayed one. Either by disclosure or by the betrayed finding out themselves. The latter is the most common and causes a big rift for reconciliation. Because the betrayer would have still been deceitful if never caught. You have already hurt the betrayed one. that happened the moment you decided to cheat. They are just not aware of the hurt yet because of the deceptiveness. Those who choose to be deceptive have no excuse except selfishness. This does not go by how I "feel". It goes by what I have seen. You are right. This is a distraction of the original thread so i started a new one for the discussion. Couple of points. I am shocked about your attitude towards science & research. There is a reason science exists. Personally experience is often NOT optimal for decision-making because a) you don't have enough data, and b) individuals are prone to biases. In fact, there is this famous "confirmation bias" (you can look it up .. well documented phenomenon) that says people tends on focus on evidence only support their view point. Thus, science is essential to tell facts from fiction. Statistics is a lot more accurate than someone says "my experiences indicates ..." I am sure you have your share of successful but without some documentation, i am not sure a) you are better than the average, and b) disclosure always "work" in every single case. And from what i have read so far, while disclosure is generally viewed as positive in the literature, there are exceptions (Spring 1996) and even for the studies that identify disclosure as positive, there are qualifiers, and conditions (some i already discussed in the other thread). Here are some others. http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a784091859 (BTW, this is a statistical study of 82 couples) And I quote: "Initial disclosure usually is most conducive to healing the relationship in the long run when it includes all the major elements of the acting-out behaviors but avoids the “gory details.” - Thus, disclosure is good .. but not the disclosure of EVERYTHING (excluding "gory details"). Second quote ... "Neither disclosure nor threats to leave prevented relapse" Another issue i found disturbing is that from what you write, you are taking the side of the BS, and NOT necessarily who come to you for counseling. While morally, i would agree that cheating is wrong, a counselor's first duty is to those whom he/she counsels. This is not unlike defense attorneys who have a duty to best represent his/her client, even though he may find what his client has done reprehensible. That is, a counselor needs to be professional and objective, instead of giving advice that always benefit the BS (assuming WS is the client) psychologically, legally and may be even financially. Of course you should do that when (and only when) the BS is your client. I am not against disclosure in general, and i admit to see the value of it in many circumstances. However, a one-size-fit-all approach, no matter what the circumstances may be, is intellectually dishonest for me.
Spark1111 Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 Did not follow the original thread, however, I am appalled at the counselors we went to who admonished "me" to get over it and forgive, and who told me not to request all the gory details. So i was allowed to stumble over one omission after another and the pain that caused me was unbearable. It set our recovery squarely back to zero each and everytime. I think the BS needs to know as much or as little as they desire. It will be different for everyone. Mostly, what we need to see is a WILLINGNESS on the part of the WS to answer any and all questions with courage and honesty. When we do not, we think they are self=protecting, protecting their AP, protecting their affair memories, protecting their asses once again. If they think, counselors, that this is the way to restore trust after the devastation of infidelity, they are so sadly mistaken.
SoulStorm Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 You are right. This is a distraction of the original thread so i started a new one for the discussion. Couple of points. I am shocked about your attitude towards science & research. There is a reason science exists. Personally experience is often NOT optimal for decision-making because a) you don't have enough data, and b) individuals are prone to biases. In fact, there is this famous "confirmation bias" (you can look it up .. well documented phenomenon) that says people tends on focus on evidence only support their view point. Thus, science is essential to tell facts from fiction. Statistics is a lot more accurate than someone says "my experiences indicates ..." I am sure you have your share of successful but without some documentation, i am not sure a) you are better than the average, and b) disclosure always "work" in every single case. And from what i have read so far, while disclosure is generally viewed as positive in the literature, there are exceptions (Spring 1996) and even for the studies that identify disclosure as positive, there are qualifiers, and conditions (some i already discussed in the other thread). Here are some others. http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a784091859 (BTW, this is a statistical study of 82 couples) And I quote: "Initial disclosure usually is most conducive to healing the relationship in the long run when it includes all the major elements of the acting-out behaviors but avoids the “gory details.” - Thus, disclosure is good .. but not the disclosure of EVERYTHING (excluding "gory details"). Second quote ... "Neither disclosure nor threats to leave prevented relapse" Another issue i found disturbing is that from what you write, you are taking the side of the BS, and NOT necessarily who come to you for counseling. While morally, i would agree that cheating is wrong, a counselor's first duty is to those whom he/she counsels. This is not unlike defense attorneys who have a duty to best represent his/her client, even though he may find what his client has done reprehensible. That is, a counselor needs to be professional and objective, instead of giving advice that always benefit the BS (assuming WS is the client) psychologically, legally and may be even financially. Of course you should do that when (and only when) the BS is your client. I am not against disclosure in general, and i admit to see the value of it in many circumstances. However, a one-size-fit-all approach, no matter what the circumstances may be, is intellectually dishonest for me. Science is mostly theory and guidelines..the human soul, when dealing with infidelity, is not interested in theory or guide lines. I will not advise someone because science says to do this or that. I have found that if a BS wants to reconcile..it is up to them HOW MUCH DETAIL they want. But however much detail, they still want the truth. Science is based on someone's conclusion after a series of studies. Doesn't mean it's always right and science is always changing former theories. There is no guarantee that any marriage will survive after infidelity. But I would wager (as verified by Spark 1111) that someone would rather have the truth of disclosure rather than a theory of it.
Spark1111 Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 I could not agree more! Every marriage is different. Some are a partnership: We pay the bills, raise the children, create a legacy, put our heads down and carry on after your affair because we do not want to muddy the status quo. This spouse may not need or want too many details. That's okay. But you cannot tell me when she becomes is overly unhinged MANY years later because he put the pot back in the wrong cabinet it is NOT an overreaction to his swept-under-the rug infidelity. C'mon! I was passionately in LOVE with my spouse. When he withheld information regarding his affair out of cowardice that I may leave him, it was the first time I saw what a coward he was! Ahhh, love is blind and it is such a blessing to have that sort of blind faith and adoration in a person, who may or may not deserve it. And it is a huge blow when, by trickle-truth and omission, they lose, piece by piece, what they were too messed up to appreciate in the first place. They are taking this amazing gift of a second chance and blowing it. And when you walk into counselors who THINK they know the answers but have NEVER personally experienced that level of betrayal, and actually encourage the WS to withhold info because it may hurt their BS, who is begging for it.....well, take all your theories and shove them. It is wrong, wrong, wrong and oh so damaging to a successful reconciliation. It is the worst advice ever. And I cannot believe so many espouse it.
TMCM Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Science is mostly theory and guidelines. I beg to differ with your simplistic assessment of science. While it is true that a lot of what science offers is made of theories, a lot more has already been proven by observation and experimentation - somewhat similar to what you've done in your counseling practice. To me the only valid reason for keeping an affair a secret is if the BS has clearly shown destructive behaviors such as domestic violence or suicidal attempts. As far as the desire for the gory details is concerned, the BS should be warned that it may be counterproductive to his/her well being and to marital recovery. Edited May 11, 2011 by TMCM eta
SoulStorm Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 I beg to differ with your simplistic assessment of science. While it is true that a lot of what science offers is made of theories, a lot more has already been proven by observation and experimentation - somewhat similar to what you've done in your counseling practice. To me the only valid reason for keeping an affair a secret is if the BS has clearly shown destructive behaviors such as domestic violence or suicidal attempts. As far as the desire for the gory details is concerned, the BS should be warned that it may be counterproductive to his/her well being and to marital recovery. TMCM, I mean no harm in my view of science. Science has been more than productive in the enhancement of our way of life on this planet. I am a big fan of science when it comes to the universe and the human anatomy. I do feel that science has somewhat of a robotic and canned approach when it comes to the human psyche involving infidelity. Sure there are times when you shouldn't disclose. In cases where the spouse cannot handle it and has been proven mentally unstable..no. Also you shouldn't disclose if your spouse is in a high stress environment that may endanger his life. Such as war or incarcerated. After such events have ended and the spouse is more than mentally capable for the disclosure, it should be done. There is the science of human emotion. That takes more than just theory, as you say..it is more observation and experimentation.
Author nyrias Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 TMCM, I mean no harm in my view of science. Science has been more than productive in the enhancement of our way of life on this planet. I am a big fan of science when it comes to the universe and the human anatomy. I do feel that science has somewhat of a robotic and canned approach when it comes to the human psyche involving infidelity. Sure there are times when you shouldn't disclose. In cases where the spouse cannot handle it and has been proven mentally unstable..no. Also you shouldn't disclose if your spouse is in a high stress environment that may endanger his life. Such as war or incarcerated. After such events have ended and the spouse is more than mentally capable for the disclosure, it should be done. There is the science of human emotion. That takes more than just theory, as you say..it is more observation and experimentation. I mostly agree with what is said here. However, I wish to elaborate. The biggest difference between scientific observation & experimentation, and that of experience, is the use of statistics to SYSTEMATICALLY isolate cause and effect. It is a misconception that science is all about theory. In fact, MOST science is done empirically with documented observations, statistics. The key is that, even emotions, have well recognized patterns and CAN BE analyzed rigorously. In fact, scientific analysis is MUCH MORE reliable than human experience and judgment just because it is consistent, and "fairly" evaluate data. And there is nothing wrong with being "robotic". I am not an expert in infidelity, however i do research in economics behavior. Mathematical models, estimated from real data, *can* predict, to a certain degree, of what people *will* do .. in limited context. We are *more* robotic than you think.
Author nyrias Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 I beg to differ with your simplistic assessment of science. While it is true that a lot of what science offers is made of theories, a lot more has already been proven by observation and experimentation - somewhat similar to what you've done in your counseling practice. To me the only valid reason for keeping an affair a secret is if the BS has clearly shown destructive behaviors such as domestic violence or suicidal attempts. As far as the desire for the gory details is concerned, the BS should be warned that it may be counterproductive to his/her well being and to marital recovery. Back to the literature about disclosure .... The literature suggests that the situation is much more complex that you have stated. As I have pointed out before, Spring 1996 says: (a) one believes the revelation will crush one’s partner’s spirit irremediably; (b) one believes the revelation will create an obsessional focus on the affair and keep those in the relationship from examining the problems that caused it; © one’s partner is physically disabled and unable to provide sexual companionship, and those in the relationship choose to stay together to provide medical and emotional support; and (d) one believes one’s partner will physically harm one. You only mentioned (d) .... do you have any reasons, empirical or otherwise, to suggest that (a), (b) and © are not correct? This paper (http://tfj.sagepub.com/content/16/4/328.full.pdf+html) suggests that a MAJORITY of therapist will also council non-disclosure if the affair is "past and terminated". Surely i can tell you (and Soulstorm) disagree with this approach. The question is whether there is any empirical evidence that disclosing, in this case, is "better" (measured by divorce rate? measured by some psychological happiness measure?), beyond your personal belief that withholding information is immoral. Note that even the law view lying and withholding information differently. Every US citizen has fifth amendment right of NOT disclosing potentially incriminating evidence while if you talk in court, lying is punishment by jail time (perjury). So at least conceptually, lying and withholding information are two different thing. That means it is possible to evaluate the two differently, in a moral point of view. The question is why do *you* (if so) equate lying and withholding information?
Author nyrias Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 And when you walk into counselors who THINK they know the answers but have NEVER personally experienced that level of betrayal, and actually encourage the WS to withhold info because it may hurt their BS, who is begging for it.....well, take all your theories and shove them. It is wrong, wrong, wrong and oh so damaging to a successful reconciliation. It is the worst advice ever. And I cannot believe so many espouse it. It sounds like it is wrong to your sense of morality. Is there empirical evidence (note .. NOT theory) to suggest that full 100% disclosure more likely leads to successful reconciliation? (lower divorce rate?) While you don't have a positive view of the majority of counselors, do you have an evidence that they all have worse success rate than you? Let's be objective. It is important to provide advice that works, as opposed to what you think is morally correct.
TMCM Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 nyrias, The survey "Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity: The Journal of Treatment & Prevention" is regarding sexual addicts and their partners. But a great majority of infidelity is not the result of sexual addiction. What about study regarding the effects on the different types of affairs and the survivability of the marriages after disclosure? One thing though that I did agree with is the following statement: One of the most significant steps in early recovery from addictive sexual disorders is disclosure by the addict to his or her significant other of the sexual behaviors in which the addict has been engaging, usually outside the primary relationship.
Author nyrias Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 nyrias, The survey "Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity: The Journal of Treatment & Prevention" is regarding sexual addicts and their partners. But a great majority of infidelity is not the result of sexual addiction. What about study regarding the effects on the different types of affairs and the survivability of the marriages after disclosure? One thing though that I did agree with is the following statement: I don't know. I am not an expert in this area and that is why I am asking the questions. I am curious about "What about study regarding the effects on the different types of affairs and the survivability of the marriages after disclosure?" too. I will do some searches and post it if I find any. BTW, most papers i have seen, except Spring 1996 (a book) seems to council disclosure (even in the survey i post) but it does seem to depend on circumstances, and i have yet to find evidence of how well it works.
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