change Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I have the ability to move back into our house that we rent. We ARE still married. We made a commitment to one another that neither of us intended to break. We've talked about how hard it was for her to decide to break our vows. Well, I'm making the changes she needed me to make. I'm putting in the work. Now she feels obligated to give it another try and is angry because she doesn't want to do it. Well, who cares? Marriage is a commitment for better or for worse. I think I might just move back in and announce that I'm working on the marriage. And that she DOES owe us another chance. She doesn't have to like it, but marriage is a contract, and if there's a way to reconcile, she DOES owe it to us and to me to try. She owes it a number of months of seeing if we can make it work now that I'm putting the work in. I don't give a rats a** if it's one sided and I'm doing all the work. She just needs to put in an appearance and attend MC again. I may have not been a pillar of strength in our marriage and I may never have been one for self-respect or bold moves before. Maybe it's time I change that and respect myself and respect our marriage. I'm worth it. I still believe that she is worth it. It's such a drastic change in behavior from me that I have no idea what she'd do in response. I can't even visualize it. Yas, I'd particularly love to hear your viewpoint on this, because I think you've been trying to encourage me to grow a backbone this entire time. And DOT and soserious1, because you both may best be able to describe how you'd respond if you were in similar situations. I'm also considering moving to a studio apartment where I COULD take our cat (who is like our son) and refusing to talk about finances or divorce papers until we've had a NC cooling off period. And then only talking about it with a third party mediator or a MC present. I'm tired of being ambushed with new information. I can't take it anymore. I may have f***ed up, but I'm a nice guy. I want my wife back and I want my best friend back, but being walked all over isn't going to get me there, I don't think. Another option is moving back in and making her leave if that's what she wants. I could just show up and force it. Or, I could try to talk to her about it. Either way, I've realized that everyone wants to be married to an adult and not a child. I am an adult, and adults take care of themselves. I may not have done that in our marriage, but part of doing it now is not letting myself be attacked repeatedly in my wife's anger.
marqueemoon4 Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 Um, I think this is going to backfire. Definitely move back in your home, but you can't force her to work on the marriage if she's not willing to.
ShatteredReality Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 Move back in. This will give her a chance to see how you have changed. Do not smother her or blow up at her or control her. See if she'll date you a bit...make dinner for her...even if she's not going to eat it with you....right now you may have to do the work, but in the end it all winds up coming out in the wash. I am not advocating being a complete doormat and letting her abuse you in any way....but I am saying that sometimes it's not really as 50/50 as people try to say it always should be...sometimes it's 95/5! We all take turns...when we're on the low end of it we either rarely recognize it or resent if the other person doesn't take up the slack since we always do....if that makes sense. And if it doesn't work it doesn't work, but at least you will be able to say you tried your best. Also...go ahead and plan activities and such for yourself...you need to try to be happy by yourself...because ultimately that could happen...she should be a complimentary addition to your life....but not what you rely on solely for happiness.
Author change Posted May 9, 2011 Author Posted May 9, 2011 Um, I think this is going to backfire. Definitely move back in your home, but you can't force her to work on the marriage if she's not willing to. You're right, I can't force her to. But I've given her space and distance and time -- and ultimately let her move into our house that we rent after fixing the place up for her during the start of our trial separation -- only to be told that she wants out of the marriage right after she moved back in. She said she feels obligated to work on the marriage because I finally am, but that it's too late. Basically that I don't deserve it and she deserves to be selfish. I'm not sure, given what marriage is about, that I agree with that statement anymore. I guess it could backfire and she could pack a bag up and move back in with her friend where she lived for a month after she left. I have no idea. I know she doesn't want to live with me anymore or stay married. But she's giving me NO chance at all, and when a marriage isn't irreconcilable, that's not what marriage is about. Am I wrong?
Author change Posted May 9, 2011 Author Posted May 9, 2011 Move back in. This will give her a chance to see how you have changed. Do not smother her or blow up at her or control her. See if she'll date you a bit...make dinner for her...even if she's not going to eat it with you....right now you may have to do the work, but in the end it all winds up coming out in the wash. I am not advocating being a complete doormat and letting her abuse you in any way....but I am saying that sometimes it's not really as 50/50 as people try to say it always should be...sometimes it's 95/5! We all take turns...when we're on the low end of it we either rarely recognize it or resent if the other person doesn't take up the slack since we always do....if that makes sense. And if it doesn't work it doesn't work, but at least you will be able to say you tried your best. Also...go ahead and plan activities and such for yourself...you need to try to be happy by yourself...because ultimately that could happen...she should be a complimentary addition to your life....but not what you rely on solely for happiness. I guess I should be clear from all of my different threads that she hasn't given me permission to move back in. I'd be forcing it on her, because I think what's happened is absolute cr*p. She wants out of the marriage. But the way she did it was manipulative and blindsided me into leaving our home without any of the actual information about the reality of what was happening. Given that information, ShatteredReality, do you still think I should try moving back in? What's she's done is horribly unfair. I feel so used. She's taking and taking and taking because she feels owed it. And I'm giving and giving and giving because I love her and I'm sorry I made her suffer. But at a certain point, I can't give anymore. If she stuck around long enough for me to make dinner, I like the idea of doing those things regardless of whether or not she joins me in doing them. It's a good approach.
Steadfast Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I guess it could backfire and she could pack a bag up and move back in with her friend where she lived for a month after she left. I have no idea. I know she doesn't want to live with me anymore or stay married. But she's giving me NO chance at all, and when a marriage isn't irreconcilable, that's not what marriage is about. Am I wrong? Emotions often have little to do with right and wrong. You're feeling your oats and for now, you've convinced yourself capable of carrying the burden alone. What you see as strength she might see as controlling neediness. Who knows? You better than anyone. You're there. We aren't. I do know this; if your relationship fails after doing every conceivable thing to save it, you'll live the rest of your days with less burden. What do you have to lose? Really? Just be kind and loving. Don't force your will. So yes; move back in. Good luck and be strong. Seek wisdom.
ShatteredReality Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I guess I should be clear from all of my different threads that she hasn't given me permission to move back in. I'd be forcing it on her, because I think what's happened is absolute cr*p. She wants out of the marriage. But the way she did it was manipulative and blindsided me into leaving our home without any of the actual information about the reality of what was happening. Given that information, ShatteredReality, do you still think I should try moving back in? What's she's done is horribly unfair. I feel so used. She's taking and taking and taking because she feels owed it. And I'm giving and giving and giving because I love her and I'm sorry I made her suffer. But at a certain point, I can't give anymore. If she stuck around long enough for me to make dinner, I like the idea of doing those things regardless of whether or not she joins me in doing them. It's a good approach. I can only speak from my personal experience with this. And honestly, I haven't gone back and read every post you've made...I am going off of what I know from our little threadjack sessions with Jstobo Ok...when I decided it was time to leave my H I put money away and began to make plans to do so. He begged and pleaded with me to stay with him just awhile longer to give him a chance to change what needed to be changed and work through the pain and such. Shortly after agreeing I found myself trapped - but this time it was worse because I knowingly did it to myself. HOWEVER. He ACTUALLY made the changes he promised to make...I would not have seen the extent of it all if I hadn't lived with him. He cooked (sort of), he cleaned...he did the things that he knew meant something TO ME. And he liked doing them...either because they pleased me or because he tried it and found he liked it. I am not saying the house was spotless....it never has been nor will it ever be all the time - I am the worlds worst housekeeper and we have kids - so...yeah. But...he began to help with those things without me asking. I would come home from work and find dinner wrapped on a plate for me in the fridge...all the things that I used to do for him...that when I stopped doing he missed...he did them for me. I crumbled pretty quickly to those things...I gave up the trying to leave him stage and instead made tentative plans to stay...very tentative...with "do not cross" lines all over the place (if he did this one more time I'd leave...or if he did that three more times I'd leave - specific goals on what I'd put up with). Now...I will be clear....looking back now...after the pain I had caused him I truly didn't have a right to put these stipulations out there...but once you've given up you do that. You say - If I am going to stick around there's gotta be a reason besides guilt. So. Yes. Move back in. She may not like it and she may leave...but it's your home. Live in another room...but make your changes evident...and don't let them slide just because you're having a bad day. If she still leaves you then you will know you tried...and you will have your home. Don't rush things. Don't force things. Sometimes the little things become the big things. When he went and found a bunch of new music for me to try out and put it in the car for me...that touched me...when he came in and brought me a fresh hot latte spontaneously - handed it to me and walked out of the room expecting nothing in return...that thawed my cold shoulder a bit. I asked him just last night - Why he stuck around. I didn't make it easy for him. and How could he look at me and see someone beautiful when I had said and done such ugly things? He told me that he loved me and he knew my core...he knows nobody is perfect and when he really thought about all I had put up with he realized he may very well have caused some of how I was acting - action = reaction and all of that stuff. He told me not to be so hard on myself because it negates his love for me...Anyhow, I guess what I am saying is...he didn't know how to not have any control at all...but he did learn to loosen his grip and find a balance I could live with...and more than anything, he made me fall back in love with him. We put up with a great deal more when we're in love with a person than we ever will when we're not.
Yasuandio Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I am going to post my response before I look at others. I EFFING LOVE IT! Sounds like the "you" you described (until I got to the paragraph about some studio apt. that was something you were going -- I quit reading at that point, hoping it was just a temporary black slide. Keep your cat in the house with you). Marriage is for sickness and in health. You are recovering from depression. Even more reason NOT TO isolate yourself in a small, unknown envirnment. Always beware you are doing this for you. NOT TO GET A RISE OUT OF HER. You present an excellent argument. The person that no longer wishes normal mariage be the one to leave. End of discussion. Period. No talkie talk analysis. 180 for you. For you only. If she is gonna walk, she's gonna walk. I suggest that you do not bank on any one opinion. WGW (worldgonewrong) I hope weighs in here. Don't count on getting your wife back eeither way. I would take an attritide as follows: "Wife, now that my medication is working, there is NO WAY I am going to allow you to bamboozle me into this completely outragious agreement. Nor will I any longer be manipulated and fooled by your subtle, but constant revision of the agreement." This is actually what has happened. One Sunday you are supposed to chat about reconcilation at Starbucks, the next thing you know - she is listed as SINGLE on FB. Here's what's gonna happen. Your change, if it is true and authentic (which it should be) is going to prompt inns of two reactions: 1) it will scare the crap out of her and she will be nice wife again 2) she won't care (that means stay put in the house and continue the healing process). Give her 24 hours. No marraiage - then leave. She can get a swing'in single's studio. Do Not Talk About Anything. Lay the the law -- and that's it. If she folds, no happy happy. Dude, you gotta remember you've been emotionally raped. Yes, you contributed. But did you up and cheat? Did she give you a chance to get help? Only you know. But her current methodogy is weird, strange, bizarre. Few could live like that. I can only think of 2 reasons she'd actually expect this proposition might fly. (1) It is very possible she is already gone, and trying to let you off the hook slowly and believes that you are depressed (sick, dispondent) enough to buy into it. And if enough time goes by, she really hopes in her heart you will meet someone elso -- so part of the plan would be so suggest that once in awhile. As well, she might attempt to diminish herself in your eyes. (2). She is the most selfish "devel's food cake eater" on the planet. These are just my initial thoughts. I will get back to u. Listen to others as well.
Yasuandio Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 Um, I think this is going to backfire. Definitely move back in your home, but you can't force her to work on the marriage if she's not willing to. MQM4 could be right about the backfire. It all depends on Change's real MO. Only history will tell us that. MO1: He means what he says. Hmm. Sounds pretty sensible and reasonable to me. Sounds like "the guy" he says he used to be also. Perhaps, when she realizes she is amidst "the real guy" once again, she will "change" her tune real quick. (However, as pre-medicated & pre-depressed person, I would be quite leary about anyone, especially wife, taking advantage of one that is disabled.). As a result "change" will change himself -- and see that he was "had" in this curcumatance. It will then be the new Change that lays down the law. That is.... If he even wants the wife now (she may have been already corrupted, if not pysically, just by the very thought she could pull this off when her man was on the down and out. OR MAYBE NOT (which brings us to Change's possible MO's 2 & 3) POSSIBLE MO 2: Change is using this as a strategy to get her back. It may work. It may work temporary. Then either she might get cold feet, or Change may eventually be disgusted by what happened previously. POSSIBLE MO 3: Same as two, Change uses this as a strategy, but it totally backfires in his face, as suggested by MQM4. Wife may simply leave as requested. Change can hold on and do the 180. OR POSSIBLE MO 4: Change can run after wife when she walks away. He can grovel, beg, plead, and eat dirt -- as well as backtrack, and accept the old agreement. These are the options I can think of at the moment Change. Remember, say ONLY what you mean, and mean what you say. Hope this helps. Yas
Author change Posted May 10, 2011 Author Posted May 10, 2011 I am going to post my response before I look at others. I EFFING LOVE IT! Somehow, I thought you would. Did she give you a chance to get help? Only you know. Yes. I'm not asking for a second chance, really, which she has pointed out. I'm asking for a fiftieth chance. I didn't see that I needed help. She has no experience with clinical depression. Since I've pulled out of it after she left, she thinks I was "holding out on her" the entire time and could have fixed things any ole time. "If you'd love me enough, you would have listened to me." That sort of thing. I've tried to explain that with depression, that's just not always the case, but I can't get through to her on this. Putting her through hell and not seeing help when she asked/begged me to... that's why I've been willing to be a doormat. I'd give anything to take that pain away from her. Literally anything. I think I've finally come to realize that suffering isn't the way to remove the pain, though. I'd love to remove it myself, but I think it's not something I can do for her. I may have caused it, but I can't rid her of it. That hurts me deeply. Not sure what I'm thinking right now. More shortly.
soserious1 Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) Change, if I were her my response to you moving back in would be to immediately move out, I wouldn't spend a single night under the same roof with you under those conditions. Btw, my husband wanted to stay married too,he wanted me to just accept that having sexual urges at my age was :unseemly and unnatural .. getting him out of the house required divorce papers and a hefty monthly alimony check. Edited May 10, 2011 by soserious1
Yasuandio Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 This is a really tough call. I am now speaking purely gut instinct. Something tells me you have roots from a non-western culture. If that is true, I'd use it. If one or both of you is of a foreign decent, of which not has yet been revieled, the whole puzzel is squewed. If that's the case, I actually have experience in that area. Something is missing. You are too nice. She is or was too nice. There is something wrong with this picture. If she is an American born, my guess is she is a fed-up walk away wife, I am sorry to say. It has been in the works for some time, due to your "non-response." I think since you have the illness you should stay put in the house. Don't be surprised if she already has another life all set up. You can only do one thing: 180, and NC. You best start immediatally after you lower the boom. And don't back off. It may already be too late. If you back off on 180 and NC you will CEMENT that. Be careful what you ask for. Again, say what you mean, and you better back it up with action (mean what you say).
PegNosePete Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 Just answered on your other thread but I would say that since you're only renting, don't bother moving back in. Just file for divorce from where you are. Seriously man this marriage is DEAD AS A DODO. You need to line up your ducks and file for divorce immediately. Learn your lessons and make sure you are a better person for your next relationship.
Author change Posted May 10, 2011 Author Posted May 10, 2011 This is a really tough call. I am now speaking purely gut instinct. Something tells me you have roots from a non-western culture. If that is true, I'd use it. If one or both of you is of a foreign decent, of which not has yet been revieled, the whole puzzel is squewed. If that's the case, I actually have experience in that area. Something is missing. You are too nice. She is or was too nice. There is something wrong with this picture. If she is an American born, my guess is she is a fed-up walk away wife, I am sorry to say. It has been in the works for some time, due to your "non-response." I think since you have the illness you should stay put in the house. Don't be surprised if she already has another life all set up. You can only do one thing: 180, and NC. You best start immediatally after you lower the boom. And don't back off. It may already be too late. If you back off on 180 and NC you will CEMENT that. Be careful what you ask for. Again, say what you mean, and you better back it up with action (mean what you say). Both of us are American. I have a more Buddhist slant to things, but I don't think that's what you mean. She was too nice. I may be being too nice right now. We've both put the other's needs ahead of our own at different times, probably to an extreme and unhealthy degree. She did for a long time while I was ill. Now I think I'm doing the same thing. I think she is a fed up walk away wife, from everything I've read on the topic. With one exception. When she left, she told me she expected to want me to pursue her to show that I truly did love her. Then she felt freedom and realized I was too much of a risk and she decided she didn't want to go back. She's entirely unwilling to see who I am becoming because it scares her that she'll break down those walls. She absolutely doesn't want to do that right now. She's being cold and cruel and self-protecting. I understand. I have two real options. I can continue to see her periodically in our house and do the things that she always did for me, as ShatteredReality mentioned her husband doing. I'm going over on Wednesday for a visit with the cat. I can cook her dinner while I'm there before she gets home, since I know she has a lot of studying to do this week for grad school. Then when she gets to the house, I can stay out of her hair, spend a little more time with the cat, and leave instead of sticking around to eat with her. No pressure from me. Just kindness and thoughtfulness as she attempts to drive me away. Just deposits in a love bank that is clearly in the red in hopes of returning to a zero or positive sum. So far, she's been appreciative when I've done these things for her. It makes her happy and I can see the wall come down just a little. Then it goes right back up the next time I see her. The other route is laying down the gauntlet. Moving in and telling her I'm in this marriage still -- I'm entirely willing, capable and excited to have sex now, I'm coming out of the fog and can be thoughtful and kind and the husband she thought she'd lost. I can also just force a NC period and refuse to work toward divorce when she's so angry and so clearly willing to take me to the cleaners. Rather than the distance she's demanding from ME now, this would be me demanding distance from her and making clear that I'm not still waiting around for her. A friend commented that my wife still has no idea what her life would be like without me because I'm still there doing nice things and considering her happiness before my own. When I'm truly gone, it will be different. No matter what, I agree I have to only take action that I can follow through on and mean. ...sometimes I want to walk away from the whole thing... I wish we could just meet again with no history. She wishes this, too. This simultaneously makes me intensely sad and hopeful.
Author change Posted May 10, 2011 Author Posted May 10, 2011 Change, if I were her my response to you moving back in would be to immediately move out, I wouldn't spend a single night under the same roof with you under those conditions. Btw, my husband wanted to stay married too,he wanted me to just accept that having sexual urges at my age was :unseemly and unnatural .. getting him out of the house required divorce papers and a hefty monthly alimony check. Was there ever a sign from your husband that he truly was sexually attracted to you and didn't think your urges were unnatural? It sounds like even after you left, there was not.
soserious1 Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) Was there ever a sign from your husband that he truly was sexually attracted to you and didn't think your urges were unnatural? It sounds like even after you left, there was not. Dear Change, Here's the deal, while you were ill it was all about you, if you didn't want sex well there was no sex no matter how many times your wife reached out to you, Now you've decided to seek treatment and it's still all about you,what you want. You need to keep in mind here that while you weren't responsible for becoming ill,you were responsible for seeking treatment and help. Sadly, your condition reached the point where your wife was reduced to becoming a sexual beggar, groveling at your feet, probably trying 101 different ways for years hoping you'd lower yourself enough to provide her with some intimacy or get yourself some help to find out what was preventing you from enjoying normal marital relations. Years of trying to seek intimacy with an unwilling partner does a huge number on a person's self-esteem..year after year of wondering what's wrong with you, wondering what you've done to offend, what you need to change, the gyrations you go thru trying to help things to change. You reach a place where you no longer care.. you have to reach this place in order to survive emotionally.. if your partner does on some odd chance reach for you sexually you cringe..remembering all the rejections, all the fights, you wonder what his motive is, what's he trying to get from you,if you earn more than your husband you feel sort of like a customer being serviced by a prostitute.. ie: he's only doing this so I won't divorce him. In any case, you get to a place where thoughts of being intimate with a low drive spouse who's refused you for years actually makes you cringe, it doesn't excite you,, it fills you with sadness and dread. The time to have made all your changes was several years ago.. now that your wife has separated & made it clear she wants a divorce & wishes to date.. well the train has left the station. She wants a relationship with somebody who's touch won't make her cringe, won't make her sad and won't make her wonder if she's being played for her paycheck. Edited May 10, 2011 by soserious1
UntoldStory Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 Sadly, your condition reached the point where your wife was reduced to becoming a sexual beggar, groveling at your feet, probably trying 101 different ways for years hoping you'd lower yourself enough to provide her with some intimacy or get yourself some help to find out what was preventing you from enjoying normal marital relations. Years of trying to seek intimacy with an unwilling partner does a huge number on a person's self-esteem..year after year of wondering what's wrong with you, wondering what you've done to offend, what you need to change, the gyrations you go thru trying to help things to change. You reach a place where you no longer care.. you have to reach this place in order to survive emotionally.. if your partner does on some odd chance reach for you sexually you cringe..remembering all the rejections, all the fights, you wonder what his motive is, what's he trying to get from you,if you earn more than your husband you feel sort of like a customer being serviced by a prostitute.. ie: he's only doing this so I won't divorce him. In any case, you get to a place where thoughts of being intimate with a low drive spouse who's refused you for years actually makes you cringe, it doesn't excite you,, it fills you with sadness and dread. As a soon to be divorced woman with a severely depressed STBXH, I can validate these statements. This is where I was. I have a high sex drive, and he had next to none because of his illness. Change, I haven't read all your posts but in just putting together the backstory from this thread, I'm very impressed with your efforts to get better and I truly hope you are able to prove to your wife that you're there for her now as an equal partner. Unfortunately for me, when we finally got down to diagnosing the broken parts of our relationship, the effort on his part was too little too late (and he still refuses to try medication).
Yasuandio Posted May 10, 2011 Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) Change, The last two posts present your most important, if not impossble challange. "SoSerious1" an "UntoldStory" both point to an issue, the imact of which is so serious on one's psyche, that my own story, in any detail, remains untold. These responses touched me deeply. They truely captured the feeling of being denied sexual intimacy by your spouse. There are two sides to every story, Change. And looking at this from the female's perspective I believe will be the missing link for you. I learned something from these posters as well. They put me in touch with a reality I usually try not to think about -- that is, it is really a lot easier not to think about it (denial). And upon reflection, I think both you and I should think about it. And I cannot believe I didn't even spend more time on the topic. Years of this exact type of rejection took it's toll on me. It is not particularly the lack of the sexual act (people can live without sex); I would say, it is the constant rejection "in that department" that is the root cause of often severe and/or irreputible damages to a woman and her sense of self-esteem and femininity. Actually I hate to think about it. How many years went by and I would just accept flimsy excuses. Oh dear. The writing was all over the wall and I didn't want to face it. Change, believe it or not, that part I could actually forgive and forget, and move on. It's those years of nothing but rejection that I cannot get over. I feel cheated. And somehow the rejection had other negative impacts on me. Now that I have not lived with him for over two years, I look like a completely different person -- for the better. I walk tall, and confident. I have my hair done by a professional the way I want it - and it is damn flashy. Instead of drab brownish red hanging in my eyes, I am sporting the cutest haircut and color imaginable! Sort of long, shoulder, length layers, with bangs cut in a subtle "V" shape - six shades of bright red and a little brown. Then underneath, panals of hair peak thru that have been died bright yellow and orange. Sort of a Punk/Avenger Style. I one year I went from 208 pounds to a size 6 without even trying. Therefore, I can wear miniskirts and low rider jeans from the junior department. I got sort of a Goth-Punk look going on, and it is so much fun to dress up when you start looking good and feeling better about yourself. I'm telling you this so you can picture me, I am a colorful person, I am an artist. I brought ALL of my art up from the basement and re-decoraced this entire house. No longer will my huge post-modern alter pieces be wrapped in sheets and plasic from their last showing at the _____ Museum Art. Yes, it was a while back, but I still own a couple of the 6 or more pieces that were included in the exhibition. My art is totally cool and I have needed to be around, and, walla! Can you see me now? This is really crazy, but I still desire the past. But if it were in my hand I don't think I would really hold onto it. Someone would have to cherish me, or leave alone -- cause I seem to be doing pretty good. Just need to work on the health. Change -- as bad as I want my old life back, (my marriage going now on 27 years, 32 years together) even I cannot deny the CHANGE that confronts me in the mirror. There is a different person there. The old Yas is never coming back. I am always going for a cool punk look -- no more tent dresses for me. This is what your up against change. But too, you may still have the "denial" card in play (and you may not). In other words -- if your wife chickens out, and comes back to you, you fix it right away, and keep it fixed. I thank soserious1 and untoldstory for reminding me that I suffered an emotional abuse, and I just seemed to put it out of my mind. Anyone with a propensity towards living with this, or the "doer of such a deed" (for what ever reason) needs to remember it everyday so it never happens again. It doesn't mean your a dummy because you were the rejected one. And it doesn't automatically make you evil if you did the rejecting, especially, if you realize what has gone wrong and do your very best to correct it and make it right. Can you see HER now? Hope this is helpful. Edited May 10, 2011 by Yasuandio
UntoldStory Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Yas - your post sounds so very very much like me, after realizing that I had been living under the cloud of what, indeed, amounted to emotional abuse. I know that there are threads ad infinitum on LS about this, but it's worth repeating - women suffer the exact same chronic burden of low self-esteem when continually rejected by their partners as men do. And sometimes, it's just too late to repair the damage in the context of that relationship. The best thing to do for both people is to move on, and bring their evolved (hopefully healed and stronger) selves to the next relationship. My separation and divorce are utterly gut-wrenching for everyone involved - me, my family, stbxh, his family, and especially our children. But what keeps me going down this path is that I know I am giving the gift to myself of wholeness --including my sexuality which thank god is still healthy and going strong -- and that that will serve as an example to my children. Change - I'm sorry for the tj. But I do hope this perspective is helpful (if perhaps hard to hear).
Yasuandio Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Untoldstory, Im sure "change" welcomes any thoughts that arise from his thread! The courage, and personal journey yours and soserious1 stimulated in me today, which is reflected in my long written response to him, was a really strange thing to reveal to him. Took me totally off guard. And I instantally knew that Change needed to know "in all honesty" where the Yas attitude was born. So Change, please re-evaluate and view the advice I given you in context, ok? Although I have always been a kind, humble, and TACTFUL person, I clearly am absolutely sure I have years of repressed anger within me. You and I both have seen the monster show herself on LS (that's someone I do not recognize!). If only I could remove some posts. I am ok with a little whit, attitude, and sarcasm. BUT, If only I had not lashed out like a bloody demon at my first inclination, just waited, been somewhat diplomatic, said the same thing with kinder, gentler words. Or just leave the item to speak for itself and know when to shut up. But NO, let's chew thru the juglar vein like an effing beaver, and there it sits forever. This is what years of emotional abuse slash neglect in "The Women's Department" has done to me. I know so much better. I also see it in my health. Change, what ya got going for you, is that sometimes it takes a long period to erode the female to the point where she won't take it anymore. Probably has something to due with upbringing -- and what was modeled for her. If you get the card, kiss the ground. BTW... It was never my intent to fool you in any way. The coincidence just didn't occur to me because my husband is extremely mean and hateful -- not at all introspective caring, and thoughtful like you (an unadulterated, albeit simplistic, archiac, a true Narcissist in it's purist form). Edited May 11, 2011 by Yasuandio
dreamingoftigers Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Change, Contact a Divorce Busting coach on the 180 last resort technique. They are awesome! Don't just guess at it until you have the material/ attitude down.
Yasuandio Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Dot, I'm even considering one of these coaches, or hiring Dr. Bob Grant to be my therapist (if he accepts Medicare!). However, they charge by the hour. And I believe, the last few posts, are just a new, and recent direction for Change to contemplate. I mean, I know it's been an issue from the go get. However, would it be better for us to hown this issue down to it's cortex -- before the per hour sessions? ON THE OTHER HAND: Change, I totally agree with Dot. The coach resource is worth the investment. You have an extremely analytical mind. What do you think now? Can you boil this issue down to a sensible degree so there will be time left over for you to hear the advice? You can't spend the time tacking. You need to boil the issue down to the clear and concise points. Dot, who would you recommend? And in this case, male or female coach?
Author change Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 Yas, SoSerious1 and UntoldStory -- I plan to respond to each of your posts directly in the next day or so. For now, though, here are my general thoughts. First, thank you so much for sharing. Nothing said was threadjacking. I am more appreciative of your insight than you know. I sobbed uncontrollably after reading your posts, and not because I am afraid that my wife will never come back -- although I'm sure that's in there, too. I sobbed because I think I know more fully how my actions or lack thereof impacted my wife. I could never imagine hurting her so deeply. It makes me wither inside. It makes me never want to trust myself with the love of another human being ever again. The grief I feel is... astounding. It's something I'll have to forgive myself for... someday. I'm not sure how or when. You're feedback was so honest and so open that I feel I need to give the missing piece of the puzzle in my story. I had withheld it, not out of lack of trust, but because I fear it is too identifying. My anonymity here is important to me. But the courage of your sharing touched me in a way that I had never expected, and if you are willing to dredge these pits in order to help me understand and navigate my situation, you deserve my complete honesty, too. Yas, you'd commented that there must be a piece missing. This is it: I'm a transgender guy. I was born female, and I live as a male. My wife knew this when we met. She was amazingly supportive and loving and excited for me. I had planned to medically transition from one gender to the other, but fear of job loss and shame and self-loathing got in the way. We lived as a man and wife in our private life, and I hid in our public life as a lesbian (she is bisexual and was fine with either label). Our close friends and family knew, but in significant areas of our lives, I was in the closet. The longer I waited to transition, the more depressed I became. And the longer I waited to transition, the more out of touch I became with my own body. I stopped being able to mentally be in my body at all. I stopped being able to have sex, to feel any sexual drive. Just considering sex eventually made me so anxious and upset because of the necessity to be in my body to do it... that I just gave up. I tried to find ways to get around it. When she asked and begged me to change -- told me she couldn't be in a marriage that was only with her best friend -- I tried to work on it. I really did. But I was terrified of facing the truth that I would have to go forward with medically transitioning in order to fix it. I reasoned that I had been able to have sex in the past. I thought that if I just puzzled through it logically long enough in my head, I would find a way around admitting what I looked at as a failure -- that I was truly transgender and that I would have to transition in order to ever be a whole person. My wife was aware of this struggle. I thought she knew that it was about me and not about a lack of desire for her. Her beauty and wonder were never in question in my mind. I had a problem, a problem I didn't see a way to fix, and I missed that it wasn't just about the sex. She very well may have told me that it wasn't. I don't know. When she left, I realized I couldn't hide from it anymore. I couldn't let the depression and the fear tear my life apart in such profound ways. I sought treatment and medication for my depression. And I realized that I couldn't keep running from myself. I had to transition physically in order to be whole in all of the ways a person should be whole. I am in the process of doing this now, despite my fears of going it alone and losing my job and all of the other discrimination that goes with being transgender. It's the only way forward in my life. I also know that I have to move forward because of her. She poured so much support and love -- as well as so many tears and so much pain -- into trying to help me love myself and accept myself, that I owe it to her to move forward just as much as I owe it to myself. Sinking into the fear and the depression again because I am without her would be no way to honor the amazing person she has been in my life. All of this is how I know that I will never do this to my wife again. In finally shaking off the last bits of shame and fear of who I am, I am in my body mentally for the first time in my life. I am physically becoming the person I have always known I was for the first time in my life. I know I can be a husband, a partner, a boyfriend, a lover, in all the ways that one should be. I couldn't before. I've had such a loss of self-esteem and connection to my body over the years that it tears me apart to know that I inflicted the same pain on her. Nothing that I've said above is meant in any way as an excuse for my actions or the harm that I caused my wife. I fully own the mistakes I've made and my unwillingness or inability to see a way forward -- and to see the harm I was causing. The reasons behind the actions make them no more or less forgivable than any other situation. But I felt that you deserved the full story, since you all have so generously and courageously given me yours. I hope you understand that it was never my intent to mislead or withhold. (And, Yas, I understand you never meant to fool me.) If any of this is unclear or unfamiliar, please feel free to ask questions and I'll answer what I can. Thank you again for your feedback, thoughts and help. If nothing else, my wife deserves for me to fully understand the pain that I have caused her.
UntoldStory Posted May 11, 2011 Posted May 11, 2011 Change - Bravo, bravo for your courage and honesty and accountability. If any one deserves a chance to hold onto the woman they love, I think it must be you. I so, so hope for your and her sake that it is not too late. I think it's also important to be clear about a piece of my story that heavily impacts my decision to divorce -- and that is that even without the 15 years of sexual rejection (although clearly, we had sex at least twice) there were many other ways in which I wasn't getting what I needed, even before we were married. And yet I chose to marry him anyway. We didn't have much in common (interests, especially) but what we did have in common was depression - and all that mattered to me at that time in my life was having someone to share in the view that life was hard. Enter my children, and enter xMM (long distance EA) who showed me that life can be about maximizing JOY - and my depression/chronic seriousness has lifted. Unfortunately, his has not, and now the gulf between us is simply un-bridge-able. I own my poor choices. But as I've said elsewhere in other threads, I did the best I could with the information I had at the time. I truly believe that we ALL do. All that matters is what's in front of us. Change, you WILL be OK, no matter what happens. And you WILL find love. (I have friends and family repeating this to me daily, so it's becoming sort of a mantra.) Again, hope that helps and THANK YOU for your courage and honesty. You're an inspiration.
Author change Posted May 11, 2011 Author Posted May 11, 2011 Change, Contact a Divorce Busting coach on the 180 last resort technique. They are awesome! Don't just guess at it until you have the material/ attitude down. This gets to something that a lot of people in my life are expressing right now. I'm letting my spouse go on sending me mixed signals because I want them. I'm doing things to make her happy, things I should have done when we were together, because I want to. Every time I make her happy, I feel like that wall comes down a bit. But it's also not taking care of myself. Given the full situation, I want her to see who I CAN BE. I don't want to give up the fight while there's still a fight to be in. I see doing the 180 as being about yourself and not your spouse. Part of a 180 for me would be suddenly doing those caring things that I left unsaid or undone in the depths of my depression. Doing things that are truly surprising to her after so long. This board is littered with the stories of people that did everything they could to show themselves as the best spouse possible, but nothing they did made a difference until they truly gave up and moved on (or at least appeared to). Then there are stories like ShatteredReality's, where those little actions seemed to poke holes in the wall and eventually made the walls come down. Then there are those situations that were just too far gone to save. I dont know which story I'm in. If I cut off all communication, there's no way for her to see that I'm a different person. But if I don't cut off all communication and I continue to be her spouse while she wants to be single... I'm not respecting myself. But I get to see her smile when something unexpected that I do breaks through the anger and resentment. I treasure those moments. It's an awful bind. The fastest way to failure is giving up. But when are you giving up and when are you just in denial? I guess I fundamentally don't understand the 180 at all.
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