fishtaco Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 So I've been back in the scene for about a month now. Unfortunately about half of that was spent being sick and working overtime. But I finally got my first number tonight. Even though after I figured out what's going on with my... information gathering, it turned out to be a lot less significant. Young Girl, whom I thought was stolen away from me by Aggressive Guy, turned out to be a much more complicated situation than I had thought. I had scratched her off, but she paid me extra attention today, and, well, we have a physical connection. It's that damn MHC thing... the smell. After I come home after dancing with like 20 different women, with a blend of everyone's perfume on my shirt, I could still pick out her scent, and an image of her immediately pops into my head. So today with her right there in front of me, and her smell permeating my olfactory senses, I made my move anyway, and got her number. Nope, normally getting a number doesn't mean crap already. In this case, it may mean even less. After I got her number, I found out the story via my connection... Young Girl and Aggressive Guy are "boyfriend/girlfriends". But I didn't know that because he is out sleeping with all the other women. Apparently that's their arrangement. He sleeps with everyone, but she's exclusive to him, and unhappy about it. So Aggressive Guy, who was an acquaintance of mine, is now pissed off at me for moving in on his territory. But I had no idea. I see him put his moves on other women all the time. I thought he'd just hooked up with her for one night then tossed her. And I planned on scratching her off originally, but my damn physiological response to her phermones changed my mind. Although in my defense, she came up to me, I was originally staying at a polite but social distance. My connection, who happens to be her friend for a long time, hates her "boyfriend", for obvious reasons. He's rooting for me, and was pushing me to actually use the number and call her sometime next week. But here's my estimation of the situation -- she was just using me to get back at him. This is why nice guys lose. A nice guy in this situation would say... hey, I'll treat her way better than him, she should totally like me. Then proceeds to totally over invest, with the expected outcome. Wrong. Some people stay in unhappy relationships because that's what they want. She wants to be with him. The fact that I can offer her a much better relationship -- for starters, if we become exclusive I'll actually BE exclusive -- does not make any difference. It's NOT a selling point to her, even though that's what she claims she wants... to my friend, and leaked to me. What women say and what women do are often not the same. At this point because of my friend "the connection", I feel like I'm obligated to "rescue her" on his behalf. Playing the white knight is never a good strategy. But I'll make the call anyway and see what happens. My bet is she'll just be wishy washy and nothing will come out of it. Which probably would be the best out come for me. But I have to say when she's there physically in front of me within "smelling distance", she's pretty difficult to resist. We'll see. On the plus side I took care of this drunk guy. Stopped him from driving and hung out with him for an hour and a half in the parking lot until he sobered up. He was very appreciative, and I made a friend. It just so happens that he knows a lot of women, and showed me a picture of one of his friends that's hot and single. I asked him to hook me up. I should be going to his parties pretty soon. And the wheel keeps turning.
iris219 Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 Why doesn’t the fact that this girl allows herself to be treated so badly by a jerk make you lose attraction to her? I know pheromones can be hard to resist, but once I find out something disreputable, despicable, or just generally unappealing about a guy, my senses kick in and overpower lust. I can’t imagine having any attraction for a guy who would put up with a similar arrangement with a woman. It would make me lose all respect for him.
Imajerk17 Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 I know that this is besides the point of your thread fishtaco, but why are you dealing with the bar scene? (Or however you met this girl...) My thoughts reading this is that there is just way too much drama here, that I suspect is endemic to the environment, where there is so much alcohol involved.
Cee Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 It's sad that this woman is in a "relationship" that is nothing. It is her getting a high from their nights together and then he goes back to flirting and sleeping with other women. And then she feels a crash. She is hooked on the highs and lows and thinks that resembles the joys and pains of a real relationship. Once she breaks the cycle (if she does), she will finally be able to have an adult relationship. I don't think it hurts to flirt with her. Maybe it will shake her out of her addictive bubble for a moment. But yeah, I can see her needing to be "loyal" to her abusive relationship, which is really her fear of commitment. Of taking the steps to find genuine happiness in her life. Sometimes commitment phobic women choose unavailable men as a way to perpetuate they cycle of aloneness. They can blame choosing the wrong men, when in fact, they picked the men they wanted. The ones who are incapable of loyalty and depth.
threebyfate Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 DRA-MA! Don't go there. How many levels of stupid would someone have to be to remain in a one-sided relationship like that? The guy's a prick but he appears to fill some kind of need for the girl. As far as the "nice guy" thing, how nice are you knowing that she's got a b/f, regardless of their arrangement, and yet still tempted to get laid due to pheromones? This drama triangle has no innocents.
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sanskrit Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 The problem with what is called "nice guys" is that they think too much and get their self-image involved too prematurely. You are already "championing" this girl and getting mucked in her stuff (they all have it btw, most all to this level, if they don't, they will create it, so best not to ask). You should be concerned with exactly two things at this point: 1. Does she continue to be worth your time, and this includes all factors, attraction, baggage, etc.? (if it takes longer than two minutes to puzzle the answer out, it's probably "No.") 2. Is she continuing to accept dates and attention favorably from you? In other words is she saying yes and treating you well when you are together? That's IT. Worry about more to the peril of your sanity, also, once you make these two things "IT" you magically leave the realm of "nice guys" who sit around and sop up her endless life dramas without also getting whatever it is they want in life from this particular woman.
Author fishtaco Posted May 9, 2011 Author Posted May 9, 2011 Why doesn’t the fact that this girl allows herself to be treated so badly by a jerk make you lose attraction to her? Because I made my move before I knew what was going on. Chronological order: 1) Met her, because we're both regulars. She got my attention. Was going to hit on her. 2) I saw her with this guy a couple of weeks ago, thought it was an ONS, but I lost interest anyway 3) Saw her again, just being social & polite, because I wasn't going to make a move. 4) She came up to me, so I changed my mind on the spot and made the move anyway. 5) Talked to the "connection" found out about the story, disappointed, this is big negative points. So she did lose points. It's to the point now that I kind of don't even want to call her anymore. If my lack of excitement from getting her number didn't come through in the post, I'm stating it right now. Also perfume and cologne aren't pheromones except for maybe the vaginal secretions one. MHC comes through in saliva, sweat, and any sort of body emissions. It wasn't her perfume I was attracted to, it was her natural body scent. We danced close. By close I mean close enough to be inappropriate at many other places. But then I also dance close with all the other women, hence I have all of their perfume blended on my shirt by the end of the night. I know that this is besides the point of your thread fishtaco, but why are you dealing with the bar scene? (Or however you met this girl...) My thoughts reading this is that there is just way too much drama here, that I suspect is endemic to the environment, where there is so much alcohol involved. Well, this is actually not just a bar-bar. It's a local Latin dance... place, for a lack of a better word. But there is a bar anyway. So this is half way between a "dance studio" and a bar, but more on the bar side. There is a lot of drama there. Probably not as much as say a hip hop club or something. Originally I had two targets in this scene, Young Girl, and Material Girl. After these two are... resolved, I was going to move on to other areas. So I may have more stories/drama regarding Material Girl coming up. For most clubs/bars are the only hook up scene. You catch many fewer fish trying to work through friends and acquaintances. If you decide to use that method then people tend to keep you from the good ones and leave you with the obvious mismatches. Not everyone goes to school or is still in school. Work is a perilous place to find a mate. Most adults don't join groups and clubs so if you do then you get a very small segment of the population. There are more opportunities at bar/clubs, but quality is lower. I'm not in school, and I don't mess with work. Social circles are better, they tend to have better quality people, but they don't have parties all the time. So opportunity is lower. I hit both. Drunk guy is going to invite me to a party in two weeks that he told me about. I get to meet his friends. Which arguably, would be a bit better than random bar people. I work whatever opportunities that come my way, be it bar or whatever. Just this weekend I was at 5 de mayo party. I tried to hit on "Raven", who is probably better quality and less drama than the women of the bar scene. Because she's friendly, but private, and comes off as the proper type. I.e. she doesn't mess around, she doesn't throw herself at guys as soon as her lips touch alcohol... etc. She's actually a better choice than Young Girl and Material Girl. If all three said yes to me, I'm going with Raven. But I couldn't get traction with her. I'll try again next time. It's sad that this woman is in a "relationship" that is nothing. It is her getting a high from their nights together and then he goes back to flirting and sleeping with other women. And then she feels a crash. She is hooked on the highs and lows and thinks that resembles the joys and pains of a real relationship. Once she breaks the cycle (if she does), she will finally be able to have an adult relationship. I don't think it hurts to flirt with her. Maybe it will shake her out of her addictive bubble for a moment. But yeah, I can see her needing to be "loyal" to her abusive relationship, which is really her fear of commitment. Of taking the steps to find genuine happiness in her life. Sometimes commitment phobic women choose unavailable men as a way to perpetuate they cycle of aloneness. They can blame choosing the wrong men, when in fact, they picked the men they wanted. The ones who are incapable of loyalty and depth. I like your post. I think she has low self esteem. That's why she would put up with crap guys like this. So maybe the fact that I hit on her gave her some self esteem. Or maybe he'll get his act together now and commit to her because I'm a threat -- although probably not, even so, as soon as I'm out of the picture, he'll go right back to what he was doing. Ironically, her arrangement exists because of her, not him, she holds the decision. I'm going to give her a call and see what happens. My estimation right now is nothing will happen. Then I'm the good guy all around. I helped her with her self esteem by following through with my call. I can tell my connection "hey, I tried", but Aggressive Guy is going to hate me anyway, which, I don't really care about. DRA-MA! Don't go there. How many levels of stupid would someone have to be to remain in a one-sided relationship like that? The guy's a prick but he appears to fill some kind of need for the girl. As far as the "nice guy" thing, how nice are you knowing that she's got a b/f, regardless of their arrangement, and yet still tempted to get laid due to pheromones? This drama triangle has no innocents. I'm not a nice guy, in fact, I'm a prick myself. Just a smaller prick.... somehow, that doesn't sound like a good thing. Anyway, what I meant was that this situation, nice guys would pull an epic fail. Luckily, I'm not a nice guy. Of course, if I step in doo-doo like Disinterested said, I'm not going to walk away clean, but at least I won't rub my face in it like a nice guy would. The problem with what is called "nice guys" is that they think too much and get their self-image involved too prematurely. You are already "championing" this girl and getting mucked in her stuff (they all have it btw, most all to this level, if they don't, they will create it, so best not to ask). You should be concerned with exactly two things at this point: 1. Does she continue to be worth your time, and this includes all factors, attraction, baggage, etc.? (if it takes longer than two minutes to puzzle the answer out, it's probably "No.") 2. Is she continuing to accept dates and attention favorably from you? In other words is she saying yes and treating you well when you are together? That's IT. Worry about more to the peril of your sanity, also, once you make these two things "IT" you magically leave the realm of "nice guys" who sit around and sop up her endless life dramas without also getting whatever it is they want in life from this particular woman. Well, at this point I'm just going to make a phone call. I feel bad for her, but I'm not championing her. I did not take it upon my shoulder to get her away from her man, and I won't. Most likely nothing will happen. It'd be fun if I can just have a casual relationship with her (i.e. sex), but now I know her situation, spelled out by Cee, I kind of feel bad if I do that. Probably contribute to her low self esteem problem. Again, I probably shouldn't have put that rant against nice guys in there. Made my post confusing. My point was to say this is how nice guys would fail in this situation -- they think "nice" is a selling point, so they be extra nice and over invest, only to get kicked in the face later. If I wanted to "win", the only way in this situation, is to be another prick. This being the home field of Aggressive Guy, I bet he thinks that's exactly what I'm trying to pull... being another prick.
threebyfate Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 See, I don't understand these user quasi-relationships or compartmentalizing sex when you don't respect or even like someone. Carry on though. She's obviously got issues and while you're being predatory by going for it, she too is hoping to use you to branch swing. But I will say that this can't be helping your cynicism. If anything, it's a form of confirmation bias.
Author fishtaco Posted May 9, 2011 Author Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) See, I don't understand these user quasi-relationships or compartmentalizing sex when you don't respect or even like someone. Carry on though. She's obviously got issues and while you're being predatory by going for it, she too is hoping to use you to branch swing. But I will say that this can't be helping your cynicism. If anything, it's a form of confirmation bias. LOL, yeah you're right. I'm pretty cynical. And it keeps getting reinforced. But you know what? I'm glad you're not. To me that means you probably see a prettier world than I do. Good for you. I may not be predatory though. I know what to do, but I may not do it, if that makes sense. Right now I'm only committed to one phone call that I'm going to make within the next couple of days. The angel on my right shoulder will be talking to the devil on my left shoulder. We'll see what happens. No promises. Edited May 9, 2011 by fishtaco typo
threebyfate Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 LOL, yeah you're right. I'm pretty cynical. And it keeps getting reinforced. But you know what? I'm glad you're not. To me that means you probably see a prettier world than I do. Good for you. I may not be predatory though. I know what to do, but I may not do it, if that makes sense. Right now I'm only committed to one phone call that I'm going to make within the next couple of days. The angel on my right shoulder will be talking to the devil on my left shoulder. We'll see what happens. No promises.You're one of the few on LS, who has the smarts to elevate himself out of the rat race. And yes, that's a compliment. Consider the pragmatic side of not getting involved with this dufus couple. You avoid the unnecessary drama from the derpish b/f.
Star Gazer Posted May 9, 2011 Posted May 9, 2011 This thread is exact reason why nice guys finish last. They want to be the white night to women like this.
Author fishtaco Posted May 9, 2011 Author Posted May 9, 2011 You're one of the few on LS, who has the smarts to elevate himself out of the rat race. And yes, that's a compliment. Consider the pragmatic side of not getting involved with this dufus couple. You avoid the unnecessary drama from the derpish b/f. Oh wow. Thank you. I actually feel like I'm putting myself back into the rat race because that's the only race in town. But I try not to be stupid. Key word being "try". Thank you for your point though. I'm not going to make a decision until after the phone call. My prediction is this: - I call, get voice mail - I leave a message, hey this is Fishtaco, give me a call. That's all I'm going to say. - She won't call me back. - The end. I've very aware of the possibility of over-investing on my part. So this is going to be a minimal effort approach. If it fizzles out I won't even need to make a decision. The important thing here is I got my first number. I haven't been able to get anything going since my semi-relationship ended with "Violet". Maybe it's just a mental thing, but it feels like once I get my feet wet, then after that things will get going. This thread is exact reason why nice guys finish last. They want to be the white night to women like this. Thank you. That was my point during the "nice guy rant" part of my post.
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