Author Woggle Posted May 12, 2011 Author Posted May 12, 2011 First of all, in my last post "happier" was supposed to be "harpie." Smart phone is smarter than me! lol Second, good Wiggle! You wouldn't"t want to risk losing that gem! Besides, you look so damn cute together. I knew what you meant. I know I am lucky. Between marriages I told friends I had as much of a chance of finding a good woman as there was of us actually catching Bin Laden. In the end both things actually happened.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Her perspective, her words and her actions are outside of his control. Accepting that removes one significant negative. I can't agree here, or at least am optimistic that it doesn't have to be this way. At least my behavior is certainly responsive to her likes and dislikes. If she doesn't like the music I like, I use headphones. If it irritates her that I walk around in sock feet, I wear shoes. If she doesn't like to discuss religion, I avoid that topic. These are tiny no-brainer things that don't rise to the level of even being an "issue" IMO. OTOH, any expectation of quid pro quo is always a huge deal and invitation to a lengthy discussion that can't be just dropped... ever. They take everything personally to the nth degree. One measure of what I feel like a successful relationship should be is adapting to each other. But IME, the "adapting" doesn't run both ways, doesn't in most of my friend's marriages and relationships either. If she picks up a brand of charcoal that I don't normally use, NBD, IT'S JUST CHARCOAL. But here's what I get: "But honey, I needed the 10 oz tub of crushed cranberries." "They were out of those so I got two 6 oz tubs." "But the recipe calls for 10oz, and I like the brand that comes in 10oz." "They were out." "Did you look all over the store? Sometimes they put them other places." "No, I looked in the cranberry section." "See this is too much we only need 10oz, but this is 12oz." "Well give me a f-cking spoon and I will eat the other two ounces, right here and now." ...starts crying, "Why do you use such a hostile, disrespectful tone with me?" What I think: (maybe it's because a woman who functions just fine in a 250k a year job shouldn't be such a GD IDIOT about cranberries) What I actually say "I didn't mean any disrespect, was trying to be funny." "Well I don't find hostility funny, it's abusive" (now I'm "the abuser") and so on and so on (that's a real example btw, and indicative of a repetitive pattern)
donnamaybe Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I can't agree here, or at least am optimistic that it doesn't have to be this way. At least my behavior is certainly responsive to her likes and dislikes. If she doesn't like the music I like, I use headphones. If it irritates her that I walk around in sock feet, I wear shoes. If she doesn't like to discuss religion, I avoid that topic. These are tiny no-brainer things that don't rise to the level of even being an "issue" IMO. OTOH, any expectation of quid pro quo is always a huge deal and invitation to a lengthy discussion that can't be just dropped... ever. They take everything personally to the nth degree. One measure of what I feel like a successful relationship should be is adapting to each other. But IME, the "adapting" doesn't run both ways, doesn't in most of my friend's marriages and relationships either. If she picks up a brand of charcoal that I don't normally use, NBD, IT'S JUST CHARCOAL. But here's what I get: "But honey, I needed the 10 oz tub of crushed cranberries." "They were out of those so I got two 6 oz tubs." "But the recipe calls for 10oz, and I like the brand that comes in 10oz." "They were out." "Did you look all over the store? Sometimes they put them other places." "No, I looked in the cranberry section." "See this is too much we only need 10oz, but this is 12oz." "Well give me a f-cking spoon and I will eat the other two ounces, right here and now." ...starts crying, "Why do you use such a hostile, disrespectful tone with me?" What I think: (maybe it's because a woman who functions just fine in a 250k a year job shouldn't be such a GD IDIOT about cranberries) What I actually say "I didn't mean any disrespect, was trying to be funny." "Well I don't find hostility funny, it's abusive" (now I'm "the abuser") and so on and so on (that's a real example btw, and indicative of a repetitive pattern) I just don't get why anyone would want an overly critical, complaining whiner in their life. That behavior would make it impossible to enjoy going home. Your home is supposed to be your sanctuary, not your torture chamber.
Author Woggle Posted May 12, 2011 Author Posted May 12, 2011 I just don't get why anyone would want an overly critical, complaining whiner in their life. That behavior would make it impossible to enjoy going home. Your home is supposed to be your sanctuary, not your torture chamber. Some people don't show this side until years into the marriage and for a man if he leaves he often loses his right to be a father to his kids and everything he worked for.
welikeincrowds Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 What I think: (maybe it's because a woman who functions just fine in a 250k a year job shouldn't be such a GD IDIOT about cranberries) I don't mean to minimize your issue, but that was really funny.
carhill Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I'll just say my experiences in MC taught me to accept other people for who they are, express my needs, wants and feelings and accept their reactions as their truth and outside of my control. This quantum change in perspective freed me to be far happier within myself and changed my whole life for the better. I apply it in all aspects of living. This change also eliminates aspects of 'overly critical, complaining, whiner' from my demeanor, some of which I markedly displayed prior. It's a healthier world, for me anyway. An amicable divorce, revitalized friendships and new business opportunities are the result. Life goes on, hopefully healthier physically and emotionally. I hope the same for my exW and former MW/OW. YMMV.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Some people don't show this side until years into the marriage and for a man if he leaves he often loses his right to be a father to his kids and everything he worked for. Wow I can't even imagine a poor sap who married this before finding out about it. For me it starts at about 3-4 months, like clockwork, once we are exclusively dating and they are sizing me up for LTP. They don't dare start this stuff until they feel like I have foreclosed other options, and am at least on the hook a little bit. This is why relationship advisors say to never let them think they got you, and Carhill hints at that also, and there's some wisdom to that, but that can be a kind of insincerity that breeds distrust and insecurity, another problem. I don't want to carry on a relationship giving the false impression that I have one foot out the door at any given time.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I don't mean to minimize your issue, but that was really funny. Thanks, it's supposed to be a humorous rant. The serious part of it is that a self-respecting man will build up baggage after going through the same thing 20 or so times, and using baggage to navigate relationships is both unfair and a sure prelude to failure.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I just don't get why anyone would want an overly critical, complaining whiner in their life. That behavior would make it impossible to enjoy going home. Your home is supposed to be your sanctuary, not your torture chamber. I used to get out right after it starts, but after a point, you realize you are gonna have to put up with some of it. I'm certainly not perfect either. The disappointment comes as it accelerates and increases past the point of tolerability around 6 months or so. If I accept or deflect most of the bad behavior, I'm a doormat, or at least she makes that critical error in her estimation of me and becomes disdainful, then I'm gone instantly. If I "manhandle" the behavior, she gets insecure and starts an entirely different strain of bad behavior, trying to make me jealous (not ever a good idea with a man who has self-respect, ladies), or acting out in other ways. Catch 22
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I'll just say my experiences in MC taught me to accept other people for who they are, express my needs, wants and feelings and accept their reactions as their truth and outside of my control. This quantum change in perspective freed me to be far happier within myself and changed my whole life for the better. I apply it in all aspects of living. This change also eliminates aspects of 'overly critical, complaining, whiner' from my demeanor, some of which I markedly displayed prior. It's a healthier world, for me anyway. An amicable divorce, revitalized friendships and new business opportunities are the result. Life goes on, hopefully healthier physically and emotionally. I hope the same for my exW and former MW/OW. YMMV. Well if counseling helped you find healthy relationships without these elements, good for you and congratulations.
donnamaybe Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I used to get out right after it starts, but after a point, you realize you are gonna have to put up with some of it. I'm certainly not perfect either. The disappointment comes as it accelerates and increases past the point of tolerability around 6 months or so. If I accept or deflect most of the bad behavior, I'm a doormat, or at least she makes that critical error in her estimation of me and becomes disdainful, then I'm gone instantly. If I "manhandle" the behavior, she gets insecure and starts an entirely different strain of bad behavior, trying to make me jealous (not ever a good idea with a man who has self-respect, ladies), or acting out in other ways. Catch 22 The thing is, why does that type of behavior have to be dealt with at all? I understand having differences, i.e. different activities that you like, different TV shows or music, different ways of approaching things, but the type of behavior you've described sounds like something that would come out of a spoiled 7 year old.
carhill Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Well if counseling helped you find healthy relationships without these elements, good for you and congratulations. Since, I've been faced with some unhealthy relationships/potentials, and, indeed, the 'new and improved people-picker' has helped me either avoid them altogether or, if not dangerously unhealthy, approach them with a more balanced emotional style. I find, even though cliche, that acceptance of the real is a large component of that balance. If the real is happy and satisfying, accepted. If painful and hurtful, accepted, and anything in between. Note: acceptance should not be construed as 'doormat'. It means accepting the actions/words/circumstances as reality and then taking healthy steps personally to either communicate boundaries, enforce them with word or action, protect oneself if in danger, or walk away, with a myriad of intermediate responses interspersed, along with graciously accepting and reciprocating the loving and caring actions of others. Essentially, forgetting the word 'but'. Take it, accept it, process it, move on. It's not perhaps the widely recommended path, but it has made my life a better place and, hopefully, the lives of those I love a better place as well. The world has seen so much abuse and pain and hurt. Sad, really. No doubt I played my part in that. What choice will I make today?
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 The thing is, why does that type of behavior have to be dealt with at all? I understand having differences, i.e. different activities that you like, different TV shows or music, different ways of approaching things, but the type of behavior you've described sounds like something that would come out of a spoiled 7 year old. I don't mean this to sound snide or flippant at all, but have you dated an American woman in the last 25 or so years? If so, for longer than a couple of months? If you had, you would likely know exactly what I'm talking about, and would have experienced the same things I have with the same frequency.
donnamaybe Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I don't mean this to sound snide or flippant at all, but have you dated an American woman in the last 25 or so years? If so, for longer than a couple of months? If you had, you would likely know exactly what I'm talking about, and would have experienced the same things I have with the same frequency. Well, I am an American woman, and I can guarantee you that my man wouldn't have put up with behavior like that for one second. Don't get me wrong - I've seen some of these gals in action, and they boggle the mind. But I suppose for every woman (or man) who is ready to throw a hissy fit over nothing, there has to be someone willing to put up with 'em.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Since, I've been faced with some unhealthy relationships/potentials, and, indeed, the 'new and improved people-picker' has helped me either avoid them altogether or, if not dangerously unhealthy, approach them with a more balanced emotional style. Have improved my own people-picker immensely also, via experience and not so much counseling. The problem is that there comes a point when the people-picker is working as it should with the sad result that no people are picked despite the fact that one is exposed to orchards full of prospects.
carhill Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Accepted Yes, I know what you mean. I'm happy being alone, so it's OK. YMMV.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Well, I am an American woman, and I can guarantee you that my man wouldn't have put up with behavior like that for one second. Don't get me wrong - I've seen some of these gals in action, and they boggle the mind. But I suppose for every woman (or man) who is ready to throw a hissy fit over nothing, there has to be someone willing to put up with 'em. At this point, I'm happier alone, but hope to get to a place, geographically, mentally, culturally/socially, or emotionally, where being alone doesn't bring more personal benefit via peace and harmony than being with someone.
donnamaybe Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 At this point, I'm happier alone, but hope to get to a place, geographically, mentally, culturally/socially, or emotionally, where being alone doesn't bring more personal benefit via peace and harmony than being with someone. And that's healthy! Much better to be alone than to settle for someone who is going to make your home life worse than it is when it's just you there. Besides, if you saddle yourself with some crazy bee-yotch, you won't be available when someone good crosses your path.
Author Woggle Posted May 12, 2011 Author Posted May 12, 2011 I am married to an American woman myself and she nothing like that either. I don't think all or even most women are like that but I understand the effect that being with a woman like that has on a man. It's especially hard when he treats her the way most women say they want a man to treat them only to have her use it as a weapon against him. It is very hard to get over that bitterness.
sanskrit Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Based on personal experience and that of friends and others, I think that most American women are like that. That's OK, I think most American men suck too, just in different ways. Seinfeld said 95% of the population is undateable, and where I won't go that far, he's fairly close.
RecordProducer Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 (edited) A relationship isn't a game, it's a series of interactions between two people. You sound like you've never been in one! Sometimes I fear for the future of the republic... Oh my God! Edited May 12, 2011 by RecordProducer
Stung Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 I don't mean this to sound snide or flippant at all, but have you dated an American woman in the last 25 or so years? If so, for longer than a couple of months? If you had, you would likely know exactly what I'm talking about, and would have experienced the same things I have with the same frequency. I have dated several American women in the past 20 years. We were both women so we talked about our feelings and relationships more than some men would like, and sometimes we might have thought certain things were important that men would be less likely to place weight on, but I never once had any of them drone on and on about thread counts, or throw a hissy fit about the wrong brand or 2 extra oz. of some grocery item. I have seen that type of woman, sure, but I'm not attracted to them and I don't attract them. I'm sure it's frustrating for you, I wouldn't want to date that either--but the common denominator actually seems to be you.
Author Woggle Posted May 12, 2011 Author Posted May 12, 2011 I have dated several American women in the past 20 years. We were both women so we talked about our feelings and relationships more than some men would like, and sometimes we might have thought certain things were important that men would be less likely to place weight on, but I never once had any of them drone on and on about thread counts, or throw a hissy fit about the wrong brand or 2 extra oz. of some grocery item. I have seen that type of woman, sure, but I'm not attracted to them and I don't attract them. I'm sure it's frustrating for you, I wouldn't want to date that either--but the common denominator actually seems to be you. With all due respect a relationship between two women is much different than one between a man and a woman. You don't have all these nasty gender issues that plague relationships today.
samspade Posted May 12, 2011 Posted May 12, 2011 Of course a woman will say she's got a "great man" if he lets her off the hook for being a cheat. What would you expect? It's the least she can say, when deep down she knows she has a beta pushover with no self-respect. In this context, "great man" is womanese for "tolerates my having my cake and eating it too."
Author Woggle Posted May 12, 2011 Author Posted May 12, 2011 Of course a woman will say she's got a "great man" if he lets her off the hook for being a cheat. What would you expect? It's the least she can say, when deep down she knows she has a beta pushover with no self-respect. In this context, "great man" is womanese for "tolerates my having my cake and eating it too." Very true and if he doesn't tolerate it he is a man chauvinist pig who wants to control her. I think some people that knew us just expected me to let my ex cheat on me and treat me like garbage while I worked my butt off to support her.
Recommended Posts