no1uknow Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Do A's ever really end without a D-Day? My AP have been on and off so many times I'm starting to feel like a light switch.
fascinated Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I think there's lots of reasons an affair can end other than D-Day just like friendships that drift apart or the dynamic and priorities change.
26pointblue Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I felt the same way & we did have a D-Day [quite a few of them]. I was beginning to wonder if ours would ever end. I finally realized that xMM would never end it with me, or make a decision & act on it & stick with it, even though that's all I kept asking him to do & all his wife kept asking him to do. It would come down to his wife finally divorcing him, me finally leaving him for good, or maybe we would just go on like that forever, with his wife being upset but not really doing anything, me being upset but not really doing anything, & xMM claiming to be upset but actually happy eating cake, & never doing anything. It was no way to live, it's a miserable half-life & I am glad I found the strength to end it & am trying to find the strength to end it for good, as in, knowing for sure in my heart that I will never talk to him again or be with him again even no matter what.
siuys Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I felt the same way & we did have a D-Day [quite a few of them]. I was beginning to wonder if ours would ever end. I finally realized that xMM would never end it with me, or make a decision & act on it & stick with it, even though that's all I kept asking him to do & all his wife kept asking him to do. It would come down to his wife finally divorcing him, me finally leaving him for good, or maybe we would just go on like that forever, with his wife being upset but not really doing anything, me being upset but not really doing anything, & xMM claiming to be upset but actually happy eating cake, & never doing anything. It was no way to live, it's a miserable half-life & I am glad I found the strength to end it & am trying to find the strength to end it for good, as in, knowing for sure in my heart that I will never talk to him again or be with him again even no matter what. I so agree with this. In my case too I now realise he was probably glad on some level that I ended it. If I hadn't taken control, the situation would still be the same. I remember months ago when he moved back home and ended things with me, he was a coward and only did it via email, and then only stuck to his decision for mere days. It's really up to us to control what we can control – which is OUR ACTIONS, NOT theirs.
26pointblue Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I so agree with this. In my case too I now realise he was probably glad on some level that I ended it. If I hadn't taken control, the situation would still be the same. I remember months ago when he moved back home and ended things with me, he was a coward and only did it via email, and then only stuck to his decision for mere days. It's really up to us to control what we can control – which is OUR ACTIONS, NOT theirs. Whenever xMM & I ended it was always my decision but I know what you mean about it feeling like he was relieved. His wife called me & said he is addicted to me & not strong enough to stop talking to me so I had to stop talking to him. She was right. And I think he was glad I was the one who made the decision & wouldn't let us be together because he knew he'd keep it up indefinitely if I let him. But I compare that to how he went frantic & crawled back to his wife when she kicked him out & I see who he really wanted to be with. Even though he told me he loved me & wanted to really be with me, his actions made it clear that he really wanted to stay married & keep me on the side as an affair, which is another thing his wife told me that she is right about. This is such a hard & painful process but honestly I'm glad I am the one who can get out of the triangle. I am glad I'm not the one married to him & that shows me that it's a good thing that I am where I am, even when it hurts.
26pointblue Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Another thing I remind myself of Siuys is that I deserve someone who can give me a whole love & all of himself & who is sure he wants to be with me. I think I'm kind of getting off track here but I just wanted to share that in case it helps you. I know it's a simple concept but it's hard for me to remember sometimes.
siuys Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I agree with all you said 26pointblue. This back and forth, hot and cold, yes and no is just ridiculous. We did not have a d-day but let me tell you, his flip-flopping was beginning to look old and pathetic, and yes, am so pleased I am not married to him. By the end of it, despite feeling hurt, I was starting to lose respect for him, and felt sorry for him – hardly a basis to have a R.
Irishlove Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 My MM and I went back and forth like a light switch about four or five times. I finally said forget it and backed out. I never contacted him. He contacted me and said he couldn't do it. He realized his marriage was just going back to the way it was when he was unhappy. I had already made up my mind to divorce my H way before remeeting MM. Now MM and I both have divorce papers filled out and at attorneys offices. We are very much in love. It's been a bit over a year but worth hanging on. I was skeptical because not everyone has a happy ending and there is nothing saying that we will have one but we sure are going to try. We have already lived together during that time so we know what it's like in that dept. I honestly believe it's best to step back and NOT have any contact and let them go.
siuys Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 My MM and I went back and forth like a light switch about four or five times. I finally said forget it and backed out. I never contacted him. He contacted me and said he couldn't do it. He realized his marriage was just going back to the way it was when he was unhappy. I had already made up my mind to divorce my H way before remeeting MM. Now MM and I both have divorce papers filled out and at attorneys offices. We are very much in love. It's been a bit over a year but worth hanging on. I was skeptical because not everyone has a happy ending and there is nothing saying that we will have one but we sure are going to try. We have already lived together during that time so we know what it's like in that dept. I honestly believe it's best to step back and NOT have any contact and let them go. Good luck, Irishlove. The odds are stacked against most I'm afraid. Well, certainly in my case. And enough of subjecting myself to all this drama which I really would rather not have. So yes, despite it hurting still, I have let him go.
26pointblue Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 I agree with all you said 26pointblue. This back and forth, hot and cold, yes and no is just ridiculous. We did not have a d-day but let me tell you, his flip-flopping was beginning to look old and pathetic, and yes, am so pleased I am not married to him. By the end of it, despite feeling hurt, I was starting to lose respect for him, and felt sorry for him – hardly a basis to have a R. Wow yeah I can totally relate to everything you're saying. I too lost respect for xMM & started to see him as someone who is weak & unable to make up his mind & act on it. I want a strong man who stands by his convictions. I suppose that if xMM was the type of person who did that, he never would have embarked on an affair. And honestly if I was the type of person who lived by my values or who wasn't okay with accepting less than I wanted out of a relationship I would not have entered into the affair. I look back & see that I made big painful mistakes because I loved him, & that 'love' is never a reason to forget my values or settle for less than what's best for me. Especially because it ended up getting me no where, & as we're saying even if I had 'won' him than I would have a man who can so easily flip-flop, lie, & not follow through with what he promises. I am really trying to become the type of person I want to be & learn from this experience, & honestly I hope that xMM is doing or can do the same thing. I am not trying to judge him & I realize that the fact that I was with him like that for so long says something about me in addition to what it's shown me about him. I think that xMM has gone or will go back to the status quo & not have the opportunity to learn & grow from this - he is taking the easy way out & told me with his words & actions that he did not value or cherish his marriage, just like he showed me with his actions that he didn't value or cherish me -- he was just doing what felt the least complicated & most fun for him at all times. So I don't see him changing but I do hope he changes so that he can find happiness, & I am beginning to see that if that does ever happen, it will be too late for me. I will have moved on & cannot go back. It's good to talk to someone who knows where I'm at, thanks for the comments.
fooled once Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 Do A's ever really end without a D-Day? My AP have been on and off so many times I'm starting to feel like a light switch. Yes affairs can end without a d day. And just because someone goes to a lawyer and fills out papers does not = divorce. Filing with the court and having the marriage legally ended = divorced. I believe if someone really wants out of a marriage, there will not be flip-flopping. Flip flopping = not being sure to me.
26pointblue Posted May 6, 2011 Posted May 6, 2011 My MM and I went back and forth like a light switch about four or five times. I finally said forget it and backed out. I never contacted him. He contacted me and said he couldn't do it. He realized his marriage was just going back to the way it was when he was unhappy. I had already made up my mind to divorce my H way before remeeting MM. Now MM and I both have divorce papers filled out and at attorneys offices. We are very much in love. It's been a bit over a year but worth hanging on. I was skeptical because not everyone has a happy ending and there is nothing saying that we will have one but we sure are going to try. We have already lived together during that time so we know what it's like in that dept. I honestly believe it's best to step back and NOT have any contact and let them go. Irishlove, it's ironic that I was holding onto xMM thinking that it would all be worth it in the end when, you're probably right that the only way to have gotten there was to step back and let him go. I am happy that your relationship is working out & I wish you the best. For me I am ready to be done with the hoping & waiting & drama & I need to be done with it for good, but first I have to be ready to do what it takes to be done with it for good, & do it.
Author no1uknow Posted May 7, 2011 Author Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) When I look at it objectively, it seems crazy that so many OP have a hard time doing what Irishlove did - set an ultimatum. After all, if your AP loves you as much as they say they do, what do you have to worry about? And yet the fear creeps in, and we cave, and things inevitably go back to being the way they were. Ugh. Why are these things so damned hard? Edited May 7, 2011 by no1uknow
siuys Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 I don't really believe ultimatums work. I don't believe they work because they pressure the other party to do something that they may not REALLY want to, or ready to do. If they are ready, they will do it anyway. Years ago a friend of mine gave her long term bf an ultimatum – get married or she was out of there. He did marry her, but the M lasted only two years. I think he felt obliged to, rather than really wanting to. Not saying it's like this in every case, just from what I observed. I, too, gave xMM an ultimatum – move out or this R cannot continue. Well, he did move out. But was he ready? No. Did he think he was ready? Probably. Fast forward 12 months, he told me he was moving out again. Did he think he was ready? Yes. Was he ready? Far from it. I also believe love alone is not enough. The guy is married with kids. He has major detachment issues. It's scary to walk away from a 20-year marriage. To turn his life upside down. The divorce, the trauma, the lost dreams and hopes he had with his family... He might one day do it, he might not. He might be able to fix his M, he might not. Does that mean he did not love me? No. I just don't think he loved me enough. And he is too scared to turn his life upside down, or to leave his family for someone he has known for 14 months... or maybe I am all wrong and off the mark. Maybe I'll never know. What I DO know, however, is that I must accept the situation, learn the lessons, and move on. I wish him luck, I really do. But more importantly, I need to take care of me now...
Kismetly Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 I don't really believe ultimatums work. I don't believe they work because they pressure the other party to do something that they may not REALLY want to, or ready to do. If they are ready, they will do it anyway. Years ago a friend of mine gave her long term bf an ultimatum – get married or she was out of there. He did marry her, but the M lasted only two years. I think he felt obliged to, rather than really wanting to. Not saying it's like this in every case, just from what I observed. I, too, gave xMM an ultimatum – move out or this R cannot continue. Well, he did move out. But was he ready? No. Did he think he was ready? Probably. Fast forward 12 months, he told me he was moving out again. Did he think he was ready? Yes. Was he ready? Far from it. I also believe love alone is not enough. The guy is married with kids. He has major detachment issues. It's scary to walk away from a 20-year marriage. To turn his life upside down. The divorce, the trauma, the lost dreams and hopes he had with his family... He might one day do it, he might not. He might be able to fix his M, he might not. Does that mean he did not love me? No. I just don't think he loved me enough. And he is too scared to turn his life upside down, or to leave his family for someone he has known for 14 months... or maybe I am all wrong and off the mark. Maybe I'll never know. What I DO know, however, is that I must accept the situation, learn the lessons, and move on. I wish him luck, I really do. But more importantly, I need to take care of me now... Wow Siuys. That's a really painful and really insightful post. Thanks. I got tears in my eyes at those last two sentences. K
Spark1111 Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 When I look at it objectively, it seems crazy that so many OP have a hard time doing what Irishlove did - set an ultimatum. After all, if your AP loves you as much as they say they do, what do you have to worry about? And yet the fear creeps in, and we cave, and things inevitably go back to being the way they were. Ugh. Why are these things so damned hard? I think many a MM counts on your sweetness and vulnerability and fear to cave. And I do not believe it always intentional. Flip-flopping is the best sign of conflict avoidance. Think about it. No decision has to be made as long as there is an uninformed spouse taking care of home and hearth, and an AP willing to be available to take care of the romantic needs. That is why so many espouse a firm NC, whether it is spouse or AP, because it forces the MAP to make a decision and stick to it. Think about it: The MAP's indecision is being tolerated by both the AP and the spouse (albeit, unknowingly). Get out of limbo, hop off the fence, s**t or get off the pot, and let's all move on with a more authentic life.
26pointblue Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 I don't really believe ultimatums work. I don't believe they work because they pressure the other party to do something that they may not REALLY want to, or ready to do. If they are ready, they will do it anyway. Years ago a friend of mine gave her long term bf an ultimatum – get married or she was out of there. He did marry her, but the M lasted only two years. I think he felt obliged to, rather than really wanting to. Not saying it's like this in every case, just from what I observed. I, too, gave xMM an ultimatum – move out or this R cannot continue. Well, he did move out. But was he ready? No. Did he think he was ready? Probably. Fast forward 12 months, he told me he was moving out again. Did he think he was ready? Yes. Was he ready? Far from it. I also believe love alone is not enough. The guy is married with kids. He has major detachment issues. It's scary to walk away from a 20-year marriage. To turn his life upside down. The divorce, the trauma, the lost dreams and hopes he had with his family... He might one day do it, he might not. He might be able to fix his M, he might not. Does that mean he did not love me? No. I just don't think he loved me enough. And he is too scared to turn his life upside down, or to leave his family for someone he has known for 14 months... or maybe I am all wrong and off the mark. Maybe I'll never know. What I DO know, however, is that I must accept the situation, learn the lessons, and move on. I wish him luck, I really do. But more importantly, I need to take care of me now... Wow, I feel like I could have written this post [if I were as eloquent a writer as you are & if I were thinking more clearly right now.] I feel like our situations & thoughts about it are so similar. I too gave xMM an ultimatum & he did move out & I thought that meant we were proceeding with us but he wasn't ready - he wasn't ready to get divorced & he wasn't ready to give me up, so he was just floundering around doing whatever he could do to keep both . . . & now I realize he stayed that way the whole time & nothing changed. I agree that if they're not ready it won't work, or if it does 'work' there is a big chance that there will be resentment. They have to be ready on their own & there's really not much we can do, even though they 'love' us, to make them ready if they're not. And for me, I gave up on the ultimatums also because I didn't want to force him to be with me. I finally realized that I was only in charge of what I did, so I could chose to be with him accepting the situation & hope he did the things required to be with me, or I could not be with him & miss him & still hope he would do those things. Finally I've found that the real answer, like you say, is to just stop worrying about him & what he's doing/not doing & just think about myself & move on with my life. That is really the only 'cure' for me I think. I agree with you about all the reasons to stay versus leave & the reasons that they stay. I think they accidentally use us as their emotional tampons because they are not happy in their situation but can't do what it takes to get out, or maybe they are happy with more of their situation than they let on, but something is still missing & so they use us to fill that void & it feels so good & like, how could this not work out? It took me a long time to wrap my head around the fact that it could feel so right, & like he was really going to do it, & then he doesn't. I think I kept feeling like, what was I doing wrong, or not enough, when really it wasn't about me. I know by the end that I gave him everything, I couldn't have loved him more or done anything better, & it still wasn't enough. I think that helped me find that answer that you are talking about, that there are reasons they stay that have nothing to do with us, so we may as well start putting our energy into ourselves & other people instead of into them, where it just kind of gets sucked up & wasted.
Irishlove Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Irishlove, it's ironic that I was holding onto xMM thinking that it would all be worth it in the end when, you're probably right that the only way to have gotten there was to step back and let him go. I am happy that your relationship is working out & I wish you the best. For me I am ready to be done with the hoping & waiting & drama & I need to be done with it for good, but first I have to be ready to do what it takes to be done with it for good, & do it. It's strange now that he has made up his mind because of all that flip flopping I have a 'whatever' attitude where as before I would be all over him trying to make him see that it's me that he needed. (In my mind) Don't get me wrong I'm still very much in love and I'm very glad we are together but that flip flopping was killing respect as you said. I look at him differently, without rose colored glasses. Now, he is just an ordinary man that HE has to hang on to me instead of the other way around. I'm a good woman and I was walking.
Spark1111 Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 Wow, I feel like I could have written this post [if I were as eloquent a writer as you are & if I were thinking more clearly right now.] I feel like our situations & thoughts about it are so similar. I too gave xMM an ultimatum & he did move out & I thought that meant we were proceeding with us but he wasn't ready - he wasn't ready to get divorced & he wasn't ready to give me up, so he was just floundering around doing whatever he could do to keep both . . . & now I realize he stayed that way the whole time & nothing changed. I agree that if they're not ready it won't work, or if it does 'work' there is a big chance that there will be resentment. They have to be ready on their own & there's really not much we can do, even though they 'love' us, to make them ready if they're not. And for me, I gave up on the ultimatums also because I didn't want to force him to be with me. I finally realized that I was only in charge of what I did, so I could chose to be with him accepting the situation & hope he did the things required to be with me, or I could not be with him & miss him & still hope he would do those things. Finally I've found that the real answer, like you say, is to just stop worrying about him & what he's doing/not doing & just think about myself & move on with my life. That is really the only 'cure' for me I think. I agree with you about all the reasons to stay versus leave & the reasons that they stay. I think they accidentally use us as their emotional tampons because they are not happy in their situation but can't do what it takes to get out, or maybe they are happy with more of their situation than they let on, but something is still missing & so they use us to fill that void & it feels so good & like, how could this not work out? It took me a long time to wrap my head around the fact that it could feel so right, & like he was really going to do it, & then he doesn't. I think I kept feeling like, what was I doing wrong, or not enough, when really it wasn't about me. I know by the end that I gave him everything, I couldn't have loved him more or done anything better, & it still wasn't enough. I think that helped me find that answer that you are talking about, that there are reasons they stay that have nothing to do with us, so we may as well start putting our energy into ourselves & other people instead of into them, where it just kind of gets sucked up & wasted. And the bottom line is you are seeing first hand how he handles problems: He doesn't. Forget love and devotion (which may all be truly felt) but how does he deal with his problems? Because sooner or later every relationship hits a rough patch, every single one, even the one he will eventually have with you should he leave, and how will he handle YOUR problems? If he doesn't do so now, I am amazed how many APs believe with any certainty it will be so different for them in their future with their MAP. Because IMHO, you haven't had any real relationship problems, not yet. If he can sit on a fence forever with unresolved feelings, without making any decision, with avoiding true introspection and making any changes for the better in either one or the other relationship, this is a pattern of behavior. And if he does choose you, you will live with this also,
26pointblue Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 And the bottom line is you are seeing first hand how he handles problems: He doesn't. Forget love and devotion (which may all be truly felt) but how does he deal with his problems? Because sooner or later every relationship hits a rough patch, every single one, even the one he will eventually have with you should he leave, and how will he handle YOUR problems? If he doesn't do so now, I am amazed how many APs believe with any certainty it will be so different for them in their future with their MAP. Because IMHO, you haven't had any real relationship problems, not yet. If he can sit on a fence forever with unresolved feelings, without making any decision, with avoiding true introspection and making any changes for the better in either one or the other relationship, this is a pattern of behavior. And if he does choose you, you will live with this also, You are right. He has no problem-solving skills & I don't even know if he has the desire to gain them. He just does what's easy & fun by default & tries to cover his butt when that gets him into trouble. At the end he was handling all his problems by drinking. His wife always told him & at the end told me he is an alcoholic & I before I wouldn't have seen it, I thought he just liked to have a good time, but near the end he was dealing with me probably like he always deals with her: he would avoid any conflict & just go drink! It was so frustrating, I would say, please just talk this out with me & let's come up with a solution, why do you keep running away? And he would just do it again! I realized I couldn't change him. In fact sometimes he would become a petulant child, & if I said anything he perceived as critical about him he would just want to take his toys & go home. He would get mad at me for being hurt by something he did! I began to wonder how his wife could ever stay married to him let alone want to stay after she knew about us. Maybe it's awful to say but I started to be glad that she wanted to stay married to him because whenever she kicked him out he'd come to me [& then try to work his way back to her] & I started to think, you know, I really don't think I could live with him unless he changed . . . I thought he would change & that it was because of the situation but obviously I was naive because it kept getting worse instead of better. I kept seeing his true nature, or maybe just his bad side, more & more & it was actually pretty scary.
Author no1uknow Posted May 7, 2011 Author Posted May 7, 2011 I agree with you about all the reasons to stay versus leave & the reasons that they stay. I think they accidentally use us as their emotional tampons because they are not happy in their situation but can't do what it takes to get out, or maybe they are happy with more of their situation than they let on, but something is still missing & so they use us to fill that void & it feels so good & like, how could this not work out? It took me a long time to wrap my head around the fact that it could feel so right, & like he was really going to do it, & then he doesn't. I think I kept feeling like, what was I doing wrong, or not enough, when really it wasn't about me. I know by the end that I gave him everything, I couldn't have loved him more or done anything better, & it still wasn't enough. I think that helped me find that answer that you are talking about, that there are reasons they stay that have nothing to do with us, so we may as well start putting our energy into ourselves & other people instead of into them, where it just kind of gets sucked up & wasted. That pretty well sums up my situation too. And as of yesterday we're NC again. I guess. Not my decision, as usual. I'm so tired of being jerked around and treated like a problem that needs to be gotten over.
26pointblue Posted May 7, 2011 Posted May 7, 2011 That pretty well sums up my situation too. And as of yesterday we're NC again. I guess. Not my decision, as usual. I'm so tired of being jerked around and treated like a problem that needs to be gotten over. Yeah, get strong & get rid of him. I know what it feels like to reach that point. You've just had enough & you know you deserve better.
Breezy Trousers Posted May 8, 2011 Posted May 8, 2011 Yes affairs can end without a d day. I believe if someone really wants out of a marriage, there will not be flip-flopping. Flip flopping = not being sure to me. I agree. IMO, if a marriage is truly dead, it's dead. There will be no flip flopping. Those (rare) affairs tend to quickly move into committed relationships, regardless of the circumstances. I've seen it happen. If, however, someone is just a little bored with their marriage and in a rut, looking for a little excitement on the side, then love fog/New Relationship Energy can ensue from all the new attention & and that's when the flip flopping begins. Affairs will always be more exciting than marriages. Deep down, I think all MP know this and are reluctant to leave their marriages for a new relationship which is likely to settle into something resembling the first marriage anyway -- and be prone to the same temptations. Remember: the majority of all marriages begin with the same love fog/New Relationship Energy that affairs begin with. Married people know this, despite attempts later on to rewrite the history of their marriages upon meeting OW/OM. The problem is that when & if a love affair turns into a committed relationship with OM/OW, it will be prone to the very same temptations down the road. Temptations that the MP has already demonstrated he/she finds difficult to resist. When that line has been crossed once, it's easier to cross it again & again and can lead to serial cheating or serial monogamy. Naturally, neither BS or OW want to believe this. My husband's first affair ended without a D Day. It was more of a sexual fling for him, though.
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