zengirl Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I too am Buddhist. And yes, zengirl, people in general, haven't a single clue what they're talking about when the word 'karma' is hurled about. Karma (or kamma, in Pali) simply means Volitional action. That is, any action which is pre-meditated and deliberate. It can be carried out in 3 ways; Through what we think, through what we say, and through what we do. Kamma has consequences (Vipaka). "What goes around comes around" is both over-simplistic and inaccurate. And what people forget, is that we all generate Kamma-Vipaka. Whether you believe in it or not, is immaterial. Kamma is a natural process happening all the time, to everyone. It's not judgemental, it doesn't evaluate, it's not "a force to be reckoned with", it's not revenge, it's not pay-back. Kamma Just Is. You act, and you get a consequence. Be it positive, negative or neutral. Be it immediate or "down the line". The trick it to first and foremost,m watch the thinking. That's where it all begins. With what you think. Amend the thought to become positive or neutral, and the rest follows accordingly. If you develop a thought into formulating words, or enacting deeds, then you build the consequences. I once contributed in exactly this vein in another thread, and somebody came back with a comment along the lines of: "Oh right, TM, well we get what you as a Buddhist are defining as Karma, but we don't mean that kind, the kind we mean is payback, kick in the pants stuff". "Fine," I replied. "But then, it's not karma. So either use the term accurately, or don't bother, because you merely perpetuate ignorance, which makes you misunderstood and inaccurate. It also belittles the Dhamma (teachings of the Buddha) which is mildly disrespectful, and makes light of something Buddhists take very seriously." Just my 2 cents..... Yeah, I mean, I don't ask that anyone sanctify my religion or anything, but I just find it very confusing that somehow karma has a new meaning (which isn't in my copy of the dictionary either, BTW; I don't know if the commonly misused definition was added in a newer version---but not as of 2007). I have a thing with people using words correctly more than it bothers my Buddhism, but I do think, "What if I started using the word Jesus in a totally new way?" Christians would flip out if you made up a new definition for Jesus. And really, karma is as fundamental to Buddhism as Jesus is to Christianity, but Buddhists tend to 'roll with it' a bit more, so I cannot imagine them getting as outraged as Christians would if I just created some random, second definition for the word Jesus.
TaraMaiden Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 But also bad things happen to good people, in fact sometimes worse things happen to good people because "bad" people don't give a **** either way. Its just part of life. To Buddhists, this is what is known as strictly speaking, an Unconjecturable. There are several Points to Ponder which actually, have no immediate simple answers. the actual "Law of Kamma/Vipaka" is extremely complex and convoluted, and each question doesn't bring an answer, it just brings more questions, clouding and befuddling matters. Why DO bad things happen to Good people, and Good things happen to Bad people? The answer is that 'Bad' people are not 'bad' all of the time, (just as 'Good' people are not 'good' all the time) and furthermore, may not be 'bad' in the eyes of others. Bad people are bad, because we see them as bad, and as such, want them to get their come-uppance. But other people involved with them, might have a different point of view. So bad things happening to good people is exactly part of life. But it shouldn't be viewed as a punishment, or a judgement. Things happen, because things happen. Sometimes, events are accidental, sometimes they're part of a chain we become a link of, and sometimes, events happen because they're directly connected to our circumstances. But happen - they do. But there is some aspect of karma that still holds true I think, though I can't explain it. You can't explain it, because your understanding of it is muddled and confused. Actually, you have no idea, because you don't actually know what kamma even is. And I don't mean to insult or berate you, I'm merely pointing out that it's hard to explain something, if we don't have a clear picture of what that 'something' is. It's like asking you to talk for 10 minutes on a painting you've never seen, and is on an easel, beside you - covered by a mauve satin cloth. Yeah, I mean, I don't ask that anyone sanctify my religion or anything, but I just find it very confusing that somehow karma has a new meaning (which isn't in my copy of the dictionary either, BTW; I don't know if the commonly misused definition was added in a newer version---but not as of 2007). I have a thing with people using words correctly more than it bothers my Buddhism, but I do think, "What if I started using the word Jesus in a totally new way?" Christians would flip out if you made up a new definition for Jesus. And really, karma is as fundamental to Buddhism as Jesus is to Christianity, but Buddhists tend to 'roll with it' a bit more, so I cannot imagine them getting as outraged as Christians would if I just created some random, second definition for the word Jesus. People in general misunderstand what Buddhism is about, because to be frank, it's an alien concept. For a start, it's the only religion that has no Deity, or omnipotent figurehead. It's also the one religion AFAIK, that frowns upon proselytising or preaching. Put it this way - you won't find a Buddhist standing at a corner, yelling through a megaphone, about how people can be saved by calling on Buddha's name....! Furthermore, some associate it with pessimism, because part of its instruction is that "life is Suffering" (inaccurate) and that therefore it's spreading doom 'n' gloom.... so really, misunderstandings about Buddhist aspects, such as the one above on Kamma, are common, because people are unaware of how it all works. (I was going to say that people are ignorant about it, but the word 'ignorance' had derogatory connotations....) Most Buddhists are not as equally unaware of Christian aspects however, because most people following Buddhism in the west, have been exposed to varying degrees, to Christianity and biblical teachings. In brief, 'we' know more about Jesus than 'they' know about Buddha. And that's fine. That's just the way it is. It doesn't make a Buddhist bad for not following Christianity, and it doesn't make a non-Buddhist bad, for not knowing about Buddhism. it's just the way life is. Incidentally, I would never purposely misconstrue or misrepresent anything about Christian values, because I personally would consider that to be Wrong View/Intention, and disrespectful. Not criticising you or even implying anything, zengirl, just giving my own PoV.
Andy_K Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I find it more helpful to think of Karma in terms of spiritual consequences than physical ones. The worse your actions - deceipt, maliciousness, violence and so forth - the more you force yourself to disconnect with your spiritual self in order to function. Your level of conscience and empathy are necessarily lower, and therefore more of your self-fulfilment and general happiness is dependant on material things. This makes the bad things that happen to you feel worse, and puts you further into the unhappy position of desiring more and more in order to be content. If you're an angry person, you receive a parking ticket, and it ruins your day, that's your Karma. If you're a happy/optimistic person, you receive a parking ticket, and it's just a blip on your bank account that you shrug off, that's your Karma. The world is your mirror.... but it's rarely an exact mirror.
vsmini Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I dated this one man, D, and we were together for about 2 years. He loved, admired, and respected me. Treated me like a queen. I wasn't mature enough to value those things and ran off to be with another man, F. I ended up actually leaving where his family was involved and he was sad in front of them. I felt sorry but in a removed, insincere, I-know-I-should-be-sorry sort of way. Fast forward 4 years later with F and I have my family coming to visit and celebrate. He cheats on me, crushes me in front of my family. Gives me the most insincere horse sh*t apology ive ever gotten in my life and it pretty much downward spirals from there. Me being a cheater in the past gave me insight to how little he thought of me, the relationship, and how there was no way he loved me. So ya, yay karma! I'd like to think im using the chance to right the wrongs though. I don't feel like this is Karma but more of a pattern that is common to a lot of women. You live and learn from it. When I was younger I was with a guy that treated me right, I treated him fine but no longer felt that 'special something' and left him for a more unavailable male. It had to do with my self-worth and I had it screwed up in my head that if I had to chase a man then he must be WORTH chasing. That's why "nice guys finish last" because many women think that if you're being treated like a queen then the guy is a pushover and something is wrong. The emotionally unavailable guy I was with last broke my heart but I learned so much from it and with out all that crap I dealt with I would not be able to appreciate the guy I'm with now that treats me like royalty - I probably would have just thought "jeez what is wrong with this guy." Not Karma - I think it's just an unhealthy dating pattern.
Disillusioned Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 What goes around comes around. That's not limited to dating. True, but sometimes one needs to give fate a push in the right direction.
Flgirl44 Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I don't feel like this is Karma but more of a pattern that is common to a lot of women. You live and learn from it. When I was younger I was with a guy that treated me right, I treated him fine but no longer felt that 'special something' and left him for a more unavailable male. It had to do with my self-worth and I had it screwed up in my head that if I had to chase a man then he must be WORTH chasing. That's why "nice guys finish last" because many women think that if you're being treated like a queen then the guy is a pushover and something is wrong. The emotionally unavailable guy I was with last broke my heart but I learned so much from it and with out all that crap I dealt with I would not be able to appreciate the guy I'm with now that treats me like royalty - I probably would have just thought "jeez what is wrong with this guy." Not Karma - I think it's just an unhealthy dating pattern. I agree that there are patterns that people have. I could go into all the subtle coincidences and not so subtle ones as well but what Im trying to get at, is that this scenario, no matter how common, is one that had too many parallels to ignore. I was put through that situation to learn and appreciate a good man when I find him. The word karma to me in this case meant more along the terms of fate. I have looked inward to see what draws me to certain types, there were ways I could've come to these same conclusions but I don't believe they would've made as large of an impact or evolved my thinking the way that it had, had it not been such a in-my-face sort of experience. This in-my-face experience I believe was brought about by forces unknown, much how you feel during synchronicities, it felt very much like it was supposed to be a part of my life as much as it hurt.
TaraMaiden Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I find it more helpful to think of Karma in terms of spiritual consequences than physical ones. The worse your actions - deceipt, maliciousness, violence and so forth - the more you force yourself to disconnect with your spiritual self in order to function. Your level of conscience and empathy are necessarily lower, and therefore more of your self-fulfilment and general happiness is dependant on material things. This makes the bad things that happen to you feel worse, and puts you further into the unhappy position of desiring more and more in order to be content. If you're an angry person, you receive a parking ticket, and it ruins your day, that's your Karma. If you're a happy/optimistic person, you receive a parking ticket, and it's just a blip on your bank account that you shrug off, that's your Karma. The world is your mirror.... but it's rarely an exact mirror. *Dr Phil Voice*: Yew eethur geddit orr yew deon't. An'jew don' geddit, doohyah?":laugh: Kamma is not the Consequence (spiritual or otherwise). Kamma is the original, deliberate Action. What you're describing is a commendable concept. And you may well "find it more helpful" to think of it as consequential. The behaviour you're describing is extremes of selfishness and egotism. But kamma (karma)...? It ain't.
snug.bunny Posted May 5, 2011 Posted May 5, 2011 I believe in Dark Matter. It's one the strongest force out there, yet transparent. How can that be? Cause and effect, yes it exists. But, I tend to look at it in terms of natural order, whereas things will unfold as they are meant to.
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