Crazy I think but I love her anyway

[greeneyedrebel]

Hello.

 

I've been with a woman who suffers from clinical depression/anxiety disorder for 4 years, and this April first she decided (again) that she wanted a seperation. The last time, she ranted and raved and I begged and begged for her to come back. When she got tired of staying at her mom's, she did come home. But nothing had changed, with the exception of me going into counselling. Within two months, it was the same situation again.

 

Emotional abuse on her part (towards me), flirting with others (her.....we have the same cell phone, I picked hers up by mistake one day and saw the texts but haven't said anything), the fits of depression, lashing out, blowing up a tiny thing like the store was out of x brand so I got y brand, and generally being a manipulative and controlling woman.

 

So this time, when she said she wanted a seperation, I am trying to do things differently. After the first few rough days, she said I'm still worth it and we just needed to cool off, find ourselves again, grow a little, get back self esteem and confidence....etc etc. I thought this sounded quite positive and way more mature than her usual outlook on anything. I agreed and we had a few days of peace, LC.

 

The first weekend, she decided to tell me she was going out of state, to see an friend. I asked the usual questions such as what her plans were, how long did she plan to stay etc. She says it's temporary, just a visit for a few weeks, and she was going at the end of may. I tried to be as supportive and encouraging as I could, thinking this might be a great opportunity for her to gain perspsective.

 

A few days later, it all came crashing down again, the 'visit' was 'maybe permanent', 'I want my own place', 'why won't you let me come home' etc. We had spoken at the end of the first week, and actually agreed that if she came home too soon and for the wrong reasons it would be another disaster.

 

I have spoken to my counselor about all of this, and he stressed the NC/LC, and agrees that if I don't get my self confidence and self esteem back, then I won't be able to make logical and rational/healthy decisions. He supports the separation, being fully aware of her depression/anxiety issues.

 

It seems when I big for her to come back, she pulls away. When I let go, she's insisting I don't care and am just keeping her away because I don't love her.

 

But I DO love her, and I really think that learning to stand on her own two feet could really help her, and us. She would be less likely to be so dependent/co dependent, would have more self esteem and perhaps it would help with the anxiety as well. Actually, if she ever saw her therapist it would help. It's been since about November since she's gone. Just sees the shrink for refills now and then.

 

Saturday, her brother ticked her off and it all exploded again. I was asking what he said about a certain thing, and she took that to mean that I wasn't supporting her, and yelled and screamed that it was over for good.

 

Granted, she has done this before. But the difference is this time she's not contacting me at all. None of the 'Do I have mail?' or other things she would do to keep some light contact.

 

I'm confused, I'm hurt, and I don't want to lose her. I just want her to grow up, put her money where her mouth is, and be a freaking adult instead of a spoiled child who thinks the world revolves around her and noone else's feelings or needs matter.

[greeneyedrebel]

If anyone has suggestions or advice, I'm open to it. This is very hard for me, knowing she can be such a different person from the one I have seen the past few months and really hoping (for both our sakes) that she can get herself healthy again and we can have a future.

[greeneyedrebel]

It's been a while since I said anything. But it hasn't gotten better. She reached out a little, mainly a list of everything I did wrong and what is wrong with me from her point of view. I try to do the NC and the LC, responding when she contacts me, but when the same additudes and problems crop up and I stand up for myself, I'm met with the same crap. The same fights, name calling and emotional and verbal abuse. I'm wondering about myself at this point.......

[Steadfast]

The heart never breaks evenly friend. The world is full of divorced people who love each other but there's more to a healthy relationship than love. She probably loves you, but she's greatly lacking in respect, insight and probably self-esteem. Tell me, does she treat everyone she knows like crap? Her texting friends or the men she flirts with? If the answer is no, you're her whipping post; stuck in place by the love you have for her.

 

Ask yourself is your love is stronger than your need. You believe she's better off with you than anyone else. She might be, but isn't that her decision? I sense you both have control issues. These are marriage killers.

 

To truly fix this relationship, she must know that keeping you is dependent on her changed behavior. She will not do this until she sees a stand from you, and if that drives her away, so be it. You made the right decision. In the meantime, prepare for life without her by reinforcing the things you personally need to be happy and productive. With or without her, you must maintain this. True love is a gift. Not an obligation.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Steadfast

[greeneyedrebel]

Thank you Steadfast. Yes, she treats everyone basically the same. I seem to get a more intense version, but the same basic behavior.

 

Do you, or anyone, know of loving, strong, respectful ways to express the keeping me depends on her changing her behavior?

 

No amount of NC or LC or counselling or books r anything else will matter if nothing changes, I do know that. And I can't make her listen, or care even if she does listen, much less actually make her make those changes.

[greeneyedrebel]

Maybe our wives are clones of each other....you mentioned sobriety. Mine had a prescription pain pill addiction (of course that was the fault of the Gyno who wrote the first prescriptions back when there were serious and painful female problems going on) and the fault of the ER docs who unknowingly gave her an RX here or there for the numerous 'accidents'. Has yours ever been kicked OUT of substance abuse therapy? I'm not quite sure how she managed that one, and I'm not sure I would have believed it if I hadn't seen the letter with my own eyes.

 

I still love mine too.....and that makes it all the harder. If I didn't....then packing up her stuff and moving it out wouldn't bring me to my knees.

 

"You can't fix crazy".....I like that. Sounds like a good phrase for a tattoo. Nice to know I'm not the only one is this boat. I appreciate all the replies, and yes..I'm taking them to heart.

[Downtown]

Rebel, the behavior you're describing -- temper tantrums, emotional abuse, push-away and pull-back behavior, black-white thinking, immaturity, and controlling behavior -- are the classic traits in a pattern of behavior called BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Whether those traits are so strong as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD is a determination only a professional can make. This does not mean, however, that you cannot spot a strong occurrence of such traits in a woman you've been living with for four years.

Emotional abuse on her part (towards me), flirting with others .... and generally being a manipulative and controlling woman.

Because BPDers have a great fear of abandonment, they typically try to control their loved ones to prevent the imagined abandonment from occurring. Although they will try to also be manipulative, they usually are not very good at it. To be successful, manipulation requires good planning and flawless execution. BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits), however, usually are too spontaneous and too reactive to their current feelings to carry out the plans very well.

But nothing had changed, with the exception of me going into counselling. Within two months, it was the same situation again.

Therapists see far more partners and spouses of BPDers coming into therapy than they ever do of the BPDers themselves. If you were living with a narcissist or sociopath, you would be just as miserable as living with a BPDer because you would be abused and devalued periodically. But you would not feel like you're losing your mind. Of the ten personality disorders (PDs), BPD is the only one with the reputation of making many of the partners feel like they are going crazy. The reason is that BPDers are so unstable that they alternate every few weeks from adoring you to devaluing you. This induces a feeling of craziness in many partners because they spend years trying to figure out what they are doing wrong (not realizing that the BPDer is emotionally unstable).

the first few rough days, she said I'm still worth it and we just needed to cool off, find ourselves again, grow a little, get back self esteem and confidence....etc etc. I thought this sounded quite positive and way more mature than her usual outlook on anything. I agreed and we had a few days of peace, LC.

When a BPDer is in a good mood toward you (i.e., "splitting you white), she is very VERY good. Indeed, she is so good that you will be willing to tolerate weeks of abuse in an effort to restore that wonderful, caring period. Over time, however, the good times will become spaced farther and farther apart. Yet, every time a good, calm, happy period returns, you will optimistically think "this sounded quite positive and way more mature than her usual outlook...."

 

All that has happened, however, is that you are now in the pull-back phase wherein she is trying to reel you back in due to her fear of abandonment. Yet, after you are back in the relationship, her discomfort will again start building due to her inability to handle intimacy. That is, you will start triggering her fear of engulfment and suffocation. At that point, she will create a nasty argument over nothing (or, alternatively, retreat in icy silence) to push you away. So the cycle will begin anew -- until after a period of years (about 15 years for most BPDers) she likely will permanently split you black.

It seems when I beg for her to come back, she pulls away. When I let go, she's insisting I don't care and am just keeping her away because I don't love her.

Like I said, when you draw close to her to reassure her of your love, you will trigger her fear of engulfment -- with the result that she will push you away by creating an argument over nothing. Yet, as you draw back to give her breathing room, you will trigger her other great fear: abandonment. Significantly, there is no Goldilocks position midway between "too far away" and "too close" for you to stand. I can confidently say that because I spent 15 years searching for it in vain. No matter what you do, you cannot avoid triggering one fear or the other.

Saturday, her brother ticked her off and it all exploded again. I was asking what he said about a certain thing, and she took that to mean that I wasn't supporting her, and yelled and screamed that it was over for good.

Throwing temper tantrums over small matters unrelated to you is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. The tantrum itself typically lasts about five hours.

I've been with a woman who suffers from clinical depression/anxiety disorder for 4 years, and this April first she decided (again) that she wanted a seperation.

Most BPDers suffer from both depression and anxiety. Medication can help reduce those side effects but cannot touch the underlying problem: a BPDer has damage to her emotional core that occurred at about age 3 or 4. Personality disorders cannot be medicated away. What is required is years of intensive therapy from a clinical psychologist who has the specialized training to treat BPDers. Sadly, it is extremely unlikely she will agree to enter into such a training program, much less be willing to work hard at it for several years.

Granted, she has done this before. But the difference is this time she's not contacting me at all. None of the 'Do I have mail?' or other things she would do to keep some light contact.

Like I said, a BPDer typically will eventually "split you black" permanently. With my exW, that occurred after 15 years. With your partner, it could have just occurred. Most likely, however, she will change her mind -- as unstable women do -- and try to reel you back in again in a few weeks (or months).

I'm confused, I'm hurt, and I don't want to lose her. I just want her to grow up, put her money where her mouth is, and be a freaking adult instead of a spoiled child who thinks the world revolves around her and no one else's feelings or needs matter.

You're confused because you're expecting her to stop acting like a 14 year old and grow up. The big problem -- if she is a BPDer -- is that her emotional development never reached the age of 14. Instead, it was frozen at the age of about four. That is, the behavior you are witnessing -- temper tantrums, self-destructive additive behavior, and lack of impulse control -- is what happens when a four year old has the body strength, cunning, and intelligence of a full grown woman.

 

Hence, if she is a BPDer, she has to close the gap between a four year old and her current age. She cannot do that without expert advice and guidance from a professional having specialized skills. Indeed, most psychologists do not have sufficient training and therefore refer such clients to colleagues that do. And marriage counselors are not sufficiently trained to diagnose BPD traits, much less treat them. Sadly, I would be surprised if as many as 1 in 100 BPDers have the self awareness and ego strength to stay in a therapy program long enough to make a difference.

She had a prescription pain pill addiction

Because BPDers typically cannot manage their emotions well and have little impulse control, it is common for them to have addictions to drugs, drinking, gambling, binge eating, or binge shopping.

 

If this discussion rings a bell with you, Rebel, I suggest that you take a look at my discussion of BPD traits in Inigo's thread. My three posts there describe what it is like to live with a BPDer. They start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2826453#post2826453. One of the posts provides a link to an excellent article on "Suriving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD." If you have any questions about the discussion, I would be glad to try to answer them here. Take care, Rebel.

[greeneyedrebel]

Downtown, reading that thread and the article felt a lot like somehow you had lived the last four years right alongside me. It's given me a lot to think about.

 

I do have a question though...if a 4 year old's behavior can be managed, and they can be 'trained' to a point......what skills and tips can you share for dealing with the BPDs?

[Downtown]

if a 4 year old's behavior can be managed, and they can be 'trained' to a point......what skills and tips can you share for dealing with the BPDs?

Rebel, by using the passive verbs in "can be managed" and "can be trained," you are implying -- probably unintentionally -- that a therapist somehow can fix her. That is not possible. Rather, only SHE can fix herself -- and it is highly unlikely she has sufficient self awareness and ego strength to want to do it.

 

In my case, for example, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to weekly sessions with 6 different psychologists over 15 years -- all to no avail. My exW simply played head games with them. Like the other PDs, BPD is ego-syntonic, i.e., is so natural to the dysfunctional way she has been thinking since childhood that the BPD traits are invisible to the victim.

 

Because my exW spent 15 years in therapy without making any progress I could see, I have no experience as to what works. But, at BPDrecovery.com, you will be able to communicate with dozens of self-aware BPDers who have been through therapy and thus know what has worked for them. They will tell you, for example, that DBT is one of the more successful therapies targeted at BPDers.

 

If I were you, however, I would focus on fixing your own issue. Any man who has been tolerating abuse from a BPDer for four years most likely has strong aspects of codependency in his personality, as I do. This means that you are an excessive caregiver. That is, your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are. This is why you were determined to help your exGF even at great harm to yourself. And this is why you are at risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you left.

 

Guys like us walk right past all the emotionally available women (boring!) until we find an unstable woman who desperately needs us. We do this because we have difficulty feeling like we are being loved if the woman does not desperately need us. Hence, we want to ride in, like the white knight, to rescue the damsel in distress.

 

This goal is a disaster, however, when we encounter BPDers, to whom we naturally gravitate. The problem is that they don't really want to be saved. Instead, they want to create a continual supply of drama to support their false self-image that they are "victims." This is why, every time you pulled your exGF from the raging seas, you saw her jumping right back into the water within two weeks.

[greeneyedrebel]

Well, I thought there was some progress but I think I was wrong. I hope in Downtown sees this, I would really appreciate their take on it.

 

There is a lot of strife between the other half and her mom. A lot of the same unhealthy behaviors and interactions that were going on between she and I. And of course, she's living with mom right now.

 

We had a couple of good days. My truck broke down, and she offered to help me out, being a ride home from the shop etc. And I accepted. Well, she wanted to make a few stops, so I agreed. And we ended up having a good time. Actually laughing and such. The truck was fixed a lot sooner than expected (instead of needing new hood hinges and a tune up, it just needed the tune up because the hinge was fixable after all...but that's not really the point), so she dropped me off at the shop. I actually bought her a card in thanks on the way home, and I had agreed to drop off certain items today.

 

This morning, the lashing out began again. Accusations of having all this fun and totally enjoying myself while she was in misery with mom. I tried to deflect them, 'I'm sorry you two aren't getting along...', asking what happened etc. And, based on how Friday went, asking her to come somewhere with me. Aparrently her mom fussed about something, and I was the target.

 

That got me accused of changing the subject and a whole new round of accusations. Including her stating she was moving to another state to live with a friend because she was so miserable. And that if she did that because I refuse to allow her to come home ("You said I'd always have a home there and now you won't let me come home"), that was it we were over. I did my best to stay calm and try to diffuse the situation (tips for diffusing a situation with a BPD..diagnosed or not...anyone?)

 

At this point I was already on my way to a place near her mom's. I pulled off, and calmed myself down, and then headed to her mom's to drop off the items I promised and the card. That didn't go so well. Verbal attack city.

 

I do admit that me asking if I mattered, or if any of my thoughts or feelings or needs mattered....added fuel to the fire of course. But it's a natural reaction when you are being verbally attacked and blasted. At least to me.

 

She demanded the key to her mom's back (I have/had a key...we had some stuff in storage there) and I gave it back. Still trying to calm her down and diffuse the situation. I offered to start moving my stuff out, since she was yelling that it was over, F*** you, etc. So I left.

 

I finished my errands, shook up etc, and she started the text messages again. It's all my fault, I could have changed this etc. She wants to come home. Like right now. Despite nothing being different. She said it's either she comes home, or she moves to Michigan.

 

On one hand, she has said stuff like this before. Down to the giving back the key etc. And in a few days, it's a different story. Threats of moving all the remainder of her stuff out, taking back the dresser her brother wasn't using and didn't want that the family gave me....all of it.

 

About an hour of peace, and then the same thing again. But this time she calls. Of course nothing I have to say matters in this call, it's all about her demanding to come home NOW...or she's gone.

 

7 out of every 10 things she says she will do, she never does. So I really don't know if there is any truth to any of this. Shortly before my first post her, she went through some of this.

 

And I can spot many lies. Yesterday she says her bank account is messed up, in the red. And she has only about 50 bucks in cash left. So how the heck could she buy a plane ticket to Michigan today? Really? I think she forgets half the stuff she says.

 

Earlier this week, it was her texting and claiming she was in the ER, badly dehydrated etc. But when I saw that evening to drop off some stuff she asked for, I didn't see a single IV mark or needle mark on either arm or hand.

 

She swears we can work all this out under one roof. I doubt it. How....when having a conversation by text or email or phone falls apart so quickly? I tried to explain that I'm uncomfortable with that because things haven't changed. I even wrote them out, specific examples and how/why they hurt and bother me so. I really feel like nothing I think, or want, or need, or feel or experience matters unless it fits some strange script already in her head. I feel manipulated and pushed about the coming home thing, I feel used, disrespected, disregarded....all of that and more.

 

I just don't know what to think. Do I need to unpack the dresser and go furniture shopping? Do I just wait it out?

 

I didn't intend for this to be so long. Sorry about that.....

[Downtown]

I have spoken to my counselor about all of this, and he stressed the NC/LC, and agrees that if I don't get my self confidence and self esteem back, then I won't be able to make logical and rational/healthy decisions.

Rebel, I agree with your counselor that you should stay LC so you can stop being beaten down long enough to see clearly.

There is a lot of strife between the other half and her mom. A lot of the same unhealthy behaviors and interactions that were going on between she and I.

She had to get her BPD traits from someplace (through heredity and/or abuse). Now you know the likely source.

This morning, the lashing out began again. Accusations of having all this fun and totally enjoying myself while she was in misery with mom.

Like I said, she thinks of herself as a perpetual victim. Your role as "savior" during the honeymoon supported that twisted self image of hers. You could be a savior for only six months, however, because it was possible only while she was infatuated. For the rest of your life, you will essentially be the "perpetrator" on whom she will blame every misfortune. That is, you are a trash can in which she can dispose of all mistakes and bad thoughts so she can avoid the pain of intense shame -- and so she can hang onto the only thread of a self image she has: being a victim. Is that what you want for your life? Being the evil perpetrator, the trash can?

We had a couple of good days. ... actually laughing and such.

When BPDers are good, they are very VERY good. They typically are so good that the "Non" partner is willing to spend a lifetime trying to figure out what he is doing wrong so he can return to those wonderful moments. The problem, of course, is that there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix it.

I just don't know what to think.

I believe you do -- at an intellectual level. You understand intellectually that your W has the emotional development of a four year old, which is why she is behaving like a spoiled child. Yet, learning about BPD on an intellectual level is the easy part. You can do that in a few weeks. What is hard is internalizing the information -- converting knowledge into wisdom -- so that you feel it to be true at a gut level. To do that, you have to bring your inner child (i.e., the intuitive, emotional part of your mind) into alignment with your adult logic.

 

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to accomplish that. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it. Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.

 

My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for forty years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability?

 

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me a little was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped the most was coming to this forum where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child learns primarily from emotional experiences -- not from logic.

 

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. They will quickly tell you they never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of their subject matter until they had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research. Hence, what I found most helpful, Chris, is talking about it to anyone who listens and writing about it to anyone who writes back.

 

For all human beings, it seems true that the inner child makes at least 90% (if not 95%) of the important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it. What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

 

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow that concept.

 

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child.

 

This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (codependency) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming that knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts. Simply stated, I had to persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own codependency are correct. Had I failed in that effort, I would have remain stuck in a destructive pattern -- repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots.

I feel manipulated and pushed about the coming home thing, I feel used, disrespected, disregarded....

As long as you feel that the toxicity is something SHE is doing to you, you will mistakenly believe you are powerless to change your circumstance. The truth is that it takes two willing people to form a toxic relationship lasting several years. Her role -- being the spoiled child and "the victim" -- is obvious. Your role is less obvious but nonetheless is very real. As the stable person in the marriage, you've been the glue holding it together. You've done that by choosing to walk on eggshells all the time and allowing her to throw hissy fits and temper tantrums like a young child.

 

To stop being the "enabler" of her childish behavior, it is important to have time to yourself so you can heal and build your personal boundaries and self esteem back up to a level that protects you. This is why your counselor is so insistent on your staying NC or LC until you have time to heal and start thinking clearly. Remember, Rebel, you don't have to make any permanent decision regarding divorce/marriage today. So please don't let your W's childish demands push you into making such a decision before you are stronger and ready to make it.

[greeneyedrebel]

Thanks Downtown.

 

I tend to be a very logical person, working with computers and the law.....and you're so right...logic does not work with her in any fashion. Trouble is, I never was good with children.

 

She swears (for the 100th time) that it's over and she'll get a uhaul and come get stuff etc.....but history between us shows that sometime tomorrow, or Monday evening at the latest, she'll be asking for something or wanting to see me.

 

I'm glad I stood strong today and didn't give in like I did in Feb when she begged and pleaded and manipulated me into hauling her home. My child and adult have a lot to talk about if I can figure out how to get them to communicate.

 

My therapist came as close to saying 'Don't you dare reconcile yet' as I think he can legally get. He told me running back in would be a lot like waking into a gunfight without a weapon or body armor. Well, it made sense to me.

 

Thanks man.....your words always help. And give me a lot to think about.

[Downtown]

Trouble is, I never was good with children.

The way to handle children -- and this would include your W -- is not to punish them but, rather, let them experience the logical consequences of their own actions (as long as they are not running into traffic or something). With your W, this means building your personal boundaries back up so you know where "Rebel" ends and "the W" begins. With your boundaries being low (as is typical for us caregivers), you are mistaking HER problems (e.g., lousy relationship with her M and her decision to abandon you) with YOUR problems.

 

You have been harming your W by trying to solve her problems for her and by allowing her to behave as a child without experiencing the logical consequences of throwing tantrums (e.g., H deciding to separate for several months). If you want her to behave as an adult, you must allow her to experience those consequences -- which means you must set boundaries on what behavior you will tolerate and then enforce those boundaries. This is not punishing her. Rather, it is allowing her to suffer the logical consequences just like any other adult must do.

 

As long as you continue to enable such behavior, you are destroying any chance she has of confronting her BPD traits and starting to learn how to manage them. As long as you continue being her soothing object -- calming her down all the time -- she has no opportunity to learn how to do self soothing and how to manage her own emotions. As long as you continue allowing her to blame all her mistakes and misfortunes on you, she will not have an incentive to take responsibility for her own actions. I did those things for 15 years with my exW -- always trying to "be helpful" and to protect my exW. I am encouraging you not to follow down that same path. It does not end well.

you're so right...logic does not work with her in any fashion.

Yes, I made that point earlier. Immediately above, however, I was making a more subtle point -- that logic will not work very well with YOU either for a while because you have to give your inner child time to catch up with your adult logic. Where loved ones are involved, there is no way that a caregiver like you will enforce his personal boundaries properly until you've had time to feel -- at a gut level -- that it is right for you to do so. Again, this is why your counselor wants you to take several months to heal and get a much clearer perception of your relationship. You have to be away from the toxicity of the relationship for a while before you can really see it for what it is. By the way, congratulations for standing strong today, Rebel. Edited May 22, 2011 by Downtown

[htctouchpro2]

i really dont trust the "staying over a friends" place. once things become vague then that means they are hiding something

[replicant_83]

Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.

 

Reading your posts it's uncanny how I just saw my life being described.

 

I started researching about BPD and reading you has been an eye opener, it's just cleared my mind to so many things that had happened in the past.

 

Like you said, when it was good it was unbelievably good!! I also struggled to leave him and first time I took that decision I felt so guilty to be leaving a person I love "just" because I wasn't strong enough to help him (that's what my mind told me)

 

But then there were the constant demands for attention, the constant hypochondria that would just be used to make me feel guilty. Example: He would always say that he had cancer at the first sign of a pain or cough. If I said he should check it out he would just kill me , saying I was making him feel worse. If I said it was nothing he would say I did not love him or care for him. It was this to the point of madness and he always used a disease or fear of it to prevent me from doing something, from going somewhere, etc. It drove me mad.

 

The extreme!! mood swings, the depression, the lies. Right now I'm still not sure what was truth or lie :S

 

Sometimes I would say to him, "you are acting like a child, always making demands, always playing victim" He would throw horrible tantrums when there was something on his PC he could not fix! To the point of breaking his own stuff!! And I would try so hard to reason with him, nada. No rationalization would make him feel better, nothing. At some point I would just listen and let him vent it all but he would just then start to direct his anger towards me and hurt me until I was floored, shattered.

It was then that he would feel better. Now I see it so clearly. He would only improve when I was destroyed.

 

Well, sorry to have hijacked the thread. I have been going to BPD family boards to read more and try and get through this

 

greeneyedrebel, stay strong, wish you all the best.

[greeneyedrebel]

repliant,

 

 

It's quite all right. I feel that hearing how others have gotten through a similar situation is helpful. So please don't apologize.

 

You guys destroyed his own stuff? Wow......any chance it was stuff you had bought for him or had some sentimental attachment too? I could be completely wrong here (and I'm sure someone will point it out if I am) but perhaps if it was stuff YOU got him or had the sentimental value, then by destroying it he could kill two birds with one stone by also lashing out at you?

 

Maybe us guys don't save every ticket stub from movie dates a petal from each flower...but we can be sentimental too.

 

Are the two of you still together, or did it end?

[replicant_83]

greeneyedrebel,

 

He destroyed, I never did anything like that. But he would never touch things HE bought or things that I bought for him and he would really like. Only things that belonged to other people, like vengeful children.

 

He would get mad with really small stuff. Rage fits for a computer program that would have a problem. A package taking a bit long to get delivered. A small pimple on his face - not joking. He would think he had cancer if he had a sour throat.

Like a kid he would make a scene and trash his room. He would see red and not care of consequences. Not care what he said or who he hurt.

 

Several times he threatened to kill himself, kill his family, or mine! When I would tell him I wanted to leave him he would say the same to me. Really horrid things, that would leave me so broken that only then would he stop.

 

Imagine living with someone like that, where you just could not know if the next day would be heaven or hell.

Sometimes we had things arranged and he would just cancel them last minute because his grandmother pissed him of or his mother blackmailed him. So I had to be the one to relinquish is company because this 30 year old man had to stay and keep his parents company all the time.

 

After 5 and a half years of trying to help this man with his life and his head I just could not go on anymore. When he refused to come see me here - we had not seen each other for over a year - I ended it all.

 

He said I had changed, was not the same woman - he knew this was the worst thing he could tel me- but it wasn't true per se, I was just emotionally exhausted.

 

I just...he never listened to my pleas. Frustrating is an understatement here. I felt going slowly insane, to the point where I would justify his actions, trying to rationalize it.

My father raised me with very solid values and moral. I am a ery independent and rational person, and it was that part of me that started -slowly - to awake and take over the scared and needy one that only wanted to get back to the awesome golden days.

 

I packed some of the things he gave me cause I just cannot bear looking at them. I can't even look at photos of him or us together.

Don't know if I hate him or me more for having put up with this for so long..

[Downtown]

Replicant, I am so glad that you found Rebel's experiences and the BPD information helpful in obtaining a sense of closure with your separation from the exBF. I agree with you that your exBF's behavior exhibits strong traits of BPD. I just posted a response in your thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3414133#post3414133.

[greeneyedrebel]

Replicant, I hope the knowledge and suggestions here help you.

 

As for me, I have received my copy of "Stop Walking on Eggshells", and I am finding it enlightening.

 

Sunday started out well, she and I were working on a project I had promised to help with at her mom's. She had an idea of how to proceed, but there was a safety issue. So I spoke up, trying to calmly and kindly point out that it was a good idea overall, but that I had certain concerns. With anyone else I know, that would have been fine. A simple exchange about the concerns and how to solve them...and we go on. Well, it blew up quickly, and she stormed off, leaving me in the backyard alone. Then came back a few minutes later and basically ran me off. Ok. I left.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping the book can help give me some strategies and other useful information to add to what I've learned from Downtown and others here so far.

[Downtown]

Rebel, thanks for giving us an update. I'm glad to hear that you are reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. Five years ago, I found it to be a great comfort when I was going through the separation period forced on me by my exW. That book will explain how the best you can do, when trying to have a sensible discussion on a sensitive matter, is to validate the BPDer's feelings (without necessarily agreeing with them). My experience, however, is that, no matter how calm the BPDer is when you raise an issue, you have a "calm window" of only 6 to 10 seconds before her emotions become intense and you are left talking to a four year old.

[greeneyedrebel]

Yeah, I noticed that 'calm window' too. Last night I was able to do the validating feelings bit, and it helped diffuse a situation. Today.....I tried it and no luck.

 

In the past week, three times she's sworn she was coming to pack up all her stuff and is moving out of state (with what money I wonder.....she has no job and even going by bus is expensive....) and hasn't done it yet.

 

Makes it hard to take anything she says seriously. If I act on what she says, I'm left with a lot of unnecessary preparations. But if I don't, and she does follow through, then I 'didn't take her seriously'. But how do you take them serious when 99% of what is said...is just empty words?

 

Her mom ticked her off, and I admit, her mom does a lot of the same things she does, and a few times when things were calm and communication was possible, I tried to talk about that. I thought if she could associate it with something that she personally experienced, it would help. Words went in one ear and out the other.

 

Today I was told to reconcile or lose her forever. Well, I said I wasn't ready and that we both had healing and learning and growing left to do before I was comfortable talking about reconcilliation but I did offer to sit down and talk about what we could both do to move in that direction. I was proud of myself for staying strong, but the resulting s**t storm was hard.

 

No amout of validating feelings or reflective listening etc was doing any good today. I still think she's off her meds. She ran out saturday morning, and cancelled her monday appointment to get a refil, slept through tuesday's rescheduled appointment, and unless a miracle happened yesterday or today...no appointment still. This obviously doesn't help things any.

 

So, I took the suggestions from the book, and called her mom. Just a brief voice mail message expressing that I was concerned becuase she had run out over the weekend and to the best of my knowledge hadn't been to get a refill.

 

Yes, I've asked her, but the question is avoided. And the behavior digresses along a predictable path as usual when the anti-depressives and anti-anxiety meds are not there.

 

I've taken the step of moving my valuables and important papers to a safe place in case she does come by and gets in a freaky mood. Right now I'm fairly well convinced it's another bluff, but I won't know until I get home from work tomorrow and see.

[Richard Friedman]

Lol you really think she moved to another state to "find herself?" Were you born yesterday? No doubt she's getting railed six ways to Sunday and loving every moment.

[greeneyedrebel]

She hasn't gone anywhere yet Richard. The point I was making is that she keeps saying she is, as if it's an attempt to hurt me or get some reaction out of me. Such as get me to beg her to come home, despite all the issues between us. Thoughts of infidelity are acutally a bit on the back burner right now. I'm more focused on myself and what I need to do for ME, and concern for her health in other ways.

[Downtown]

Rebel, thanks for touching base and updating us again. Like you, I found my validation efforts to have a marginal benefit, at best. You are still stuck with trying to live with a woman having the emotional development of a four year old. All the validation in the world is not going to change that. Validation therefore is most useful to the parents and spouses who are locked into a relationship with a BPDer.

[RacerXYZ]

I am so happy I found LS. I have been living with this for 12 years, constantly wondering what I did wrong to make her 'react like that'. I am finally realizing it's NOT ME!!! I am going to IC, but the last week on here reading these threads has really opened my eyes. Thanks to you all for making sense of a crazy situation!!!!

 

We are now separated, and I know there is nothing left for me to do. I still love her, but I realize I am in love with what we once had, and that is now gone and I need to move on.