fencesitter Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Hi everyone. I'm new and registered to get some unbiased opinions on how to decide when it's time to end my marriage. I am rather isolated and don't have many friends to call upon. The friends I do have unequivocally think I should leave. I am hoping for your help to brainstorm some questions to ask myself so that I can finally make my mind up. The facts: I have been married for a year and a half. No kids. Not my first marriage, but my husband's first. He has good, steady employment. I am a full-time student and self-employed. I have been seeing a counselor for about 8 months regarding this issue and we are on our 2nd marriage counselor. He didn't like the 1st one and we have seen our current one for a few months. The story: He is a highly functioning alcoholic and becomes verbally abusive when drunk. He can also be verbally abusive when sober and angry. Threats to divorce, kick me out, destroy property, financial sanctions... insults, abandoning me on vacation, dismissing my feelings and needs...sarcasm, intimidation, unrealistic demands, etc. Needless to say, our sex life is fabulous! Ha! Of course, he is not like this all the time. But I do realise the abuse cycle is at play. In the year and a half we have been married, we usually have a major incident once a month or two. Our previous therapist believes he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and/or is Borderline or ADHD. Our current therapist believes he is depressed and is abusive. On my end, I know I have some issues as well and am working on them. I think I have used the drama and chaos to avoid dealing with my own feelings. I am also too self-sacrificing and have allowed my life to become his life. I have been to Al-Anon and I believe I am making great progress with myself. I know on paper, our marriage does not look good at all. I have left him 3 times now and even filed for divorce once, but obviously I come back. I don't know why...the familiarity? I feel sorry for him? I have a plan in place in the event I do leave for good, and I feel excited for my future and the life I could create for myself. But I still feel so stuck like I don't know what I want to do. 4 days now after our last incident and he is on a new campaign to quit drinking and change himself. I don't know if I will ever trust him emotionally again. He has promised to change and quit drinking so many times now...wouldn't he have already changed or started that process if he were inclined to? Why now? I fear my faith and hope are gone. I don't know if I love him anymore. But I have this nagging feeling that "what if" there is a really great husband underneath it all and he really *does* change this time? Or what if I'm past the point of no return and just keep feeling numb towards him? So my query to you all- can you think of some questions I could ask myself to help me sort my feelings out? How can I determine if I am just done? Edited April 25, 2011 by fencesitter
trippi1432 Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 Hi Fencesitter - So sorry for what you have been going through, and you may not like what I am going to post...but from someone who has been through something very similar to your story....fifteen years is a long time to wait for change that won't come...and that was where my family and I were. The story: He is a highly functioning alcoholic and becomes verbally abusive when drunk. He can also be verbally abusive when sober and angry. Threats to divorce, kick me out, destroy property, financial sanctions... insults, abandoning me on vacation, dismissing my feelings and needs...sarcasm, intimidation, unrealistic demands, etc. Needless to say, our sex life is fabulous! Ha! Of course, he is not like this all the time. But I do realise the abuse cycle is at play. In the year and a half we have been married, we usually have a major incident once a month or two. Our previous therapist believes he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and/or is Borderline or ADHD. Our current therapist believes he is depressed and is abusive. On my end, I know I have some issues as well and am working on them. I think I have used the drama and chaos to avoid dealing with my own feelings. I am also too self-sacrificing and have allowed my life to become his life. I have been to Al-Anon and I believe I am making great progress with myself. I know on paper, our marriage does not look good at all. I have left him 3 times now and even filed for divorce once, but obviously I come back. I don't know why...the familiarity? I feel sorry for him? I have a plan in place in the event I do leave for good, and I feel excited for my future and the life I could create for myself. But I still feel so stuck like I don't know what I want to do. 4 days now after our last incident and he is on a new campaign to quit drinking and change himself. I don't know if I will ever trust him emotionally again. He has promised to change and quit drinking so many times now...wouldn't he have already changed or started that process if he were inclined to? Why now? I fear my faith and hope are gone. I don't know if I love him anymore. But I have this nagging feeling that "what if" there is a really great husband underneath it all and he really *does* change this time? Or what if I'm past the point of no return and just keep feeling numb towards him? So my query to you all- can you think of some questions I could ask myself to help me sort my feelings out? How can I determine if I am just done? Fencesitter - Why would you want to stay with an alcoholic that is verbally abusive and cycles (established a pattern) when both drunk and sober? My first inclination is to tell you to leave immediately and don't even think about coming back until he has completed the entire 12 step program. My next inclination is to tell you to do some introspection as to how you wound up in the relationship to begin with? That will help you determine if he is getting (so you don't feel sorry for him and go back when he is not fully recovered) and set the stage for healthier relationships in the future. Please keep posting.
Author fencesitter Posted April 25, 2011 Author Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for your reply Trippi. He is not going to work a 12 step program, he is reading the Allen Carr book. Not interested in AA or any sort of formal program, he claims for the chance of risking his government job/future security clearances, etc. I told him he will lose his job due to the drinking eventually if left untreated, but he is determined to go ahead and try to treat himself and see our marriage counselor solo. Not very encouraging. But the drinking is just a part of our problem anyway. I have reflected on why I entered the relationship in the first place and many of those reasons no longer apply. We dated and broke up, dated and broke up. So it has always been unstable. I believe that we were "compatible" due to his substance abuse (booze) and mine (pot). I have since cleaned up and gotten straight with the help of Al Anon and dedication to my religion/spiritual beliefs. I also believe I got into a relationship with him because we are both sort of loners. I was also struggling hard financially and I believed I had a better chance at finishing school with his support. I know that sounds horrible, but I did believe that marriage would be a stable bedrock from which I could go forth into the world and achieve my goals with a loving partner. My finances are in order now and I can achieve my education goals without his assistance (which he never provided anyway). It's ironic that I placed so much faith in this marriage, when in reality it has done nothing but thwart my goals and increase the difficulty of finishing school. The flip side is that it took the horribleness of the past year for me to finally face myself and begin to put my faith in my own abilities. These are the kinds of issues I have been working through in therapy. I grew up in an abusive home, so this kind of environment is...somehow comfortable to me, if that makes sense. Intimacy issues? Yes! I think I was also very lonely before we married. And he is a wonderful companion sometimes. I like having him around to banter with or talk to. I suppose this is what friends are for! Definitely a vulnerable area for me and I need to make it top priority to make some friends. I moved 2000 miles to marry him, so that has been a challenge in maintaining the few friendships I did have prior to the marriage. This week I will ask our marriage counselor what her suggestions are in absence of AA. (She has suggested that before and was promptly shot down.) I do believe she is well versed in abusive relationships and "gets it". So I am interested to hear her professional opinion on what treatments are recommended for our situation, if anything to wake me up to reality. I know I have a lot of denial going on. Which is one reason it is so important to hear the honest, unbiased feedback of a forum such as this. Right now, it is easier for me to trust an outsider's view of my marriage than my own warped perceptions. It just sucks because as screwy as it may sound, I will miss him so much. And his family. And I worry about him. It just breaks my heart. Edited April 25, 2011 by fencesitter
just_some_guy Posted April 25, 2011 Posted April 25, 2011 Without some solid program to end his drinking and resolve his own personal issues, I doubt he will ever be able to be a husband and partner in life. If this is the realization, then your right of self-preservation needs to take over. What about you? Would you be willing to go to Al-Anon to work through your issues from all of this? I ask not for his benefit, but for yours. That you are there and have been through all of this and persisted in it, kind of points at some things that would be good for you to work on in yourself.
Author fencesitter Posted April 26, 2011 Author Posted April 26, 2011 Oh yes, I am in Al Anon and individual counseling and doggedly determined to sort out my own role in this, or rather why I have been "comfortable" with it enough to allow it to continue. I admit I do have my own issues to work through, and am doing my best to grow and learn and do differently! Today in marriage counseling he said he would "go to a ****ing meeting" once a week. So there. I guess he told me.
trippi1432 Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 Hi everyone. I'm new and registered to get some unbiased opinions on how to decide when it's time to end my marriage. I am rather isolated and don't have many friends to call upon. The friends I do have unequivocally think I should leave. I am hoping for your help to brainstorm some questions to ask myself so that I can finally make my mind up. The facts: I have been married for a year and a half. No kids. Not my first marriage, but my husband's first. He has good, steady employment. I am a full-time student and self-employed. I have been seeing a counselor for about 8 months regarding this issue and we are on our 2nd marriage counselor. He didn't like the 1st one and we have seen our current one for a few months. The story: He is a highly functioning alcoholic and becomes verbally abusive when drunk. He can also be verbally abusive when sober and angry. Threats to divorce, kick me out, destroy property, financial sanctions... insults, abandoning me on vacation, dismissing my feelings and needs...sarcasm, intimidation, unrealistic demands, etc. Needless to say, our sex life is fabulous! Ha! Of course, he is not like this all the time. But I do realise the abuse cycle is at play. In the year and a half we have been married, we usually have a major incident once a month or two. Give it 5 years...10 years...15..... Our previous therapist believes he has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, Antisocial Personality Disorder, and/or is Borderline or ADHD. Our current therapist believes he is depressed and is abusive. On my end, I know I have some issues as well and am working on them. I think I have used the drama and chaos to avoid dealing with my own feelings. I am also too self-sacrificing and have allowed my life to become his life. I have been to Al-Anon and I believe I am making great progress with myself. Yep, did this too..... I know on paper, our marriage does not look good at all. I have left him 3 times now and even filed for divorce once, but obviously I come back. I don't know why...the familiarity? I feel sorry for him? I have a plan in place in the event I do leave for good, and I feel excited for my future and the life I could create for myself. But I still feel so stuck like I don't know what I want to do. 4 days now after our last incident and he is on a new campaign to quit drinking and change himself. I don't know if I will ever trust him emotionally again. He has promised to change and quit drinking so many times now...wouldn't he have already changed or started that process if he were inclined to? Why now? I fear my faith and hope are gone. I don't know if I love him anymore. But I have this nagging feeling that "what if" there is a really great husband underneath it all and he really *does* change this time? Or what if I'm past the point of no return and just keep feeling numb towards him? So my query to you all- can you think of some questions I could ask myself to help me sort my feelings out? How can I determine if I am just done? My exH was my second...I was his first. If I had it to do over, I would have left him at 1.5 years in...if we had not had a child, I would have left knowing what I know today. 15 years later, he blamed me for not leaving him and telling him to get sober. I did Al-anon, he did a couple of AA sessions...never would fully commit to therapy..sessions here and there. I'm not saying leave forever if you love him...I'm saying set a boundary and that is the drinking is NOT ACCEPTABLE...If he fixes it...he's back in..but set your boundaries now because alcoholics DO NOT know boundaries. And fencesitter...I'm going to keep going right back to your first post and highlighting it because anything else that you write from there on out is enabling and being in denial....believe me.
change Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 I fear my faith and hope are gone. I don't know if I love him anymore. But I have this nagging feeling that "what if" there is a really great husband underneath it all and he really *does* change this time? Or what if I'm past the point of no return and just keep feeling numb towards him? So my query to you all- can you think of some questions I could ask myself to help me sort my feelings out? How can I determine if I am just done? I don't want to encourage you to stay in an unhealthy relationship; your husband's problems are very different than mine. I've been depressed and neglectful. I've never, however, been abusive. All I want to add here is this: I think my wife is going through the exact same questions you are right now during our trial separation. She told me that what's happened was like "having her husband die" and then suddenly finding out in the last month (since she left and I turned my life around) that he is "still alive." Now she's isolating herself, dating other people, and attempting to make sense of how she's feeling. I'm ... praying with all of the might I have in me that I didn't figure out how to save myself and solve my problems too late. The point I guess I'm making here is that people can and do change. Staying with him is enabling. My wife's constant support was also enabling, in a way, because it let me continue to live in denial of the depth of my problems (not her fault in the slightest). But if you still think you love him at all, leave him. Walk away. And then give him the chance to pull it together. Don't wait until you're so spent and fed up that even if you DO have a chance to get your husband back... you don't want him anymore.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 Alright, so you have a screwed-up guy and quite frankly you are a screwed-up girl yourself. No offence, I just described my marriage as well. My personal opinion, if you aren't sure whether or not to be in or out, then be both. Hear me out..... A Healing Separation can be an excellent tool to decide what to do about a troubled marriage, it gives you the time and incentive to figure out you unencumbered by the relational conflict and stay connected in the marriage. It gives you a chance to stay out of your husband's insanity as well while he works on it (or doesn't). Then as the separation goes you can evaluate whether you can actually get your needs met in this relationship or not. See if your therapist will supervise a healing separation. I think that they are really important when dealing with an addiction and trying to reintegrate trust. http://jryankennedy.com/uploads/Handout-Healing_Separation_Explanation.pdf http://jryankennedy.com/uploads/Handout-Healing_Separation_Agreements.pdf
change Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 Alright, so you have a screwed-up guy and quite frankly you are a screwed-up girl yourself. No offence, I just described my marriage as well. My personal opinion, if you aren't sure whether or not to be in or out, then be both. Hear me out..... A Healing Separation can be an excellent tool to decide what to do about a troubled marriage, it gives you the time and incentive to figure out you unencumbered by the relational conflict and stay connected in the marriage. It gives you a chance to stay out of your husband's insanity as well while he works on it (or doesn't). Then as the separation goes you can evaluate whether you can actually get your needs met in this relationship or not. See if your therapist will supervise a healing separation. I think that they are really important when dealing with an addiction and trying to reintegrate trust. http://jryankennedy.com/uploads/Handout-Healing_Separation_Explanation.pdf http://jryankennedy.com/uploads/Handout-Healing_Separation_Agreements.pdf Thank you for posting those links. Other than my wife believing that she needs to date other people as a part of her process -- which she has explained to me, and I do get it (although I'm not pleased that she doesn't want to date me at this juncture) -- this is exactly what we're doing right now. She wants me to work on myself while she focuses as hard as possible on working on herself. We were communicating very well through this whole process, down to her letting me read sections she thought were relevent of her personal journal, but I kept the pressure to reconcile there... and so she pulled the plug on MC and on seeing each other in person, for the time being. I clearly didn't get that she needed that emotional space. She's in the rebellious stage right now, according to that handout. And she's also going through a crisis of wondering what it would be like to be single and the fantasy of that experience (we met at 19). I'm so much clearer on what she needs from this process. And on what I'm suppose to be doing in this process. It doesn't make me miss her less, but it does give me hope. I'm still terrified that if she actually starts dating and meets someone else... it will be over. But I also know from my own evaluation that she's NO WHERE NEAR healthy enough to be in a serious relationship. I think she knows that, too. So even if she ends up attached, it's not really the end. We're building a new relationship, and I have no idea what that will look like. Geez. I wish I'd seen this from the start. I wish I'd brought a print out of this to our last dinner together last week when we were trying to figure out what an ongoing separation would look like. I feel better about what I'm suppose to be doing. And I feel like doing what I'm suppose to be doing will eventually bring the relationship back around. I hope this feeling doesn't fade. Thank you again!
dreamingoftigers Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 Thank you for posting those links. Other than my wife believing that she needs to date other people as a part of her process -- which she has explained to me, and I do get it (although I'm not pleased that she doesn't want to date me at this juncture) -- this is exactly what we're doing right now. She wants me to work on myself while she focuses as hard as possible on working on herself. We were communicating very well through this whole process, down to her letting me read sections she thought were relevent of her personal journal, but I kept the pressure to reconcile there... and so she pulled the plug on MC and on seeing each other in person, for the time being. I clearly didn't get that she needed that emotional space. She's in the rebellious stage right now, according to that handout. And she's also going through a crisis of wondering what it would be like to be single and the fantasy of that experience (we met at 19). I'm so much clearer on what she needs from this process. And on what I'm suppose to be doing in this process. It doesn't make me miss her less, but it does give me hope. I'm still terrified that if she actually starts dating and meets someone else... it will be over. But I also know from my own evaluation that she's NO WHERE NEAR healthy enough to be in a serious relationship. I think she knows that, too. So even if she ends up attached, it's not really the end. We're building a new relationship, and I have no idea what that will look like. Geez. I wish I'd seen this from the start. I wish I'd brought a print out of this to our last dinner together last week when we were trying to figure out what an ongoing separation would look like. I feel better about what I'm suppose to be doing. And I feel like doing what I'm suppose to be doing will eventually bring the relationship back around. I hope this feeling doesn't fade. Thank you again! I have to go through it myself. Now as for her rebellion, try the Divorce Busters 180 and present the papers to her after a few positive interactions. Make sure that you can get her to do the separation under supervision of a therapist if at all possible because the spouse the does the running often needs to be held accountable. As well, when your spouse finally turns back around, you often feel like doing the running (natural human relationship balancing). Then you will need to be accountable. What fun!
change Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 I have to go through it myself. Now as for her rebellion, try the Divorce Busters 180 and present the papers to her after a few positive interactions. Make sure that you can get her to do the separation under supervision of a therapist if at all possible because the spouse the does the running often needs to be held accountable. As well, when your spouse finally turns back around, you often feel like doing the running (natural human relationship balancing). Then you will need to be accountable. What fun! She wanted to do marriage counseling and to hang out and enjoy each other's company up until last week, when she met with her IC -- and apparently started crying and said she didn't want the relationship. She's confused, because she's also thought about coming home. Her therapist suggested she might just be afraid of being alone, so now we're going through this and she is doing "what scares her." Right now, she says she can't determine my needs from hers -- and so we have no plans for future contact. No that there won't be any, since we share finances, etc., but right now she needs total space to clear her head. I clearly pushed too hard. She said she wanted to be won back, so I attempted to do that. Turns out it was too soon. I'm starting the 180 this week. That and a lot of prayer. She wants no accountability or responsibility right now. She wants to experience "freedom." Ok. Rambling. What I was going to say is -- do you think the healing separation can only work if both parties are in MC? We were, to me, on the right track less than a week ago. Now she's HARD running again (and excusing it as being "fearless"). Is this beyond help by the 180? I suppose as I type this, I'm partially answering my own question: It's not. Otherwise she would have said we should split up our stuff and she was done. She wouldn't have proposed the separation. She's a straight shooter and not prone to lying to save the feelings of others. Reality check, LS: Does this seem reasonable?
dreamingoftigers Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 She wanted to do marriage counseling and to hang out and enjoy each other's company up until last week, when she met with her IC -- and apparently started crying and said she didn't want the relationship. She's confused, because she's also thought about coming home. Her therapist suggested she might just be afraid of being alone, so now we're going through this and she is doing "what scares her." Right now, she says she can't determine my needs from hers -- and so we have no plans for future contact. No that there won't be any, since we share finances, etc., but right now she needs total space to clear her head. I clearly pushed too hard. She said she wanted to be won back, so I attempted to do that. Turns out it was too soon. I'm starting the 180 this week. That and a lot of prayer. She wants no accountability or responsibility right now. She wants to experience "freedom." Ok. Rambling. __________________________________________________________________ What I was going to say is -- do you think the healing separation can only work if both parties are in MC? We were, to me, on the right track less than a week ago. Now she's HARD running again (and excusing it as being "fearless"). Is this beyond help by the 180? I suppose as I type this, I'm partially answering my own question: It's not. Otherwise she would have said we should split up our stuff and she was done. She wouldn't have proposed the separation. She's a straight shooter and not prone to lying to save the feelings of others. Reality check, LS: Does this seem reasonable? The part below the line is a little fuzzy in some spots, you have to guess what your unnamed clauses are but I will say this: healing separation requires agreement from two and accountability from both. 180 is like doing a healing separation for yourself. Now since she is emotionally all over the place, you keeping centered helps ground the relationship. Think of yourself as a planet that captures a rogue moon in orbit. You don't do that by moving yourself all over the place. You stay in your orbit and get stronger, then you have more "pull" and the moon naturally gravitates towards you.
Olivia1966 Posted April 26, 2011 Posted April 26, 2011 But I have this nagging feeling that "what if" there is a really great husband underneath it all and he really *does* change this time? That's the hook that keeps people in abusive relationships. "But (s)he was so wonderful at the beginning! Couldn't it be that way again?" I really am not sure to what extent it's intentional, but it's a bait-and-switch scheme. You buy in, certain that you're getting this amazing person, but once you're hooked, it turns out you've gotten something completely different. 1
Downtown Posted April 27, 2011 Posted April 27, 2011 Fencesitter, you are describing the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). My posts in Katt's thread provide an overview of what it is like to live with a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong traits). These posts start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3361912#post3361912. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you here. If your H is a high functioning BPDer, as I suspect, the marriage counselors you're seeing will likely be a waste of time. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills will likely only make him better at manipulating you. It will not address his underlying illness because useful therapy must be provided in by a psychologist who is skilled in the techniques for treating BPD. MCs typically are not trained to diagnose BPD, much less treat it. Moreover, it is rare to find a high functioning BPDer who is willing to stay in such treatment long enough to make a difference in his behavior.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 27, 2011 Posted April 27, 2011 Fencesitter, you are describing the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). My posts in Katt's thread provide an overview of what it is like to live with a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong traits). These posts start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3361912#post3361912. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you here. If your H is a high functioning BPDer, as I suspect, the marriage counselors you're seeing will likely be a waste of time. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills will likely only make him better at manipulating you. It will not address his underlying illness because useful therapy must be provided in by a psychologist who is skilled in the techniques for treating BPD. MCs typically are not trained to diagnose BPD, much less treat it. Moreover, it is rare to find a high functioning BPDer who is willing to stay in such treatment long enough to make a difference in his behavior. In this case there are supports for dealing with BPD folks plus CBT therapy would be good for anyone to take so you could both go without it looking like the other one is the problem. As well BPD is essentially layers of PTSD in childhood which means that treatment through EMDR is very useful and did some nice things for my previously BPD-laden brain as well. BPD btw is somewhat spectral so your spouse would have to hit a certain number of criteria on a list of symptoms. Even if they fall short of that both CBT and EMDR could help work out many problem areas.
Author fencesitter Posted April 29, 2011 Author Posted April 29, 2011 Fencesitter, you are describing the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). My posts in Katt's thread provide an overview of what it is like to live with a BPDer (i.e., a person having strong traits). These posts start at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3361912#post3361912. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you here. If your H is a high functioning BPDer, as I suspect, the marriage counselors you're seeing will likely be a waste of time. Teaching a BPDer better communication skills will likely only make him better at manipulating you. It will not address his underlying illness because useful therapy must be provided in by a psychologist who is skilled in the techniques for treating BPD. MCs typically are not trained to diagnose BPD, much less treat it. Moreover, it is rare to find a high functioning BPDer who is willing to stay in such treatment long enough to make a difference in his behavior. Thanks for the link...I read your post and it does make sense to me. Our previous marriage counselor suggested (to me alone- she is now my individual therapist) that my husband showed traits of Borderline (and NPD). I have noticed an emotional cycle of about every month or two. He does seem to be quick to devalue and that has always confused me. Small things can trigger a great response. The alcohol, of course, just makes it all worse. He has not followed through with an AA meeting, but has made an appointment to see our marriage counselor on his own. I have decided to focus on my individual therapy for now and go back to Al Anon and work though my own codependancy issues. He said when he made the appointment, the therapist sounded like she "didn't really want to see" him...I don't know how he could come to this conclusion, but more like he is laying the groundwork to stop going already. I don't know if she is versed in BPD, but I know my therapist is so perhaps she can help me in my understanding of how it affects me and ways to cope. However, I don't want a marriage I have to "cope" my way through! He crossed a major milestone at work that promises to reduce his stress level there. I know that this matters little in the big picture of his behavior, but I mention it because it is one less excuse I will give him. As I sort through my feelings and learn more about BPD (honestly...to me it hardly matter "what" the problem is specifically, only that there is a problem that will not get better on its own or with greater communication skills), I think it is best to keep the possibility open that I will have to leave at some point. I can orient my business and school in such a way to keep myself logistically flexible. My line in the sand is the next abusive outburst. If he dies have BPD or NPD, it is inevitable.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 29, 2011 Posted April 29, 2011 Thanks for the link...I read your post and it does make sense to me. Our previous marriage counselor suggested (to me alone- she is now my individual therapist) that my husband showed traits of Borderline (and NPD). I have noticed an emotional cycle of about every month or two. He does seem to be quick to devalue and that has always confused me. Small things can trigger a great response. The alcohol, of course, just makes it all worse. He has not followed through with an AA meeting, but has made an appointment to see our marriage counselor on his own. I have decided to focus on my individual therapy for now and go back to Al Anon and work though my own codependancy issues. He said when he made the appointment, the therapist sounded like she "didn't really want to see" him...I don't know how he could come to this conclusion, but more like he is laying the groundwork to stop going already. I don't know if she is versed in BPD, but I know my therapist is so perhaps she can help me in my understanding of how it affects me and ways to cope. However, I don't want a marriage I have to "cope" my way through! He crossed a major milestone at work that promises to reduce his stress level there. I know that this matters little in the big picture of his behavior, but I mention it because it is one less excuse I will give him. As I sort through my feelings and learn more about BPD (honestly...to me it hardly matter "what" the problem is specifically, only that there is a problem that will not get better on its own or with greater communication skills), I think it is best to keep the possibility open that I will have to leave at some point. I can orient my business and school in such a way to keep myself logistically flexible. My line in the sand is the next abusive outburst. If he dies have BPD or NPD, it is inevitable. Seriously, been there. That isn't a manipulation, swear to God, that is his perception being mirrored off of his self-perception. BPD/NPD can't see the effects that they have on others. I do not say this from an outside viewpoint, but rather as someone who has had a major brain re-wiring after being diagnosed with BPD. He's avoidant but he will totally not know why he is or even that he is. One of the best ways to help him may be to limit contact for a bit. I bet that sends up a flag to you though. Been there too.
Author fencesitter Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 Seriously, been there. That isn't a manipulation, swear to God, that is his perception being mirrored off of his self-perception. BPD/NPD can't see the effects that they have on others. I do not say this from an outside viewpoint, but rather as someone who has had a major brain re-wiring after being diagnosed with BPD. He's avoidant but he will totally not know why he is or even that he is. One of the best ways to help him may be to limit contact for a bit. I bet that sends up a flag to you though. Been there too. Thanks, I appreciate your unique insight. I have noticed he perceives personal slights or attacks when there are none. If I don't give him his desired amount of attention at any given moment, I feel his mood shift and decline. The clinginess drives me bananas! And then I start to feel sorry for him...he is like a lost little puppy sometimes. Once he nearly had an altercation when a stranger getting on an elevator he was exiting didn't pause long enough to let him leave. This is BPD-ish? Because of our financial situation, separation is not possible. The only way I could leave would be to return home, 2,000 miles away to stay with friends. And, I know for certain that he would instantly devalue me and write me off. I have gone to stay with family, friends, and once to a hotel after particularly abusive incidents. He just sleeps and drinks and frequents strip clubs while I am away. The question is why I have always come back. I am getting my feet. I feel my time is limited in this marriage. I cannot take another round of craziness with him. I figure I have a few weeks, maybe 2 months max to get my proverbial ducks lined up. Anything else you can share about BPD would be most enlightening. I am doing some reading on this. He "only" seems to be abusive when he is drinking.
Downtown Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 FenceSitter, I agee with the excellent advice provided by DreamingOfTigers. As she observes, BPD traits appear as a pattern that -- like any spectrum -- varies in trait intensity from person to person. Significantly, these traits arise from the primitive emotional defenses we all rely on 24/7 when we are children -- and continue to occasionally use throughout our adult lives. That's why (as I discuss at the thread link above) we all occasionally exhibit all nine BPD traits throughout our lives. These traits only become a problem -- as seems to be the case with your H -- when they are sufficiently severe to undermine our ability to sustain LTRs with loved ones. Significantly, that threshold test (i.e., undermining your marriage) can be met when the trait severity falls well short of meeting the stringent diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." Psychologists have long known that one important failure of the current diagnostic manual (DSM-IV) is its binary (i.e., 0, 1) approach -- wherein a person either has or does not have a PD. This flawed classificatory approach means that an untreated BPDer satisfying 90% of the BPD criteria will not be diagnosed as "having BPD" even though you would be miserable trying to live with such a man. And he would be miserable living with you. This is why the APA is revising the manual to specify different severity levels in the new version (DSM-5, expected to be released in 2013). This new approach will better reflect the spectral nature of PDs that DreamingOfTigers mentions. In case you overlooked the link when reading my posts in Katt's thread, I note that there is a wonderful article explaining why it is so extremely difficult for Nons to leave their BPDer partners. It identifies ten misconceptions that the Nons typically have. The article is called "Suriviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD." The link for it is http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles9.htm. At that same website, there are another dozen excellent articles, most of which are written by professionals. While you are there (BPDfamily.com), I suggest you check out the forum, which is the largest BPD forum I've found that is targeted exclusively to us Nons (i.e., the nonBPD partners and family members). It is so active that it has a dozen message boards addressing various relationship types (e.g., parent, lovers, spouses, and children of BPDers) and relationship stages (e.g., "Staying," "Undecided," and "Leaving"). At each board, you can read the stories of hundreds of folks who went through, or are going through right now, exactly what you are experiencing. Because there are hundreds of millions of "Nons" like you and me, there are several other good forums like BPDfamily available to you. This illness is estimated to be about four times more common than bipolar disorder. Indeed, I suspect it is more common than left handedness (i.e., exceeding 1 out of 12). I say this because a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults found the lifetime incidence of BPD to be 6% for the general population. That is the share meeting the diagnostic threshold. Hence, if you add in the share of BPDers falling somewhat short of that threshold (but still having strong traits), I would not be surprised if the combined share rises to 9 or 10% -- well above the incidence for lefthandedness.
Tiberius Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 (edited) Yes yes and yes. How long will he be a "functioning alcoholic?" That can change of a sudden, also usually the abuse gets worse with time. Also http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=EC817409B6F772CC Edited May 2, 2011 by Tiberius
You Go Girl Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 First, as interesting as it is to read about diagnosing our loved one's when we don't understand their behaviors, it is totally inappropriate, and this I say having been there done that. We all have BPD traits, but when a person is a drinker, there is no diagnosing them by anybody successfully until they have kicked that problem, or are at least seriously working on it. Then the underlying conditions can be examined. I suggest you visit soberrecovery.com and visit the friends and family section and post your story there, and read the stickies at the top of the section. You will find that everybody who has a drinker in their lives has gone the route of trying to psychologically diagnose them, it is not unique, quite the contrary--it is extremely typical.
Downtown Posted May 2, 2011 Posted May 2, 2011 as interesting as it is to read about diagnosing our loved one's when we don't understand their behaviors, it is totally inappropriate.Nobody in this thread has claimed to be making a diagnosis. Indeed, the closest thing to a "diagnosis" here is FenceSitter's observation that her individual therapist believes her husband exhibits BPD traits. Clearly, the issue here is not whether we can diagnose BPD. Only professionals can do that. Instead, the issue is whether FenceSitter is sufficiently intelligent to spot strong traits of BPD -- i.e., recognize the red flags -- in a man she has been living with for years. My view is that, yes, she is able to do that -- which is why I suggested she read more about such traits so as to spot the red flags. Indeed, I believe she would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to not see a strong occurence of such traits. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about verbal abuse, icy withdrawal, irrational and inappropriate anger, inability to trust, instability, and a controlling nature. Before she even graduated from high school, FenceSitter already could recognize a strong occurrence of selfishness and grandiosity -- without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. She also could spot the class drama queen -- without diagnosing Histrionic PD. And she could recognize extremely shy students -- without having a clue as to how to diagnose Avoidant PD. Likewise, she can easily spot BPD traits because there is a world of difference between recognizing red flags and making a clinical diagnosis.
Author fencesitter Posted May 2, 2011 Author Posted May 2, 2011 Significantly, that threshold test (i.e., undermining your marriage) can be met when the trait severity falls well short of meeting the stringent diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." Yes, this is a good point. I am not hung up on "is it BPD or not". I really don't care what "it" is, only that "it" is making it impossible to have a loving, trusting, fulfilling marriage. For all I know we are just basically incompatible and a personality disorder or two doesn't even enter into it. In case you overlooked the link when reading my posts in Katt's thread, I note that there is a wonderful article explaining why it is so extremely difficult for Nons to leave their BPDer partners. It identifies ten misconceptions that the Nons typically have. The article is called "Suriviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD." The link for it is http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles9.htm. At that same website, there are another dozen excellent articles, most of which are written by professionals. I did read some of this website and found it most helpful. I will visit again. I read some of the forums- "undecided" and "staying". It seems to me that in order to live in such a relationship requires a sort of constant level of self-control, patience, and a host of other traits that I am unsure if I have the energy for. I recognize my own issues and faulty logic that got me into the marriage in the first place and now I am seeing it may be a long hard road to travel. I know marriage isn't easy for anyone and I don't feel this is a case of bailing when the going got tough...but I also know I deserve more than a man I may have to emotionally babysit for the rest of my life. I simply don't feel attracted to him or close to him or that he is trustworthy of my deepest personal stuff....and without that, what sort of marriage do I have? Well, I will give it a little more time. He has not gone to a 12 step meeting or read any more of his Allen Carr quit drinking book, so that is not encouraging in my mind. He has, however, remained sober though I am familiar with the concept of "dry drunk". And yes, I do know that most anyone can manage good behavior for a period of time...this is how we end up with people such as much husband. I have faith that his issues/drinking/whatever will eventually rear their ugly head again in due time without significant outside help. He has to cancel his therapy appt this week due to a death in the family. I am being a good recovering codependent and not interfering to see if he reschedules. I feel like the clock is ticking on my marriage.
Author fencesitter Posted May 2, 2011 Author Posted May 2, 2011 Yes yes and yes. How long will he be a "functioning alcoholic?" That can change of a sudden, also usually the abuse gets worse with time. Also http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=EC817409B6F772CC Thanks for the link, hehe. I do trust if he continues drinking that there will be significant consequences down the road. He has been incredibly lucky so far. Luck, as we know, runs out.
Author fencesitter Posted May 2, 2011 Author Posted May 2, 2011 First, as interesting as it is to read about diagnosing our loved one's when we don't understand their behaviors, it is totally inappropriate, and this I say having been there done that. We all have BPD traits, but when a person is a drinker, there is no diagnosing them by anybody successfully until they have kicked that problem, or are at least seriously working on it. Then the underlying conditions can be examined. I suggest you visit soberrecovery.com and visit the friends and family section and post your story there, and read the stickies at the top of the section. You will find that everybody who has a drinker in their lives has gone the route of trying to psychologically diagnose them, it is not unique, quite the contrary--it is extremely typical. Well, to be fair, I only started reading up on BPD when our marriage counselor suggested he had it, along with NPD. As I am not a trained mental health specialist, I'm afraid I am not qualified to diagnose people. Thanks for the link, I will check it out.
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