J200 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Hey if the female asks the male out, then she should theoretically pay right? Same principle different people have different opinions though. The male might still insist of paying, and anyway, even with close friends it's a fight for the bill, you don't get pissed if they grab it, you just be faster the next time When I pay, I will say I am going to the bathroom and get the bill from the waiter directly. I don't wait until it gets to the table so there is nothing to fight over.
Jazzari Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 It is OLD FASHIONED; I am not an old fashioned person and do not go by those old fashioned standards. I am PERFECTLY capable of opening my own doors. Why is not classy if a woman offers to pay for a man? Why is that not class? Why does it have to be the man paying for the woman? Wouldn't it show class if the guy accepted me paying? Why can't the guy be gracious and accept me paying? Why do I have to be the gracious one? I think the GUY should be gracious and let ME pay. How about that? I am sick of this crap about women always having to be gracious all the time; makes my blood boil. Let the guy be gracious for ones and ALLOW ME TO PAY.Same reason you don't pick your nose in public, spit, or sit with your legs wide apart. Class. Being able to accept a compliment or other polite gesture from a man is not a sign of weakness. Being offended when a man tries to do something nice for you or treat you well is just rude. And "why do I have to be the gacious one" sounds kinda whiny and childish. You have to be gracious because he's making the effort to be a gentleman. Appreciate it. But if you don't want to be gracious or classy, then don't. I'm sure there are men out there that will appreciate you. But don't be surprised that many will consider you a ball buster.
J200 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Same reason you don't pick your nose in public, spit, or sit with your legs wide apart. Class. Being able to accept a compliment or other polite gesture from a man is not a sign of weakness. Being offended when a man tries to do something nice for you or treat you well is just rude. And "why do I have to be the gacious one" sounds kinda whiny and childish. You have to be gracious because he's making the effort to be a gentleman. Appreciate it. But if you don't want to be gracious or classy, then don't. I'm sure there are men out there that will appreciate you. But don't be surprised that many will consider you a ball buster. If I am the one who is making a classy gesture by paying then the guy should accept and let me pay. Why can't HE be classy and accept it?
Jazzari Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 If I am the one who is making a classy gesture by paying then the guy should accept and let me pay. Why can't HE be classy and accept it?If you ask him out and he accepts, then I will agree with you. But if he asks you out, then you should allow him to pay. By all means, make the offer to split, but allow him to pay if he insists.
J200 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 If you ask him out and he accepts, then I will agree with you. But if he asks you out, then you should allow him to pay. By all means, make the offer to split, but allow him to pay if he insists. Fair enough but only the first time and I would only order like a soda and fries. I would insist on paying the next time. Allowing a man to pay for you all the time is really degrading.
Lilmisus Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I took my ex out on multiple dates when I wanted to go someplace. If he chose a place, then he'd pay. If he wanted to treat me to something, he'd pay. If I wanted to treat him to something..I'd pay. We never once split the bill, we just split the responsibility of paying (which I took most of it on). If a guy asks me out, I pretty much expect him to pay. If I ask him out though, I'd at least offer to split it.
Arikel Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 When I pay, I will say I am going to the bathroom and get the bill from the waiter directly. I don't wait until it gets to the table so there is nothing to fight over. Exactly, as long as both sides are gracious about the treating and being treated it's all good
Jazzari Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Fair enough but only the first time and I would only order like a soda and fries. I would insist on paying the next time. Allowing a man to pay for you all the time is really degrading.I wouldn't call it degrading, but I do wish I was able to pay my own way more often. My boyfriend is *much* better off financially than I am. I do pay occasionally, but its a hardship. If I didn't allow him to pay I wouldn't be able to go to the places/trips he wants. Which basically means we would have to break up. I'm not willing to give up a good relationship just because he happens to have more money than I do. And I won't ask him to sit at home just because I can't pay my share. He's more than able to pay my way and it makes him happy to do that.
Author Sarabina Posted April 23, 2011 Author Posted April 23, 2011 I am a woman and I like splitting the bill in HALF to the penny; even it is the man of my dreams! I hate this myth that women will only pay if they don't like the guy. I LOVE to pay even MORE when I am infatuated with a guy. I make good $; I don't need a penny from anyone. Not even a $1 drink or a $3 burger from In N Out (I don't remember the exact price but it's not exactly $3 but somewhere around there for a cheeseburger). I am so independent I moved out at 18 and never accepted a PENNY from my parents. I despise kids who have their parents pay for their college education or even help them buy a house...WTF. I was alone at 18 and super independent. Money is power. Feminism is having EQUAL FINANCIAL power. I would feel like a loser and want to commit suicide if some guy paid for me all the time; how embarrassing and humiliating to consider myself the "fairer sex". I am not one of those women who earn less than men and need a handout. In many cases I outearn men. I outearned my ex by many, many times. I don't need charity; I don't expect a free meal (even if it's a $3 cheeseburger) just because I have a vagina and wear heels... WTF I look DOWN on women who expect men to pay. I am also EXTREMELY modern and NON TRADITIONAL. AMEN! that is exactly how I feel/think. I think more women should be like this, what's the point of the feminist movement if women still want to be treated like it's 1950?
Author Sarabina Posted April 23, 2011 Author Posted April 23, 2011 Your missing one important point. Letting (not expecting) the man pay is just polite. Like letting him open doors. Sure, you can open the door yourself. But good manners says he should do it for you. It's just a way for him to show respect and class. Offering to pay is fine. Insisting upon it is a slap in the face. That mentality is very old-fashioned and it has nothing to do with manners. If you like to be traditional than good for you, but don't expect everyone to be the same as you.
Jazzari Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 That mentality is very old-fashioned and it has nothing to do with manners. If you like to be traditional than good for you, but don't expect everyone to be the same as you.I don't think it's old fashioned to expect manners from a man. Oh - and just to be clear. This is my OPINION. I don't expect you or anyone else to be the same. I enjoy hearing differing views and debating them. Sheesh! This is an excerpt from January 2011 - Date Night Magazine "Gentlemen open doors (car door is optional), walk on the traffic-side of the street and lead through crowds. Ladies go first when entering restaurants (and all establishments) and when following hostesses to tables. Ladies order first (please remember to respect cost. Ask him what he plans to order before making your selection). " As for who picks up the check: "Guys: I know this may be controversial, but I believe the onus is on the dude to pick up the bill for the first few dates, so choose somewhere you can afford. Don’t try to blow her away by blowing out your bank account. If you’re tight on cash, get creative! Girls: Be gracious. If he suggests burgers and beer – don’t be a diva. If his first choice isn’t your style, help him by steering him in another direction in the same price-point. (Note: even though he should treat, settle on an activity that you can afford just in case!)"
musemaj11 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 U can judge someone's generosity by the first date. a giving woman will even offer to pay for the both of you. If u find such a woman, u practically have zero worry of catching a gold digger. But then again, women like that are so rare that u porbably will have a better luck finding a mermaid. Lol
J200 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I don't think it's old fashioned to expect manners from a man. Oh - and just to be clear. This is my OPINION. I don't expect you or anyone else to be the same. I enjoy hearing differing views and debating them. Sheesh! This is an excerpt from January 2011 - Date Night Magazine "Gentlemen open doors (car door is optional), walk on the traffic-side of the street and lead through crowds. Ladies go first when entering restaurants (and all establishments) and when following hostesses to tables. Ladies order first (please remember to respect cost. Ask him what he plans to order before making your selection). " As for who picks up the check: "Guys: I know this may be controversial, but I believe the onus is on the dude to pick up the bill for the first few dates, so choose somewhere you can afford. Don’t try to blow her away by blowing out your bank account. If you’re tight on cash, get creative! Girls: Be gracious. If he suggests burgers and beer – don’t be a diva. If his first choice isn’t your style, help him by steering him in another direction in the same price-point. (Note: even though he should treat, settle on an activity that you can afford just in case!)" Lol; you follow etiquette based on a magazine article... lololol! BEcause everything in "Date Magazine" must be true right? That's as dumb as following Cosmo or Maxim for dating advice. What's wrong with a woman showing manners by paying?
Cerpin_Taxt Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I am a women and a self-proclaimed feminist and I am so sick and tired of other women wanting to be treated like Princesses; I have no respect for a women who expects a man to pay for everything. Personally, I believe in splitting the bill in half, which is the fairest and most progressive way to date in the 21st century. Anyway I have a question for men and women regarding this issue: 1) What do you think of a woman who expects a man to pay for everything, and gets offended by the idea of halving the bill? 2) What do you think of a woman who wants to split the bill? 3)Why do women still believe in this old- fashioned dating ritual? 1) Par for the course. No biggie. 2) Would seem odd if I asked her out. Otherwise it wouldn't seem much like a date to me. 3) There is nothing wrong with this ritual. I, personally, like to pay when I do the asking out. I'm not out with a buddy, I'm on a date so I expect to pay and am slightly offended if I don't. The person that asks should pay. We expect men to do the asking so they should pay. If a woman asked me out to a dinner I would expect her to pay, but would still offer. It's my role as the male provider. I would feel lesser if the woman paid for our date.
Jazzari Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Lol; you follow etiquette based on a magazine article... lololol! BEcause everything in "Date Magazine" must be true right? That's as dumb as following Cosmo or Maxim for dating advice. What's wrong with a woman showing manners by paying?Oh, please. You're the one who accused me of being outdated. The current magazine article was quoted to show you that I'm not the only one who thinks that way. And in fact, its the norm. I certainly don't base my behavior on such articles. I do that on a good upbringing and common courtesy. Nothing is wrong with the woman paying. There are many times when that's appropriate. What's wrong is when the woman won't allow the man to pay - ever - because she's afraid he might be trying to control her. Or when she thinks accepting a nice gesture makes her a princess. That's just a bit too paranoid and defensive for me. And it's BAD manners to slap a guy in the face like that.
denise_xo Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I really don't think a man paying for the first date or men always opening the door for women is comparable to not picking your nose in public. It's really all about how you frame it. Where I live, dates are usually not framed in a way where one person asks the other out with a fixed plan in mind. It's a 'joint project' along the lines of 'how about we do something together' followed by mutual negotiation around a plan which both will enjoy and can afford. Expenses are nearly always split in one way or another. As for opening doors, to me it's not a gender thing. I hold the door open for others, others hold it open for me. Common courtesy, but not defined by gender.
musemaj11 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 The problem with American gender relation is that average American men sadly measure their self worth too excessively on their ability to pay. In latin culture for example, men on the other hand measure their manhood mainly on sexual prowess. I think American men need to learn to receive more while American women need to learn to give more.
musemaj11 Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I am a women and a self-proclaimed feminist and I am so sick and tired of other women wanting to be treated like Princesses; I have no respect for a women who expects a man to pay for everything. Personally, I believe in splitting the bill in half, which is the fairest and most progressive way to date in the 21st century. Anyway I have a question for men and women regarding this issue: 1) What do you think of a woman who expects a man to pay for everything, and gets offended by the idea of halving the bill? 2) What do you think of a woman who wants to split the bill? 3)Why do women still believe in this old- fashioned dating ritual? Why are feminists so obsessed with power? You should want to pay because you wanna treat the other person, not because you are fighting for power with that person. I would love to be treated by a woman as a gesture of generosity. But I dont want a woman to treat me just so she can show me who is boss.
milkmaterial Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) i pay when i ask them out.. they pay when they ask me out. no biggie. i love and embrace my femininity, but i respect my guys. usually when the guy has money we go out on a date and he pays for the movie and food, if he says (i am easy to talk to) he doesnt have enough, i tell him i will pay for the food..if i dont have money i will tell him we can rent some dvds and watch it at my place and he can eat for free in my home. what the F is the big deal? edit agree w/ musemaj, i have girl friends who pay for men, but these guys know whos boss and it aint them. aka she will one day tell you she doesnt need you, and will have no guilt from leaving you, cheating on you, cause she doesnt owe you a cent. this whole old fashioned vs new fashioned is lame. some guys are afraid of dating a girl who is ok with paying cause he doesnt want to work that hard for him and HER in the long run and some girls dont like this because its "old fashioned" and they dont want to look cheap. so it goes without saying you just want a fixed law between you and the guy, you dont want to communicate anymore..and if old fashioned is "so bad" then how come our grandparents and even parents have better relationships than us new generation folks with all our new modern ways? Edited April 23, 2011 by milkmaterial
EasyHeart Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 As a man, I always pay on dates because I don't want women to "expect" anything from me if they pay the bill. I am NOT a piece of meat that a woman can purchase.
denise_xo Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 i have girl friends who pay for men, but these guys know whos boss and it aint them. aka she will one day tell you she doesnt need you, and will have no guilt from leaving you, cheating on you, cause she doesnt owe you a cent. this whole old fashioned vs new fashioned is lame. Well, if that is the assumption, it follows that the women who don't cheat only do so because the men paid for them? I don't really get that logic. If the women only 'need' men because of financial reasons, I'm not sure how strong the relationship is in the first place. I don't want to be someone's boss. I don't want my SO to be my boss. I want partnership.
Anxiety Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I'm surprised by the amount of women who are willing to share in the costs of dating. My exgf got pissed at me 'cause she had to spend $12 of her money to buy us lunch when we went to a peach festival. I use a credit card for everything and they only accepted cash. I was already buying all her groceries, but $12 was too much for her.
Eve Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 Interesting thread.. I had never really thought about the dating ritual and feminism being related as such. I see feminism more as a concept towards ensuring the rights of women more on a global scale rather than who pays at dinner. You know, reproductive rights, equal pay etc.. H'm.. Maybe I have always taken it literally when someone has said, 'I would love to take you out..' I pay for myself as is the normal ritual and will contribute or buy tickets or whatever, with a friend - but would view that I am being taken out by a potential partner. The two are entirely different in my minds eye and I don't mix the two. But logically, if money is the ultimate underpinning joint between people nowadays, it makes sense that people go 50 - 50 from the onset. I have never been money minded really. I wanted something deeper and got it! This thread kind of reminds me of a woman who I knew in a previous work role who as a staunch feminist and her partner wouldn't even get a bag out of the car for her - so used to her view was he. I always thought that she had bitten off more than she could chew with him. Really, he was just lazy and hid behind her views. No, I value the ideology of feminism in terms of being something to equalise, not cause rifts! Or create a world where women must pay on dates or be seen as gold diggers. Anyhow, I can't imagine a guy being too broke to pay for dinner.. what is that about? I guess it is a generational thing. Still, I wish you all well. The old fashioned way worked for me ok and I am glad your modern way works for you... Take care, Eve x
veggirl Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I've always offered to pay the whole bill. I don't recall ever being taken up on this, but I do offer to pay the whole thing and then when I'm told no, offer to pay half. If he asked me out, I would be a little if he actually let me pay the whole thing, but I do offer. Disingenuously, I guess :-/ I wouldn't be offended at all if he let me pay half. I honestly feel a bit awkward when a guy pays for the whole thing very early on. I prefer to split it at the beginning, and I'm not sure what's so uncomfortable about handing a waiter 2 cards and saying "half on each" like everyone is acting like there is penny counting at some point during the transaction, lol. A lot of the times it seems women end up thinking "well he paid so he likes me!"
zengirl Posted April 23, 2011 Posted April 23, 2011 I've always offered to pay the whole bill. I don't recall ever being taken up on this, but I do offer to pay the whole thing and then when I'm told no, offer to pay half. If he asked me out, I would be a little if he actually let me pay the whole thing, but I do offer. Disingenuously, I guess :-/ I wouldn't be offended at all if he let me pay half. I honestly feel a bit awkward when a guy pays for the whole thing very early on. I prefer to split it at the beginning, and I'm not sure what's so uncomfortable about handing a waiter 2 cards and saying "half on each" like everyone is acting like there is penny counting at some point during the transaction, lol. A lot of the times it seems women end up thinking "well he paid so he likes me!" I don't assume a man likes me just because he paid (it's a social norm here, so nice guys are going to do this regardless), but I do assume he doesn't like me much if he doesn't insist to pay -- unless I have a VERY specific reason to believe the social norm is being disregarded for other reasons. Again, this assumes I'm where I live now. In Europe, going dutch is way more of the norm (depends on where), so it doesn't feel weird there.
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