So NOW Women want to propose to men. REALLY?

[alphamale]

What you saying Alpha? Im confused.

groucho marx once said "i would never become a member of a club that wanted me"

[9Lives]

groucho marx once said "i would never become a member of a club that wanted me"

 

Well I dont care what nobody say about me or regarding this particular topic. A woman aint got no business proposing to a man.

 

yall can talk about me,...call me names...do whatever makes you feel good....it dont matter to me at all.

 

Im done with this topic...lots of beta behavior going on round here.

 

On to the next.

[alphamale]

A woman aint got no business proposing to a man.

i agree...

[cerridwen]

I get where you're coming from 9Lives.

 

In this regard, I tend toward the traditional myself.

Onward.

[sirenisland]

A brand new poster makes an account, posts only in this thread, then disappears? Um.. okay.

 

I am new to this forum and I strongly agree with 9lives and in know way am I a feminist!!!!

[sirenisland]

i agree...

 

You are the realest man on this thread! Thankyou for being one of the few men that has actually kept his BALLS. Societys just screwing everybody up!

[musemaj11]

Traditionally a woman is allowed to propose in a leap year on Feb 29th, and if the man refuses he has to pay a fine. It isn't a new thing; the tradition has been around for centuries.

And in the Middle East, its not uncommon for the woman's father to ask a man's father if the man is interested in marrying her.

 

But really, as I said who proposes to who comes down to who has the most money. Men are traditionally the askers because in the past men were the ones with the money. The donator decides who he is going to donate his money to, not the beggar.

 

I mean if Madonna and Jesus Luz ever decided to marry, it would be Madonna who asked him not the other way around because she was the one with the most at stake by getting married.

[ChessPieceFace]

Is the OP serious or is it a joke/troll post?

 

Yes, western society is messed up, and yes women want and have been given an amount of personal freedom which seems to be logically at odds with a healthy society. Look at our society with objectivity and you will see it very plainly. I believe in "equality" as a rule, but what I believe in more is having a society that doesn't implode. Essentially, women want all the rights you have, while still being treated as the privileged gender, AND they still want to "marry up." Those things are incongruous. The ideals of absolute gender equality are at odds with human nature. Unless you're going to alter the human genome, you aren't going to ever turn women into men. You're just going to live in a society that is dishonest about its true nature and falling apart like ours is today.

 

That said, I don't see the fundamental problem with the OP's complaint. Meaning, I can see the problem on a societal level, but that is meaningless to the individual. If I had a girlfriend who saw fit to propose to me, then I have chosen a girlfriend who was NOT traditional, did not believe in traditional gender roles and felt it OK to do such a thing. The proposal is just a symptom of that, not the problem itself. The men out there who have chosen such girlfriends would have no problem with it, they can try it out and see if their marriage can fly in the face of human nature. Some of them will be able to, many won't. That doesn't directly affect me or anyone else who believes in traditional gender roles. It's almost like saying "men can propose to men, OMG what if that happens to me?" It's silly.

 

As to those who will no doubt scream at me for not being "enlightened" -- actually I am, and you missed the point. I have basically no problem if you want to be a single professional woman and want equal pay etc. Or, if you are a professional woman who has personally come to terms with their own female nature, how it is at odds with the concept of absolute equality, and worked through the contradictions to the point where you can actually hold down a stable marriage, have a house-husband who makes less than you (and somehow still respect him) or whatever else. Everyone is different, maybe some people can make that work and run against the grain of human nature. But on the societal level, it simply is not working. I don't have a direct solution but I know the first step toward that solution is stopping the dishonesty and lies we're being fed by idealists who won't admit how bad a state marriage is in. I am not advocating some kind of societal return to traditional values, as that cannot ever happen (unless/until global catastrophe pushes the reset button on our civilization.) All I am really advocating is that people stop being stupid and dishonest.

Edited April 21, 2011 by ChessPieceFace

[musemaj11]

Lol, ChessPieceFace does have a point.

 

This thread is indeed sexist and sounds like its made by a backward thinking person.

 

Its akin to someone making a thread about how gay marriage is wrong because its against societal standard.

[sally4sara]

I've never met a married couple (though I'm sure some exist somewhere) that didn't have discussions about getting married and whether or not they wanted marriage with each other PRIOR to any actual proposal.

Not sure how it goes down with arranged marriage, but I've only casually know one couple married in this fashion.

 

I know my husband and I discussed it first. The proposal was just a lovely and fun formality to something we already planned.

 

Most married couples I know, there was a lengthy discussion between them leading up to some final gesture about what they already agreed to. So who is proposing to who in that situation?

[Kelemort]

Yeah, the last poster mentions something that's crossed my mind as well - is it really 'proposing' by the time you pop out the ring when all of the discussions are in place and it's just a formality? The engagement ring had its big old purpose back in the old days - back in the '20s when I was likely only housewife material, a man could stroll along and give me a big old rock. If he breaks off the engagement or we otherwise don't marry, it's some financial security while I wait for my next proposal. Let's not even get into the whole thing about how non-virgins in American society were likely to have less buying power in the marriage market back then (saw a great Slate article on this - the vast majority of women in generations past 'gave it up' after the engagement).

 

But I digress - what's so wrong with a woman proposing to a man? I'll agree there's a traditional side of me that would like to be proposed to, but I initiated my present relationship (I dropped two kisses on that boy on separate occasions, then asked him to be my boyfriend). Why didn't he ask me? Well, just a few months later, it was very likely he was going to be immigrating to Canada and while he was attracted, he didn't feel it was fair to ask me out and then jet. There are lots of reasons, but that was his. I don't mind it. I wasn't going to sit there and fume and get all pissy waiting for him to initiate things when I was perfectly capable of doing them myself.

 

And the same goes with marriage. I love the idea of entertaining a big romantic display before I ask him to be my husband. Of the two of us, I'm definitely the more creative and romantic (...admittedly I'm afraid of a big build-up for a lame proposal on his end. But hey, the proposal is what counts, I guess).

 

When the time comes, who will propose? It'll probably end up being him because he has far more disposable income, he's older and he's at a more stable point in his life. If I were more stable, I'd probably do it when I felt that the time was right. And I don't think that makes me 'trying to be a man' - that makes me 'trying to be married.'

 

Marriage proposals differ all around the world, and we don't have to stick with the tradition of only men doing it. Although I admit that using the excuse "I'm afraid of rejection" is a lame one. If you've been with the girl long enough to consider proposing to her, you should know well enough if she's very likely or not to accept. It's not like she's going to sit there raving about how excited she is to marry you, when and where she wants it, etc., and then when it comes up, she's going to say, "Marry YOU? Oh God, no!" And the 'fear of rejection' thing goes on both sides. If you're that afraid of rejection, don't be in a relationship.

 

Maybe the men are just slower to get around to it, they don't have the money, etc. One of my friends has been dating his girlfriend for about 6 years. This past August, she suddenly dropped the bomb that she wanted a diamond engagement ring in February or it was over. The guy was and still is working at a Wendy's to make ends meet. Of course he wanted to give her a big proposal, but the timeline she gave him and the pressure she put onto him about it was unreal. In the end, he ended up selling a bunch of his things just so he could get her the rock she wanted.

 

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but if I were in her position, that would make me feel like crap. If I have to give someone an ultimatum to get them to propose to me, am I really going to feel good about it? If it comes down to that, imho, whatever the reason, it's probably time to either propose yourself (if you think it's a money issue) or move on. I'll never coerce someone into marrying me.

[sally4sara]

Maybe the men are just slower to get around to it, they don't have the money, etc. One of my friends has been dating his girlfriend for about 6 years. This past August, she suddenly dropped the bomb that she wanted a diamond engagement ring in February or it was over. The guy was and still is working at a Wendy's to make ends meet. Of course he wanted to give her a big proposal, but the timeline she gave him and the pressure she put onto him about it was unreal. In the end, he ended up selling a bunch of his things just so he could get her the rock she wanted.

 

Now, I don't know about anybody else, but if I were in her position, that would make me feel like crap. If I have to give someone an ultimatum to get them to propose to me, am I really going to feel good about it? If it comes down to that, imho, whatever the reason, it's probably time to either propose yourself (if you think it's a money issue) or move on. I'll never coerce someone into marrying me.

 

I don't get the insistence of an extravagant diamond anything any more than I think a marriage born of ultimatums will last.

[zengirl]

I've never met a married couple (though I'm sure some exist somewhere) that didn't have discussions about getting married and whether or not they wanted marriage with each other PRIOR to any actual proposal.

Not sure how it goes down with arranged marriage, but I've only casually know one couple married in this fashion.

 

I know my husband and I discussed it first. The proposal was just a lovely and fun formality to something we already planned.

 

Most married couples I know, there was a lengthy discussion between them leading up to some final gesture about what they already agreed to. So who is proposing to who in that situation?

 

I've known several girls who were "on edge" as to whether or not their boyfriends would propose. They may have discussed marriage, but it was in hypothetical terms and the guys kept it a surprised and pretended they had no interest in proposing yet and shocked them with proposals. That's a dynamic that bothers me and that I don't like. These girls were very happy and thought the trickery was thoughtful, though. To each their own.

 

I had an ex suddenly propose to me. We were living together and had discussed marriage (We had also discussed the fact that I hate diamonds), but I had no idea he was going to propose. He did so with a diamond ring and a new house he bought, without talking to me. That's the main reason we broke up right there, and part of why I'm so adamant about not being 'surprised' I guess.

 

My HS sweetheart and I were engaged (he passed away), and we just kind of talked about it and then went out and bought plain platinum bands together that we had engraved. I think he "proposed" but it was really a "We should get married soon," type of thing, and I sort of agreed, and we took little baby steps towards it till we started planning a wedding. We were so young! It seems crazy to me now.

[dreamingoftigers]

That is something that should not be done, period!

 

My ex, when she talked of marriage with me, said she would be willing to take my name, but she would keep hers to so it would just be a long name.

 

A man should never take a womans name, period.

 

My H and I hyphenated but not legally, our daughter has a combined last name.

 

Depending on my mood towards him I will use my full hyphenated name or my maiden name.

 

It took him 3 proposals to get a clear answer.

[sally4sara]

I've known several girls who were "on edge" as to whether or not their boyfriends would propose. They may have discussed marriage, but it was in hypothetical terms and the guys kept it a surprised and pretended they had no interest in proposing yet and shocked them with proposals. That's a dynamic that bothers me and that I don't like. These girls were very happy and thought the trickery was thoughtful, though. To each their own.

 

I agree. Marriage is a mutual choice. It should be mutually planned. I knew when my husband suggested we go to NY for the weekend that he intended to do a formal proposal while we were there. We'd already spoken to a jewelry maker and gave her the stones I wanted. I'd already bought him his dream watch.

 

I had an ex suddenly propose to me. We were living together and had discussed marriage (We had also discussed the fact that I hate diamonds), but I had no idea he was going to propose. He did so with a diamond ring and a new house he bought, without talking to me. That's the main reason we broke up right there, and part of why I'm so adamant about not being 'surprised' I guess.

 

That sounds........super controlling! Good on you for passing that one up!

 

I had a BF like that but I nipped it in the butt before we got to any bended knee situation. He kept asking me stuff like "hypothetically, if you had a house where would you prefer it be?" I'd answer, but he didn't like the answer so he kept asking every couple of days or so but eliminating the areas I picked. "Hypothetically, if you had a house that wasn't in X neighborhood, where would it be?" So I finally told him to get a house where he wanted because HE would be living in it, not ME. I broke up with him shortly after that and began dating the guy I'm now married to.

[donnamaybe]

lots of beta behavior going on round here.

 

Nope. You've gotten it COMPLETELY backwards. "Beta behavior" would be if a man felt threatened by his woman asking him to get married. A REAL man isn't threatened by anything his woman does. He doesn't need her to give him a pair - he already wears his proudly.

[Jazzari]

I've never met a married couple (though I'm sure some exist somewhere) that didn't have discussions about getting married and whether or not they wanted marriage with each other PRIOR to any actual proposal.

Not sure how it goes down with arranged marriage, but I've only casually know one couple married in this fashion.

 

I know my husband and I discussed it first. The proposal was just a lovely and fun formality to something we already planned.

 

Most married couples I know, there was a lengthy discussion between them leading up to some final gesture about what they already agreed to. So who is proposing to who in that situation?

My husband and I didn't discuss marriage prior to the proposal. In fact, the proposal was a surprise though I was hoping like crazy.

 

His job transferred to another state which was about a 14 hour drive. There was only a week notice before he left. He kept telling me not to worry about it, but I didn't see how we could maintain the relationship with that distance. He waited until the day he left and we were saying goodbye. I had been hoping for a proposal all week but at that point I thought it was over. Then he pulled out the ring.

[donnamaybe]

You are the realest man on this thread! Thankyou for being one of the few men that has actually kept his BALLS. Societys just screwing everybody up!

Hmmm... A brand new poster who posts ONLY in one thread and has lots of misspelling JUST like the OP...

[Kelemort]

I don't think I'd quite want to go and order my ring and all of that. The one thing I think is most important prior to a proposal is that we're clear we're happy in the relationship and we'd like to move forward. That's as far as it has been discussed in my own relationship - we live together and he'll usually be in a random mood where he'll start saying things like, "I know it's not going to take me very long to decide for sure that this is exactly what I'd like."

 

Then there are the nights when he'll make comments like, "I can't wait until you're my wife," or "I am so glad you moved in with me - I want to do this for the rest of my life." So he's made his stance clear and he's made it clear he's toward the end of the 'I'm not sure/deciding' phase. If anything, I'm the one who's more unclear - although I've voiced that to him. And that kind of straightforward talking is all I need to know.

 

I don't want a diamond engagement ring. When my brother married, he paid $2k for my sister-in-law's engagement ring. At the time, I thought that was an extravagant amount of money. Now I see that at many jewelry places, that's the STARTING point of a halfway decent ring. One of my old co-workers was telling me about how he had bought his girlfriend a $9k engagement ring. I'd crap my pants if I misplaced it!

 

There are many jewelry stores and online vendors now who do engagement rings with other gemstones. White topaz is gorgeous, imho, and far cheaper. A ring like that would probably run $200 - $500. But if we forewent the engagement ring altogether, I'd be fine - I'd just get VERY exhausted with people making comments about the ring or how "cheap" s/o is, something like that.

 

I feel bad for a lot of men. Even if a woman says she doesn't want a diamond ring, they probably have a lot of thoughts going through their heads: 1.) Is she just saying that because she doesn't want to look like a gold-digger? Does she think I can't afford it? If I get something else, will she be disappointed? 2.) What will other people say? Are they going to make insults about me to her because I didn't get her a diamond? Will she grow to resent me because she has to deal with all of that?

 

I'm not saying they're all good reasons or fears - especially #2 - but I can understand that's nerve-wracking enough when you're deciding to propose. And for most people, the diamond ring is a foolproof choice.

 

That aside, going off and buying a house or something without your consent is going too far. The ring? You know what - I'd be fine with just about any ring somebody bought me. They're all essentially the same thing with slight tweaks. But a house? I'm going to be living in that thing for God knows how long. I'd best like it.

[Jazzari]

I don't want a diamond engagement ring. When my brother married, he paid $2k for my sister-in-law's engagement ring. At the time, I thought that was an extravagant amount of money. Now I see that at many jewelry places, that's the STARTING point of a halfway decent ring. One of my old co-workers was telling me about how he had bought his girlfriend a $9k engagement ring. I'd crap my pants if I misplaced it!

 

There are many jewelry stores and online vendors now who do engagement rings with other gemstones. White topaz is gorgeous, imho, and far cheaper. A ring like that would probably run $200 - $500. But if we forewent the engagement ring altogether, I'd be fine - I'd just get VERY exhausted with people making comments about the ring or how "cheap" s/o is, something like that.

 

I feel bad for a lot of men. Even if a woman says she doesn't want a diamond ring, they probably have a lot of thoughts going through their heads: 1.) Is she just saying that because she doesn't want to look like a gold-digger? Does she think I can't afford it? If I get something else, will she be disappointed? 2.) What will other people say? Are they going to make insults about me to her because I didn't get her a diamond? Will she grow to resent me because she has to deal with all of that?

 

I'm not saying they're all good reasons or fears - especially #2 - but I can understand that's nerve-wracking enough when you're deciding to propose. And for most people, the diamond ring is a foolproof choice.

*standing ovation*

 

I am totally with you on the expensive ring thing. My sister has a 6k wedding ring. I asked her why and she said it was an investment. An investment in what? Is she planning on selling it someday?

 

I honestly would rather forgo the stone completely. A simple gold band is what I want. I'm very active and I could wear it all the time. I don't want a big fancy wedding either as I think that's also a waste of money - not to mention the headaches.

 

Now a honeymoon? Yeah, I could drop a few pennies on that.

[zengirl]

I feel bad for a lot of men. Even if a woman says she doesn't want a diamond ring, they probably have a lot of thoughts going through their heads: 1.) Is she just saying that because she doesn't want to look like a gold-digger? Does she think I can't afford it? If I get something else, will she be disappointed? 2.) What will other people say? Are they going to make insults about me to her because I didn't get her a diamond? Will she grow to resent me because she has to deal with all of that?

 

Yes, I am an odd duck, and I think about this sometimes. I really hate traditional diamonds (hate them!) and they're expensive, so I wouldn't want a diamond ring. That said, if I were dating a guy who really wanted to buy me a ring, I'd go shopping with him for something with colored diamonds or another stone, and I'd wear it. I'd definitely wear a band, even though honestly, I'd prefer not to/don't really care, as most guys who are marriage-minded would feel slighted if their future wife wouldn't. So, I can compromise on silly things like that, but I admit it must be difficult for a guy to really process that a girl doesn't want an engagement ring.

 

I'm totally weird, though. I want to be married someday, have kids, the whole deal, BUT I hate diamonds, don't want an engagement ring, and really, really, really want to elope, as I hate the idea of planning a wedding. Hate it! I'd like to get married in the courthouse and spend all that money on an awesome honeymoon trip instead. You'd think it'd be easy to find a guy who felt the same, but my serious BFs have always had a tinge of disappointment in hearing that.

 

As for the exBF who bought the house, he still lives in that house and he loves it. And it's a nice enough house, to be sure, and I knew he was potentially someday-looking for a house (he has a small business, and this house is in a residential/commercial district, so he was going to run the business out of there and live with me in the apartment for a bit, but I KNEW he wanted to live in the house) but I was just put-off in how it felt like I was just another "piece" falling into place in his life. He'd just been through a rough time, in fairness, and totally regrets all that now, but it illustrated how wrong for each other we were in the longterm. I went on to travel, and he has his business and his house. Still no wife, but I'm sure he'll find somebody great.

 

A ring almost seems more permanent to me, though. I mean, you have to wear it every day. If you were to say to your husband, "Hey, what do you think about moving?" at least there's a discussion to be had, but "Hey, do you mind if I pawn this ring/put this ring in a drawer somewhere? I don't like wearing it much" just seems. . . mean.

Edited April 21, 2011 by zengirl

[Kelemort]

I'm with you on eloping. As a kid, I loved the idea of a big, fairytale wedding. Now I'm older and I'm really a behind-the-scenes type of person. I'm the more outgoing in my relationship, so I fully expected my somewhat shy-and-reserved boyfriend would go for the idea of eloping. When I told him, he looked at me like I was crazy and said, "But I want all of my family to be there."

 

Part of it's, yes, that I'm not thrilled about most of my family and the numerous thoughts of how they could ruin my wedding day flood through my mind. Some relatives, including a cousin of mine, simply can't keep away from the booze (whether it's served at the wedding or not) and like to make a scene. I asked s/o that if we had a wedding, he'd at least leave the alcohol out - to which he responded, "I am going to have a glass of wine at my wedding, damn it."

 

And eloping is just cheaper and more intimate. Why does everyone's noses need to be in my marriage? I like the idea of going off someplace alone, giving my vows to him and only him, and then moving on with a big Honeymoon. Then returning a few weeks later and telling everyone: Surprise! We're married! It's a little too late for them to get all worked up at that point when it's already done and over.

 

I can't believe how many relatives get 'hurt' and 'upset' when somebody elopes and they weren't included. Can't it just be about the couple for once? I love a party as much as anyone else, but what a snob I'd have to be to put my foot down and get upset because a couple did what they wanted to with their own marriage.

[bentnotbroken]

True but this goes both ways in that case.

 

You're old fashioned? Are you a woman?

 

Would you be fine with staying at home with the kids(if you get any) while the man makes all the money? Would you be fine with doing most of the cooking? And all that stuff?

 

You can't claim to be old fashioned and then go out and have a succesful career and earn more than you husband and put the kids in daycare and order take-out food everyday and do none of the traditional house chores...

 

 

Who says so? When that law get passed?

[Jazzari]

I'm totally weird, though. I want to be married someday, have kids, the whole deal, BUT I hate diamonds, don't want an engagement ring, and really, really, really want to elope, as I hate the idea of planning a wedding. Hate it! I'd like to get married in the courthouse and spend all that money on an awesome honeymoon trip instead. You'd think it'd be easy to find a guy who felt the same, but my serious BFs have always had a tinge of disappointment in hearing that.

I'm totally with you here. Thankfully, my husband felt the same. We were married by JoP and it was the best ever. We went out beforehand and bought matching sweatshirts and that was it as far as wedding attire went. It was alot of fun and we never regretted it.

 

If I ever get married again, I'd love to elope. I want an engagement ring out of a bubble gum machine. I think that'd be the coolest ever. And a plain gold band for my wedding ring.

[dreamingoftigers]

I initially wanted to elope with my husband, but then there were people I would miss sharing the moment with. Our guest list ended up being 15 people total. I wouldn't have traded it for the world.

 

Banff Springs Hotel and it was beautiful.