johan Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 If you go into a relationship with a woman acting like everything is sunshine and daisies, you might be asking for trouble. It's not that being funny, happy and easy-going is bad, necessarily. There is a time and place for that. Maybe most of the time and most places. I would never advocate bitterness. Bitterness is really just fear run amok. And stupidity always seems to want to tag along. Anger on the other hand, can be your friend. It seems like if you want something, you have to be ready to get a little pissed. You have to be ready to demand respect when you aren't getting it. Not the next day, or when things are completely broken. But on the spot. Clearly and directly and calmly, but without question. If you can't do that, then that just gives her time to grow the little "he's a pushover" weed. You can't really count on being able to pull that little bastard up later. How does this anger come out? Not in a shrieking temper tantrum. Not sulking. Definitely not physically. But it should be in your eyes, and in your intolerance for being taken for granted. Can you invent it? No. You can't go putting a chip on your shoulder and convince anyone you actually mean it. How do you get it? Get f*cked around a few times. DATE. DATE WOMEN. Get out there and put your "nice guy" right out there on your sleeve. Get to know where your boundaries are by having women show you all the ways they can walk all over them. Then pick yourself up and do it again. And keep doing it until you've had enough. The woman who gets you when you're pissed and have just about had enough is the lucky one who can brag about how she was the smart one and all those others were total idiots. At least until your anger subsides, your guard comes down, and she watches your boundaries melt away. But still. That one will last longer than 5 weeks. Sooner or later you'll get it right.
EricaH329 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 You have to be ready to demand respect when you aren't getting it. Not the next day, or when things are completely broken. But on the spot. Clearly and directly and calmly, but without question. This speaks volumes. If you wait, it only produces resentment. The more resentment you accumulate, the more bitterness becomes attached to it.
january2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I say "no" to anger and "yes" to assertiveness.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I am not sure whether this post is optimistic or pessimistic.
EricaH329 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I say "no" to anger and "yes" to assertiveness. But assertiveness can be misconstrued. It's really a lose-lose. But I believe you are better off sticking up for yourself than allowing yourself to be walked all over. PS - Jan, I miss you!!! I am not sure whether this post is optimistic or pessimistic. I believe it is educational
Author johan Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 I say "no" to anger and "yes" to assertiveness. Well, it takes a bit of anger to assert yourself. Or at least if there isn't a spark of anger associated with it, forget about being taken seriously. I am not sure whether this post is optimistic or pessimistic. I'm not either. I guess it's in the same vein as "the fact that you're alive right now guarantees you're going to die someday." It's just one of those miserable facts of life.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I'm not either. I guess it's in the same vein as "the fact that you're alive right now guarantees you're going to die someday." It's just one of those miserable facts of life. Just like if you cheer for "the Avalanche" it won't be a good year for you.
Ms. Joolie Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Well, it takes a bit of anger to assert yourself. Anger will get you nowhere. It is your communication that matters.
Author johan Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 Anger will get you nowhere. It is your communication that matters. Well, tell me which emotion you need to have before you feel the need to start communicating about something. I'm not talking bursting into a total fury. I'm talking about just your everyday, "There's no way I'm taking as much crap as you seem willing to dish out" anger.
Ms. Joolie Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Well, tell me which emotion you need to have before you feel the need to start communicating about something. I'm not talking bursting into a total fury. I'm talking about just your everyday, "I'm not taking as much crap as you seem willing to dish out" anger. From my POV, anger is a reaction, and not the emotion you want to be coming from when you assert yourself and start communicating about something that is important to you. There is a larger and more productive variety of emotions to come from as you assert yourself and communicate. Anger is not one of the positive and productive variety. Do some research on healthy emotions and choose from those. From these healthy emotions you can begin to address your concerns.
windows Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Is this the Marilyn Munroe "If you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best" approach to refining yourself for dating? I'm not one for anger - then again, I'm the one without any dates. I can see where you're coming from but putting your own needs above others' isn't a noble creed you can completely live by in relationships.
EricaH329 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Is this the Marilyn Munroe "If you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best" approach to refining yourself for dating? I'm not one for anger - then again, I'm the one without any dates. I can see where you're coming from but putting your own needs above others' isn't a noble creed you can completely live by in relationships. You have completely misunderstood. The way I understood this post, was basically not to allow anyone to disrespect you. And if that means having to show anger for the unacceptable behavior of others, then so be it. But it isn't an emotion that comes from no where. I'm not too sure where this whole 'putting yourself before others' aspect comes from, but I suppose that we just interpreted this thread in two completely different ways.
Author johan Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 Is this the Marilyn Munroe "If you can't handle me at my worst you don't deserve me at my best" approach to refining yourself for dating? I'm not one for anger - then again, I'm the one without any dates. I can see where you're coming from but putting your own needs above others' isn't a noble creed you can completely live by in relationships. It's more the "I don't know what you're up to, but the fact that you would even consider jerking me around makes me mad. I don't need to hear from you before your head is back on straight." approach. And I'll definitely put any of my needs above another's mysterious need to see if I'll forgo respect hoping for another night in her precious arms. You have to be willing to get a little pissed about it in order to handle the situation right. It is after all a test of your fortitude, and also a bit insulting when you think about it. It's the "are you a man or are you a mouse" test. And hell if I'm opting for the mouse. Maybe they can't help doing it, but I can opt out of tolerating it.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Kind of funny -- women picking at you for your post. I thought it was great, and right on!
windows Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 ahk, thanks for the clarity. I see what you're talking about now.
january2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 But assertiveness can be misconstrued. It's really a lose-lose. But I believe you are better off sticking up for yourself than allowing yourself to be walked all over. PS - Jan, I miss you!!! I find that when I act out of anger I feel ashamed and guilty afterwards. Being assertive usually results in feeling liberated and somewhat proud. It's a very fine line - one that I find a constant challenge, but a line that I try to draw when I can. Unfortunately, I don't always get feedback from others in terms of how they differentiate between the times I'm being assertive and the times I'm being angry. I miss you too, Erica! And I think I missed your birthday as well - hope it was a brilliant and happy one. An extremely belated birthday bunny for you --> Well, it takes a bit of anger to assert yourself. Or at least if there isn't a spark of anger associated with it, forget about being taken seriously. I see that as 'anger through gritted teeth' - not quite what I'd consider asserting oneself. I think that there are better ways of directing negative energy than towards someone else. Though as I wrote to Erica, it's something that I find challenging myself.
EricaH329 Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I find that when I act out of anger I feel ashamed and guilty afterwards. Being assertive usually results in feeling liberated and somewhat proud. It's a very fine line - one that I find a constant challenge, but a line that I try to draw when I can. Unfortunately, I don't always get feedback from others in terms of how they differentiate between the times I'm being assertive and the times I'm being angry. I miss you too, Erica! And I think I missed your birthday as well - hope it was a brilliant and happy one. An extremely belated birthday bunny for you --> Oh definitely. Anger and assertiveness are two completely different things. Unfortunately, the majority of people (which I have been in contact with, anyway) mistakes the two for being the same. Even while being firm in your beliefs, could be easily mistaken as 'stiff' or 'angry'. More often than not, that's my experience with it. Thank you for the belated birthday!! It was a forgettable one!
zengirl Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Anger on the other hand, can be your friend. It seems like if you want something, you have to be ready to get a little pissed. To paraphrase the Buddha, holding onto anger is like holding onto a hot coal with the idea you'll throw it at someone else----who gets burned? You do. Silly, silly. The notion that one must be angry in order to get what they want or demand respect is fallacious. You have to be ready to demand respect when you aren't getting it. Not the next day, or when things are completely broken. But on the spot. Clearly and directly and calmly, but without question. If you can't do that, then that just gives her time to grow the little "he's a pushover" weed. You can't really count on being able to pull that little bastard up later. You phrase this in an angry, emotional way, and so I disagree with it. HOWEVER, I do think that all people (men and women alike) need to have boundaries and assert themselves. Kindly. Calmly. Without anger. When you have good boundaries, there is usually no reason to get angry. Not that I'm a robot. I do get mildly annoyed when someone trips over my boundaries --- or even rageful, if they fly WAY past a very important boundary, I suppose, but that'd have to be something pretty severe, and even then, I'd prefer to be without anger. Anger doesn't help you assert your boundaries in a way people can hear them, and it doesn't help rectify a situation if that's your goal. Anger is perhaps the most destructive emotion we tap into, and it really hurts the angry person the most. At any rate, when you have real boundaries and self-respect, going around angry is pretty much unnecesary. Certainly things might make you angry in the moment, but that'll be a sign that something is wrong, needs to be rectified, and thus anger released. Trying to hold onto anger. . . well, sounds like a miserable life to me.
Cee Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Johan, I loved your post. I thought your post was timely for me. This weekend my BF wanted to blow off an event because he was tired. I had organized the event and told my friends that he was coming. I was pissed and told him on the phone that fatigue is no excuse and he must come. He showed up and commented, "You brought the hammer down." Indeed I did. And I gave him a hug and kiss. I was still a little pissed off, but he's a good man and I love him. No reason to hold a grudge. Water under the bridge. Anger feels great when it gets the job done. Problem is that had he not shown up, I would have had a difficult situation.
Author johan Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 (edited) At any rate, when you have real boundaries and self-respect, going around angry is pretty much unnecesary. Certainly things might make you angry in the moment, but that'll be a sign that something is wrong, needs to be rectified, and thus anger released. You spent your entire post trying to refute me, and then write this, which is precisely my point paraphrased. At no point did I ever say that holding onto anger was a good idea. That was your invention. Edited April 19, 2011 by johan
Cee Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I totally believe in eastern principles of non-attachment, but it can slide into hopelessness and apathy. I can't imagine not ever having anger. The world is unjust. Any time I read the news, I get angry. In my daily life, I deal with injustices all the time. My landlord is horrible, I grossly underpaid/overworked, and my neighbors are driving me batty. I try to be serene about it, but I am angry sometimes. But I either do something to address the conflict or I release the emotion.
Jazzari Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I think some anger in a relationship is good from time to time. But never as a means of controlling your partner. If I had a man who never got angry with me, I wouldn't like it. That degree of self control is cold and unhealthy. Sometimes you just need to vent and then have great make up sex afterward.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 It is healthy to express your emotions when they arise, in constructive, non-abusive ways. A relationship partner needs to be able to handle this. It comes with the territory of loving another person.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I think some anger in a relationship is good from time to time. But never as a means of controlling your partner. If I had a man who never got angry with me, I wouldn't like it. That degree of self control is cold and unhealthy. Sometimes you just need to vent and then have great make up sex afterward. Yes. One of my exes was a people pleaser and always held his anger in -- until one day, when we were having an argument and he punched the wall! He never would have hurt me, and I knew it, so I actually thought it was really hot to see him standing up for and asserting himself for a change, getting some of his frustration OUT, and I told him so.
zengirl Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 You spent your entire post trying to refute me, and then write this, which is precisely my point paraphrased. At no point did I ever say that holding onto anger was a good idea. That was your invention. But by release it, I mean forgive the slight (which can also mean cutting the person out of my life, if the slight was too severe, but with forgiveness and closure), not inflict it upon the other person as some sort of power. Anger is not power, in my view, and it has never accomplished anything. Releasing and letting go of anger has accomplished much. You suggested "unleashing" anger more than what I'd call releasing it. I disagree that being angry helps with being assertive. Being assertive is about having a healthy sense of yourself and your boundaries. Being angry comes from not being able to properly assert those things. Anger is a product of a lack of assertiveness in many cases you describe. Assertive people are less likely to be angry at all.
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