Ravens girl Posted April 17, 2011 Posted April 17, 2011 I want to thank everyone for the helpful advice I've read on and off for the past few years. This is my first post and here's my story, sorry if it's a bit long. MM and I met when we were children, our parents belong to the same club that goes on weekend retreats several times a year. He stopped going to the retreats for several years but his mom still went. She always talked about how I was the love of MM's life and that he talked about me often. In 2004, (we were in our late 20's) he came to a retreat weekend and we instantly had a connection. He was now married with 2 small children. A few weeks later at the next retreat, our affair began. Our affair was on and off for the next 3 years. As many of you have experienced, our connection was intense, deep, sensual and sometimes overwhelming. We talked for hours on the phone and saw each other several times a month. He told me he loved me and never felt this way before and I felt the same way. It felt like magic. I was literally high with emotion. When the affair was "off", I was devastated. We would talk one night but the next night, and for weeks or months, he wouldn't answer his phone or texts. I believe the phrase you use is no contact. I foolishly convinced myself that I wasn't going to go away quietly and without an explanation. I deserved at least that much right? So I continued to call and text him and that only made me feel worse. He would call sporadically, telling me that his wife found out, or how much he cared about me or how much he missed me. I was just so happy to hear from him that I forgot to be angry at how he hurt me in the first place. I just wanted him back, and I didn't care at the time that he hurt me. And when he did explain things, it was never enough of an explanation. It always left me with more questions or more things I wanted to tell him. It was never enough. (I am literally cringing at myself right now, remembering how foolishly I felt and acted during this period--who had I become?) In 2007 I ended things for good and began the slow process of getting over him. Since we both still belong to the club, we saw each other about once a year. And while nothing physical happened, the far more dangerous emotional connection still existed. We were drawn to each other. We would end up talking about things for hours at a time. He would also call me every few months, sometime to talk as friends and other times to tell me how much he loved me and wished we could be together. Then, a few months ago, I called to tell him that a mutual friend died and he shocked me with his news. He left his wife a few months beforehand, got his own apartment and had signed legal separation papers. After the memorial service, we spent several hours talking. He told me that he never stopped loving me and that he wasn't ready for a relationship now, but wants one with me in the future. I said that I didn't know if that was possible, but would consider it only after his divorce became final, after he put his life back together and after he sowed whatever wild oats might be lingering around. That was 3 months ago and he's called me every day since then. Sometimes we talk about relationship stuff but mostly we talk as friends. I am strong in my belief that nothing physical will happen until after his divorce is final. My thoughts and emotions all over the place, from night to day. My problem is that I don't know if I can ever trust him. I am so afraid of being hurt by him again and yet I am also afraid of the regret I will feel if I don't give this a chance. Sometimes I feel like a fool for even considering the possibility of a relationship with him. Why allow him to get close when he's already hurt me deeply? Other times I think that if he goes through this process, gets divorced and takes time to heal, there may be hope for a healthy relationship. He has said several time he wants to do it right this time and doesn't want to hurt me again. Is it even possible to do it right after we made so many mistakes in the past? Thanks for letting me share my story. I welcome any advice you can offer.
seren Posted April 17, 2011 Posted April 17, 2011 Hi Ravens Girl He is now a single man, he left his marriage because he was unhappy. When you were seeing him, his situation was different. That was then, this is now. You could think of it as a new beginning for him, a new life, one where your part would be on a different footing than before. It would be natural for the 'old' relationship to have a bearing on how you view him, but he had a wife back then, so really wasn't available to have a relationship where all could be out there and open. However, now, is a different time and place. I get the impression you are doing all the thinking and waiting for him to make a decision, which sort of sounds one sided, sorry if that is a presumption. Anything is possible, even beginning again from a new start, anything is forgivable if you have clear boundaries and state your expectations. You would not be dating a MM, but a single man, I know it is hard to not allow the past to colour a possible new relationship, but sometimes, looking forwards, seeing him for who he really is, is the only way. My question is, Do you love him for who he is, warts and all, not the once a year guy, but the each and every day guy with flaws, a past that you aren't happy with and if you do, can you trust who that man is? is who he is, an idea, or because of the long history and friend status, does this influence your feeling of what should be? If you hadn't had a previous relationship with him, would you and could you love and trust him?
Author Ravens girl Posted April 17, 2011 Author Posted April 17, 2011 Hi Seren! Thank you for your advice. Your perspective is refreshing and has made me think about things differently. It makes sense to think that our relationship would be different now, as I can have the whole person, not just what's left over. And yes, I am doing a lot of thinking (and so is he) and I do feel like I am in a holding pattern with him (although I am still going out on dates with other men). I am waiting to see if/when his divorce becomes final. In his state, you must file for legal separation, wait a period of time, then file for divorce. The time period for legal separation is not over yet, so no divorce papers have been filed. I am also giving him space to deal with things in his own way, things I can't help him with, like a routine with his kids, working out property distribution, and learning how to co-parent. I also want to give him space to freely grieve the end of his marriage in whatever way works best for him. I personally believe that it isn't healthy to jump from one relationship into another without a breathing period. I am struggling with the whole "put the past to rest" concept. I struggle between wanting to start fresh and not repeating the same old mistakes. If we do get together, I don't want to constantly feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and I don't want to punish him for things done in the past. Your question about loving him warts and all is another big issue I am thinking about. Our past relationship had lots of phone time and frequent weekends together, but I don't believe either of us saw a complete picture. It wasn't daily life, with daily hassles and struggles. I now see him without rose colored glasses, so I can see his faults, I just don't know if I can accept them.
Carrot2000 Posted April 17, 2011 Posted April 17, 2011 He may be single, but he's still not available since he's not ready for a relationship and probably won't be ready for a while. Use this time to get to know him outside of an affair dynamic. You may find that what you felt for all those years was real, or you may find that the passion and connection were part of the affair fog.
fooled once Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 You have plenty of time; so don't rush anything. Let all the legal things happen that need to - the separation, divorce, etc. Let him deal with the break up of his marriage/his family. Let him deal with custody issues, etc. Let him handle HIS life and once things have settled, see what you are feeling. I worry for you that since he didn't contact you to tell you he had separated 3 months prior, that he is using you as a crutch/an exit affair. And once he gets settled into being a part time dad, he is going to start dating and will find someone else. I just think it is very strange that he didn't call you after he moved out. Had you not called him to tell him of the friend passing, when was he going to contact you? Proceed with caution. Good luck
Breezy Trousers Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) New relationship energy is intense for everybody. New relationship energy is notoriously intense and prolonged in affairs because of the illicit secrecy and heightened sense of drama/danger. But new relationship energy is just the initial rocket blast. It doesn't necessarily lead to a long-term relationship. Healthy long-term relationships STAY in the air through emotional intelligence and safety exhibited by both partners. Most affair partners aren't exhibiting much emotional intelligence. Dishonesty. Manipulation. Emotional drama. Poor boundaries. Poor impulse control ... Certainly an emotionally intelligent person would not dump someone without explanation. That demonstrates lack of empathy, not caring.... Not telling you about the divorce suggests to me that you were not a high priority to him ... People lacking in emotional intelligence aren't the safest people to have relationships with. Exciting, for sure. Danger is always exciting -- that's why they recommend people on first dates do something risky together because it bonds people quickly (so does traumatic bonding). But it's not safe, and true intimacy requires safety. As it always said here: Look at their actions, don't listen to their words. You can't have long-term HEALTHY (= happy, connected) relationships with people who fail to demonstrate emotional intelligence. It's not possible. So even if you "won" someone from this scenario, he or she wouldn't exactly be a prize. Time usually bears that out. Edited April 18, 2011 by Breezy Trousers
WorldIsYours Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 He left his wife when he first cheated. You two deserve each other.
TurboGirl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 New relationship energy is intense for everybody. New relationship energy is notoriously intense and prolonged in affairs because of the illicit secrecy and heightened sense of drama/danger. But new relationship energy is just the initial rocket blast. It doesn't necessarily lead to a long-term relationship. Healthy long-term relationships STAY in the air through emotional intelligence and safety exhibited by both partners. Most affair partners aren't exhibiting much emotional intelligence. Dishonesty. Manipulation. Emotional drama. Poor boundaries. Poor impulse control ... Certainly an emotionally intelligent person would not dump someone without explanation. That demonstrates lack of empathy, not caring.... Not telling you about the divorce suggests to me that you were not a high priority to him ... People lacking in emotional intelligence aren't the safest people to have relationships with. Exciting, for sure. Danger is always exciting -- that's why they recommend people on first dates do something risky together because it bonds people quickly (so does traumatic bonding). But it's not safe, and true intimacy requires safety. As it always said here: Look at their actions, don't listen to their words. You can't have long-term HEALTHY (= happy, connected) relationships with people who fail to demonstrate emotional intelligence. It's not possible. So even if you "won" someone from this scenario, he or she wouldn't exactly be a prize. Time usually bears that out. Wow what a great post. Totally agree with that. The fact that he didn't call you and tell you that he had left his wife - that you found out when YOU called him, was a huge red flag for me. I would not be talking with him on the phone every day. He needs to learn how to stand on his own without your emotional support. Maybe limit speaking with him to 2x a week. When he does starting dating and he dates others to sow his wild oats, you will not feel so good about investing all of that time yakking on the phone with him. Limit your time, don't give too much here. Let him show you if he is the man you hope he it. Time will tell.
Flabbergaster Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Then, a few months ago, I called to tell him ... He told me that he never stopped loving me and that he wasn't ready for a relationship now, but wants one with me in the future. A number of people are saying it's a bad sign that he didn't contact. I don't necessarily agree. Is he in therapy? Is he fairly self-aware of reasons for his actions, as a person? It's possible he fully intended to contact you after his D and recovery. I'm very encouraged that he told you he wants an R with you...but isn't ready for it yet. If he has gotten therapy and/or is very aware of himself, he understands that the best chance an R would have would be if he were already divorced and somewhat recovered before he tells you. He would realize that calling you up to say "hey, i'm separated and, you know, i might even get a divorce soon" is not a good way to start up again with someone that was already the OW. So I'm encouraged that he didn't call you. It would be better if he had not told you yet...that would take a LOT of willpower, after you called him. Remember: you called him, he didn't call you. My thoughts and emotions all over the place, from night to day. My problem is that I don't know if I can ever trust him....[snip]... Is it even possible to do it right after we made so many mistakes in the past? These are good questions for you to be asking yourself! I think it's possible, it's a new R. I think it depends on how mature the two of you are, how OPEN, and how safe you can both feel. (Of course I'm biased because I would want a particular xOW to think it's possible.) I think you should come up with ways to make each other feel safe, and agree to them as requirements for an R, before you get into the R. I would suggest bringing this up with him soon. I think it would help a lot if you go to couple's therapy together. Probably individual therapy for each of you, as well (same therapist). I would suggest to plan on therapy sessions together for the first few years, maybe plan on a minimum number per year for the duration of your R. You don't want to go for a year, stop going, then start worrying if he's straying. He'll have to be willing to be completely open to you; gps of where he is, all the time. Show you how to read his sms and phone logs, etc. No passwords that you don't know, ever. No doing email in private,at least not in the beginning. No time alone with 'lady friends,' he can't have them anymore until you're comfortable with the idea.
Silly_Girl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 I worry for you that since he didn't contact you to tell you he had separated 3 months prior, that he is using you as a crutch/an exit affair. And once he gets settled into being a part time dad, he is going to start dating and will find someone else. I just think it is very strange that he didn't call you after he moved out. Had you not called him to tell him of the friend passing, when was he going to contact you? RG - I don't think he is using you as a crutch. To me, he would be relying on you soothing him, mopping his brow, helping him to feel good and boosting his ego. I think the fact he's been dealing with things on his own is a good sign... And as for dating someone else, I see some posters raise this all the time but don't actually recall reading it on here and I've been here a year... Maybe there was one I can think of - nope, that was someone who went back to his wife and got another OW, so no, I don't think him going off and dating elsewhere is necessarily an imminent threat. Great advice from sadintexas, and from flabbergaster.
Author Ravens girl Posted April 18, 2011 Author Posted April 18, 2011 Thank you all for the great advice!!! It's nice to be able to talk about it openly, my other friends cringe at the mention of his name. I asked him weeks ago why he didn't tell me sooner that he moved out and started divorce proceedings and he said that he didn't tell me because he's left his wife several times in the past and always reconciled with her, so he didn't want to tell me until he was certain it was more permanent. He also said that he didn't see a point in telling me because I've told him that he and I would never be more than friends, marriage or not. I think I have the general idea, but can someone please explain to me what an exit affair is and how to spot one so I know what to look for. Thanks. He seems to be a fairly self aware person and can examine his own actions. From conversations prior to his separation, he explained why he disappeared, he knows why he stayed with his wife (more than just the kids) and can share that with me (although I must admit I wasn't always ready to hear what he had to say). As for therapy, I am a firm believer in it. I started therapy after my father suddenly passed away about 10 years ago, and I found one that was awesome! She didn't mince words, told it like she saw it but without bashing you over the head, and it was absolutely refreshing. I stopped going about a year ago as I moved 3 hours away. I have not brought up the subject of couples therapy with him, mainly because we are not a couple yet. I will keep this in mind when/if we start dating. I have not seen him in person since the memorial (he lives a few hours away so any visit would be overnight and I just don't trust my own will power) so the only way to figure out if we are compatible outside the affair is to talk on the phone. Mostly, our conversations are short (10-20 minutes) and cover things like current news, books/movies, hobbies, or how our day is going. He keeps me up to date on his separation but only after he's made a decision, like she's keeping the house and he gets the cabin, or she has the kids Easter morning but he gets them in the afternoon. I don't really want to be part of the decision making process because I think he has to figure this out for himself and right now, it has very little to do with me. But we also occasionally talk about things in our past or a potential future, there is a lot of air to clear. He also told me that he calls everyday so that I know he hasn't disappeared and because he enjoys talking with me. I enjoy talking with him as well. I laugh with him almost as much as I laugh with my girlfriends. Keeping the emotional connection to a minimum is--well--really hard. I find myself looking forward to his call and sharing things with him. But I also find myself scared to death that I have allowed him back into my life. During our affair, it seemed like we had many things in common and it still feels that way, but that's common in the beginning. So I have no idea whether this good communication will last into the future. Can someone please flip to the last page and tell me how it ends!
Owl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Thank you all for the great advice!!! It's nice to be able to talk about it openly, my other friends cringe at the mention of his name Why is that?
Author Ravens girl Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 My friends grew tired of the same old story long ago. He came into and left my life a few times and each time he left they helped me pick up the pieces from Hurricane MM. Plus, they did not approve of my dating a MM in the first place.
phillyfan Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Dude, it doesnt need to be this hard. Look at the facts: first he cudnt be wit u because he was married, 2nd, he gets divorced but didnt tell u, and now he cant b wit u because he is playin the field. He is sendin u a message: he isnt interested. Sorry but he dont sound like much of a catch anyway n i am sure u can do betta. Move on!!!
mitchell Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 Did you have sex with this man while he was married?
daisy love Posted April 21, 2011 Posted April 21, 2011 It's GREAT that he's moving in the right direction! No one knows what the future holds. Believe in your love. Everything will go from there!
Author Ravens girl Posted April 25, 2011 Author Posted April 25, 2011 Thank you phillyfan for your thoughts. I welcome your opinion and what you said does reflect many doubts that I have. I would like to set the record straight. He isn't divorced yet, but is legally separated. Also, I am the one insisting that he date and/or sleep with other people before we get together. He said that he doesn't want to do that, but I fully expect him to change his mind. I continue to date other people during this period, but nothing remotely serious. I do not want to sit around and wait for him to get his ducks in a row. Yes mitchell, we had both an emotional and physical affair in the past, but right now, there is nothing physical going on. Thank you for your encouragement daisy. I do not yet trust in this relationship but I hope that will change over time. Taking this slow is very hard for me with this man. In other new relationships, I don't have this problem because we are getting to know each other. But here, we've known each other for years. Sometimes I feel like the waiting is pointless and we should just be together, and other times I know that it is necessary. My willpower is slowly eroding.
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