zengirl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 You approach this from a scientific viewpoint. Mine is more emotional and spiritual. You see a bunch of cells, I see a person with a soul. So we're not going to agree, but I enjoyed the discussion. Please don't tell me how *I* approach it. I do see it scientifically, but I wouldn't say I see it any less emotionally (I am VERY attached, emotionally, to the idea of freedom with MY body, as a woman) or even spiritually. Our versions of spirituality are simply different, as is our notion of souls likely. I don't believe in individual souls, nor imposing religious/spiritual morality on law. We definitely approach it from different places. To me, science and spirituality are very interconnected.
Jazzari Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Please don't tell me how *I* approach it. I do see it scientifically, but I wouldn't say I see it any less emotionally (I am VERY attached, emotionally, to the idea of freedom with MY body, as a woman) or even spiritually. Our versions of spirituality are simply different, as is our notion of souls likely. I don't believe in individual souls, nor imposing religious/spiritual morality on law. We definitely approach it from different places. To me, science and spirituality are very interconnected.Yikes. Backing away from the thread now. Have a nice day and don't forget to take the meds. And you sure as hell aren't attached to the "fetus" emotionally or spiritually which is what I meant. Sheesh.
TheLoneSock Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 If it was already an individual person, it wouldn't need a womb. Lol, some people try so hard to show their witty logic that they just end up failing hard instead. By your logic, any living thing on the planet who's survival is based on symbiosis is not an "individual life". Foot, meet mouth.
Thedude22 Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Highly dependent on where I was in my life and who the person was but right now, yes. I don't like kids and I don't have my life anywhere near to figured out yet, no way am I ready to put my life into something like that. I think it is irresponsible for anyone to have a child they don't want and I surely would not want it. Sure not using condoms is irresponsible, so is having sex for any other reason but pro-creation, but it happens. I personally HATE condoms and a lot of guys do. My reaction is mainly to have oral sex and have penetration sex only with girls I've been dating awhile and know are clean and are pro-choice. Other guys just cross the fingers and hope against STDs and "pull-out".
tinktronik Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Please don't tell me how *I* approach it. I do see it scientifically, but I wouldn't say I see it any less emotionally (I am VERY attached, emotionally, to the idea of freedom with MY body, as a woman) or even spiritually. Our versions of spirituality are simply different, as is our notion of souls likely. I don't believe in individual souls, nor imposing religious/spiritual morality on law. We definitely approach it from different places. To me, science and spirituality are very interconnected. I happen to completely agree with you ZenGirl. AND I'm 9 months pregnant.
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Hypothetically (or maybe this happened to you) if you had sex with your girl over and over, didn't use condoms and got her pregnant, would you ask her to have an abortion? Be honest, no judgement. Girls, were you in a situation like this? Thanks I am pro-life and would not get an abortion unless raped, my life was in danger, or maybe if the fetus was not growing/forming properly in the first trimester of pregnancy (which is hard to know what is best to do in this case) Except for the reasons above, my boyfriend would not ask me to abort... he is pro-life too. Because babies are a wonderful and incredible responsibility, it's good to talk about what would happen if we get pregnant before having sex, I think. (not like right before lol, but while getting to know each other better before getting all lovey-dovey)
Lilmisus Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 The OP, frankly, confounds me. Why the bleeding fxxk would you be having sex without contraception if you don't want kids? A guy wanting to fxxk without contraception when kids are out of the question, in the first place, is a bullet best dodged ASAP. One guy that I knew had sex with his girlfriend all the time and they refused to wear a condom, since "it didn't feel as good." When she ended up getting an STD from him, I think it was enough to show them that they needed to start wrapping it up. Surprisingly, a year later, she's still not pregnant (thank God).
D-Lish Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 I just went through this. A broken condom, a pregnancy, then a miscarriage. He didn't ask me to have an abortion- he only said he'd support whatever I chose, but didn't feel he was ready for a child, I was back and forth between whether or not to have an abortion when nature made up it's mind for me.
musemaj11 Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Anyone who has sex with a condom or with birth control is committing abortion.
Jazzari Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Anyone who has sex with a condom or with birth control is committing abortion. Abortion is defined as "the intentional termination of pregnancy by killing and expelling an embryo or a fetus". Preventing pregnancy is not abortion. By your definition abstinence would also be abortion.
Stung Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 I am pro-life and would not get an abortion unless raped, my life was in danger, or maybe if the fetus was not growing/forming properly in the first trimester of pregnancy (which is hard to know what is best to do in this case) Except for the reasons above, my boyfriend would not ask me to abort... he is pro-life too. ) If you want to have the choice to be able to abort if you get raped or your life is endangered by your pregnancy or the fetus is congenitally malformed and wouldn't survive, then you are in fact pro-choice. Being politically pro-choice does not mean that you think abortion is the best option for everyone or that you would choose to have one yourself.
aerogurl87 Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Well if you weren't using condoms or any type of birth control and she got pregnant, I don't think you should ask her to abort. That's what happens when you have unprotected sex, a baby comes along and well you gotta deal with the consequences of your actions. By the way, my ex told me that if I got pregnant after he asked for us to have unprotected sex, that I'd have to get an abortion. I laughed in his face and told him to grow the f*ck up.
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Sure, embryos are parastitic organisms biologically. They require another organism (the mother) to survive and be viable. Healthy human and other animal embryos are not categorized as "parasitic organisms" According to the American Science Heritage dictionary, a parasite is defined as follows: "parasite (pār'ə-sīt') Pronunciation Key An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease. ◇ A parasite that lives or feeds on the outer surface of the host's body, such as a louse, tick, or leech, is called an ectoparasite . Ectoparasites do not usually cause disease themselves although they are frequently a vector of disease, as in the case of ticks, which can transmit the organisms that cause such diseases as Rocky Mountain spotted fever and Lyme disease. ◇ A parasite that lives inside the body of its host is called an endoparasite . Endoparasites include organisms such as tapeworms, hookworms, and trypanosomes that live within the host's organs or tissues, as well as organisms such as sporozoans that invade the host's cells. See more at host. " The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parasite Parasite has a very negative meaning, and the relationship between a Mom and the "fruit" of her womb is not negative, but is in fact a beautiful and amazing coexistence, without which none of us would be here. Please notice that in the detailed definition of parasite above, human embryos are not listed as endoparasites. Rather, tapeworms, hookworms, and creatures such as this are parasites. Comparing a human embryo's relationship to the Mom to a parasite (tapeworm, hookworm, ...)'s "relationship" with a host is not really accurate or the best. Babies are not parasitic. True, and if all goes well, human embryos become babies... They are able to live, breathe, laugh, and persist on their own --- biologicallyAgain, if all goes well, human embryos arrive at this state. ; obviously they are rather defenseless and require other organisms to care for them, but they don't need the bodies of the other organisms). I'm just going by the definitions in a basic biology textbook here.Do basica biology textbooks call human embryos parasites??? Embryos and even fetuses are not viable on their own. According to the same dictionary, an embryo is the following (please notice there is NO reference to the embryo being a parasite, because the embryo is NOT a parasite nor should be described as such.) " apocryphal leitmotif naturalism ellipsis embryo - 9 dictionary results .sponsored_Img { background: url("http://4.afs.googleadservices.com/images/partners/CNvboPS6pagCFUHu7QodrGFMLQ/aj-lexico-dict-testing.png") no-repeat scroll 0% 0% transparent; float: right; margin-top: 4px; width: 91px; height: 12px; cursor: pointer; } Embryo www.parents.com Fetal Development Month By Month - Free Pregnancy Guide From Parents® Embryo Definition Dictionary.com Find Definitions For Any Word.Get Your Free Dictionary.com Toolbar. .shd_hdr1 { width: 100%; }.sep_top1 { position: relative; }.citesourceseperator { border-bottom: 1px solid rgb(228, 228, 228); margin-top: 15px; margin-bottom: 7px; }.sep_top1 table { margin-top: -2px; margin-bottom: -3px; }.results_content ul, .results_content ol { margin-bottom: -3px; }.LImg { background-image: url("http://sp1.dictionary.com/en/i/dictionary/AddThis_v2/sprite_icons.png"); }.Lsentnce { margin-top: 14px; } em·bry·o /ˈɛmbriˌoʊ/ Show Spelled [em-bree-oh] Show IPA noun, plural -os, adjective –noun 1. the young of a viviparous animal, especially of a mammal, in the early stages of development within the womb, in humans up to the end of the second month. Compare fetus. 2. Botany . the rudimentary plant usually contained in the seed. 3. any multicellular animal in a developmental stage preceding birth or hatching. 4. the beginning or rudimentary stage of anything: He charged that the party policy was socialism in embryo. –adjective 5. embryonic. Use embryo in a Sentence See images of embryo Search embryo on the Web Origin: 1580–90; < Medieval Latin embryon-, embryo < Greek émbryon, noun use of neuter of émbryos ingrowing, equivalent to em- em-2 + bry- (stem of brýein to swell) + -os adj. suffix ._vtad { border-top: 1px solid rgb(182, 208, 221); padding: 15px 0pt 0pt; margin: 1em 0pt 0pt; background-image: url("http://syndication.visualthesaurus.com/ddc/gradient.png"); background-repeat: repeat-x; background-position: 0pt 0pt; }._vtad a { text-decoration: none; }._vtad a:hover { text-decoration: underline; }._vtad_flt { float: right; margin: 0pt 0pt 10px 7px; }._vtad_flt img { vertical-align: top; margin-bottom: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); }a._vtad_explore { letter-spacing: -0.4px; font-family: verdana; display: block; line-height: 10px; font-size: 11px; color: rgb(0, 80, 187); }._vtad_related { font-family: verdana; font-size: 12px; margin: 6px 0pt; }._vtad_related a { color: black; }._vtad_header { font-family: georgia; line-height: 10px; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(87, 87, 87); }._vtad_header img { vertical-align: top; margin-right: 7px; }._vtad_header a { font-family: Times New Roman,serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bold; color: black; }a._vtad_other { font-family: verdana; font-size: 1em; color: rgb(0, 80, 187); }Explore the Visual Thesaurus » Related Words for : embryo conceptus, fertilized egg View more related words » #macnt, #alM8 { display: block; } embryo- a combining form representing embryo in compound words: embryology. Also, especially before a vowel , embry-. Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011. Cite This Source | Link To embryo World English Dictionary embryo (ˈɛmbrɪˌəʊ) — n , pl -bryos 1. an animal in the early stages of development following cleavage of the zygote and ending at birth or hatching 2. Compare fetus the human product of conception up to approximately the end of the second month of pregnancy 3. a plant in the early stages of development: in higher plants, the plumule, cotyledons, and radicle within the seed 4. an undeveloped or rudimentary state (esp in the phrase in embryo ) 5. something in an early stage of development: an embryo of an idea [C16: from Late Latin, from Greek embruon, from bruein to swell] 'embryoid — adj Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition 2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009 Cite This Source Word Origin & History embryo mid-14c., from M.L. embryo , from Gk. embryon , in Homer, "young animal," later, "fruit of the womb," lit. "that which grows," from en- "in" + bryein "to swell, be full." Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper Cite This Source Medical Dictionary em·bryo definition Pronunciation: /ˈem-brē-ˌō/ Function: n pl em·bry·os ; 1 archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching 2 : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception compare FETUS Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2007 Merriam-Webster, Inc. Cite This Source embryo em·bry·o (ěm'brē-ō') n. pl. em·bry·os An organism in its early stages of development, especially before it has reached a distinctively recognizable form. An organism at any time before full development, birth, or hatching. The fertilized egg of a vertebrate animal following cleavage. In humans, the prefetal product of conception from implantation through the eighth week of development. embryo- or embry- pref. Embryo: embryogenesis. The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. Cite This Source Science Dictionary embryo (ěm'brē-ō') Pronunciation Key An animal in its earliest stage of development, before all the major body structures are represented. In humans, the embryonic stage lasts through the first eight weeks of pregnancy. In humans, other placental mammals, and other viviparous animals, young born as embryos cannot thrive. In marsupials, the young are born during the embryonic stage and complete their development outside the uterus, attached to a teat within the mother's pouch. The developing young of an egg-laying animal before hatching. The sporophyte of a plant in its earliest stages of development, such as the miniature, partially developed plant contained within a seed before germination. embryonic adjective (ěm'brē-ŏn'ĭk) The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2002. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved." People should not be forced to be human incubators or told what to do with their own bodies. The end. You disagree with me, I get it. Human incubators... if I ever have the honor of being a Mom, I would be proud and grateful to be a human incubator lol!!! No, I've never been pregnant, nor given birth. I actually want kids someday.You mean you would actually choose to be a human incubator? I actually wouldn't get an abortion (personally wouldn't choose to do so) but I would feel suffocated in a society where I didn't have the right to. It's my damn body, and I'll do what I like and what *I* choose. I won't be forced to be a human incubator. ? I am sure many people would rather not have a "consequence" to having "unprotected sex", but that does not mean that getting pregnant forces someone to be a human incubator. Having a baby is an honor; it's the way our species continues. It's not a cold heartless chore. There aren't many things I'd fight in a war for, but this right would be one of them. I feel like it's a fundamental human freedom. There are other people who feel like it's a fundamental human freedom that a human embryo has, to live. The poor human embryo, who if healthy and given nourishment and the opportunity, does grow and mature into a baby... in just 9 months. That's not a lot of time really. Just 9 months difference shouldn't mean lack of freedom, I wouldn't think. I think sex is a healthy part of life, and denying people the right to sex is also cruel. Agreed There is no 100% foolproof way to avoid pregnancy (short of something brutal like a hysterectomy) so abortion must be legal or else you ARE forcing women to carry children. Lol, I think the attitude is important here. If women think bearing children is a horrible atrocity, then yeah maybe they think it's "forced." ? The only reason I personally would consider me being pregnant and giving birth to a baby is if I was raped. Other than that, I would not see giving birth to be "forced" but rather an honor of being a woman!!! One of the millions of good positive things about being a woman is we have the honor and beautiful and amazing privilege of bearing children!!! That said, of course, people should be safe and smart about their sex, True Edited April 18, 2011 by elaina
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) If you want to have the choice to be able to abort if you get raped or your life is endangered by your pregnancy or the fetus is congenitally malformed and wouldn't survive, then you are in fact pro-choice. Being politically pro-choice does not mean that you think abortion is the best option for everyone or that you would choose to have one yourself. I see it as I am pro-life, with 3 exceptions. The exceptions I have are the following: 1. The mother is a victim of rape.... abortion should be in the first trimester. Ideally, the day after pill should be given if she wants (which I personally would want, I think.) 2. The mother's life is in danger (abortion done only to save the life of the Mom.) 3. The fetus is not growing/maturing/developing. This is a very tough one though... I know people who have had babies who they knew would have problems, and yet they love and care for and treasure their child in spite of any imperfection. I very much admire them, so this reason is a tough one that I honestly don't know how I personally would decide. Other than these 3 exceptions, I am pro-life. Edited April 18, 2011 by elaina
Stung Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Elaina, you might not like the term "human incubator," and that is fine--but it doesn't negate her point. I have actually been pregnant and had a baby, and I love my son dearly and wouldn't trade him for the world, but pregnancy is no walk in the park. It was an honor and a joy because I CHOSE to be pregnant, and to be a mother, and I was excited by the prospect. The idea of HAVING to carry a pregnancy to term against my will is repugnant to me. Like many, many other women I had a difficult pregnancy. I was hospitalized with dehydration from throwing up constantly, I was put on bed rest from bleeding, I got gestational diabetes, I had to have a C-section because my son was transverse-breech. I had to go to the hospital 4x a week for extra ultrasounds and monitoring, losing a LOT of time from work. More commonly, my back hurt, ALL THE TIME. I had heartburn for 9 months. My feet hurt, because the bones spread so much I gained an entire shoe size. I got pregnancy rhinitis, so I could barely breathe or sleep for the first trimester. I got my first-ever cavity, because the fetus was leaching calcium right out of my teeth. I was sick, and exhausted, and it hurt to walk more than a block towards the end. Taking someone's autonomy to make decisions over their own body should not be taken lightly or written off as no big deal because anyone believes pregnancy is an honor. As for the actual OP, I am pro-choice. I do not believe that a soul enters at the moment of conception, and while I rejoiced to see my own early ultrasounds I was in love with the prospect of what my baby would be, I didn't believe that the little bundle of cellular potential was yet thinking, feeling, separate life. And yet like most pro-choice people I have ever met I also believe that that little bundle of potential life should be regarded with respect, and extinguishing it is not ever something that should be taken lightly. The situation presented in the opening post sickens me. If I were dictator of the world, I would have no particular moral dilemma with permanently sterilizing fools who think it's a good idea to have lots and lots of unprotected sex and then beg for abortions as birth control when the natural and entirely foreseeable consequences arise.
zengirl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Yikes. Backing away from the thread now. Have a nice day and don't forget to take the meds. And you sure as hell aren't attached to the "fetus" emotionally or spiritually which is what I meant. Sheesh. Maybe what you meant but was not what you said. Why is it when someone is passionate about restricting the right to control our own bodies their passion is okay, but I should have "meds" because I'm passionate about my right to not be enslaved in my own body, to have the freedom to choose what happens to it? You said I disagreed with you because I didn't approach this from an emotional and spiritual place; I corrected you. You're clearly uncomfortable with the fact that my emotion and spirituality are different than yours. Lol, some people try so hard to show their witty logic that they just end up failing hard instead. By your logic, any living thing on the planet who's survival is based on symbiosis is not an "individual life". Foot, meet mouth. If you mean biological symbiosis (as in two organisms that require each other to survive), I'd say, yes, that's debateable. Of course symbiosis implies that BOTH organisms require each other to live, which is a different thing from how parasites live and embryos live at that stage. The mother/host is not "helped" by the embryo's existence (biologically, I mean). She is better off, biologically, as an individual organism. Pregnancy brings with it huge health risks (most of which we've lessened in this day and age) and has never brought with it major biological advantages. I happen to completely agree with you ZenGirl. AND I'm 9 months pregnant. Thanks. Healthy human and other animal embryos are not categorized as "parasitic organisms" Perhaps you could make the argument that because it's not a 'different kind' of organism --- the material is genetically the same species. Of course, science distinguishes between offspring and species that are always parasitic; however, at the very barest, an embryo behaves in the body as a parasite would. We could have the scientific debate, if you like, but I'm not sure that's what you really care about. arasite has a very negative meaning, and the relationship between a Mom and the "fruit" of her womb is not negative, but is in fact a beautiful and amazing coexistence, without which none of us would be here. Please notice that in the detailed definition of parasite above, human embryos are not listed as endoparasites. Rather, tapeworms, hookworms, and creatures such as this are parasites. Comparing a human embryo's relationship to the Mom to a parasite (tapeworm, hookworm, ...)'s "relationship" with a host is not really accurate or the best. A human embryo does mostly negative things to the female body, biologically speaking. Now choosing to carry a child to term can be a lovely and beautiful experience if it is a CHOICE. I'm not denying that (hey, I even want kids someday, though I'm ambivalent on whether I'd like to have them, or just adopt them). A woman who chooses to get pregnant, is happy being pregnant, and has a baby---that's all well and good, and what I'm saying takes nothing away from that. I'm saying that biologically there is a cost to the mother/host, and not a benefit, and also that to treat am embryo like a person is ridiculous because people don't have to be attached to other people to live. If you don't want the embryo inside of you but are forced to carry it by law as a human incubator, I think a parasitic relationship definitely exists. Do basica biology textbooks call human embryos parasites??? No, of course not, but you cannot teach evolution in most schools these days. How could they? Judeo-Christians rule this nation. Human incubators... if I ever have the honor of being a Mom, I would be proud and grateful to be a human incubator lol!!! That's your choice. You mean you would actually choose to be a human incubator? Potentially. ? I am sure many people would rather not have a "consequence" to having "unprotected sex", but that does not mean that getting pregnant forces someone to be a human incubator. Having a baby is an honor; it's the way our species continues. It's not a cold heartless chore. Having a baby is not an honor if you don't WANT it. Thankfully, here and now, getting pregnant does not force someone to be a human incubator, as we have choice and options available, however limited they may try to make it in certain states. There are other people who feel like it's a fundamental human freedom that a human embryo has, to live. The poor human embryo, who if healthy and given nourishment and the opportunity, does grow and mature into a baby... in just 9 months. That's not a lot of time really. Just 9 months difference shouldn't mean lack of freedom, I wouldn't think. The embyro is not an individual. It requires the host/mother to be viable. It certainly doesn't have any individuality or ability to assert freedoms. It doesn't have a body of its own that can persist without the host. And the idea that it's "Just 9 months" is ridiculous. A pregnancy that is carried to term permanently changes the body's biology, first of all. Second of all, would it be okay if I threw you in a cage for just 9 months or sold you to slavery for just 9 months? Forcing a woman to let something grow and come out of her body that she does not want to happen is brutal and barbaric. Lol, I think the attitude is important here. If women think bearing children is a horrible atrocity, then yeah maybe they think it's "forced." ? The only reason I personally would consider me being pregnant and giving birth to a baby is if I was raped. Other than that, I would not see giving birth to be "forced" but rather an honor of being a woman!!! One of the millions of good positive things about being a woman is we have the honor and beautiful and amazing privilege of bearing children!!! If a woman doesn't have a choice in the matter, she is forced. I don't think every pregnancy is a tragedy, but someone who wanted an abortion but was restricted from having one? I find that tragic.
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Elaina, you might not like the term "human incubator," and that is fine--but it doesn't negate her point. It's not that I don't like it... it just made me laugh. Human incubator in itself just sounds funny. I have actually been pregnant and had a baby, and I love my son dearly and wouldn't trade him for the world,Congratulations but pregnancy is no walk in the park. Of course not. Most things in life aren't a walk in the park either. Puberty and raising teenagers isn't for the most part a walk in the park, from what my Mom has told me (and can you believe she was referring to me?) Sorry Mom It was an honor and a joy because I CHOSE to be pregnant,Well, I am sure it made you happy because you wanted to be pregnant. I don't know if you can say "choose", because pregnancy is more a can happen/does happen or can't happen/doesn't happen. I myself have never been pregnant and possibly can't I don't know yet. I've only tried to conceive with my ex-husband, and maybe him or I or both of us can't. Many women who can't get pregnant or carry a baby to term would love to choose to be pregnant, but can't. However, female humans being pregnant is an honor in itself, whether one "chooses" to be or not. It's a part of what makes female humans so amazing, just one of the millions of reasons women are incredibly important. and to be a mother, and I was excited by the prospect. The idea of HAVING to carry a pregnancy to term against my will is repugnant to me. I am sure the idea of having sex against your will is also repugnant to you? It is to me. That is why I consider abortion in the case of rape to be an exception in my pro-life stance. There are many ways to avoid getting pregnant while having sex. Even though non are 100% always pregnancy-free, they do keep the chances of getting pregnant down. People who are old enough and mature enough to have sex should realize the benefits to sex (which include having babies... that's a benefit, not a risk! To think it's a risk is actually going against Nature's method of reproduction. Reproduction is a good thing, not a bad thing.) and risks (which are diseases, emotional pain if breaking up, and so on.) Like many, many other women I had a difficult pregnancy. I was hospitalized with dehydration from throwing up constantly, I was put on bed rest from bleeding, I got gestational diabetes, I had to have a C-section because my son was transverse-breech. I had to go to the hospital 4x a week for extra ultrasounds and monitoring, losing a LOT of time from work. More commonly, my back hurt, ALL THE TIME. I had heartburn for 9 months. My feet hurt, because the bones spread so much I gained an entire shoe size. I got pregnancy rhinitis, so I could barely breathe or sleep for the first trimester. I got my first-ever cavity, because the fetus was leaching calcium right out of my teeth. I was sick, and exhausted, and it hurt to walk more than a block towards the end. My Mom had horrible morning sickness thanks to me. I still hear about and am very grateful, though admittedly I feel a tad guilty. Apparently I was also a very whiny baby too. Oops. I didn't know any better then! Believe me, it wasn't a conspiracy on my part to make my Darling Mom miserable! Last time Mom told me of all the suffering I had caused her, I moaned to her that at least she got to experience it!!! I don't know if I ever will experience being morning sick or taking care of my own crying baby. I am jealous!!! My sisters have had c-sections and yes many women have painful pregnancies and are so happy once their babies are finally out! However, if you look on the bright side, women are tough. Thanks to medicine and medical advancements, we can handle the pain easier, and yeah, we women rule. I seriously think men couldn't handle being pregnant! Taking someone's autonomy to make decisions over their own body should not be taken lightly or written off as no big deal because anyone believes pregnancy is an honor. Each women should take care of her body and make responsible decisions. If a women doesn't want to get pregnant, there are many precautions (like birth control pills and condoms and all sorts of ways) to make pregnancy less likely. However, it is an honor to get pregnant, an honor that maybe women who can't get pregnant understand perhaps better than women who can and just abort their babies, while the women who can't get pregnant desperately wish to be a human incubator. As for the actual OP, I am pro-choice. I do not believe that a soul enters at the moment of conception, and while I rejoiced to see my own early ultrasounds I was in love with the prospect of what my baby would be, I didn't believe that the little bundle of cellular potential was yet thinking, feeling, separate life.That's a good question when the soul enters the body. The time to me is so special is when the heart begins to beat. I have no idea if that's when the soul enters the body, or before or after or even how the soul enters the body? but the heart beating signals a baby to me. If someday I do get pregnant, that's the day I'll be jumping for joy (though carefully!) The heart beating is on day 22 normally, yeah? That I imagine is SO EXCITING!!! And yet like most pro-choice people I have ever met I also believe that that little bundle of potential life should be regarded with respect, and extinguishing it is not ever something that should be taken lightly.That's good. The situation presented in the opening post sickens me. If I were dictator of the world, I would have no particular moral dilemma with permanently sterilizing fools who think it's a good idea to have lots and lots of unprotected sex and then beg for abortions as birth control when the natural and entirely foreseeable consequences arise.Understood, though that would completely and totally go against the right to "choose" but whatever. I see your point and it's a good one. Edited April 18, 2011 by elaina
Jazzari Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 You said I disagreed with you because I didn't approach this from an emotional and spiritual place; I corrected you. You're clearly uncomfortable with the fact that my emotion and spirituality are different than yours. Now who is telling someone else how they feel and think? Hipocrite much? I'm not uncomfortable with the fact you are wrong. Lots of people are. My objection was the way you spazzed for no apparent reason. But it's a sensitive topic and many people aren't able to discuss it easily. So no biggie.
zengirl Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Now who is telling someone else how they feel and think? Hipocrite much? I'm not uncomfortable with the fact you are wrong. Lots of people are. My objection was the way you spazzed for no apparent reason. But it's a sensitive topic and many people aren't able to discuss it easily. So no biggie. I don't believe I "spazzed" any more than you did. I just don't want my strong opinion to be belittled as a viewpoint devoid of emotion or spirituality. I do have strong reactions to that, sure, but that's what happens when you're of a oft-marginalized spiritual path. People here (in the U.S.) think of spirituality solely as Judeo-Christian, and yes, that pisses me off. And "wrong" --- Jeez, yep, that's why I perhaps got a bit annoyed, because of attitudes like that.
Art_Critic Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 I'm not uncomfortable with the fact you are wrong. .... You do realize how that sounds ?
Jazzari Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Oh for goodness sakes! Lighten up guys. It was a poke, not a serious statement!
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Perhaps you could make the argument that because it's not a 'different kind' of organism --- the material is genetically the same species. Of course, science distinguishes between offspring and species that are always parasitic; however, at the very barest, an embryo behaves in the body as a parasite would. We could have the scientific debate, if you like, but I'm not sure that's what you really care about. The above part of your quote that I boldened is very important. Most scientists do not consider offspring (whether in or out of the Mom's body) to be parasites. A parasite is a completely different species than the host. I don't mind having a scientific debate if you want to. I just like any debates to be polite, and if you disagree with me, to tell why and not insult me. I will do the same... tell you why I disagree and I won't insult you. A human embryo does mostly negative things to the female body, biologically speaking. I disagree, because most female adults are naturally equipped to bear children. It's a part of being a woman, to have children, so a human embryo is actually a fruit/product of being a woman and having sex. It's an amazing and beautiful relationship. Does being pregnant bring sickness to some women? Yes, but there are many women who have very easy pregnancies. Much of the negative things, like morning sickness and so on, depend on the women. Not every woman's body reacts the same to the teeny tiny human growing inside her body in the special place DESIGNED for a baby. Now choosing to carry a child to term can be a lovely and beautiful experience if it is a CHOICE.Even women who want to be pregnant can have negative things, like morning sickness and complications, happen to the pregnancy. "Choosing" doesn't mean there will be 0 pain or 0 issues in the pregnancy. It actually would be really nice if that were the case, but sadly many women who want to be pregnant experience pain and sickness and all that too. That's a part of being pregnant for many women, which most women would prefer not to endure. Medicine is awesome. I'm not denying that (hey, I even want kids someday, though I'm ambivalent on whether I'd like to have them, or just adopt them). A woman who chooses to get pregnant, is happy being pregnant, and has a baby---that's all well and good, and what I'm saying takes nothing away from that. I'm saying that biologically there is a cost to the mother/host,The human body has biological "costs" just by living. That's just a part of life. Life includes pain and suffering and death. Fun fun. and not a benefit, I disagree and actually think it's a negative trait in modern day culture to see having babies as a risk, and not a benefit, to sex. Nature shows that being pregnant and having babies is a positive trait for the duration of a species. The people who try so hard to get endangered species to breed understand how positive pregnancy and carrying the baby to term is. It's not a risk or a bad thing; in Nature, it's a positive and a strength. and also that to treat am embryo like a person is ridiculous because people don't have to be attached to other people to live. I disagree, because you and me were embryos once upon a time. Thankfully, we weren't torn out of our mothers' womb. Whether our Moms truly wanted us or not, we were allowed to grow in all our stages of development in the womb. Once out of the womb, we were taken care of and grow through other stages of development. Now, due to nature's course and our mother or caretakers' nurturing, we both have reached the stage of development of being adult women. This is beautiful... all the stages of human development (both inside and outside the Mother's womb) are beautiful (though painful oftentimes for the Mom.) I think my Mom personally has complained to me MORE about the (emotional) pain I've caused her OUTSIDE the womb than inside. If you don't want the embryo inside of you but are forced to carry it by law as a human incubator, I think a parasitic relationship definitely exists. I disagree, because a parasite is a member of a completely different species than the host, and to say that a human embryo is a parasite is not true, whether the Mom wants a tiny human (in the first stage of development) in her or not. No, of course not, but you cannot teach evolution in most schools these days. How could they? Judeo-Christians rule this nation. Lol you know that evolution is taught in most schools these days. About Judeo-Christians,there are many in the USA, but the USA thankfully has separation of church and state, as well as freedom of religion, so everyone has the right to believe what they believe is true. Having a baby is not an honor if you don't WANT it. Thankfully, here and now, getting pregnant does not force someone to be a human incubator, as we have choice and options available, however limited they may try to make it in certain states. Having a baby is an honor in being an adult women. If you think of it this way... can men have babies? No. Can little kids have babies? No. Only women (or girls who have reached puberty) can have babies, and yes this is an honor. It is a mistake to treat women's ability to have children as a derogatory thing or a risk or a bad thing. It's an honor that only women have, to have a baby. Getting pregnant and giving birth to children is a benefit to being a woman. It's a blessing from Nature, not a curse. The embyro is not an individual. Yes the embryo is an individual. Individual means being a separate entity. It requires the host/mother to be viable.A newborn also requires a mother or caretaker who will feed and nurture him/her. It certainly doesn't have any individuality or ability to assert freedoms. It doesn't have a body of its own that can persist without the host. And the idea that it's "Just 9 months" is ridiculous. An embryo does have a body of its own... and the body is forming. The body doesn't stay an embryo forever... 9 months is not a whole lot of time. Other mammals are pregnant for longer or shorter time, but 9 months is the time nature has set for most babies to be ready to leave the womb. "Ridiculous" has no place in polite discussions. A pregnancy that is carried to term permanently changes the body's biology, first of all. That is true. However, the average human female body is made to with the potential for pregnancy being a factor. That is why women have breasts with milk ducts. Men don't. That is why women have wombs. Men don't. The human female body is "designed" for birth. That's a good thing. Second of all, would it be okay if I threw you in a cage for just 9 months or sold you to slavery for just 9 months? Forcing a woman to let something grow and come out of her body that she does not want to happen is brutal and barbaric. There is a marked difference between being encaged, being enslaved, and being pregnant. Female adults' bodies are not specifically made for being encaged or enslaved. However, our bodies are specifically built for pregnancy. Do you disagree? If a woman doesn't have a choice in the matter, she is forced.I agree that if a woman didn't have a choice in having sex, but was raped/molested, then she is forced, and if she gets pregnant out of being raped/sexually molested, then that is forced and abortion is most definitely an option, probably even recommended. I don't think every pregnancy is a tragedy, but someone who wanted an abortion but was restricted from having one? I find that tragic.I agree in a way with Stung here: The situation presented in the opening post sickens me. If I were dictator of the world, I would have no particular moral dilemma with permanently sterilizing fools who think it's a good idea to have lots and lots of unprotected sex and then beg for abortions as birth control when the natural and entirely foreseeable consequences arise. To me, it is a tragedy how people who have sex without thinking of the BENEFITS/risks, get pregnant and then have abortions in order to be free from the responsibilities of having children. That, to me, is a tragedy. (Though yes it is even more a tragedy when women are raped/molested and are pregnant, and I perfectly understand them getting abortions.) Again, getting pregnant is a benefit of having sex for most women. Reproduction is a positive gift of nature, not a negative. If it's a benefit someone doesn't want, then one should take proper precautions. Women's bodies are designed to be pregnant and give birth and provide nutrition for their young. That's a part of what being a woman includes. If a woman wants to go against Nature and not give birth, she should make sure to take preventive precautions while having sex. Edited April 18, 2011 by elaina
elaina Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) When I asked my boyfriend if he was jealous of women's ability to give birth, he said no and that he thinks he's not strong enough to endure what women go through, but he also thinks that women being able to give birth is AMAZING. Edited April 18, 2011 by elaina
Art_Critic Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 Oh for goodness sakes! Lighten up guys. It was a poke, not a serious statement! ..... I guess I was wrong then.
Art_Critic Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 When I asked my boyfriend if he was jealous of women's ability to give birth, he said no and that he thinks he's not strong enough to endure what women go through, but he also thinks that women being able to give birth is AMAZING. +1... so true too....
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