The hate

[WellLetsSee]

I don't know if that will work for you, but it's worth considering what will make you stable and authentic in your relationship with your father, and that might be what you're looking for?

 

Hey You,

 

I mentioned my father here to give an example how NVC works when you give empathy to yourself too.

 

You have suggested how I might consider resolving the pain that stands between me and my parents and how to create a respectful loving relationship. Is this because you would enjoy contributing to my well-being? Were you assuming that I want advice? I am not sure what it is but I enjoy hearing how you wish to support me and contribute to my well-being.

 

This being said - reading this suggestion from you I feel tense and anxious because I was hoping to be heard and understood only.

 

With me you can be very sure, that I want advice when I am asking for it. I do not like unsolicited advice. I think this has to do with my need for autonomy and respect. If someone feels the impulse to advice me on something or suggest something, I appreciate it if they ask me first whether I am open to hearing a suggestion or advice. How do you feel when you read this?

[betterdeal]

A little confused, initially, but clearer now.

 

I was assuming an exchange of ideas, such as your ideas apropos NVP. I had read you as saying you wanted to be part of your father's recovery; to help him. I thought that you might be looking for stability and authenticity for yourself, rather than changes in him, per se. If saying what I think made you uncomfortable, then I apologise.

 

I like my parents to be happy, but I don't presume to be able to achieve that for them. I spent a long time helping them, and in the past year, choose to change the way I interact with them. I made my complaints to them and feel better for it. Our relationship has changed as a consequence, but the breakthrough for me was being able to complain. My mother said at one point "you want everything to be perfect", which is not true. I wanted to be able to react, and speak my mind, first and foremost.

Edited April 18, 2011 by betterdeal

[orangelady]

And this looks like a promising resource for those involved with BPD

 

http://www.bpdrecovery.com/HomePage

 

This site is pretty helpful although seems like everyone has BPD.

[radiodarcy]

while hate definitely isn't a state i want to stay in. it can be a potent motivator in maintaining NC - - particularly when i am feeling vulnerable and missing him. during those times i have a tendency to delude myself; idealizing him and putting him on that (undeserved) pedestal i've had him on for years. the last thing i want to do is feed his ego (end effectively deflate mine) by reaching out to him with a lame text message or a rambling e-mail.

 

anger and hate are - - for me at least - - a means to end. to me anger/hate are no different from a child having a temper tantrum -- i rage and vent until i tire myself out and then i'm fine and can go back to feeling indifferent. the hate/anger will return but over time they will subside and be replaced by indifference.

[flitzanu]

The opposite to Love, is NOT hate.

The opposite to Love, is indiffernece.

 

Hate is merely the flip-side of the Love-coin.

 

If you hate someone, you hold them as closely to you, in your heart and mind, as if you loved them with all your heart and mind.

 

This is also something you have to work through.

 

Ultimately, hate is a weapon that cuts you first.

 

 

holy crap. i'm glad to see someone else that "gets this" as well. do hate my current ex. and only hate her for the other spectrum of love. i want to be indifferent, but hate is as far as i've come.

[TaraMaiden]

Hurrah! An amicable outcome

S

*Squeaky Michael Jackson voice*....

 

...."I'm a lover not a fighter!"

 

[TaraMaiden]

holy crap. i'm glad to see someone else that "gets this" as well. do hate my current ex. and only hate her for the other spectrum of love. i want to be indifferent, but hate is as far as i've come.

 

This may be a process you have to work through.

 

Accept that some inevitable emotions will surface, but at the risk of sounding as if I'm quietly losing my marbles, the way to handle them when they arise is to accept them, and to breathe, deeply, several times.

 

Try to focus on where you actually feel this knot of hate in your body.

Weird I know, and I'm not going to make any suggestions, but generally, it's not too far from where your heart beats, and from where you process food....

 

Isn't it odd that we think of things we need to chew over, because they're food for thought, and we need to digest what we've been told....?

 

In Traditional Chinese Medicine (or TCM for short) it has been an accepted premise (for over 4000 years) that the Spleen and Stomach, are the seat of Thought.

The fact that we also make such connections (as above), would indicate that we don't think it too far from the truth, ourselves.

 

Now, scientists have discovered that there are cells in the thoracic organs which mimic and echo the activities of braincells.

In other words - we really DO get gut reactions, and feelings in the pit of our stomachs.

Our system thinks for us, which is why we lose our appetite when we fall hopelessly in love... or have our heart broken.

 

So pay attention to your body.

It's trying to tell you something.

Listen, and be sympathetic to your own pain.

 

And breathe into that place, give it oxygen, let it expand, let it contract, and as it does, release the tension.

 

Sorry to threadjack.

Just trying to help.

 

[betterdeal]

A lot of the parasympathetic and endocrine systems reside in the abdomen. The adrenal glands, responsible for fight or flight hormones as well as feel good hormones, for example. Also, the thymus glands are situated in front of the heart. These are where the lymphatic system drains into.

 

When we feel threatened or excited, we release adrenal and cortisol from the adrenal glands, amongst other things. The feeling of butterflies in your stomach can actually be the sensation of the adrenal glands emptying.

 

Blood is diverted from areas not needed for a fast physical response to those needed for such. It is diverted from the frontal lobe of the brain and from the stomach, for instance, to the skeletal and cardiac muscles. Our bodies are tuned to deal with the unexpected, to focus on fast movement, be that from a threat (a bear, a wolf, a tiger) or an opportunity (a mate or some prey). We're physically tense. We've stopped playing, stretching and relaxing. We sleep lightly. We eat less. We're all geared up to deal with the unexpected.

 

If we maintain this state of alert for a sustained period (which tends to happen during relationship difficulties), the reduced blood flow to the frontal lobe of the brain become noticeable in the form of sensations of foggy headedness, poor focus and decision making, irrational thinking. As our gastro-intestinal tracts are in the same stand-by mode as our frontal lobe, we're eating less and we become prone to nutritional deficiencies and infection as we don't eat enough of the various nutrients we need. And because we are tense, our ability to move waste products via the lymphatic system is impaired as it relies skeletal muscle contractions to help the movement of lymph through the system.

 

Living on refined sugar and coffee is okay for a night or two if you have a long haul journey to make, but for long period, it doesn't give us what we need.

 

Our tendency to maintain these temporary alert states for long periods is all intrinsically linked to words and our relationship with them, what they mean to each of us individually. When I was 18, mobile phones were exceptionally rare, the Internet unknown, TVs in bedrooms rare. You were more likely to walk to someone's house and knock on their door to see if they were available than phone their home phone. TV was restricted to 4 channels (this is the UK) which were all heavily regulated to mostly provide family-friendly entertainment, news and education and stopped at about 11pm.

 

The causes of us remaining in a state of alert after the event - words and information - were separated from us when we were physically separated. We could live in the here and now because that's all that was available. Indeed, I write this post at 1am on a Tuesday morning. 20 years ago, this would not have been possible. I could read a book or write something on paper, but not communicate with you, or check up on my ex via Facebook, watch bad news stories, or text someone.

 

How I have come to terms with the new landscape is to manage my exposure to information better. I metaphorically shut the verbal door to disturbing information, especially at night. I rarely watch the news or misery reality TV. I have pruned my Facebook contacts down to those people who make me smile, and blocked content from those who talk negatively a lot but with whom I feel a need to maintain a connection (my brother, for example). I read self-help books at night. I am fully present more of the time now, because I am not absorbing these confusing signals from the outside world.

 

My home is my sanctuary. It used to be party-central where people would come for a smoke-over (since the smoking ban in pubs). My house-mate was a problem drinker. I even had my ex living in the spare room after her landlord evicted her one night when drunk by trying to push her and a friend out of the back door. I moved to a quiet, unassuming street in a quiet, unassuming part of town, near fields, not in the Soho district. My ability to drink to forget (and yet create more problems) in like-minded (self-medicating) company has been reduced by virtue of physical distance. My ability to spend a night with the ex or bump into her, or her friends, has equally been reduced, by distance.

 

Physically, my recovery has been quite long. I had physical problems before meeting my ex and many of the stresses in my life were not due to our relationship. Many ailments were long-standing (going back to early teens and early puberty), some were the result of self-medicating.

 

I lost 3 stone (42 pounds) in 3 months. That I was obese meant I was actually at my ideal weight when we parted, but I was malnourished as I wasn't eating well. Other ailments included acne, boils, insomnia, chronic indigestion, heartburn, frequent common cold like symptoms, chronic back and shoulder pain, RSI, rosacea, a noticeable limp, claw hands (fingers curled inwards in resting state), constipation and gum disease.

 

I was falling apart physically, mentally, emotionally. I spent three weeks in hospital. Being fed, put to bed at a set time, in a safe place out of reach of self-medication put me on the road to recovery. The vitamin B12 injections and vitamin B complex tablets helped to revitalise my frontal lobe. My thinking became clearer. My feelings less extreme. I began to relax. Meeting new people - other service users - who were funny, non-judgmental and non connected to my life made a big difference too. We talked about music, love, life, the dangerously disturbed new patients who were stalking the gardens. The talk, music, walk and exercise therapies were entertaining, even if they were geared for all abilities.

 

Work were fantastic. I have a lot of good friends from work, many of whom visited me at hospital (as did lots of other friends and family). When I left the hospital I was given lighter duties and aggressive people were told to back off. Having moved to a new area just before I was hospitalised, I didn't know anyone in the neighbourhood. My neighbour, even though he is with fault, turned out to have had a troubled past and we get on well.

 

I started having massages by a qualified massage therapist. This resolved the long-standing chronic pain in my shoulders, and added to my interest in aromatherapy. I have always liked smells and paid attention to smells. It also started to revitalise my lymphatic system, and as the manipulation aided the flow of lymph, I got a flush of skin conditions but that started to subside. At the same time as this, I started going to my GP when ailments presented. I was on Citalopram for six months.

 

I tried two therapists. The first was too stuffy and focused on "anger management" for my liking. The next one was much more to my liking and we did hypnotherapy, some Jungian analysis and general talk therapy. I also got interested in her artwork (she's quite an established painter) which was nice as it made it possible to put the person I was talking with into context. I joined a gym and used the jacuzzi and sauna frequently.

 

I've had three operations under general anaesthetic - a cheilectomy, circumcision and plastic surgery to fix the cuts on my left wrist.

 

A very good friend from the old days kept on boosting me by telephone. Frequent calls with kind words, positive words, jokes, encouragement. Love in other words.

 

I was asking professionals for help and trying new things, avoiding the old ways I had used to deal with stress. I drink about 4 pints of beer a week (at the weekend, with friends) compared to in the region of 60 pints a week in the past. I spend a lot less money than I used to, and I don't binge on food / spending / booze / drugs / porn / Internet arguments. I see others doing that and I think "there's a better way - I hope you find it" and feel a little shocked by it, and relieved to have moved on from that.

 

I got a pair of goldfish, got into gardening, have done a course in Swedish massage and am now qualified, insured and ready to start a new career as a massage therapist. I started hot yoga with a Groupon voucher and love it. Perfect workout for me as it's non-impact and as I have osteoarthritis in a big toe, and a weak knee on the same leg, I prefer exercise that doesn't stress that.

 

I started a beginner's rowing course a few weeks ago and am really enjoying it. Being out on the river and with a team of equally new to rowing people is fun. I guess that in the winter I may go back to octopush (tried that last winter) or racquetball (dependent on condition of foot) to mainain exercise and exposure to light.

 

I've experimented with changing my diet. Initially, after leaving hospital, I was still tense and thought that I *needed* a strict regime, dietary, exercise and financial. That was unsustainable. I'd go through a binge/purge cycle. As I processed more emotional issues and found more alternative ways to get high (exercise, hobbies, study) I found my urges to binge/purge have reduced a lot. I now eat healthily. I recommend the cookbook "Less Meat More Veg" as a happy medium between fast food and hairshirt veganism.

 

I've read a lot of self-help books and information. My critical analysis skills have improved and I quickly dismiss things I find inauthentic or just plain annoying (authors referencing their other titles instead of writing the content into the book I have bought, for example) whilst still reading on and considering the merits of the rest of the content. Just like life, books are imperfect, and recognising what appeals and what doesn't feels good to me. I am more measured.

 

I confronted my parents and family with the grievances I had from the past and the problems I had with my (the current) relationship with them. I no longer get calls from them solely asking to "borrow" money. When we talk, it's pleasant. I don't dread hearing from. I look forward to it.

 

I pay more attention to my feelings that occur in the present, and I honour them more. I feel less obliged to do things beyond my means. I know saying "no" is the best option sometimes and I have done so and reaped the rewards. The most significant being, perhaps, to say "no more" to the monthly just-before-PMT-therefore-I-am-horny impulsive calls from my ex and thus changed my phone number, and block her on Facebook (and remove personal info from Facebook such as email address, relationship status etc). I did that because it makes me happier.

 

I've not covered everything, and I have deviated from the way the body is intrinsically linked to our emotional state, but I've enjoyed writing this annual review. If any of it inspires you, great. The best advice I have had has been "It's okay to ask for help" and "Do things that make you happy and don't do things that make you unhappy."

Edited April 19, 2011 by betterdeal

[starryeyed12]

Wow. Your post makes me feel sad, humbled, and inspired. Two thoughts come to mind for me--

Your body is a temple, treat it as such.

Life is precious.

[TaraMaiden]

A lot of the parasympathetic and endocrine systems reside in the abdomen. The adrenal glands, responsible for fight or flight hormones as well as feel good hormones, for example. Also, the thymus glands are situated in front of the heart. These are where the lymphatic system drains into.

 

When we feel threatened or excited, we release adrenal and cortisol from the adrenal glands, amongst other things. The feeling of butterflies in your stomach can actually be the sensation of the adrenal glands emptying.

 

(. . .)

 

I've not covered everything, and I have deviated from the way the body is intrinsically linked to our emotional state, but I've enjoyed writing this annual review. If any of it inspires you, great. The best advice I have had has been "It's okay to ask for help" and "Do things that make you happy and don't do things that make you unhappy."

 

Stunning post.

 

By the way, you're Buddhist, you do know that, don't you?

 

(That was a joke.....)

 

seriously - your philosophy is admirable, and I'm glad I stuck with the thread.

 

[WellLetsSee]

A little confused, initially, but clearer now.

 

I was assuming an exchange of ideas, such as your ideas apropos NVP. I had read you as saying you wanted to be part of your father's recovery; to help him. I thought that you might be looking for stability and authenticity for yourself, rather than changes in him, per se. If saying what I think made you uncomfortable, then I apologise.

 

Reading my post about NVC again - I was like: "Gee of course you confused him. That was a pretty confusing post." Hmmm, I am pretty helpless right now how to clear up the misunderstanding. I really do not like written conversation when it comes to such misunderstandings.

 

Also I dont wanna go on about this too much in this public thread (I wish I was established by now). There really is no need to apologise to me - in my point of view what you did was simply based on your desire to exchange ideas and maybe give me an inspiration about what I can do to heal my relation with my parents, no?

 

What made me feel uncomfortable was not at all the content of what you said, but the fact that it was unsolicited advice. I mean, you did not know that I do not like unsolicited advice and I think I just wanted to let you know that I do not like it for future occasions. That is all.

 

And dont get me wrong: I am very interested to hear about your experiences and what matters to you. It is not like I do not want to listen to you. And in situations where I feel the need for advice and support I figure you actually might be one of the persons here on that forum whose suggestions would be valuable to me.

 

Damn, I hope I could make myself understood this time. I fear I have messed it up again...

 

I like my parents to be happy, but I don't presume to be able to achieve that for them. I spent a long time helping them, and in the past year, choose to change the way I interact with them. I made my complaints to them and feel better for it. Our relationship has changed as a consequence, but the breakthrough for me was being able to complain. My mother said at one point "you want everything to be perfect", which is not true. I wanted to be able to react, and speak my mind, first and foremost.

 

Ah ok, I hear that you had a strong desire to speak up your mind / your reality in front of your parents? To tell them how you had experienced things in the past - maybe have your reality acknowledged by your parents? And when you finally managed to do that you felt relieved and at peace with yourself? Something like that?

 

And you also experienced a change in the relation with your parents - maybe for the first time like "being on equal terms"? You know, like that for the first time - you and your parents really meet each other as human beings on eye level? Before you had kept the pain hidden inside and this pain had somehow stood between you and now as it is out in the open, maybe you can also accept your parents more for who they are and could let go of the desire to change them? Is it something like this or is it something else? ... curious.

Edited April 19, 2011 by WellLetsSee

[betterdeal]

starryeyed12 thanks!

 

TaraMaiden thank you too! I like a lot of Buddha's ideas, certainly.

 

WellLetsSee I intended to give you an interpretation of your wish to help your father, i.e. that I think this may have stemmed from a desire to have a stable and authentic relationship with him. I didn't intend to advise you as to how to achieve that. A stable and authentic relationship can be one of no contact or lots of contact or anything in between.

 

Regards my parents and me, you're right about what I wanted to do in registering my complaints. I didn't want to hold that sorrow and guilt inside, nor did I want to continue supporting them financially and emotionally. We don't talk as much as before, but when we do, it's enjoyable. I didn't have a desire to change them so much as they had a need for support through some difficult times, but this need never ended. It became embedded, and I feel I was fulfilling some of their roles in their relationship. I had a need to change me.

 

I love my parents and admire them for what they've achieved and the love and affection they have given us. I am very affectionate because of them. I know their past was harder than mine, because they made the effort to leave behind the bad that was inflicted on them. I wanted to change our relationship, the one between me and them. If they ask for advice on how to improve their lives, I may make suggestions and share what I know, but I won't be the third person in a triangle.

[WellLetsSee]

It is touching to hear how you admire your parents. I feel always humbled to witness respect and appreciation shared between children and parents. And Im even more touched that you had the courage to stand up for your own needs, despite the fact that your parents wished you to take care of theirs.

Edited April 19, 2011 by WellLetsSee

[Downtown]

BetterDeal, I keep running into your posts on the threads I participate in -- those where a "Non" (typically, a codependent NonBPDer like me) is struggling to recover from a toxic relationship with a BPDer (i.e., person with strong BPD traits, either above or below the diagnostic level). After having read over a hundred of your posts, I just want to report that your insights into that disorder -- and what is required to extricate oneself from such a toxic relationship -- are articulate, compassionate, and downright amazing. Your posts are a treasure trove of valuable information.

 

That is nowhere more apparent than in the thread started by Zach (aka, WhatDoIDo), where your posts shine the brightest, IMO. Zach had barely gotten that long thread out the gates (April 5) before (on April 6) you nailed the BPD nature of the behavior he was describing. I was tickled to see, when another member jumped all over you for "using labels," you handled the incident with aplomb and then stayed the course with helping Zach. Because I was so blown away by what I saw you do in that thread, I took a look at the threads you started, ending up here in this thread -- where I read about the huge recovery you accomplished over the past year.

 

In case you are unaware of it, I want to say that the level of self awareness you have achieved is extraordinarily rare for anyone -- much less for someone struggling with issues you have had to overcome -- especially the difficulty you had for more than 30 years in being so uncomfortable with the strong mixed feelings that we all have to learn to live with. If I understand you correctly, you had to learn to overcome black-white thinking both on the outside (with respect to your ex's thinking) and inside (with respect to your difficulty tolerating your love/hate feelings toward your parents and others. Nobody knows better than you that we all are walking, talking bundles of mixed feelings toward everything and everyone. I applaud your remarkable accomplishment, BD.

[betterdeal]

I'm touched by that, Downtown. Thank you!

[Downtown]

it's 7 months and I am just ready to let go already. If you have any insight for me (as you're very insightful), I'd love to hear it.

Coexist, I can't speak for BD, to whom you directed the request. But what helped me the most in healing from a 15 year toxic relationship with my BPDer exW was to first understand the nature of BPD traits. Once I understood she was incapable of trusting me, I realized it was impossible for me to help her because she did not believe anything coming out of my mouth. Moreover, I also learned that my continued presence in the marriage was harming her because the only way she would tolerate my presence was when I was doing the harmful enabling behavior (i.e., walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her tantrums).

 

In that regard, the single best article I've seen is "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD." It is available at http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles9.htm, where there are a dozen other good articles written by professionals. At that same site, you will find the largest, most active BPD site targeted to the nonBPD partners and family of BPDers. Take care.

[Downtown]

BetterDeal, I forgot to mention your delightful historical rendition of the way in which the concept of "the one" and "soul mate" crept into our culture, starting with the Greeks. This silliness really set us codependent caregivers up for a disastrous encounter with BPDers, who mirror us so perfectly during the six month honeymoon that both the BPDers and we "Non" partners are convinced we have met our "soul mates." Indeed, we are so convinced by that false illusion -- and by that silly idea of having met "the one" -- that most of us are willing to endure a lifetime of abuse, vainly trying to reestablish the conditions of the honeymoon. Thank goodness the BPDers grow resentful of our inability to make them happy -- and more fearful of abandonment as their good looks start to fade. Typically, they walk out on us after about 15 years, if not sooner. Otherwise, men like me would still be stuck in the toxic relationships.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Downtown