Abusive Relationships - does it take two?

[LittleTiger]

There are basically two views on abusive relationships. One says the abusive man is wholly to blame, the other says it's a relationship dynamic.

 

Personally, I used to go along with the relationship dynamic and the idea of the abused partner being co-dependant. These days, based on my own experience and on all the research I've done, I'm not so sure.

 

I now have an opinion that places the blame pretty squarely on the abusive man's shoulders but with the personality of the woman either helping him or hindering him in his endeavour to control her.

 

There are, I believe, women who are more likely to be abused than others based on levels of self-esteem, personality, financial situation etc but I think it's more of a sliding scale across the board than an absolute ie while all women may be potential victims, some are more easy to abuse than others.

 

When it comes to abusive men, however, it is an absolute. Men are either abusive or they aren't. There may still be a sliding scale from the least severe emotional/psychological abuse to the most dangerous violent abuse but there are many men who will never behave in any way that could be considered abusive, regardless of their partner's vulnerability.

 

The dynamic of the relationship is only important if the man is abusive in the first place. A particularly independent minded, emotionally intelligent, strong women with rock-solid self esteem who starts a relationship with an abusive man may be able to cope with his behaviour so that she doesn't feel abused (assuming he isn't a dangerous psychopath!). If she does begin to feel abused, she will either set and enforce strict boundaries on his behaviour at the first sign of abuse (if she can), or she will leave.

 

A woman with lower self esteem, less confidence, less independent in spirit etc will very likely find herself feeling abused by the same man far sooner and more severely than the first woman and she will be far less likely to be able to get herself out of the relationship. Not because the man's behaviour is any different, because abusive men are fairly consistent in their own patterns of bad behaviour, but because she is an easier victim.

 

The best book I have read on this subject is Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does He Do That', which gives the most accurate description of abusive men and abusive relationships as I have experienced them. His research is based on years of working closely with thousands of abusive men and his analysis of their thinking makes more sense to me than anything else I've read about abusive and controlling men. Unfortunately, abusive men don't like his book because he paints a not very flattering picture of them and 'abused' men don't like it because he states that abuse of men by women is very rare (not non-existent, but rare).

 

If an abusive man is abusing a woman and she retaliates, he will twist things around to say she's the one who is being abusive and, if he seeks help for his problem, he will probably say during his therapy that the abuse worked both ways and 'what's a man to do when his wife treats him so badly?'

 

This is why it's impossible for an outsider, who doesn't know both people in the relationship personally, to determine exactly what is going on. Most abusers are charming, caring and loving partners at times, and certainly at the beginning of a relationship. They continue to be that person when out in public and reserve their growing abuse for their partner in private. What then happens, if the woman begins to accuse him of abuse, is that nobody believes her and they side with him. The abuse has thrown the woman psychologically off balance and everyone starts to think it is her who is the abuser because she clearly 'has problems' and that's what he tells them.

 

So although abusive relationships can be cyclical in terms of everything being rosy one minute and all hell breaking loose the next, it is actually very much one-sided in terms of who's to blame. The abuser obviously wants outsiders to think it's a two way street and any women who is being, or has been abused, will get sucked in by his version of events. She will then start to take at least some of the blame for the whole sorry mess and will agree, when asked, that 'it takes two'.

 

Abusive relationships almost always start with an abusive man. Yes, within that relationship is a woman who isn't able to stand up to him - but if he wasn't abusive in the first place, then she wouldn't have to!

[dreamingoftigers]

There are basically two views on abusive relationships. One says the abusive man is wholly to blame, the other says it's a relationship dynamic.

 

Personally, I used to go along with the relationship dynamic and the idea of the abused partner being co-dependant. These days, based on my own experience and on all the research I've done, I'm not so sure.

 

I now have an opinion that places the blame pretty squarely on the abusive man's shoulders but with the personality of the woman either helping him or hindering him in his endeavour to control her.

 

There are, I believe, women who are more likely to be abused than others based on levels of self-esteem, personality, financial situation etc but I think it's more of a sliding scale across the board than an absolute ie while all women may be potential victims, some are more easy to abuse than others.

 

When it comes to abusive men, however, it is an absolute. Men are either abusive or they aren't. There may still be a sliding scale from the least severe emotional/psychological abuse to the most dangerous violent abuse but there are many men who will never behave in any way that could be considered abusive, regardless of their partner's vulnerability.

 

The dynamic of the relationship is only important if the man is abusive in the first place. A particularly independent minded, emotionally intelligent, strong women with rock-solid self esteem who starts a relationship with an abusive man may be able to cope with his behaviour so that she doesn't feel abused (assuming he isn't a dangerous psychopath!). If she does begin to feel abused, she will either set and enforce strict boundaries on his behaviour at the first sign of abuse (if she can), or she will leave.

 

A woman with lower self esteem, less confidence, less independent in spirit etc will very likely find herself feeling abused by the same man far sooner and more severely than the first woman and she will be far less likely to be able to get herself out of the relationship. Not because the man's behaviour is any different, because abusive men are fairly consistent in their own patterns of bad behaviour, but because she is an easier victim.

 

The best book I have read on this subject is Lundy Bancroft's 'Why Does He Do That', which gives the most accurate description of abusive men and abusive relationships as I have experienced them. His research is based on years of working closely with thousands of abusive men and his analysis of their thinking makes more sense to me than anything else I've read about abusive and controlling men. Unfortunately, abusive men don't like his book because he paints a not very flattering picture of them and 'abused' men don't like it because he states that abuse of men by women is very rare (not non-existent, but rare).

 

If an abusive man is abusing a woman and she retaliates, he will twist things around to say she's the one who is being abusive and, if he seeks help for his problem, he will probably say during his therapy that the abuse worked both ways and 'what's a man to do when his wife treats him so badly?'

 

This is why it's impossible for an outsider, who doesn't know both people in the relationship personally, to determine exactly what is going on. Most abusers are charming, caring and loving partners at times, and certainly at the beginning of a relationship. They continue to be that person when out in public and reserve their growing abuse for their partner in private. What then happens, if the woman begins to accuse him of abuse, is that nobody believes her and they side with him. The abuse has thrown the woman psychologically off balance and everyone starts to think it is her who is the abuser because she clearly 'has problems' and that's what he tells them.

 

So although abusive relationships can be cyclical in terms of everything being rosy one minute and all hell breaking loose the next, it is actually very much one-sided in terms of who's to blame. The abuser obviously wants outsiders to think it's a two way street and any women who is being, or has been abused, will get sucked in by his version of events. She will then start to take at least some of the blame for the whole sorry mess and will agree, when asked, that 'it takes two'.

 

Abusive relationships almost always start with an abusive man. Yes, within that relationship is a woman who isn't able to stand up to him - but if he wasn't abusive in the first place, then she wouldn't have to!

 

I agree with most of what you are saying and highly agree with the bolded.

 

The only things that I might take issue with is the gender favorability. I think that women may not be as likely to abuse (would have to review stats) but the ways that they would choose to abuse are more verbal/emotional instead of physical/sexual.

 

But overall yes, if you have an abuser in a relationship if the non-abusive partner doesn't put up with it, the relationship either changes or ends.

 

I think that there are some misconceptions in regard to abuse. Many people who are abusers I think do not see it or they think "well I called her that when I was mad" and therefore think that it is being pushed too far.

 

Quite frankly in my relationship there has been quite the element of emotional and verbal abuse where I have only just started to become acquainted with it. I do believe that if I set my boundaries higher that the problem would actually cease (although my husband may need a few nights outside for it to click in). Not my fault if he chooses to go off again. (And yes he has access to personal funds, he chooses to sleep outside, last time he even took a bunch of money out of the joint chequing and bounced our rent.)

 

I think that being abused just messes with your head so much that you become so jumpy about what is going to happen next. Sometimes I get the shakes.

 

My husband tries the "two-way street" deal with me too. The only time that I recall it breaking down into abuse from my end was the last night I caught him cheating and I bit him. In the years leading up to that I don't think that I was abusive to him in any way. He says that my initial reaction to him cheating was abusive because I would it and sob and ask him a million questions about why it happened and it would make him feel bad. Ironically enough I have seen many BSs on here be far more demanding and less forgiving then myself, I don't consider the vast majority of them to be abusive. He would also explode in rage with any questioning, so really what is abusive?

 

I did in fact know what stimulated his explosiveness about 70% of the time but the actions in themselves (i.e. Can you help me with this? Hey this isn't fair, I deserve to know what is going on!) were not abusive just because he reacted that way. He considers it abusive and shaming for me to ask for transparency etc. I don't think that it is given our circumstance.

 

I actually think that cheating on someone is abusive because of the trauma it causes. I have no idea why people don't consider it abusive.

 

In conclusion, I think that a certain person can have abusive tendencies but the relationship dynamic allows or squelches the behaviour.

[betterdeal]

Massively sexist rant their, tiger.

 

My ex saw physical abuse as foreplay and wanted me to hit her. She wanted me to cum in her face. She didn't want me to kiss her. She was dating other men. She manipulated me into getting drugs for her.

 

She was crying her eyes out on the phone to her ex in front of me asking him if he cared for her and could she move in with him whilst we were in the pub with friends, the day after I had a call from her friend at 2am saying her landlord (her mother's former boyfriend who was her father's former best friend) had just come home drunk and kicked them both out of the house physically.

 

I had just moved all her stuff to my house, given her a key, and the spare room. She spread rumours about me. She is relentless in attacking me verbally and emotionally, still now, a year later, each time we have met since (and each time she did the calling, not me) after me having tried to kill myself and having spent 3 weeks in a mental health hospital. I've changed my phone number, and am moving town to get away from her.

 

She has another ex who is in a high security mental health hospital. And another in who did kill himself after two years with her and to whom I was constantly compared. She's a former heroin user, still a heavy drinker, has sold sex for money, had sex in a toilet with a random guy at the bar whilst on a date with another guy, gone on dates with her married colleagues husbands and been involuntarily hospitalised for mental health problems.

 

All our joint friends have sided with me, despite me being convinced at the time that I was the abuser and refusing to listen to anything bad they had to say about her.

 

So, frankly, f*ck you and you sexist rant against me because I am a man.

[carhill]

Yes, it takes two or there is no 'relationship'. Sometimes one is healthier than two, gender irrespective.

[betterdeal]

I'm very upset by this. I know LittleTiger has been trying to help a friend who was abused as a child and I gave her advice on that. I am assuming she's been reading up on abuse and, having found the plethora of woman-centric advice out there, has reached this conclusion.

 

Abuse of a child is clear-cut. A child has no defences, nowhere to turn, no knowledge of anything different, no choice.

 

Abuse within adult relationships is, however, nowhere near as clear cut and the position of abuser, victim and rescuer is often constantly swapped around and even held simultaneously by all the abusive relationships I have decent knowledge of. In fact, you could say that the abuser model is massively out of date in an era of equality, whereas the model of maladaptive behaviour and thinking works in all the difficult romantic relationships I have a decent knowledge of, and beyond into work relationships, friendships etc.

 

The implications of the only men are abusers - women are only victims idea is ridiculous: there's never an abusive lesbian relationship; both are the abuser and neither are the victim in an abusive gay relationship; a woman with a string of men reduced to mental wrecks in her history is the victim and they are all the abusers.

[LittleTiger]

I'm sorry if your ex abused you betterdeal - that's must have been terrible for you.

 

Most abusive relationships do involve men abusing women. I wasn't actually saying that it never happens the other way around. If that's how it came across, then I apologise.

 

Abusive men are manipulative - there is no argument about that. No doubt absusive women are too. My 'rant' as you call it, was not a rant and nor do I believe it was sexist. I was talking about men who abusive women. If that didn't happen in your relationship then it doesn't relate to you so I'm surprised you're offended.

 

It wasn't a rant against men or against you. I posted to help abused women understand how easily they can be manipulated by an abuser. That was my only motive. I realise it's an emotive topic and some people might disagree with me. If you have a different view of abusive men then please do share it.

 

There is, however, no need for you to be rude to me. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, but using fowl language directed at me specifically is uncalled for and extremely aggressive.

[dreamingoftigers]

Both my mother and father were abusive towards me but I think only Dad abused Mom (very rarely physically though).

[betterdeal]

Most abusive relationships do involve men abusing women. I wasn't actually saying that it never happens the other way around. If that's how it came across, then I apologise.

 

No they don't. Most involve two or more people doing things that make each other feel bad. Most people involved are abusers & victims at the same time.

 

Abusive men are manipulative - there is no argument about that. No doubt absusive women are too. My 'rant' as you call it, was not a rant and nor do I believe it was sexist.

 

Yes it was. You talk about women victims and men abusers. Why the distinction based on genitalia? Are we abused men not important? Do we not exist? Are we not man enough? Not worthy of your interest?

 

I was talking about men who abusive women. If that didn't happen in your relationship then it doesn't relate to you so I'm surprised you're offended.

 

No you weren't. You're backtracking. You started saying you think abuse is a one way street and then go on to talk about abusive men and victimised women. That in itself is abusive as you are implying that this one way street is abuse being made by men against women. It's not. It goes both ways in almost all cases.

 

It wasn't a rant against men or against you.

 

Yes it was. Saying it wasn't repeatedly doesn't make you right.

 

I posted to help abused women understand how easily they can be manipulated by an abuser.

 

Why just abused women? Oh right, men just need to "grow a pair" and "suck it up", but then again, we're the abusers so we don't need you help, do we?

 

That was my only motive.

 

Yet you post it as a general argument that invalidates my personal, harrowing experience.

 

I realise it's an emotive topic and some people might disagree with me. If you have a different view of abusive men then please do share it.

 

I have, several times, on several threads where you've posted similar and you just disappear and never address the arguments.

 

There is, however, no need for you to be rude to me. If you don't like my opinion that's fine, but using fowl language directed at me specifically is uncalled for and extremely aggressive.

 

Implying I am an abuser and didn't suffer abuse because I have testicles is extremely offensive so again, f*ck you. I'm tired of your insinuations and accusations by implication. You may not like my direct abuse back at you, but then maybe you'll think about your indirect abuse at me simply because I am not your gender.

[LittleTiger]

I'm very upset by this. I know LittleTiger has been trying to help a friend who was abused as a child and I gave her advice on that. I am assuming she's been reading up on abuse and, having found the plethora of woman-centric advice out there, has reached this conclusion.

 

Abuse of a child is clear-cut. A child has no defences, nowhere to turn, no knowledge of anything different, no choice.

 

Abuse within adult relationships is, however, nowhere near as clear cut and the position of abuser, victim and rescuer is often constantly swapped around and even held simultaneously by all the abusive relationships I have decent knowledge of. In fact, you could say that the abuser model is massively out of date in an era of equality, whereas the model of maladaptive behaviour and thinking works in all the difficult romantic relationships I have a decent knowledge of, and beyond into work relationships, friendships etc.

 

The implications of the only men are abusers - women are only victims idea is ridiculous: there's never an abusive lesbian relationship; both are the abuser and neither are the victim in an abusive gay relationship; a woman with a string of men reduced to mental wrecks in her history is the victim and they are all the abusers.

 

I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. I was abused as a child myself and have experienced abuse in an adult relationship and I personally know a man who was abused by his partner.

 

My opinion comes from many areas, including personal experience.

 

There clearly are situations where the woman is the abuser but it happens much, much less often than the other way around. There is, of course, also abuse in lesbian and gay relationships. Abuse can occur in any relationship where there is an imbalance of power.

 

What I was saying is that where the man is the abuser, it is very easy for him to convince others that it's the woman's fault. I'm certainly not saying that you did such a thing - I don't even know you - to be honest I didn't even know you were a man.

 

Most people who come here to talk about being abused are women and they don't know where to go for help. If you were abused yourself then you know how confusing it can be for someone who has nowhere to turn.

 

Whether the abuser is male or female, whether it's a straight relationship or a gay/lesbian one it doesn't take two people to make that relationship abusive. It takes one - the abuser.

[betterdeal]

I think you've got me mixed up with someone else. I was abused as a child myself and have experienced abuse in an adult relationship and I personally know a man who was abused by his partner.

 

I probably have in that case.

 

There clearly are situations where the woman is the abuser but it happens much, much less often than the other way around.

 

No it doesn't. Men don't talk about it mostly because of your attitude which is widespread and perfidious. Domestic violence against men is dismissed by the police and charities set up for domestic abuse victims.

 

There is, of course, also abuse in lesbian and gay relationships. Abuse can occur in any relationship where there is an imbalance of power.

 

The whole abuse model has been expanded and distorted to fit so many exceptions that it's falling apart at the seems. If a man says nothing, he's holding back; if a woman says nothing, she's scared. Does it not occur to you that men may also be scared and not know what to do?

 

What I was saying is that where the man is the abuser, it is very easy for him to convince others that it's the woman's fault.

 

But when the abuser is a women, everyone knows about it?

 

I'm certainly not saying that you did such a thing - I don't even know you - to be honest I didn't even know you were a man.

 

I certainly lied, made promises I didn't keep, sat quietly in the corner, drank heavily, took class A drugs, overspent my money, said nasty things, responded in kind.

 

Most people who come here to talk about being abused are women and they don't know where to go for help. If you were abused yourself then you know how confusing it can be for someone who has nowhere to turn.

 

And your opening statement would have scared me off from getting advice from this forum.

 

Whether the abuser is male or female, whether it's a straight relationship or a gay/lesbian one it doesn't take two people to make that relationship abusive. It takes one - the abuser.

 

You have a hopelessly simplistic view of relationships. Despite the evidence of dreaminoftigers and myself you still haven't changed your position.

[LittleTiger]

Implying I am an abuser and didn't suffer abuse because I have testicles is extremely offensive so again, f*ck you. I'm tired of your insinuations and accusations by implication. You may not like my direct abuse back at you, but then maybe you'll think about your indirect abuse at me simply because I am not your gender.

 

I didn't imply any such thing and I don't think you're abusing me.

 

Hurling insults or directing foul language at someone on an internet message board is not abuse although it is rather rude.

 

As I already said, I had no idea you were male and my comments were not directed at you or at men in general. They were about abusive men only.

 

If you have misunderstood my post, despite my attempt to explain, there's not much I can do about that.

[LittleTiger]

Both my mother and father were abusive towards me but I think only Dad abused Mom (very rarely physically though).

 

Same here. Although I doubt my Dad ever hit my Mum, he was the one with the power and he was scary with it. I have a feeling he reserved the physical punishment for just us kids.

 

I have to say he's a completely different man now he's old.

[betterdeal]

I didn't imply any such thing and I don't think you're abusing me.

 

Yes you did and yes I did. Verbal abuse is, well, abuse. If I said, when to my lover, "let's ****" that wouldn't be abusive, despite it being a word of Saxon origin that the Norman's deemed too common for them, thus being "rude". If I tell you to f*ck off for being a c*nt then I am using these words to offend you, hence it is abuse.

 

As I already said, I had no idea you were male and my comments were not directed at you or at men in general. They were about abusive men only.

 

If you have misunderstood my post, despite my attempt to explain, there's not much I can do about that.

 

Okay, so when you opened with...

 

There are basically two views on abusive relationships.

 

It appeared to be you were talking about all abusive relationships. Can you see how that might be an interpretation of that sentence?

 

You then talk exclusively about abusive men being intrinsically different from victim women. Can you see how that, following your opening sentence, implies that men are abusers and women are victims and that we are very specifically different from one another?

 

If an alien were to read your first post, what would they think? Oh, here's a piece of information about abusive relationships. Oh, they talk about male abusers and female victims. If this is true, abusive relationships consist of a man abusing a woman.

 

As you say, it's a highly emotive issue. Approaching it in, what you appear to be saying, was as slipshod a way as you have, you're bound to offend people who don't fit in with your model.

 

It does real harm this model of yours. It keeps men silent about their problems. It makes other men join the gay scene when they're not actually truly gay. It leaves women in a dead end. It fails to address the poor choices and self-harming reactions and thoughts that millions of people irrespective of gender live with.

 

You keep saying that abuse is a one way street in the majority of cases. I say that it's two way in all that I know of, and the model in itself is a regressive, backward looking, blame game that makes everyone the bad guy and the good guy and the interloper and the rescuer all at the same time. It's of no use in most cases.

[betterdeal]

Both my mother and father were abusive towards me but I think only Dad abused Mom (very rarely physically though).

 

Both my parents beat me on occasion. My mother beat my father on two occasions and my father never beat my mother. My father had an affair when my mother was pregnant with my sister (first occasion) and gambled us into massive debt and lost his job as a result (second occasion) and tried to kill himself when I was a teenager. My mother relied on me to be the male authority figure in the house from then on. Both parents were raped as children. None of me and my siblings were sexually abused. So my parents made a massive improvement for the next generation out of love and without any support.

 

But who to blame for the abuse I experienced? Everyone. Now how to improve life for all involved is a more interesting question.

[LittleTiger]

so really what is abusive?

 

This is a really good question and it would be so helpful if someone was able to define it.

 

It has taken me a very, very long time and some experiences that I would rather have done without, to understand what abuse actually is - to me anyway.

 

In my experience it's about power and control. The times that I have experienced abuse and felt abused have been when I was the 'underdog'.

 

If someone is being manipulated, mind f*cked or physically assaulted in order to keep them under control, then they're being abused.

 

If they retaliate by shouting or hitting back, that isn't abuse - that's self-defence. It's maybe not the best way of dealing with the situation but it does make sense. Being assertive makes even more sense but few people know how to be assertive without becoming aggressive. Maybe schools should start offering assertiveness training.

 

This is why I don't believe it takes two to make an abusive relationship. Anyone who has suffered at the hands of an emotional/psychological abuser is well aware of how it feels and how hard it can be to explain why it feels so bad. The only way that the other party is involved in the abuse is by allowing it to continue.

[betterdeal]

They can do it by ignoring you, for example.

[betterdeal]

They first cause you harm, then deny it, then dismiss how harmful it is, then ignore you, but in such a way as to make it obvious that they are ignoring you.

 

It's a coping mechanism. They know they've been abusive, either by intention or by neglect, but they want to whitewash over it. In fact, they often feel they're being abused.

 

You see how this abuse model works?

[betterdeal]

One way to counter such unhealthy, maladaptive behaviour is to point it out and how it makes you feel. Then the other person can reflect on the affect she or he has on others.

[betterdeal]

But then, at the end of the day, you can call it quits, leave them to their delusions and hope they don't do it to someone else in the future.

[LittleTiger]

Yes you did and yes I did. Verbal abuse is, well, abuse. If I said, when to my lover, "let's ****" that wouldn't be abusive, despite it being a word of Saxon origin that the Norman's deemed too common for them, thus being "rude". If I tell you to f*ck off for being a c*nt then I am using these words to offend you, hence it is abuse.

 

No I didn't imply anything and no, you haven't abused me. I don't feel either offended or abused by your words so it's not abuse.

 

You are obviously upset by what I posted and you are retaliating. Fair enough. I don't think it's necessary to use foul language to do that and it's certainly not how I would respond, but each to their own. I didn't intentionally upset you and I have apologised, there's really nothing more I can do.

 

You obviously disagree with what I'm saying and, again, you have every right to disagree. This is just my personal understanding and belief about abusive relationships - I certainly didn't intend to present it as a 'model'. It's an opinion nothing more.

[zakfar]

LittleTiger, you indeed need to research on the topic of 'Females over Males abuse' as your knowledge is close to none. You don't see much across the media, and you think in Domestic Violence always occurs by males over females. The harsh reality is that, there are many males being abused in the society by their female partners. They themselves are not interested to accept this reality, then how can they seek some support. They feel humiliated, and want to live in the hole. This situation is far more dangerous then you can imagine.

 

As I said earlier, abuse is abuse, no matter which gender is the aggressor and which gender is the victim. We should come out of this 'Genderism', forget about 'Feminism' and 'Masculism'. We should simply help the victims and remove the social crimes as much as we can do.

[LittleTiger]

LittleTiger, you indeed need to research on the topic of 'Females over Males abuse' as your knowledge is close to none. You don't see much across the media, and you think in Domestic Violence always occurs by males over females. The harsh reality is that, there are many males being abused in the society by their female partners. They themselves are not interested to accept this reality, then how can they seek some support. They feel humiliated, and want to live in the hole. This situation is far more dangerous then you can imagine.

 

As I said earlier, abuse is abuse, no matter which gender is the aggressor and which gender is the victim. We should come out of this 'Genderism', forget about 'Feminism' and 'Masculism'. We should simply help the victims and remove the social crimes as much as we can do.

 

If I have offended anyone with my post then I apologise. I admit to knowing very little about women abusing men although I do know a man who was abused by his ex-partner, so I know that it happens and I did not intend to imply that it didn't.

 

Clearly, my post was badly worded but I can't go back and change it so it will have to stand as it is.

 

I do believe that everything I said about men abusing women is true. If it is also true for women abusing men then I am very sorry for those men who are experiencing it. I'm sure there are a lot of women in the world who can be just as frightening as a man, especially with a weapon in their hand.

 

The point of my post was not about who abuses who, it was about whether both people are to blame for the abuse. I am sure there are many cases where the dynamics in a relationship gets very nasty on both sides but that isn't necessarily abuse. Some people fight and argue and call each other names as a normal part of a 'happy' relationship - I don't believe that's abuse.

 

In my experience, 'abuse' is about power and control so one person must necessarily be the perpetrator.

Edited April 10, 2011 by LittleTiger

[PelicanPete]

I don't think we can label and simplify abusive relationships. Media and history give the impression that men are/were the abusers holding the power and control in the relationship, but times are changing and I feel at least in our society it is becoming less about gender dominance and dog eat dog, and more about gender equality. Women weren't treated as equals through most of human history, which automatically made men more powerful, but now depending on where you go a women have just as many rights and restrictions as men do.

 

So in todays society, I don't think it has much to do with gender. Women can be just as heartless and nasty as men, the only difference is because of gender roles men are usually even more humiliated by it then women and try to keep it to themselves.

 

So what I think at least is it entirely depends on the people in the relationship. There may be one dominant presence with all the power and control, or there could be a struggle for it because maybe both parties are "abusers" in one way or another. So maybe in some relationships it does take two.

[carhill]

Typical man; typical wedding picture; not so typical ending, where the man was immersed in various acids reportedly while alive and 'cooked' in them, by his wife (and a male accomplice), the nice lady in the wedding picture. She was a member of our local business community, a research chemical scientist who ran her own chemical business. He was an administrator at a local hospital. She made about twice his income and they lived very comfortably. Friends described him as Mr. Mom, who tended to the kids, and his wife as the 'assertive' one who worked the long hours. 21 years of marriage ended in a blue plastic barrel.

 

The genders could easily have been reversed. But they weren't. One anecdote, with some of the players known to me. There are plenty more. Did it take two for there to be abuse in their relationship? You betcha. Both people played their roles. Both had choices and made choices. It ended horrifically but could have ended (or not) a million other ways.

[LittleTiger]

So in todays society, I don't think it has much to do with gender. Women can be just as heartless and nasty as men, the only difference is because of gender roles men are usually even more humiliated by it then women and try to keep it to themselves.

 

I agree that women can be just as heartless and nasty and I can understand men being more humiliated. Unfortunately, along with all the men who don't report abuse because of humiliation or fear there are also women who don't report abuse for the same reason so, whilst I admit to not knowing the statistics in either case, they are never going to give a clear picture of any gender bias - if there is one.

 

So what I think at least is it entirely depends on the people in the relationship. There may be one dominant presence with all the power and control, or there could be a struggle for it because maybe both parties are "abusers" in one way or another. So maybe in some relationships it does take two.

 

I see your point Pete but I don't understand how it can be termed 'abuse' if there is a power struggle. If one person expects to have power in a relationship and the other person refuses to allow them to take control how is that an abusive relationship. For abuse to take place there has to be a victim - doesn't there?

 

As I see it there are three possibilities.

 

1) The 'intended' victim may refuse to accept the abuse by being assertive so abuse doesn't occur and the two people may have a successful relationship.

 

2) The intended victim can't stand up to the abuser and gradually loses power and control as the abuser takes over - this is domestic abuse as I understand it.

 

3) Both people try to abuse each other and take control of the relationship but if neither succeeds it just turns into a nasty relationship. If neither of you has the power and neither of you is the victim, I don't see how that's abusive. Not pleasant, no, but not abusive.

 

Of course this goes back to the definition of what abuse is. I don't believe hurling insults at somebody and them hurling insults back is abuse - it's just a very bad relationship.