bentnotbroken Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 This sounds great in theory but I just don't think it's very realistic in my case, or maybe all OWs case with a separated MM. We have been in love for a year. You don't just walk out on someone you love because times get really tough. You at least have to give it a fight. I admit I don't know where the breaking point is & it can't go on like that forever but it isn't natural at all to just walk away from someone you love. I see that the end is on the horizon one way or the other & I don't want to leave before I find out what happens. I also have many fantastic memories of MM & me during the affair & even in these last few days when things are horribly crappy, we have a lot of special moments & love. So it's really hard to just put that up on some shelf & think 'maybe I'll pick this back up later if everything turns out well.' I just can't do that - for me this is make it or break it time. I will stay with him until I just can't do it anymore & then I will be done for good. I need this closure. He knows this. Not only do you walk...you run if you want to save yourself. His wife probably still loves him, but she is sick of his crap too. So he got kicked out. You are past make or break time...he is broke and all the kings horses, king's men nor you will put this trife back together again.
lovingwhatis Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 Hi P26, Ok, I was going to write you this thing in response to your recent posts, but then I went back and read you very first post on here, and I feel you have answered your own dilemma. pointblue26 "When I read the threads of 'unhappy' OWs I feel for you. If I could offer any advice it would be to just be aware & accepting of the situation you're in, and either be happy with things as they are, or get out. Mainly, if you want a total relationship, just you & MM, but he isn't able to do that, get out. Because there's no use staying unhappy in a situation that is less than you want. But realize that there may be good things about the relationship you will miss- so you have to decide what is worth staying for, or leaving over. And if you chose to stay in, realize your reasons for doing so, & accept total responsibility. MM & I have been through a lot of rough patches and ups & downs but things are better now that I've accepted it is what it is, I can't change anything except my own choice, and I'm choosing to stay for now because I am happy with him. I don't get mad at him for my own choice and I don't blame him because I knew how things were getting into this." I remember very well reading your initial post, and agreeing with your stance that ultimately you can only be responsible for your own decisions and accept what is, because the surest way to insanity is to argue with reality... But understandably you have lost touch with your own inner knowledge... The whirlwind of this drama has confused you. I also wanted to find another thread where people discussed love which I found interesting. One can say that love is subjective. You refer on many occasions about your desire to give it your all, to really love and not be bound by fear. I would advise you to really look into what your definition of love is, because I have a feeling an erroneous definition is keeping you in a situation in which you are clearly suffering, but you don't want to let go. Love is not putting another's needs above our own. It is hard to let go at times, and even when we really feel that we have it all on the line. But to me, love is actually letting go not in spite of your love, but because of it. Your MM can use the support of a therapist, not your support, which is clearly coming at a very dear price to you. I know letting go is tough, but I truly feel that honestly with oneself is more valuable in the long run. Deep down, you know what to do.
Jane Deaux Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 (edited) FWIW 26PB, I wouldn't be able to do much different than you are doing now. I would be right where you are, trying to wade through all the muck and get to that special place. It's still a very likely possibility. I can't reiterate enough, as someone contemplating ending a marriage, how confusing and hurtful it is. How much you don't want to hurt the BS anymore than you already have. Did I mention how confusing it is. I do not even KNOW the person I have become. NEVER in my life been so pitiful as I am right now. So frightened, confused and distant. And I'm trying to give H a chance!!! I can't say how I would treat MM were I in the same predicament, but you don't know how you will act till you are confronted with the same circumstances. It does sound as if he loves you and needs you. The relationship you had before as you knew it is over. A new relationship is being forged between you. And then, once the D is final and things are settled, that will be over too, and your life together will be an even newer relationship. Give him support. He needs it. You guys are in this together. It just still sounds like to me he is a mess over his kids. There is a reason so many of us say we stay for the kids. I know people who hate to hear that, but it's true. It hurts them and it hurts us more to see that hurt. You all have to work through this part. It's not going to let up till they come to agreements and he trickle truths the wife and she finally realizes he really is done.(<---not saying that's the right way to do it but it happens when you don't have the courage to just say it's over) He may be telling her things, starting out small, letting her think he may try to reconcile, but keeps pulling more and more away. She will realize that it he really is done the more he pulls away without him actually having to say, "I don't want you, I don't love you, I love her and It's her I'll be with". Then she will file for divorce. Hard enough to say without worrying about your kids hating you. My mm told me once, "I can't f up. If I do, I may not be able to raise my boys, or even worse, they will hate me". That was his biggest concern. Losing his boys somehow. What you can do to be proactive and still supportive is show him that it is hurting everyone more to have come this far and not just tell the truth to her. He doesn't have to rub it in her face. But he certainly can tell her it's just over. That he doesn't see that they can get past this and they have to do whats best for each of them and try to do the best by the children. And keeping the kids in limbo when he KNOWS that in his heart he won't be going back, is hurting the kids as well. He needs to own up to the fact that at least he isn't going back. I know he considers it, but I bet he gets sick feeling when he thinks of trying to fake a marriage again. I just think that he is going to realize sooner or later he cannot possibly live like that. In turmoil, recoiling when she touches him, thinking of someone else all day, every day, not having a connection to sustain you once the kids are gone. It's miserable thoughts I assure you. Even when you consider it for the kids, its nauseating. Edited April 11, 2011 by Jane Deaux typos
Author 26pointblue Posted April 11, 2011 Author Posted April 11, 2011 Hi P26, Ok, I was going to write you this thing in response to your recent posts, but then I went back and read you very first post on here, and I feel you have answered your own dilemma. pointblue26 "When I read the threads of 'unhappy' OWs I feel for you. If I could offer any advice it would be to just be aware & accepting of the situation you're in, and either be happy with things as they are, or get out. Mainly, if you want a total relationship, just you & MM, but he isn't able to do that, get out. Because there's no use staying unhappy in a situation that is less than you want. But realize that there may be good things about the relationship you will miss- so you have to decide what is worth staying for, or leaving over. And if you chose to stay in, realize your reasons for doing so, & accept total responsibility. MM & I have been through a lot of rough patches and ups & downs but things are better now that I've accepted it is what it is, I can't change anything except my own choice, and I'm choosing to stay for now because I am happy with him. I don't get mad at him for my own choice and I don't blame him because I knew how things were getting into this." I remember very well reading your initial post, and agreeing with your stance that ultimately you can only be responsible for your own decisions and accept what is, because the surest way to insanity is to argue with reality... But understandably you have lost touch with your own inner knowledge... The whirlwind of this drama has confused you. I also wanted to find another thread where people discussed love which I found interesting. One can say that love is subjective. You refer on many occasions about your desire to give it your all, to really love and not be bound by fear. I would advise you to really look into what your definition of love is, because I have a feeling an erroneous definition is keeping you in a situation in which you are clearly suffering, but you don't want to let go. Love is not putting another's needs above our own. It is hard to let go at times, and even when we really feel that we have it all on the line. But to me, love is actually letting go not in spite of your love, but because of it. Your MM can use the support of a therapist, not your support, which is clearly coming at a very dear price to you. I know letting go is tough, but I truly feel that honestly with oneself is more valuable in the long run. Deep down, you know what to do. Your post was very touching, LovingWhatIs. Thank you for taking the tie to write it. I was 'happy' being his OW because I knew with absolute certainty that it was only going to be for a short period of time, & that it was going to be the best time we had ever had & may ever have, unless he actually goes through all of this work to get divorced & heal & we can actually be a real couple. I accepted the situation because I knew the alternatives - being alone without him, which was crappy, or having him be separated & confused, which was also crappy. Now here we are where he is separated & confused again but it is not of his own choosing, it is because his wife got fed up. I do feel he is more sure about getting divorced now - he realizes he needs to do that but just isn't sure how to go about it after messing everything else up. My issue is that I don't know how long I can wait for him to figure it out. As WhichWayIsUp says, I definitely need to set a deadline for myself & stick to it. Because I am not good at accepting this situation for what it is - I am not happy with it at all & am more 'surviving' it to try to see what's on the other side. Last night we were having one of these talks where he gets my opinion on things & looks to me for advice [why? I have never been through this & they are not my family or kids - but I try to be there for him & tell him objectively [[which is obviously very hard]] what I think he should do based on knowing how he's feeling & what would be the right thing to do after all of these wrong things] - & I said something like, 'it all keeps coming back to what you yourself want to do. What do you in your heart really want to do?' Obviously I was asking in terms of, staying married or getting divorced [& I guess with getting divorced comes two options - being with me or being alone]- & I was thinking he would just say he was unsure or not really answer me [& as someone posted earlier, that would show me that what he really wanted was the marriage & the affair, same as always], but his answer was, 'get a three-bedroom house near my kids so they can feel free to see me as much as they want.' Then he added, "the strange thing is, that when I think about it, I feel a big sense of relief & even excitement.' I believe that he was being genuine. I do think he wants out of his marriage to his wife but he is so scared of change & of not being with his kids. I'm not even sure if he wants to be with me if he gets divorced. It seems like all the turmoil & bad feelings of guilt & doubt have taken us to a place where he questions if he even wants to be with me . . . & due to all of those feelings & his indecision I do often question the same thing about him! But I hang on because I believe these feelings are temporary & inconsistent & I know that underneath it all, I love him. And I also feel that underneath it all, he loves me. I see it in his eyes & hear it in his voice & almost always feel it in the way he treats me except for that time a couple days ago when he was being mean to me - & not that there is an excuse for that but I don't think it was intentional, I think he was just frustrated & all over the place. Sometimes I wonder if I was just an aid to help him out of his marriage - I've felt since the time I met him that he was unhappy in his marriage & just putting up a front or image [& this was later confirmed by him by his words & of course his actions] - but then I always feel that he genuinely loves me & would be sticking it out in his marriage for the sake of his kids if he didn't love me & want to be with me, even though it is hard for him to do what it takes to get there. It's all so incredibly confusing & I know I got off track from your initial post, sorry about that. I do hear what you're saying. I do agree that love is not putting someone's needs about your own & in general I feel that would be wrong. But right now things are so crazy that I almost feel it's one of those situations where I just have to hang in there even though my needs aren't being met - I don't want to compare it to an illness but it is something along the lines of, this is where he is at, & if I don't want to walk away from him I need to suck it up & take care of myself & not expect him to be able to do that because he can't right now, but I still want to be there for him. I do know this is an unhealthy & less than ideal way to be in love but I am doing it in the hopes that it eventually becomes a healthy & ideal love. Where we can both meet each other's needs. But you're right, it's not like that right now & I don't know how much longer I can hang in there but I am also not ready to let go. I know what you mean about loving myself & letting go & I know I will need to get there unless he does what it takes. I will need strength to get there but I think I will be able to do it, knowing that's the place I'm at then, whereas now, this is the place I'm at. I think I'm just rambling now so I'm going to go but I really appreciate your post - it has touched me deeply & I will continue to think about it as I try to decide what to do. Thank you.
Author 26pointblue Posted April 11, 2011 Author Posted April 11, 2011 FWIW 26PB, I wouldn't be able to do much different than you are doing now. I would be right where you are, trying to wade through all the muck and get to that special place. It's still a very likely possibility. I can't reiterate enough, as someone contemplating ending a marriage, how confusing and hurtful it is. How much you don't want to hurt the BS anymore than you already have. Did I mention how confusing it is. I do not even KNOW the person I have become. NEVER in my life been so pitiful as I am right now. So frightened, confused and distant. And I'm trying to give H a chance!!! I can't say how I would treat MM were I in the same predicament, but you don't know how you will act till you are confronted with the same circumstances. It does sound as if he loves you and needs you. The relationship you had before as you knew it is over. A new relationship is being forged between you. And then, once the D is final and things are settled, that will be over too, and your life together will be an even newer relationship. Give him support. He needs it. You guys are in this together. It just still sounds like to me he is a mess over his kids. There is a reason so many of us say we stay for the kids. I know people who hate to hear that, but it's true. It hurts them and it hurts us more to see that hurt. You all have to work through this part. It's not going to let up till they come to agreements and he trickle truths the wife and she finally realizes he really is done.(<---not saying that's the right way to do it but it happens when you don't have the courage to just say it's over) He may be telling her things, starting out small, letting her think he may try to reconcile, but keeps pulling more and more away. She will realize that it he really is done the more he pulls away without him actually having to say, "I don't want you, I don't love you, I love her and It's her I'll be with". Then she will file for divorce. Hard enough to say without worrying about your kids hating you. My mm told me once, "I can't f up. If I do, I may not be able to raise my boys, or even worse, they will hate me". That was his biggest concern. Losing his boys somehow. What you can do to be proactive and still supportive is show him that it is hurting everyone more to have come this far and not just tell the truth to her. He doesn't have to rub it in her face. But he certainly can tell her it's just over. That he doesn't see that they can get past this and they have to do whats best for each of them and try to do the best by the children. And keeping the kids in limbo when he KNOWS that in his heart he won't be going back, is hurting the kids as well. He needs to own up to the fact that at least he isn't going back. I know he considers it, but I bet he gets sick feeling when he thinks of trying to fake a marriage again. I just think that he is going to realize sooner or later he cannot possibly live like that. In turmoil, recoiling when she touches him, thinking of someone else all day, every day, not having a connection to sustain you once the kids are gone. It's miserable thoughts I assure you. Even when you consider it for the kids, its nauseating. Hi Jane, as usual I appreciate your input because I feel you are where my MM is & you say so many of the same things. I bolded the parts of your post that sound like exactly what he says. Especially the part about not wanting to hurt his kids. There was a time when I understood that he couldn't leave, or didn't know if he could leave even though he wanted to, because he didn't want to hurt them. I could completely understand that & I don't think he was just using it as an excuse to keep us an affair. But then I started thinking about how, as you mentioned later in your post, what he was [we were] doing was hurting them - they just didn't know it yet but they could find out - & so if I didn't want to help hurt them, I'd better get out of the picture. So I did that but then when the attraction pulled us back together again I was thinking along those same lines but instead it was, well, they are going to get hurt anyway if we keep it up, & we can't seem to not keep it up, so why not just do it sooner rather than later, rather than hurting them with more lies they can find out about down the road? And that is still where I am now - it's hard to be in this knowing he's upset with all the hurt we've caused, & also knowing we are still doing the things that caused all of that hurt! It seems to make no sense but as you say he needs time to muddle through it & he needs my support. Everything in your last paragraph, I have said to him already. I am no good at not pushing or pressuring or being patient but I have tried hard, by not reacting when he says things I don't like, by not putting any demands on him or time limits on him, but at the same time, we talk about everything, he talks to me about what's going on [i'm sure not all of it, but some of it] & he even asks me what I think, or sometimes I catch things that cause me to have questions or doubts, & I am not able to keep my feelings back from him, I just can't do it even in the name of not pressuring him, so at those different times when it is brought up I have told him that we can't go on like this forever or even for very long, that he is going to have to face the music & tell them we are together, or give me up. Or at least tell her he is done instead of leaving it all up to what she does. Because otherwise he is just being cruel to her & selfish when it comes to me & everything is going to keep getting worse instead of better. The bolded part in your second paragraph about him thinking he can't fake a life with her - yes. He has felt this way since the first time we broke up. I think he was thinking this way earlier, way before having met me, or else his heart could not have been open to this because he knew the risk & consequences, & it's like he was putting himself out there looking for an escape anyway, because he didn't like that life anymore. I don't think it's as extreme as with you & your husband - I don't think he recoils about anything about her necessarily, & I think he likes & appreciates what she does for him - in fact I think that during the time we were having an affair & he was living at home, he was kind of having the best of both worlds, where he could be at home with his kids & have his domestic needs met by her, & I think based on what he told me that things between them were quite civil & nice - they could still go on family vacations & stuff, still having sex until quite recently when she re-found out about us - yet there he was finding every chance to see me, talk to me, even during those otherwise nice family vacations - I think that having me in his life made it easier for him to be able to be there, because he wasn't totally there. He could come escape with me. But when he thinks of going back home & trying to make up for all this damage he's caused [with my help] & not having me in his life [because obviously that wouldn't work], I think he has those feelings of cringing & knowing for sure that he wouldn't be able to do it. In fact he has told me that. There was a time when we were completely not in contact for a couple months [before this most recent time] & I think he was trying, he was basically existing & surviving, but already old patterns started to emerge & he couldn't do it, & clearly he wasn't all on board or he never could have started back up with me. So I totally get what you mean by that & now I guess he is having to decide what he really & truly wants. I don't think it's his marriage, but I do think it's life as he knows it, & always being with his kids, but those things come as a package deal, so he is going to have to take all or none of it. [Well obviously he will still have his kids. But not in this same way they have all known it, at all.] And I really do think he wants to be with me. If I didn't think that then I couldn't do this - the time I was about ready to bail was when I was feeling that he didn't love me or respect me. If I feel that he loves me, & I know that I love him, then I am more apt to do what I've been doing, just muddling through it & hanging on for the bumpy ride. That was the longest run-on sentence ever. I am really all over the place today, just like MM I guess. I appreciate your posts Jane & it's so nice to hear from someone who understands. [i'm not saying the other posters don't understand - I know that they do - I'm just saying that you are in a very similar place & everything you say sounds like it could be my MM, but you're not him, you have a bit more perspective & can offer me better support right now then he can, so, thank you.]
Author 26pointblue Posted April 11, 2011 Author Posted April 11, 2011 FooledOnce, you wrote this a couple days ago but I missed it & was going back to re-read the posts, so I wanted to address it. I don't know if it matters at this juncture or not. Why in the world was he out with you and friends if he was hiding you? Was he hoping his wife would see or find out and then SHE would take the lead, like she allegedly has? I don't mean to be a downer, but people who don't OWN their actions or make their OWN path to me are not confident or sure of what they want. Good question. He hid me from his wife, his kids, & most of the people who knew them but he did not hide me from the rest of the world. His friends [that were 'his' friends as opposed to 'mutual' or 'family' friends] knew about me & we would hang out with them. We had just started doing that again this time around but the first time around almost all his friends knew about me & we would all hang out. Likewise some of my friends, & my sister, knew about him & would hang out with him, but some of my friends, & the rest of my family, didn't know about him. He mentioned that his wife said she thinks he was trying to be found out so that she would do the dirty work & kick him out. When he said it he said he thinks she may be right. I think she may be right too . . . it is totally in line with everything he has always done - spending gobs of time with me, being with me after she knew about me repeatedly, pretty much announcing that he was having the affair still, without actually announcing it - & still not doing anything on his own accord to actually end his marriage. And he has said many things about wanting her to be the one who does it because it'll be easier on her, him, me, everyone that way. I doubt it & I told her the easiest thing in the long run is just to give her the truth & get out of the marriage for good. [Or work on the marriage & let me know he's doing that & we stick to it for good].
Jane Deaux Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 I think very soon he is going to realize that he is going to be able to have a relationship with his kids that he is comfortable with. I had said to my husband in the past, even before MM, that if something ever happened to us we would live next to each other and see the kids everyday and they could have whatever they wanted. It was something to see you say that your MM said that what he wanted most was to have a house right down the road and have them have stay if they wanted. Which they will want. They, along with the stbxW and your MM will eventually get all this settled and in a routine. He just needs to make those steps. I really hope he can get that house! That's EXACTLY what I want. I want for me and H to be in a place where we are comfortable with each other and just wanting what is best for our boys. I want them to get to be able to see who they want when they want. 50/50 custody and whatever else we all work out. Unless work or something comes up where one or the other needs to be away, ect. and of course maintaing a semblance of normal life. It can be done! Plenty of parents do it all the time! I've thought it out too much obviously. When I say "recoils", that just recently started for me. As in, last two weeks. Maybe 3. I'm working on that. That was one of the things that prompted me to have the talk with him. And now that I've told him I'm not happy, it seems to have made it worse :/
Author 26pointblue Posted April 11, 2011 Author Posted April 11, 2011 I think very soon he is going to realize that he is going to be able to have a relationship with his kids that he is comfortable with. I had said to my husband in the past, even before MM, that if something ever happened to us we would live next to each other and see the kids everyday and they could have whatever they wanted. It was something to see you say that your MM said that what he wanted most was to have a house right down the road and have them have stay if they wanted. Which they will want. They, along with the stbxW and your MM will eventually get all this settled and in a routine. He just needs to make those steps. I really hope he can get that house! That's EXACTLY what I want. I want for me and H to be in a place where we are comfortable with each other and just wanting what is best for our boys. I want them to get to be able to see who they want when they want. 50/50 custody and whatever else we all work out. Unless work or something comes up where one or the other needs to be away, ect. and of course maintaing a semblance of normal life. It can be done! Plenty of parents do it all the time! I've thought it out too much obviously. When I say "recoils", that just recently started for me. As in, last two weeks. Maybe 3. I'm working on that. That was one of the things that prompted me to have the talk with him. And now that I've told him I'm not happy, it seems to have made it worse :/ Hi Jane. I understand how it would ideally work for you but what I keep thinking about is that both you & my MM are thinking of this from the position of the WS. The wildcard in all of this is what his wife chooses to do, or what your husband would choose to do. Imagine that you are my MM & your spouse caught you cheating again & again until he finally kicked you out of the house. Then you tell your spouse you are done with the marriage & are going to be with your OM. Do you really think your husband would feel as honky dory with those arrangements as you would? Do you think he would be okay living right by you & your OM & letting the kids go over there & hang out with you & OM. I imagine it wouldn't be so simple & that he would have his own wishes & put up a fight. And maybe your kids would be upset with you - as my MM's kids are upset with him - & not want to come see you or even tell you that they hate you or they don't want you to come home, ever, until they are in college [apparently this is what my MM's daughter has been saying to him.] So things might not work out as they want them to & he's very aware of that. What he wants & what he gets may be too very different things. On the other hand imagine being in your spouse's place or my MM's wife's place - you were hurt & betrayed & your spouse is leaving you for another woman . . . are you really going to be okay with it & just say, okay, let's all have joint custody & have the kids go over there right away with husband & OW as much as possible? I'm just trying to point out that he is afraid that due to his wife's anger & hurt his kids will be upset with him & he won't get to see them much . . . & I do think this is a valid fear. Not that it is undeserved but it's just that at this point I think he is realizing he has done so much damage that they might not want to see him or get along, & he is trying to do 'damage control' as he puts it to get them to see he wants to remain a big part of their life.
BB07 Posted April 11, 2011 Posted April 11, 2011 I think very soon he is going to realize that he is going to be able to have a relationship with his kids that he is comfortable with. I had said to my husband in the past, even before MM, that if something ever happened to us we would live next to each other and see the kids everyday and they could have whatever they wanted. It was something to see you say that your MM said that what he wanted most was to have a house right down the road and have them have stay if they wanted. Which they will want. They, along with the stbxW and your MM will eventually get all this settled and in a routine. He just needs to make those steps. I really hope he can get that house! That's EXACTLY what I want. I want for me and H to be in a place where we are comfortable with each other and just wanting what is best for our boys. I want them to get to be able to see who they want when they want. 50/50 custody and whatever else we all work out. Unless work or something comes up where one or the other needs to be away, ect. and of course maintaing a semblance of normal life. It can be done! Plenty of parents do it all the time! I've thought it out too much obviously. When I say "recoils", that just recently started for me. As in, last two weeks. Maybe 3. I'm working on that. That was one of the things that prompted me to have the talk with him. And now that I've told him I'm not happy, it seems to have made it worse :/ Jane......there isn't any way to say this without sounding harsh, but just understand that it's not personal, OK. What you've described in what you would want to happen if you and your husband divorce is a fantasy. Even if you take out the affair aspect out of it, it just does not happen like that except in the really rare unusual case. Under the best circumstances, things do not usually flow smoothly and most people find it impossible to live in such a situation as you describe. It's just not realistic. Throw in an affair and you've got a volatile situation and it's going to cause strife and people can deny it all they want but from the 1st moment that a person gets involved in an affair the children are hurt. The hurt can be small or it can be great but children are hurt when parents divorce or have affairs or have dysfunctional relationships........that is a cold hard fact.
bentnotbroken Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I think very soon he is going to realize that he is going to be able to have a relationship with his kids that he is comfortable with. I had said to my husband in the past, even before MM, that if something ever happened to us we would live next to each other and see the kids everyday and they could have whatever they wanted. It was something to see you say that your MM said that what he wanted most was to have a house right down the road and have them have stay if they wanted. Which they will want. They, along with the stbxW and your MM will eventually get all this settled and in a routine. He just needs to make those steps. I really hope he can get that house! That's EXACTLY what I want. I want for me and H to be in a place where we are comfortable with each other and just wanting what is best for our boys. I want them to get to be able to see who they want when they want. 50/50 custody and whatever else we all work out. Unless work or something comes up where one or the other needs to be away, ect. and of course maintaing a semblance of normal life. It can be done! Plenty of parents do it all the time! I've thought it out too much obviously. When I say "recoils", that just recently started for me. As in, last two weeks. Maybe 3. I'm working on that. That was one of the things that prompted me to have the talk with him. And now that I've told him I'm not happy, it seems to have made it worse :/ You are right it can be done. But to simply think that one will put their hurt feelings on a shelf to accommodate you is naive and dismissive. Mr. Messy wanted all those wonderful things. He and the OW planned raising their children together. They had plans, wrote them down(yes, I have a copy)even decided I needed to get a better paying job and looked for me one (along with a replacement man:lmao: so he wouldn't have to pay support). Guess what...there plans were just that......plans. No one can predict the feelings of another or what they should do for the sake of the children, as evidenced by you and your MM behavior. So it maybe to your detriment to expect the things above. Things were settled by me and the kids...Mr. Messy wasn't a part of the settlement, nor the OW.
fooled once Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 This sounds great in theory but I just don't think it's very realistic in my case, or maybe all OWs case with a separated MM. We have been in love for a year. You don't just walk out on someone you love because times get really tough. You at least have to give it a fight. I admit I don't know where the breaking point is & it can't go on like that forever but it isn't natural at all to just walk away from someone you love. I see that the end is on the horizon one way or the other & I don't want to leave before I find out what happens. I also have many fantastic memories of MM & me during the affair & even in these last few days when things are horribly crappy, we have a lot of special moments & love. So it's really hard to just put that up on some shelf & think 'maybe I'll pick this back up later if everything turns out well.' I just can't do that - for me this is make it or break it time. I will stay with him until I just can't do it anymore & then I will be done for good. I need this closure. He knows this. 26, read your own words - what I put in bold. Substitute the "year" you two have been having an affair with how long he and his WIFE have been married. Do you really think she is just going to step aside so you can move in? Think about it!!! I am married and I can tell you - there is no way in hell I would step aside, IF I WAS STILL IN LOVE WITH MY H and wanted to work on our marriage, because of a mistress. Come on. You are comparing your one year of sneaking around with their 20+ years of marriage/dating - they have a family together, a past together, a history - and a future planned. I know he has spun this whole story of how miserable he is ... yet he has never LEFT AND STAYED gone. Each time, he has run back to his wife. I don't think any of us are 'convincing' you to back off and let him make a freaking decision -- he has not made a single decision and has 2 women fighting over him and comforting him and fawning all over him. Even if he were to move out TODAY, he isn't separated. He is a married man who has made a small decision to move out. Read some threads in this forum - heck even your own story - about these guys moving out and then moving back in..unable to make the break. YOU are giving your all - and he isn't giving you squat. He is whining about how tough it is, how UNSURE he is, how complicated things are...blah blah blah. You sit and fret and are a mental mess. If he can't make a decision, that alone should be a HUGE RED FLAG to you -- that you do NOT mean to him as much as he means to you. You cannot convince me he loves you so much ... if he is unable/unwilling to make the break. He needs MAJOR therapy IF he leaves. Please do NOT be planning a future with him. He sounds so utterly weak and pathetic. Please please please -- step back and find YOURSELF again. You are so young .... you deserve so much better. You seem to be clinging to him in a very unhealthy way. You have wrapped your life around him...and he isn't even close to doing that with you Why in the world would you think you can "come out of the closet" to his family right now? You will be lucky IF you can do that in 6 months. You are right, they will not like you -- you will be the 'homewrecker' to his parents. His wife has been their daughter in law for over 20 years...she is family to them. You can't expect to replace her in their life. You can't expect to just show up and everyone open their arms to you. IF you two get together and when his family turns their back on him, he will blame you. He will blame you for pushing him. He will blame you for his family not speaking to him, not respecting him. He will blame you when his kids choose to not have anything to do with him. If you think his kids will "get over it", think again. Some kids never get over their parents infidelity. Some kids never respect their cheating parent ever again. Some never trust them again. Are you prepared for all this? If you back off - leave him alone just like WWIU says - and date once he is divorced and had some therapy - THEN IMHO, you will have a chance with his family. A chance - not necessarily a done deal with them accepting you. From what you have written - he is basically going to have to choose -- you or his kids and family. You do know you won't win that right? I am not trying to be mean, but can you be okay with him turning his back on his family/kids just to be with you? I am a step parent. There was no infidelity in how my H and I go together. We had both been divorced for several years. His daughter was very young when we got together. It took about 7 year - YEARS - for all of us to bond. There were plenty of fights, tears and anger...and many times I wasn't sure I could handle it all. Now, 13 years later, things are really good - with all the kids and us. Really good. But it was hard work and at times, very stressful. Jane......there isn't any way to say this without sounding harsh, but just understand that it's not personal, OK. What you've described in what you would want to happen if you and your husband divorce is a fantasy. Even if you take out the affair aspect out of it, it just does not happen like that except in the really rare unusual case. Under the best circumstances, things do not usually flow smoothly and most people find it impossible to live in such a situation as you describe. It's just not realistic. Throw in an affair and you've got a volatile situation and it's going to cause strife and people can deny it all they want but from the 1st moment that a person gets involved in an affair the children are hurt. The hurt can be small or it can be great but children are hurt when parents divorce or have affairs or have dysfunctional relationships........that is a cold hard fact. Great post!!! I can tell you - I never would have wanted my ex to move next to me oh hell no!!
Jane Deaux Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) You are right it can be done. But to simply think that one will put their hurt feelings on a shelf to accommodate you is naive and dismissive. It's not about me. It's about me wanting my children to have their Father. And him wanting them. Above and beyond anything else. So yes. I know he would put any anger and resentment aside to be with his children as often as he could. We have both stated in the past that whatever happened between us would not affect our children and they wouldn't have to pick or choose between us. I abhor the actions of parents who use the children and/or simply disregard what the children want to cater to their own hurt feelings. So yes, It can be done. And in our case, it would be. We both want the very best for our children, and the very best for them is BOTH of us without restriction. And still, putting myself in his shoes, yes, I would still put my hurt feelings aside. I have been the BS before, not with children, but I know the hurt. And I know I could get past that. My children mean more to me than any hurt feelings. They just do. They are my heart. :love: Edited April 12, 2011 by Jane Deaux
Jane Deaux Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Hi Jane. I understand how it would ideally work for you but what I keep thinking about is that both you & my MM are thinking of this from the position of the WS. The wildcard in all of this is what his wife chooses to do, or what your husband would choose to do. Imagine that you are my MM & your spouse caught you cheating again & again until he finally kicked you out of the house. Then you tell your spouse you are done with the marriage & are going to be with your OM. Do you really think your husband would feel as honky dory with those arrangements as you would? Do you think he would be okay living right by you & your OM & letting the kids go over there & hang out with you & OM. I imagine it wouldn't be so simple & that he would have his own wishes & put up a fight. And maybe your kids would be upset with you - as my MM's kids are upset with him - & not want to come see you or even tell you that they hate you or they don't want you to come home, ever, until they are in college [apparently this is what my MM's daughter has been saying to him.] So things might not work out as they want them to & he's very aware of that. What he wants & what he gets may be too very different things. It is different for me in this, that my children are young and would not understand the betrayal. So they wouldn't be likely to take it out on me or him, no matter what they saw between us. And we also understand that our actions regarding each other could scar them emotionally. I read a post on LS recently of a woman saying that her mother never spoke badly of her father to her. She said her mother told her that her father loved her no matter what happened between the mother and father. I know my H and I know he would rather have his children healthy than act in any way that would hurt them. Also, this is all not likely as my H doesn't know about MM and since we are not having contact right now and I don't know when we will, then he isn't likely to. And hopefully I'll stop being a coward, and take my own advice soon and make a decision and stop worrying so much about hurting my children. Maybe.
whichwayisup Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 From what you have written - he is basically going to have to choose -- you or his kids and family. You do know you won't win that right? I am not trying to be mean, but can you be okay with him turning his back on his family/kids just to be with you? The love you two share better be a strong enough glue to hold you two together if he does leave and divorce. The turmoil and tests that you two never had in an affair setting will be there front and centre in your relationship once it's out in the open. P26, did you read my reply to you afew pages back? Just wondering what your thoughts were on that.. Edit to add, i hope you're not feeling ganged up on.. Everybody cares alot and we don't want to see you get hurt/devastated, it's all coming from a caring place.
bentnotbroken Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 It's not about me. It's about me wanting my children to have their Father. And him wanting them. Above and beyond anything else. So yes. I know he would put any anger and resentment aside to be with his children as often as he could. We have both stated in the past that whatever happened between us would not affect our children and they wouldn't have to pick or choose between us. I abhor the actions of parents who use the children and/or simply disregard what the children want to cater to their own hurt feelings. So yes, It can be done. And in our case, it would be. We both want the very best for our children, and the very best for them is BOTH of us without restriction. And still, putting myself in his shoes, yes, I would still put my hurt feelings aside. I have been the BS before, not with children, but I know the hurt. And I know I could get past that. My children mean more to me than any hurt feelings. They just do. They are my heart. :love: Again, until the action is actually in practice...it is still theory. My children mean more to me than anything as well...he still didn't get what he wanted.
Author 26pointblue Posted April 12, 2011 Author Posted April 12, 2011 Well, I ended it. He made it easy on me. I caught him in a lie. And then he acted like it wasn't a lie, he made excuses, blamed it on me, & minimized the lie & my feelings. By the end he finally admitted he had f&^ked up & apologized, sincerely. But it was too late. I feel like he is treating me with no respect. I gave him everything & all I asked for in return was his honesty, & he couldn't even give me that. He's treating me just like he's been treating his wife this whole time. I don't think he loves either of us. I can't believe we only lasted a week after he left home, or got kicked out or whatever. But honestly I'm glad I found this out now instead of waiting longer. I was re-reading over my posts, & everyone else's posts today [yes, WhichWay, I read yours but at the time I was thinking it would be too hard to not see him], & I realized that from the beginning of him leaving I said what was important to me that he not be trying to get back in with his wife & also being with me & treating me like a dirty little secret still; that I wanted him to be sure, & that I wanted him to show me his decisions based on his actions. Well, I never had any of those things & it didn't look like I would be getting them any time soon. I didn't expect us to be an 'instant couple' - no FooledOnce I didn't mean I expected him to bring me around his family right now . . . I think I specifically said I know that can't happen right now or for quite some time but I don't think it's right that he was telling them he was done with me & concentrating on his family & himself when that was not the case. I wanted him to show decisive actions like telling him & his wife that he was done, if he was really done - though no, I didn't want or expect him to bring me around or even parade around the fact that he was with me - I just wanted us to no longer be living a lie. All we were is a lie. And if his wife still wants him, which it appears she does, then she can have him, I am done with him, for good. I needed to get to this point where I can be sure of walking away, sure that I gave my all, & I did. I can't do it on my own - he needed to step up & show that at least he was making action. He didn't, except I guess action back to his wife. So that's it. I'm done. I need to concentrate on myself & try not to think about him. And I don't want to date stupid guys like I was doing before when we broke up. I want to just be alone for a few months & not escape from my pain with him or with any other guy. I just have to live with it & feel it & I really hope move on from it. Thanks again to everyone for all your help through this. I had no idea it would be decided so quickly - I was preparing myself for a long & even more bumpy ride - but I can't go on any further because he obviously doesn't want me along. His actions or inaction are telling me that & I'm not going to keep fighting for someone who isn't fighting for me. I gained a lot of strength from this forum & I thank all of you for the help.
Jane Deaux Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I know you feel this way tonight. And that's good. Don't let him push you around. I can't imagine what the lie is. Maybe this is what it takes to get him to make a decision. If he comes to you in a month, all set on the path to divorce, proceedings started and everything a tad more calm and his head a tad more straight, and he tells you that he wants to be with you, that he realized it when he lost you, what will you do?
lovingwhatis Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I am very glad my words resonated, pointblue. Your sharing has touched me as well. The way you respond to posters who are being critical is graceful, and I guess MM appreciates that about you too since he is asking for your advice often. You have a lot of insight into your feelings, but maybe you are becoming a bit of a victim of your own insights. A friend said to me once, and I was really taken by her comment. Sometimes, for our own good, it is not the best to see All sides of every issue, it incapacitates us from acting. Plus, head and heart many times don't agree. What I am getting at is at one point you will find yourself at the juncture when you have to act. MM's inability to make up his mind, while understandable, is not a good for your soul. You said something that is really telling. You feel you have his love, but not necessarily his respect. That's so tough, because even though one can tell that he is projecting on you his guilt, you are absolutely Worthy of R E S P E C T (you know the song!). The thing about responsibility is, yes, you participated in the A with him, yes you are still having an A, but you weren't the one that married his W, had children with her, directly lied to her, and is causing all kinds of confusion in his children's lives. Those are things for him to figure out. I disagree with the general consensus here that because someone does all that, they are a bad person. Their actions are "bad", but they are not a bad person. That's why WWIU's advice to step back is a great one. By stepping back you regain will your self-respect, and his too. For he probably already admires your inner strength, but seeing your strength in action will be even more convincing. And also, you feel you will not go back in x time, that this will be it, this you don't know for sure as well. As another poster said, it will be a new R between the two of you, with a whole new dynamic. But taking that risk can give you more than you are currently realizing. Either way, you are facing him going back to his W, why not you choose Yourself, and then when time comes to re evaluate, you do that. You can still tell him clearly that it is not a question of your feelings to him. If he moves out, he will have really ****ty time, but he is overdue in facing himself anyway. Right now he is prolonging it as much as he possibly can. He will probably break down, the way an addict does, but that doesn't mean that one, as a loving person, needs to jump in to the rescue. It is his road to take. I truly hope his wife can realize it is not about keeping anything either, she has been disrespected so much as well, and only she knows what that is doing to her inside. Let him bottom out, he will not be the first nor the last person who needs to deal with their demons. Then you may have a healthier person with who to possibly forge a R. Or his wife may get that choice. Either way, you will affirm You. Your post was very touching, LovingWhatIs. Thank you for taking the tie to write it. I was 'happy' being his OW because I knew with absolute certainty that it was only going to be for a short period of time, & that it was going to be the best time we had ever had & may ever have, unless he actually goes through all of this work to get divorced & heal & we can actually be a real couple. I accepted the situation because I knew the alternatives - being alone without him, which was crappy, or having him be separated & confused, which was also crappy. Now here we are where he is separated & confused again but it is not of his own choosing, it is because his wife got fed up. I do feel he is more sure about getting divorced now - he realizes he needs to do that but just isn't sure how to go about it after messing everything else up. My issue is that I don't know how long I can wait for him to figure it out. As WhichWayIsUp says, I definitely need to set a deadline for myself & stick to it. Because I am not good at accepting this situation for what it is - I am not happy with it at all & am more 'surviving' it to try to see what's on the other side. Last night we were having one of these talks where he gets my opinion on things & looks to me for advice [why? I have never been through this & they are not my family or kids - but I try to be there for him & tell him objectively [[which is obviously very hard]] what I think he should do based on knowing how he's feeling & what would be the right thing to do after all of these wrong things] - & I said something like, 'it all keeps coming back to what you yourself want to do. What do you in your heart really want to do?' Obviously I was asking in terms of, staying married or getting divorced [& I guess with getting divorced comes two options - being with me or being alone]- & I was thinking he would just say he was unsure or not really answer me [& as someone posted earlier, that would show me that what he really wanted was the marriage & the affair, same as always], but his answer was, 'get a three-bedroom house near my kids so they can feel free to see me as much as they want.' Then he added, "the strange thing is, that when I think about it, I feel a big sense of relief & even excitement.' I believe that he was being genuine. I do think he wants out of his marriage to his wife but he is so scared of change & of not being with his kids. I'm not even sure if he wants to be with me if he gets divorced. It seems like all the turmoil & bad feelings of guilt & doubt have taken us to a place where he questions if he even wants to be with me . . . & due to all of those feelings & his indecision I do often question the same thing about him! But I hang on because I believe these feelings are temporary & inconsistent & I know that underneath it all, I love him. And I also feel that underneath it all, he loves me. I see it in his eyes & hear it in his voice & almost always feel it in the way he treats me except for that time a couple days ago when he was being mean to me - & not that there is an excuse for that but I don't think it was intentional, I think he was just frustrated & all over the place. Sometimes I wonder if I was just an aid to help him out of his marriage - I've felt since the time I met him that he was unhappy in his marriage & just putting up a front or image [& this was later confirmed by him by his words & of course his actions] - but then I always feel that he genuinely loves me & would be sticking it out in his marriage for the sake of his kids if he didn't love me & want to be with me, even though it is hard for him to do what it takes to get there. It's all so incredibly confusing & I know I got off track from your initial post, sorry about that. I do hear what you're saying. I do agree that love is not putting someone's needs about your own & in general I feel that would be wrong. But right now things are so crazy that I almost feel it's one of those situations where I just have to hang in there even though my needs aren't being met - I don't want to compare it to an illness but it is something along the lines of, this is where he is at, & if I don't want to walk away from him I need to suck it up & take care of myself & not expect him to be able to do that because he can't right now, but I still want to be there for him. I do know this is an unhealthy & less than ideal way to be in love but I am doing it in the hopes that it eventually becomes a healthy & ideal love. Where we can both meet each other's needs. But you're right, it's not like that right now & I don't know how much longer I can hang in there but I am also not ready to let go. I know what you mean about loving myself & letting go & I know I will need to get there unless he does what it takes. I will need strength to get there but I think I will be able to do it, knowing that's the place I'm at then, whereas now, this is the place I'm at. I think I'm just rambling now so I'm going to go but I really appreciate your post - it has touched me deeply & I will continue to think about it as I try to decide what to do. Thank you.
BB07 Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Hugs.......big hugs 26pointblue. I know it's hard right now......but honestly I think when a few months has passed you are going to see that you dodged a bullet and you are going to be thankful that you are out of this mess. We are here for you........
lovingwhatis Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Good for you, pointblue! As I was writing my post to you, you were writing yours, and I am very glad for you! I knew you are super strong woman, with a big heart, but also with a lot of inner knowledge! I have a feeling you will not have as hard of time with the breakup as you'd expect. You know exactly why you did it, and sounds like you found your own limit that you weren't aware of. Wishing you healing ! Hugs!!! Well, I ended it. He made it easy on me. I caught him in a lie. And then he acted like it wasn't a lie, he made excuses, blamed it on me, & minimized the lie & my feelings. By the end he finally admitted he had f&^ked up & apologized, sincerely. But it was too late. I feel like he is treating me with no respect. I gave him everything & all I asked for in return was his honesty, & he couldn't even give me that. He's treating me just like he's been treating his wife this whole time. I don't think he loves either of us. I can't believe we only lasted a week after he left home, or got kicked out or whatever. But honestly I'm glad I found this out now instead of waiting longer. I was re-reading over my posts, & everyone else's posts today [yes, WhichWay, I read yours but at the time I was thinking it would be too hard to not see him], & I realized that from the beginning of him leaving I said what was important to me that he not be trying to get back in with his wife & also being with me & treating me like a dirty little secret still; that I wanted him to be sure, & that I wanted him to show me his decisions based on his actions. Well, I never had any of those things & it didn't look like I would be getting them any time soon. I didn't expect us to be an 'instant couple' - no FooledOnce I didn't mean I expected him to bring me around his family right now . . . I think I specifically said I know that can't happen right now or for quite some time but I don't think it's right that he was telling them he was done with me & concentrating on his family & himself when that was not the case. I wanted him to show decisive actions like telling him & his wife that he was done, if he was really done - though no, I didn't want or expect him to bring me around or even parade around the fact that he was with me - I just wanted us to no longer be living a lie. All we were is a lie. And if his wife still wants him, which it appears she does, then she can have him, I am done with him, for good. I needed to get to this point where I can be sure of walking away, sure that I gave my all, & I did. I can't do it on my own - he needed to step up & show that at least he was making action. He didn't, except I guess action back to his wife. So that's it. I'm done. I need to concentrate on myself & try not to think about him. And I don't want to date stupid guys like I was doing before when we broke up. I want to just be alone for a few months & not escape from my pain with him or with any other guy. I just have to live with it & feel it & I really hope move on from it. Thanks again to everyone for all your help through this. I had no idea it would be decided so quickly - I was preparing myself for a long & even more bumpy ride - but I can't go on any further because he obviously doesn't want me along. His actions or inaction are telling me that & I'm not going to keep fighting for someone who isn't fighting for me. I gained a lot of strength from this forum & I thank all of you for the help.
Carrot2000 Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I can't believe we only lasted a week after he left home, or got kicked out or whatever. But honestly I'm glad I found this out now instead of waiting longer. Better a week of turmoil than a lifetime of bull$hit. Be proud of yourself for having the courage to love someone with everything you have. And be prouder still that you value yourself enough to not allow anyone to disregard and disrespect you. Good things are coming your way.
Author 26pointblue Posted April 12, 2011 Author Posted April 12, 2011 If he comes to you in a month, all set on the path to divorce, proceedings started and everything a tad more calm and his head a tad more straight, and he tells you that he wants to be with you, that he realized it when he lost you, what will you do? I can't say at this point. I know I said that when I was done, I would be done, but maybe I meant just done with this drama. Honestly right now the picture you just painted sounds like a dream come true - all of his love without any of the drama, which I guess is how it's supposed to be. But then again I do plan to move on with my life. I need to work on myself & get ready to be in a real relationship with someone who treats me the way I know I deserve to be treated. If that's him, then yes, I would do it - I am still madly in love with him but I am just trying to protect myself & not keep letting him step on me. Depending on how long it takes him, I may have already moved on too much or found someone else. A month - no - I don't plan to date at all. But longer than three months, I do hope to be looking for my Mr. Right. Also sadly I just don't think that will happen because I think he will stay married [which is fine - I want for him what he wants for him] or if he does get divorced he will move on from me, maybe I was just his pillow. I don't know. I guess I feel down about it right now but strangely I don't have that many bad feelings towards him. I think it's because I've been through it all - the sadness, pain, anger, loneliness - & I am really ready to be done with it! I have felt all that I can feel [& strangely I still feel the happiness from the good times, the look in his eyes & the way I looked at him & I know for sure that I loved him with everything in me, & so I have no regrets, but I will regret it if I don't start moving on now]. If he comes to me a more sure man who knows what he wants & that it's me, & if I'm still available & my heart can be open to him again, then yes, I would give it my best shot. But at this point it's all just a fantasy . . . I can't imagine it actually happening. Thanks for your support Jane.
spice4life Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 26pointblue, I really feel for you because all of this must be so triggering for you. It would certainly make me trigger if I had to hear how confused my love was about me and another woman. I would be triggering all over the place, but I would probably hide it...lol. I'm not trying to make light of this very difficult situation, just trying to empathize if I were in your shoes. It's a good thing you are venting here to get it l out. My only advice is this (and I said it before), is to detach yourself from the drama, lay low and take care of YOU. I am not telling you to abandon him, i'm saying retreat and take time to build up your emotional reserves. Men have a harder time with divorce and they bounce all over the place until they feel their emotions are back in check. What he needs right now more than anything, is someone who is stable while he is on this roller coaster of temporary craziness. Set healthy boundaries for yourself and let him know when he is stepping over the line. He needs someone to set them because he can't right now.
whichwayisup Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 ((P26)) You reached your enough is enough stage, he pushed you too far and the guy (once again) proved that he has no balls. He lets others dictate decisions. What a p.*ssy! Well, I ended it. He made it easy on me. I caught him in a lie. And then he acted like it wasn't a lie, he made excuses, blamed it on me, & minimized the lie & my feelings. By the end he finally admitted he had f&^ked up & apologized, sincerely. But it was too late. I feel like he is treating me with no respect. I gave him everything & all I asked for in return was his honesty, & he couldn't even give me that. He's treating me just like he's been treating his wife this whole time. I don't think he loves either of us. Part I bolded..He loves himself more. Yes, he did push you too far and knew you'd end it.. and how he treated you is exactly what he's done to his wife. He's broken and messed up. To expect or hope honesty from someone who is cheating on his wife, a skilled liar to keep an affair going right under his wife's nose..Well, his words are not trustworthy. Now you know this. Sorry you're hurting. Take this one day at a time, keep posting. You've done the right thing for you by ending it.
Author 26pointblue Posted April 12, 2011 Author Posted April 12, 2011 I bolded my responses after those portions of your post I wanted to address. Thanks. :-) You have a lot of insight into your feelings, but maybe you are becoming a bit of a victim of your own insights. A friend said to me once, and I was really taken by her comment. Sometimes, for our own good, it is not the best to see All sides of every issue, it incapacitates us from acting. Plus, head and heart many times don't agree. What I am getting at is at one point you will find yourself at the juncture when you have to act. MM's inability to make up his mind, while understandable, is not a good for your soul. It's funny that you say that because I have also felt that my greatest strength as well as my greatest drawback is my brain & the way I think about things! I over-analyze & get stuck in 'analysis paralysis' instead of being able to fairly quickly make a decision & act on it. So I know exactly what you mean. If you see my latest update you know I came to a decision & act on it . . . I think I was looking for a sign of whether to end it or stay & he sure gave me one with his lying. So I acted on it, ended things, & as of right now I don't regret it. I was trying to ignore my thoughts & just ride it out with him but that wasn't working. I am way too analytical to do that . . . & he knows that & I think it is better for both of us if we are not together. You said something that is really telling. You feel you have his love, but not necessarily his respect. That's so tough, because even though one can tell that he is projecting on you his guilt, you are absolutely Worthy of R E S P E C T (you know the song!). The thing about responsibility is, yes, you participated in the A with him, yes you are still having an A, but you weren't the one that married his W, had children with her, directly lied to her, and is causing all kinds of confusion in his children's lives. Those are things for him to figure out. I disagree with the general consensus here that because someone does all that, they are a bad person. Their actions are "bad", but they are not a bad person. That's why WWIU's advice to step back is a great one. By stepping back you regain will your self-respect, and his too. For he probably already admires your inner strength, but seeing your strength in action will be even more convincing. And also, you feel you will not go back in x time, that this will be it, this you don't know for sure as well. As another poster said, it will be a new R between the two of you, with a whole new dynamic. But taking that risk can give you more than you are currently realizing. Either way, you are facing him going back to his W, why not you choose Yourself, and then when time comes to re evaluate, you do that. You can still tell him clearly that it is not a question of your feelings to him. If he moves out, he will have really ****ty time, but he is overdue in facing himself anyway. Right now he is prolonging it as much as he possibly can. He will probably break down, the way an addict does, but that doesn't mean that one, as a loving person, needs to jump in to the rescue. It is his road to take. I truly hope his wife can realize it is not about keeping anything either, she has been disrespected so much as well, and only she knows what that is doing to her inside. Let him bottom out, he will not be the first nor the last person who needs to deal with their demons. Then you may have a healthier person with who to possibly forge a R. Or his wife may get that choice. Either way, you will affirm You. This rings very true & is what I've done by default. He does need to face himself & he can't do that with me in the picture. I also don't think he can do that if he goes back home right away or into another woman's arms - but that is no longer my concern. It feels good to know that what he does or doesn't do can't affect me anymore. If he does learn, grow, face himself, come out stronger & knows that he wants me, then yes, then & only then would I give him another chance. I don't see that happening but those are the only circumstances under which I do see it being able to happen. Thanks LovingWhatIs, you are so helpful.
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