He left

[Got it]

I highly recommend reading "Surviving my Boyfriend's Divorce". It gives you great advice on how to set your boundaries and take care of you.

[BB07]

26blue.......you have a lot of insight and understanding about yourself and your place in all of this mess. There are other posts that have hit upon some key things for you to think about such as your mm seems to be spinning out of control which doesn't seem to be indicative of a man who was ready for what is happening now. Some of it would certainly be expected but I don't understand his cruelty to you and his reluctance to be with you unless he is on some level blaming you for the circumstances right now. If he is blaming you that shows a lack of being able to accept responsibility for his own actions that got him to this place and it shows an immaturity which some would say was already shown by him cheating on his wife.

 

My advice to you would be to establish boundaries for yourself and not become his punching bag. I would also think that would help you feel more in control as your world is spinning also.

 

Hugs........

[spice4life]

I highly recommend reading "Surviving my Boyfriend's Divorce". It gives you great advice on how to set your boundaries and take care of you.

 

This is great advice. 26blue, you need to detach from the drama and focus on you because it will give you some time to rejuvenate your spirit. His life is a mess right now and he IS going to be all over the place for a while. If he needs space then give him space...if needs to talk let him talk. BUT, don't let him use you as his whipping post. Draw the line at him taking his anger and frustration out on you. If he is feeling angry that is fine and tell him so. Tell him to vent it out, stomp, scream...whatever he has to do so long as he is not taking it out on you.

 

This is pretty much how it is for men who are going through a divorce. If you think the affair was a roller coaster, it was a kiddie ride compared to them going through a possible divorce.

 

Pull back, lay low, live your life and don't get your hopes up. That is all you can do.

Edited April 10, 2011 by spice4life

[lovingwhatis]

Pointblue, I am sorry you are going through this experience. I've been reading your posts and the candor with which you express your emotions and thoughts is heartbreaking...

 

I agree with the advice the ladies have been giving you, to step back and think of you and what you want. Seems to not be easy in such a whirlwind situation. That things have turned emotionally abusive is unfortunate.. MM seems out of his mind, and I totally agree that setting very specific boundaries can only help you.

 

The thing I would add is though you are in the midst of the drama right now, be kind to yourself and start the forgiveness process towards him and yourself. You seem to be experiencing sooo much guilt and are acutely aware of what your part of this is. But ultimately, dwelling on that and not moving forward with it will end up being emotionally punishing to yourself. Start the process of healing now. It will be very helpful down the road.

 

Yes, he is being a jerk now. But instead of getting super upset about him being a jerk, maybe you can see that you can accept what is (the current total drama and his very crazy reaction to it) AND still set boundaries for yourself. I've just not been a fan of getting angry for the purpose of finding the strength to set the boundaries. It seems that every time I do it, it is because I have avoided taking responsibility for where I am at, and not really making steps to really practice self-love. Ultimately, we can only love others as well as we love ourselves.

 

Wishing you healing!

[spice4life]

Sadintexas wrote:

 

"When I suggested that you step back in one of my posts to you, I meant it. It's time for you to figure out what you want and need from a relationship. Sometimes letting go of something we want is something we have to do to open the door to receive what we need."

 

Excellent excellent advice! 26point, this precisely what you need to do. Thanks sadintexas, you have given me a lot to think about as well.

 

Have a nice afternoon!

[lovingwhatis]

Thank you so much for sharing, sadintexas! What a powerful story, and a great advice. Its beautiful that your H finally woke up and healed.

 

I'm going to share something ith you. I tried to send you a PM but you couldn't receive. I've posted some about my H and my M here, but there's something I haven't shared.

 

My H is a recovering alcoholic. We've known each other 17+ years, dated when we were in our 20's. Then he went back to his home state and we remained close friends. We both met and married other people. Our spouses were well aware of our friendship. All the fun and romantic stuff and other details are posted in other posts here, but aren't relevant to this.

 

A couple of years ago, he filed for D from his then W and I had already D my exH. He came to see me. I knew he'd had a drinking problem, but I didn't know how bad it was until he came to see me. We talked frankly about it and he wanted to quit so we made an appt with my family doctor as a starting point. Long story short, he didn't want to do what the dr said so the next morning I put him on a plane back home.

 

He kept drinking and back and forth with his then W because she enabled his drinking (and I was drug into the middle of all the ensuing drama from it all) so I cut him out of my life. I told him I couldn't have anything to do with him while he was being so disrespectful to me (I'd told him not to call me when he was drunk) and I couldn't watch him kill himself. It was hard to do because we'd been very close for so many years, but I had to for my own self preservation.

 

Cutting him off woke him up and about 6 months later his D was finalized and he went through rehab and then went through a year of intensive counseling.

 

He contacted me when he was well on his road to recovery and we resumed our friendship. He told me he was going to do whatever it took to show me that he was serious about us being together...and he did. We married last October.

 

He still attends counseling and serves on the Board of Directors for our local AA chapter. He's serious about his recovery and serious about us. He didn't stop working on himself because he got what he wanted.

 

My point is that I could have "had" him a couple of years ago. And in all the years we'd been apart, I'd wanted nothing more than to be with him. But THAT was not the man I could have built a life with, no matter how much I loved him. Letting him go was the best thing I ever did because he turned his life around and now we have a very happy M and a good life together.

 

When I suggested that you step back in one of my posts to you, I meant it. It's time for you to figure out what you want and need from a relationship. Sometimes letting go of something we want is something we have to do to open the door to receive what we need.

[26pointblue]

Thank you to everyone for all the recent advice, especially the book recommendation, Got It, & the heartfelt shared life experience, sadintexas. I really appreciate all the help.

 

I'm actually at my office to catch up on some work but I wanted to briefly write with an update & address some points.

 

MM came over last night & we had a deep talk where I told him I didn't appreciate how he has been treating me lately & that he can tell me anything he is thinking or feeling - even if it's 'I no longer want to be with you' - & I'll accept it, but he can't raise his voice, speak sarcastically to me, or make me feel like he is belittling me, or else I can't go on.

 

He apologized & said he hadn't realized he was doing that. He is a very passionate & emotional person & sometimes goes too far with expressing himself. I'm the same way- I can be explosive, either crying or raising my voice & over-reacting instead of just thinking things through first [except I don't think I ever insult him or try to make him feel bad]. So he said that even though things are very difficult right now & emotions are all over the place, he will speak to me kindly & treat me with respect & try to reign in the explosive reactions.

 

He also said that he has felt bad about us because it all started to feel so sordid & wrong, with it being brought to the total light & him realizing the extent of hurt he's caused, but he knows that's separate from his feelings from me & a result of guilt & regreat, & that he really does love me very much.

 

After a long talk [i didn't have time to write out everything we talked about - it was a lot] it was like the love I always felt from him returned, he seemed so in love with me & happy to be with me. I was really thinking I had lost that, that it was gone forever or at least maybe forever, & once again I was rather suprised at the turn of events, thinking, wow, nothing surprises me now & there are so many ups & downs.

 

I think it's like when he's away from me, he feels a lot of guilt & starts to question us, but when he's with me & gets it off his chest & vents, then he can relax more & he remembers what he loves about me/us & things feel good again. There is so much back & forth but when we're together it almost always feels right.

 

About the woman friend I thought he had dinner with - I may have been overly suspicious & paranoid, in my trying to figure out why he was acting so distant. It's not that he didn't want to hang out with me on Thursday night - I had made other plans with my friend because he was supposed to take his son to dinner. But when he got to his house, his son didn't want to go to dinner. So he called me but I was already on my way to my friend's house. So then he called up one of his friends [male] - he has a close group of male friends but he's been hanging out with them particularly a lot lately, as well as with his family members - I think he just doesn't want to be alone & he doesn't always want to be around me because he wants to process all the different thoughts in a neutral environment [which I understand]. So he sent me a message that he was meeting up with that friend. Well what set off alarm bells in my head is that he sent me a message an hour or so later & asked if he could come over after his dinner & after I got home from my friend's, & spend the night . . . I said sure & asked him where he was so that I could coordinate us getting back to my house at about the same time, & he said the name of a restaurant, & for some reason I asked him who he was with [although he had told me his friend, earlier - but I thought he had meant he was going over to his friend's, not to a restaurant for dinner] - & he told me the name of another of his friends & said that the first friend had bailed. For one thing I was thinking, what is going on, first his son cancelled, now his other friend, & the biggest alarm was the name of the friend he told me, it is not one of his close friends & is in fact the name he would use as an alibi to his wife when he was really with me. So I don't know if I'm just feeling guilty/suspicious & waiting for karma to bite me in the butt, or whether he was lying. There's been this woman who has been texting him ever since we got back together - he's been friends with her for a long time but they talked a lot while he was separated & while he & I were not seeing each other - & he says they're still just friends & were never anything more, & he shows me her texts, but they are all very flirty on her end & always trying to meet up with him & I am sure she wants more. So I thought the worst, that he was done with me & was meeting up with her [but then he asked to stay over, & he did, so, that doesn't really fit with my theory at the time]. Anyway I talked to him last night about my suspicions about this & he said he definitely was not at dinner with her. The first friend he was going to meet up with, & this other other friend, all went to the restaurant but the first friend bailed after drinks & appetizers because he had to get home, & so then he stayed & had dinner with the second friend [our old alibi]. He also showed me some texts from this woman recently where it was pretty obvious he had been ignoring her; she was like, 'I know you're busy & can't meet up but I really need your ear for a minute . . ." & then went into some reasons she wanted his business advice. He told me he knows that I'm right that she wants to be more than friends & he hasn't & won't hang out with her.

 

So, I don't know, I mean, I have to trust him because I don't have evidence to the contrary & I don't want to live my life being suspicious of him just because of what he & I did as an affair. But it does concern me & I'm going to keep my eyes open about it because I don't want to be stupid.

 

Which brings me to the last point which is how some of you had said I should be using this time of stepping back to think about what I really want. I guess that's where I'm at, where, he certainly hasn't been acting like the kind of man I always thought I wanted. Decisive, action-oriented, true to his word, reliable, putting my needs & interests first, & always making me feel important to him & cherished by him no matter what. But then I remember that due to these circumstances those things would be just about impossible right now. I do understand that he's conflicted & all over the place. I don't excuse any emotional mistreatment of me & that will be a deal-breaker. The rest, though, I feel like I should wait & see what happens, because it's not really fair to judge anything at this juncture. In the past he has always been reliable to me, he has always acted like I was important to him & cherished by him, he has always met my needs. Yes it was within the context of an affair but one of the reasons I was 'happy' is that he never made it seem like we were an affair. I know it was a 'fantasy' but it felt like we were a real couple & he would always spend all his time with me & want to be near me. I did have reason to doubt what he said because I realized he was lying both to his wife & to me . . . even by 'accident,' by telling me in the past that he was going to get divorced & be with me when clearly he wasn't sure about that . . . I don't think that's something he purposefully tried to lie about but was just going with the part of him that did want that, but still, it made it hard to trust what he said & so I guess I decided to just see what happened, & I'm still doing that. And there are many other things I love about him, his passion, his intelligence, his ambition, his smile & laugh, his sense of humor, the way he listens to me & talks to me, the way he's interested in what I love, the way he shares his own interests with me, our chemistry & connection & it doesn't hurt a bit that it is the best sexual relationship I've ever had & we are certainly in tune on that front. So . . . I'm at the point where I don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater but I am having serious doubts, which is sad, but I keep thinking, I deserve better, & I don't like that he still doesn't know if he really wants to be with me, & whether he can do what it takes to make that happen.

 

I also don't want to jump ship when he needs me the most. Whenever I get upset & think I deserve better, I find myself thinking, wait a minute, now that I 'have' him, I don't want him? I just caught him for sport & I'm throwing him back? But no . . . then I remind myself that I don't really 'have' him. As others have pointed out, he never made any decision or took any action on his end . . . his wife just had had enough & threw him out & he realized what he had done but he still stays in pretty much the same place, between both of us. I know for 100% certain that if I did 'have' him - as in, if he had told me he wants us to be together & he is doing what it takes to make that happen, & he was acting on it - I would not question my decision to be with him. I would want to give it my all & hope it works out even though I know it would be hard, & I wouldn't have these doubts about him [because most of them come from him not doing all of those things that would show me he decided he wants me for real]. Yes, I would have some trust issues & I'm sure he would have times when he wondered if I would want to do this again with another MM or something, or some transference of guilt. I am sure both of us would have issues to work on but they seem easy to overcome versus this feeling of knowing I am not his definite choice, he has not done anything to head in my direction of his own accord.

 

So, things are still in limbo. Last night after our talk we went out with my friends & had a great, fun time, just like we used to, & this morning we went to breakfast & talked some more, & things feel very good between us. But I'm not forgetting that they just felt extremely tenuous. I think there are more ups & downs & back & forths to come. At this point I am sticking to backing off, stepping away, & concentrating on my own life & what I want, but still being here for him & seeing him or talking to him when possible. I have made it a point not to ask anything about his decisions or status - for instance, I don't ask if he has been to the house or if he's talked to his wife, etc. - but he always volunteers this information, almost as if he's looking for my advice or input. The only thing that's clear to me is that he's still incredibly confused. And so I just have to stay focused on me & see what happens, that is, as long as he doesn't become mean-spirited to me again, because that will show me I need to get out for my own sanity's sake.

 

Thanks again - I'm glad you all are here for me & I will write more later when I get some work done.

[Tinkerbell1]

OP, I have been following your thread and all of your ups and downs and I feel for you. I just wanted to point out something. People keep givihg you great advice about backing away for a bit to get your head clear whle he is figuring things out. You keep posting that that is what you are doing when in fact, you are only doing it until he calls you or comes over and that is not at all detaching or backing away. I dont mean to be harsh but you have to be very real with yourself if you are to survive this mess and if you keep playing by his rules you will not do well.

 

It appears from what you ahve written that HE IS CALLING ALL OF THE SHOTS and you are reacting. For example, you write about feeling a certain way, that he's not respecting you etc and then you talk to him and come back on here and explain it away. Then you are hurt by something else, and you talk to him and you feel okay about it. But my point is, you are in reactive mode versus proactive. Take charge of YOU no matter what he does. He will be pulling away again, and you have no control over his moods but you do have control over you.

 

Someone pointed out that he seems to pull away everytime he talks to his wife and you said yourself he seems weird and blames you until he is with you and then he remembers how things are with you again and its all okay. That is not a secure position for you if he is so easily swayed and forgets your bond when he is not with you. Be careful and be PROACTIVE with your own life as you have control over you no matter who MM talks to or what he thinks.

 

You have received so much support and great suggestions just make sure you are taking them. Please know that i DO support you, i just felt compelled to post because your words arent always matching your actions. And to be honest, things are going to get much worse when he realizes this is very very real regarding losing his family. I think all of us here do not want to see you going through more hardship than you have to.

[jwi71]

I'd like to post a few questions...forgive me if these were previously addressed.

 

1) Has he filed for D? Now that he has, again, the perfect chance to "be with you" has he officially taken it? I find it....interesting...that in all this back and forth and moving out and going back he NEVER filed. I bet the county clerk has a website where you can view court matters - its public domain after all. Failing that, call the county clerk where "they" reside and ask. If he hasn't filed, why not?

 

2) Have you met his family (parents, siblings, et al)? What are the Thanksgiving plans? Chrsitmas? Family get-togethers? Are you invited and welcome?

 

3) Lastly, his children. Have you met them? Are you prepared for an initially horrible (and perhaps eternally horrible) R with your step-children? I say horrible because you will take them blame on this in their eyes. What are the plans to integrating you into their lives?

 

Lots of red flags pertaining to his behaviors.

[26pointblue]

OP, I have been following your thread and all of your ups and downs and I feel for you. I just wanted to point out something. People keep givihg you great advice about backing away for a bit to get your head clear whle he is figuring things out. You keep posting that that is what you are doing when in fact, you are only doing it until he calls you or comes over and that is not at all detaching or backing away. I dont mean to be harsh but you have to be very real with yourself if you are to survive this mess and if you keep playing by his rules you will not do well.

 

It appears from what you ahve written that HE IS CALLING ALL OF THE SHOTS and you are reacting. For example, you write about feeling a certain way, that he's not respecting you etc and then you talk to him and come back on here and explain it away. Then you are hurt by something else, and you talk to him and you feel okay about it. But my point is, you are in reactive mode versus proactive. Take charge of YOU no matter what he does. He will be pulling away again, and you have no control over his moods but you do have control over you.

 

Someone pointed out that he seems to pull away everytime he talks to his wife and you said yourself he seems weird and blames you until he is with you and then he remembers how things are with you again and its all okay. That is not a secure position for you if he is so easily swayed and forgets your bond when he is not with you. Be careful and be PROACTIVE with your own life as you have control over you no matter who MM talks to or what he thinks.

 

You have received so much support and great suggestions just make sure you are taking them. Please know that i DO support you, i just felt compelled to post because your words arent always matching your actions. And to be honest, things are going to get much worse when he realizes this is very very real regarding losing his family. I think all of us here do not want to see you going through more hardship than you have to.

 

Hi TinkerBell, I appreciate your post & advice.

 

I have realized I may not be 'stepping away' as much, but honestly, I'm not sure what that means or should mean. To me it meant not expecting anything from him, realizing & accepting that he can't meet my needs right now, but also being here for him & supporting him. I make my own plans & if he is able to join, cool, if not, cool. If I don't have plans & he wants to see me, cool. Am I doing this wrong? Am I supposed to be not talking to him or seeing him at all? I feel like that would be showing that I'm not here for him or can't handle this [sometimes I do wonder if I can handle it, & seeing him & spending time with him helps me remember why I'm doing it . . .]

 

I'm not sure what actions I should or shouldn't be taking. Perhaps I'm just as confused as he is! I know what I want - for us to be together - but I know that isn't what is happening right now, & he's not even taking steps in that direction.

 

So I was thinking I'll just let things hang up in the air & concentrate on myself for awhile while he figures he s&*t out. I asked him what he needs & he said patience & time. He said he doesn't question our relationship or love but he is concerned with the mechanics of things & the timeline. He knows I can't do this forever but for a time I was just suspending my own expectations or needs & letting him have space, while still being in his life. Honestly I'd miss him very much if we didn't talk, & I'm not ready to walk away yet. I think I'm a very all-or-nothing person & so this is very hard for me & I just keep thinking, at what point am I going to walk away? What is my breaking point? I feel that when I walk away it will be for good - because I will know I gave it my all & I need to move on & leave this in the past. I'm not there yet & so I don't know what to do in the meantime except wait.

 

I do agree he pulls away after he talks to his wife [or other family members], & comes back close after he & I talk. It's a bit exhausting!

[26pointblue]

Hi Jwi, I hope I'm doing this right- I'm addressing your questions by putting my answers in bold underneath each of them.

I'd like to post a few questions...forgive me if these were previously addressed.

 

1) Has he filed for D? Now that he has, again, the perfect chance to "be with you" has he officially taken it? I find it....interesting...that in all this back and forth and moving out and going back he NEVER filed. I bet the county clerk has a website where you can view court matters - its public domain after all. Failing that, call the county clerk where "they" reside and ask. If he hasn't filed, why not?

 

No, he hasn't filed for divorce. Sometimes he says he is waiting for his wife to file because it will be easier for her to move on if she is the one to file. Other times I realize he just isn't sure enough to file for divorce.

 

 

2) Have you met his family (parents, siblings, et al)? What are the Thanksgiving plans? Chrsitmas? Family get-togethers? Are you invited and welcome?

 

I have not met his extended family - now they know about me through his wife telling them & then him talking to them about me but I have never met them, doubt they would ever like me [my sister does not like him in my life - the rest of my family doesn't know about him but I know they wouldn't approve], and there have been no plans made for the holidays. That seems like forever from now because we are in the thick of things.

 

3) Lastly, his children. Have you met them? Are you prepared for an initially horrible (and perhaps eternally horrible) R with your step-children? I say horrible because you will take them blame on this in their eyes. What are the plans to integrating you into their lives?

 

I have met his children before we were involved in the affair. I know they hate the idea of me, would hate me when they meet me, & would probably never like me. They are teenagers & pretty independent & of course they have their mother. . . so I don't expect to play any sort of 'mothering' role & I would just do whatever he thought was best for them. I'm not saying I wouldn't want to be apart of their lives [i would], I just mean that I have no idea how it all works & I would do whatever was best for them.

 

All he has talked about in terms of integration is renting a house with enough bedrooms for them so that they might want to come stay with him as often as possible [he is convinced his daughter hates him - he thinks his son will want to stay with him a lot], & that of course I wouldn't be there for awhile when they come over but after time & after having them get used to the idea he would integrate us.

Whenever we are talking about us as a couple in the future he says he envisions it happening but he is unsure about the mechanics of it & doesn't want to do things wrong & hurt his kids even more. Meanwhile we have made a huge mess of things by sneaking around, lying, being caught, still half-sneaking around, etc. I tell him that I don't know the right way to do things but this can't possibly be it. He will often ask me for my opinion on how I think he should go about it & honestly I have no idea but I just recommend being straight-forward with them & making them feel as secure as possible & letting them know he loves them & will always be in their life as much as he will let them. I think a big problem is he feels so much guilt & he is convinced they will never forgive him, he also says things like his wife will use this & this against him to his kids & prevent him from ever seeing them. I point out that they're teenagers & have their own choice in the matter, but he has this fear of being completely ostracized from them. It's like he looks at it in terms of staying together with the family or being shunned & hated by them. I suppose this could happen but what I sense from what he tells me is that they are just confused & scared but they do love their father & wouldn't not want him in their lives.

 

Lots of red flags pertaining to his behaviors.

[BB07]

26blue........After your last post, I've just got to chime in with what I've been thinking all along but I didn't want to be such a negative nilly but I'm going to be because I think you need to prepare yourself.

 

I think he is going to go back to his wife if she will let him because he is not done with his marriage. Some of the stuff he is going through is certainly explainable but some of it is not. I think he is blaming you and he resents you, yes it goes away when he is with you but when he is away from you, he feels pulled in another direction (toward his wife). To blame you shows his lack of direction and his inability to own up to what a mess he has created. Also......he didn't have a plan for when this day happened, if he was truly ready he would have had a plan. I think he is using you and his wife as back up plans because this guy doesn't have the courage or conviction to even know what he wants. I also think in a few months time that you aren't going to see much at all about him that was truly lovable.

 

I'm sorry to be so harsh but this man is not the right man for you and he is going to bring you down. I hope you get off this ride sooner than later.

[mtndew]

First off, I have kept up with your posts and have been very impressed with the way you have handled not only your MM, but also the various posters who tend to come here and torch OW like yourself. It seems like the situation has gotten you out of the composure that you had before MM moved out/kicked out.

 

As far as your MM, he is going thru intense emotions 24/7 and one call from a kid, the BW, you, maybe even his attorney.... if he is actually speaking to one... can change his entire attitude and demeaner. For a MM that is in a situation like yours where there are feelings of "true" love, he is torn between what he wants and what he has to do to get it. All of the time. How's it going to affect the kids, finances, the same as is hammered home here thread after thread. But now he is facing the fire directly. If he is as he says, he does want to be with you. And if he did get thrown out, he didn't have time to think things through. He has to be so overwhelmed now with so much on the line.

 

My advice to you, as tough as it is, is to be patient, be patient, be patient. I know it is a hard thing. You want to know and you want to know now, dammit. You guys have made it this far. Let him survive the fallout without the added pressure you may bring to the table. By you keeping the coolness that I know you have, you will let this thing work through its course. The result will be wonderful if he is "true" and is man enough to do the work. Or he will show you who he truly is, away from the fog of the affair, not do the work and treat you like he already has shown you a brief glimpse.

 

As they say, "if it is meant to be... it is up to me!" Keep it cool. Be the person you are and that he loves. Be patient and when everything shakes out, you will be better and stronger than before. With him by your side... or with him in your rearview mirror.

[26pointblue]

26blue........After your last post, I've just got to chime in with what I've been thinking all along but I didn't want to be such a negative nilly but I'm going to be because I think you need to prepare yourself.

 

I think he is going to go back to his wife if she will let him because he is not done with his marriage. Some of the stuff he is going through is certainly explainable but some of it is not. I think he is blaming you and he resents you, yes it goes away when he is with you but when he is away from you, he feels pulled in another direction (toward his wife). To blame you shows his lack of direction and his inability to own up to what a mess he has created. Also......he didn't have a plan for when this day happened, if he was truly ready he would have had a plan. I think he is using you and his wife as back up plans because this guy doesn't have the courage or conviction to even know what he wants. I also think in a few months time that you aren't going to see much at all about him that was truly lovable.

 

I'm sorry to be so harsh but this man is not the right man for you and he is going to bring you down. I hope you get off this ride sooner than later.

 

You sound just like my sister. She says to run far & fast & that he is going to end up hurting me; she even thinks his wife will end up hurting me [not that I could blame her].

 

I don't think he will hurt me - every time I've walked away, he's put up a fight but he's let me; he hasn't done anything to harm me in any way once I said I needed out. [i suppose it could be different now that he feels unstable with his wife & could probably turn around & say 'but I left her for you & now you are leaving me . . .' when clearly he did not leave her, & not for me, but I'm sure this is how he might see it.] Regardless it does make me sad that he cannot give his all to me. That he can't choose me & go with that, or just let me know he has chosen his wife. That is all I've wanted but still I don't have it. Nor do I have all the good times of the affair. So yeah what am I doing? Just existing & waiting for him to make up his mind, which is dumb, which is why I kept asking if I don't deserve better . . . even though I do love him so much.

 

Just today at breakfast he told me that his wife said the only way she will take him back is on all of these conditions, & he doesn't think he could live that way, although he has thought about it for his kids' sake, but he knows he won't be happy that way, & he's also afraid of failing & messing things up again for the umpteenth time. I understand where he's coming from but I was just sitting there thinking that he's basically telling me he would go back home if it weren't for these conditions his wife was putting on him . . . I just always feel hit hard with the thought that, as you say, I am his back-up [or his wife is his back-up; it alternates]. That is not a good feeling but I guess I'm allowing it by sticking around . . . my only other choice is to pressure him [which won't work] or to leave him altogether, or to just hang on & wait & see what happens. Not forever but for a little while until his head stops spinning.

[26pointblue]

First off, I have kept up with your posts and have been very impressed with the way you have handled not only your MM, but also the various posters who tend to come here and torch OW like yourself. It seems like the situation has gotten you out of the composure that you had before MM moved out/kicked out.

 

As far as your MM, he is going thru intense emotions 24/7 and one call from a kid, the BW, you, maybe even his attorney.... if he is actually speaking to one... can change his entire attitude and demeaner. For a MM that is in a situation like yours where there are feelings of "true" love, he is torn between what he wants and what he has to do to get it. All of the time. How's it going to affect the kids, finances, the same as is hammered home here thread after thread. But now he is facing the fire directly. If he is as he says, he does want to be with you. And if he did get thrown out, he didn't have time to think things through. He has to be so overwhelmed now with so much on the line.

 

My advice to you, as tough as it is, is to be patient, be patient, be patient. I know it is a hard thing. You want to know and you want to know now, dammit. You guys have made it this far. Let him survive the fallout without the added pressure you may bring to the table. By you keeping the coolness that I know you have, you will let this thing work through its course. The result will be wonderful if he is "true" and is man enough to do the work. Or he will show you who he truly is, away from the fog of the affair, not do the work and treat you like he already has shown you a brief glimpse.

 

As they say, "if it is meant to be... it is up to me!" Keep it cool. Be the person you are and that he loves. Be patient and when everything shakes out, you will be better and stronger than before. With him by your side... or with him in your rearview mirror.

 

Wow, are you my MM? Ha ha just kidding, but you really sound like him. He does ask me to be patient & he does tell me those exact things - he loves me, wants to be with me but hadn't prepared for this [when was he planning to prepare? Right before the encounter with his wife that got him kicked out, he had told me very seriously that he couldn't live without me, that he wanted to do what it took to be with me, & that he needed my help in the mechanics of it, such as where he will live, what is the best way to deal with his kids, etc. . . . I think what has been keeping me going even through the roughest times in the last few days is that I really & truly believed that he was getting ready to leave, & when he said that I believed him. I'm really glad he told me that just before he got kicked out, or I think I would think he never planned to be with me for real & just wound up with me by default. But I did believe him & I still want to believe in him.

 

The problem is that it's not in my nature at all to be patient. He knows this & I know this & I am trying my best but it is definitely hard. He said our last go-around was different & I think he was talking about what you say in your post - I was more level-headed, collected & cool about things; I had accepted the situation for what it was & knew exactly what I was doing & why. I was giving him everything for the first time ever & really believing in us, knowing that if we end up together it would be worth it & if we don't then I can walk away knowing I gave it my all; I will have closure. I am still trying to do that even though the situation totally changed & I am not nearly so happy with it at face value. I am still believing that we will work out & that there is a reason for all of this but I can't help but have doubts when he acts like he wants to go back home & he is unsure.

 

He also always says he can't believe how long we've been together & how far we've come, & how everything has stayed so intense. It's true, from the beginning until now, if there is one word to describe us it would be intense, amazing passion. Okay, that's three words, oops. But that's what it is. And I hope it will be enough to carry us through. Despite both of us thinking we should get out, & me actually getting out several times, we are still here, & I do think that counts for something. I think that he needs to shape up & decide what he wants & come up with a plan but I'm willing to give him some more time to do that . . . since I obviously was when he was still living at home, & now things just got super shaken up.

 

I think the moral of today's posts is that I am getting frustrated & unsure but I am not ready to walk away. I am trying to find a balance between being there for him & also not letting myself be walked all over. And now I will try to stay 'cool' as you put it. And continue to learn the value of patience . . . which is definitely a learning experience for me! I couldn't agree more with the last line of your post . . . it has been the driving force behind being with him for the last two months or so. I am going to be fine with or without him, one way or the other, but I have to give this my all before I can take off & leave him in my rear-view mirror [if I must].

[DCMNW]

I just always feel hit hard with the thought that, as you say, I am his back-up [or his wife is his back-up; it alternates]. That is not a good feeling but I guess I'm allowing it by sticking around . . . my only other choice is to pressure him [which won't work] or to leave him altogether, or to just hang on & wait & see what happens. Not forever but for a little while until his head stops spinning.

 

Your MM sounds similar to my xMM. They won't be the ones to leave. The W calls all the shots and will make the final decision. My MM said he wasnt ready to walk away and lose his house, kids, money even if he was miserable at home. So basically we are waiting for the MM to make a decision, and the MM is waiting for the W to make a decision. Think about that, where do we fall in that line? And if the W decides to end it, sure he might come back to you but its only because you were the back up plan for him. Thats what I keep telling myself, even if it worked out in the end I think I would resent that. Always thinking the only reason he's with me is because his first choice left him? Not a good way to start a relationship...We deserve guys that CHOOSE to be with us, not that settle for being with us because someone else didnt work out.

[BB07]

You sound just like my sister. She says to run far & fast & that he is going to end up hurting me; she even thinks his wife will end up hurting me [not that I could blame her].

 

I don't think he will hurt me - every time I've walked away, he's put up a fight but he's let me; he hasn't done anything to harm me in any way once I said I needed out. [i suppose it could be different now that he feels unstable with his wife & could probably turn around & say 'but I left her for you & now you are leaving me . . .' when clearly he did not leave her, & not for me, but I'm sure this is how he might see it.] Regardless it does make me sad that he cannot give his all to me. That he can't choose me & go with that, or just let me know he has chosen his wife. That is all I've wanted but still I don't have it. Nor do I have all the good times of the affair. So yeah what am I doing? Just existing & waiting for him to make up his mind, which is dumb, which is why I kept asking if I don't deserve better . . . even though I do love him so much.

 

Just today at breakfast he told me that his wife said the only way she will take him back is on all of these conditions, & he doesn't think he could live that way, although he has thought about it for his kids' sake, but he knows he won't be happy that way, & he's also afraid of failing & messing things up again for the umpteenth time. I understand where he's coming from but I was just sitting there thinking that he's basically telling me he would go back home if it weren't for these conditions his wife was putting on him . . . I just always feel hit hard with the thought that, as you say, I am his back-up [or his wife is his back-up; it alternates]. That is not a good feeling but I guess I'm allowing it by sticking around . . . my only other choice is to pressure him [which won't work] or to leave him altogether, or to just hang on & wait & see what happens. Not forever but for a little while until his head stops spinning.

 

 

I realize that you've got to let this play out to a certain point but I'm afraid for you. It's just a big mess all the way around and it's not going to get better for a long, long time. He feels trapped, you feel trapped, it's just not good. You feel invested and you love the guy and now reality is hitting you both in the face. It's just a recipe for disaster and it was from the beginning. Honestly I don't see how you can maintain distance as everyone is telling you that you need to do, me included. I just don't think it's possible.

 

I'm afraid you will lose yourself in all the drama and how can you draw lines and say don't cross that one when the circumstances or your feelings or his feelings change every day. How are you going to keep your sanity and not drive yourself nuts? You have your own issues of insecurity created by the affair, you have your own doubts about him being trustworthy created by the affair, you don't even know that he truly wants to be with you. It's human nature to cling to those good feelings that are there when you are together but what about the rest of the time when you are alone and all the doubts come? He tells you to be patient but how long is a reasonable time for you to be patient without any action on his part?

 

I wish I could offer you something concrete to hang on it or I wish if I told you to walk away now that you would, but I know you won't.

[fooled once]

I'm going to share something with you. I tried to send you a PM but you couldn't receive. I've posted some about my H and my M here, but there's something I haven't shared.

 

My H is a recovering alcoholic. We've known each other 17+ years, dated when we were in our 20's. Then he went back to his home state and we remained close friends. We both met and married other people. Our spouses were well aware of our friendship. All the fun and romantic stuff and other details are posted in other posts here, but aren't relevant to this.

 

A couple of years ago, he filed for D from his then W and I had already D my exH. He came to see me. I knew he'd had a drinking problem, but I didn't know how bad it was until he came to see me. We talked frankly about it and he wanted to quit so we made an appt with my family doctor as a starting point. Long story short, he didn't want to do what the dr said so the next morning I put him on a plane back home.

 

He kept drinking and back and forth with his then W because she enabled his drinking (and I was drug into the middle of all the ensuing drama from it all) so I cut him out of my life. I told him I couldn't have anything to do with him while he was being so disrespectful to me (I'd told him not to call me when he was drunk) and I couldn't watch him kill himself. It was hard to do because we'd been very close for so many years, but I had to for my own self preservation.

 

Cutting him off woke him up and about 6 months later his D was finalized and he went through rehab and then went through a year of intensive counseling.

 

He contacted me when he was well on his road to recovery and we resumed our friendship. He told me he was going to do whatever it took to show me that he was serious about us being together...and he did. We married last October.

 

He still attends counseling and serves on the Board of Directors for our local AA chapter. He's serious about his recovery and serious about us. He didn't stop working on himself because he got what he wanted.

 

My point is that I could have "had" him a couple of years ago. And in all the years we'd been apart, I'd wanted nothing more than to be with him. But THAT was not the man I could have built a life with, no matter how much I loved him. Letting him go was the best thing I ever did because he turned his life around and now we have a very happy M and a good life together.

 

When I suggested that you step back in one of my posts to you, I meant it. It's time for you to figure out what you want and need from a relationship. Sometimes letting go of something we want is something we have to do to open the door to receive what we need.

 

Sad ((hugs)) wow - what a post! Thank you so much for sharing. You did what I believe so many OW are terrified to do - tell the guy to get his sh*t together and then let me know when you have and IF I am available, we can try to date. YOU did exactly the right thing - you handled it perfectly.

 

You put into words exactly what I think so many are trying to say to the OP here - stop enabling, stop making excuses and stop trying to direct/control the situation. Let him go - if he comes back - healthy and DIVORCED, then see where things go; but until that time - back off and let HIM deal with HIS stuff.

 

OP, I have been following your thread and all of your ups and downs and I feel for you. I just wanted to point out something. People keep givihg you great advice about backing away for a bit to get your head clear whle he is figuring things out. You keep posting that that is what you are doing when in fact, you are only doing it until he calls you or comes over and that is not at all detaching or backing away. I dont mean to be harsh but you have to be very real with yourself if you are to survive this mess and if you keep playing by his rules you will not do well.

 

It appears from what you ahve written that HE IS CALLING ALL OF THE SHOTS and you are reacting. For example, you write about feeling a certain way, that he's not respecting you etc and then you talk to him and come back on here and explain it away. Then you are hurt by something else, and you talk to him and you feel okay about it. But my point is, you are in reactive mode versus proactive. Take charge of YOU no matter what he does. He will be pulling away again, and you have no control over his moods but you do have control over you.

 

Someone pointed out that he seems to pull away everytime he talks to his wife and you said yourself he seems weird and blames you until he is with you and then he remembers how things are with you again and its all okay. That is not a secure position for you if he is so easily swayed and forgets your bond when he is not with you. Be careful and be PROACTIVE with your own life as you have control over you no matter who MM talks to or what he thinks.

 

You have received so much support and great suggestions just make sure you are taking them. Please know that i DO support you, i just felt compelled to post because your words arent always matching your actions. And to be honest, things are going to get much worse when he realizes this is very very real regarding losing his family. I think all of us here do not want to see you going through more hardship than you have to.

 

Great post!!!

 

26blue........After your last post, I've just got to chime in with what I've been thinking all along but I didn't want to be such a negative nilly but I'm going to be because I think you need to prepare yourself.

 

I think he is going to go back to his wife if she will let him because he is not done with his marriage. Some of the stuff he is going through is certainly explainable but some of it is not. I think he is blaming you and he resents you, yes it goes away when he is with you but when he is away from you, he feels pulled in another direction (toward his wife). To blame you shows his lack of direction and his inability to own up to what a mess he has created. Also......he didn't have a plan for when this day happened, if he was truly ready he would have had a plan. I think he is using you and his wife as back up plans because this guy doesn't have the courage or conviction to even know what he wants. I also think in a few months time that you aren't going to see much at all about him that was truly lovable.

 

I'm sorry to be so harsh but this man is not the right man for you and he is going to bring you down. I hope you get off this ride sooner than later.

 

Totally agree.

 

The mere fact that this guy is 'undecided' would be enough to send most people running and screaming. Nothing he says/does indicates 26pb is anything more than an option. The fact that he also just stated he isn't sure if he can meet his wife's demands on what needs to happen before he is allowed to return is a screaming red flag. The OP doesn't want to see it or acknowledge that. She wants to believe that they will be together. I do not see it happening.

 

His ACTIONS are stating he isn't done with his marriage.

He won't file for divorce

He is considering his wife's demands

He is mean and rude to the woman he claims to love.

He cancels plans.

He has made NO attempt to find his own place.

 

This guy isn't leaving his wife. He wants to figure out how to get back home AND keep the OW on the side.

[mtndew]

Through all of his mood swings, he is throwing up several red flags as everyone is pointing out. I know I told you to be patient, it is more for your sanity than his. However, pushing him for truth may get him to show his true colors. If he is a non-commital passive-aggressive type, the pressure sometimes brings out the truth. Good and bad.

 

As hard as it is, get on with YOUR business. I know he is your business, the business that which takes over almost all of your thoughts and affects your everyday action. Stay busy with the positive things in your life, like your friends, family, etc.

 

Someone is rattling the fence and he has to fall to one side of the other and now the clock is ticking til you find out the true MM.

[whichwayisup]

I know you're reading what everybody is saying and it's alot to take in.. So, in the next bunch of days, just take time to re-read and allow stuff to sink in.. We all mean well and only want what is best for you, reguardless of the outcome..That's out of your hands completely unless you end it now and walk away. Though that isn't something you want to do, I assume.

 

You said he isn't capable of hurting you (malciously) ofcourse not, but look how he's hurt you unintentionally and selfishly! This man is not one who is taking the lead and opportunity to actually LEAVE and DIVORCE. He is acting passively and doesn't want to be the bad guy. The thing is, in his wife's eyes and his children's eyes, his inlaw's eyes, maybe other family and some friends too, he IS the bad guy since he's been cheating and been caught afew times...Now his wife is ready to let go one minute and the next, she isn't. You have to know that HE is also having doubts as well. Sadly, I think he's trickling various truths to you, omitting certain details..Again, not malciously, but selfishly so no matter what, you'll be there for him/waiting for him if this all goes south.

 

It seems nothing in concrete and he hasn't made up his mind either way. That is not a good place for you to be in, and he HAS TO STOP making plans for the future and leading you on when deep down he doesn't know WHAT is going to happen.

 

You gotta disengage and detach. No sex, no going to dinner, no hanging out and being together. I mentioned this before, but any conversations should be on the phone and not in person. He can't continue a relationship/affair with you and try to figure WTF to do at home. IN his own way (i said this earlier too) he's being a big jerk to you, blaming you, having resentment towards you to put you off and make you back off on your own so he doesn't have to be the bad guy... Kind of a theme here, don't you think?

 

He needs to sh.it or get off the pot.

 

His family, friends, the kids, .. You two will have a real rough go if you do end up together. There's alot of hurt, betrayal and mistrust going on and this is why the "affair dynamic" has to stop completely and change. The only way to do that is to distance yourself and not BE his only confident, the one he runs to so he can feel better. I hope this makes sense to you.. By staying and "being there" for him all the time puts you still as the OW and the affair dynamic is alive.

 

I say this with care and respect, like BB,FO and others.. Noone wants to see your heart torn out and with him up and down like a toilet seat, it's unsettling and as of now, from what you've said and described, this is NOT a man who's "about to divorce" his wife. Someone mentioned he had no "plan", and now the crap has hit the fan, he is running all over the place, changing his mind, being moody and not sure of anything. To stay and put up with this confusion and drama is going to mess you up. How long can you hang on? Can you imagine this going on still by summer time? Do you intend on "waiting" like this until the end of the summer, or fall?

 

Maybe you need to set a deadline for yourself. I would HATE to see you still posting in 6 months that he still isn't really separated or on the way to a divorce.

[jwi71]

No, he hasn't filed for divorce. Sometimes he says he is waiting for his wife to file because it will be easier for her to move on if she is the one to file. Other times I realize he just isn't sure enough to file for divorce.

 

OH you gotta be kidding me. Did he REALLY say this?

He is waiting so it will be easier on her? Please tell me you slapped him for saying this and insulting your intelligence.

Do tell...when does it get EASIER for her - easier enough to file? Meanwhile, of course, you sit around waiting for HER life to be easier. Guess making it easy for YOU comes in BEHIND making it easy for her. Of course, YOUR FEELINGS have always played second fiddle to someone in this. This leads me to my NEXT question...

 

When do your feelings, wants and needs rank over his stbxw?

And do you really WANT to be with a man who has never made YOU number one? As far as I can tell...everyone seems to be coming in before you.

 

I have not met his extended family - now they know about me through his wife telling them & then him talking to them about me but I have never met them, doubt they would ever like me [my sister does not like him in my life - the rest of my family doesn't know about him but I know they wouldn't approve], and there have been no plans made for the holidays. That seems like forever from now because we are in the thick of things.

 

So this is still a secret. And no way HE was telling HIS family (looks like SHE did). So when was he going to reveal you to, well, his family?

 

And your family wouldn't like him. Not good. Are you certain you want to introduce such a divisive man into your family? Are you prepared to endure strained relations with YOUR FAMILY for a man who keeps putting you, the love of his life, behind everyone else? This has disaster written all over it.

 

Whenever we are talking about us as a couple in the future he says he envisions it happening but he is unsure about the mechanics of it & doesn't want to do things wrong & hurt his kids even more

 

Do things wrong? Well, a bit late to worry about that since this whole thing has destroyed their happy family life (from their view). The mother is blameless in their eyes and their father gets some but you get most of all (ime that is what happens). Sorry, they may be teens but they are in a world of shock and hurt. No minimizing that now. This, to me, is bullshyte. He is, I'm wagering, doing his level best to get back home - and you are the backup plan so he doesn't end up alone if his W files.

 

he also says things like his wife will use this & this against him to his kids & prevent him from ever seeing them

 

More bullcrap. This can be debunked in all of 15 seconds by his lawyer. The one he has right? The one he has consulted with right? That statement makes me think he has never even asked this burning important question to his lawyer. Makes me think he hasn't even gone. Couple that with his lame azz excuse for not filing...sorry, not seeing any steps to file...methinks he is desperately trying to weasel back in with his W.

 

It's like he looks at it in terms of staying together with the family or being shunned & hated by them

 

Yup. Because he wanted an AFFAIR not a DIVORCE. I know this because its what he CHOOSES. HE hasn't filed because he doesn't want to file. Period. Why? HE doesn't want to be D. He has NEVER, on his own volition, moved out and filed. HE moves out and crawls back home like some pathetic whipped puppy whose pizzed on the floor. I can almost promise that for every minute he spends with you, he spends an hour trying to get back home.

 

Just calling it the way I see it. Seen here a 1000 times. He is simply reading from the "MM playbook, chapter 6: when you get busted chapter".

 

Here's a GREAT question to ask him: If your W would take you back, would you return?

 

He'll say no of course.

 

The follow up Q is: If there is no hope of reconciling, why don't you file so as to MINIMIZE everyone's pain? Isn't that the best and kindest thing you can do in the situation by giving everyone finality? To prevent uncertainty and false hopes in your W, your children, in me?

 

He'll give you another lame azz excuse and then proceed to not file. As usual. I can say this because he has no real intention of filing. If he had, he would.

 

This, I'm sorry to say, will end very poorly for you - no matter what happens. I think you minimize your pain by walking. But its your choice.

[Carrot2000]

Just today at breakfast he told me that his wife said the only way she will take him back is on all of these conditions, & he doesn't think he could live that way, although he has thought about it for his kids' sake, but he knows he won't be happy that way, & he's also afraid of failing & messing things up again for the umpteenth time.

 

Wait a minute...he wants to be with you, but he's talking to wife about reconciling? Why is he even discussing the possibility of coming back if he's so unhappy in his marriage? Gurl, please pull back! This man is already speaking with a forked tongue.

 

It sounds like what he really wants is an affair and a marriage.

[Tinkerbell1]

Wow, awesome posts everyone. OP, you keep saying that you have to give it your all so you will know that you did everything you could. One question for you, why would you give your all to someone who isnt even giving half of himself to you?

 

NO question that he loves you, but he is not strong enough to go through "the mechanics" to make you boht a legitimate couple.

 

I think it would serve you much better to plan your exit as you have to, and start giving your all to rediscovering yourself. We tend to lose ourselves to these men, and its time you put your energy back where it belongs.

 

Hang in there.

[26pointblue]

Thanks to everyone. I know you are just trying to help. I feel like such a fool but I also feel that to leave him right now would be wrong, because I am the whole reason he got kicked out. [Yes, it was his decision to cheat with me].

 

To clarify a couple things, not that they make much of a difference at this juncture. He has moved out before without being kicked out. The caveat is that he only moved out because I left & he knew that's what it took to be with me. But then he didn't do anything further & so I left again, & after that he went back home. Sometimes I think if I had just given it more time & been more patient, it would have worked out back then. But it was killing me. Kind of like now. And he has started looking for a house to rent. I know that is different than actually renting one but I wouldn't say he hasn't done anything towards finding his own place. He's looked on Craigslist & gone to one that was being shown in an area he likes, but he said it was a dump. I didn't say anything but I'm sure he'd think anything was a dump compared to the nice house he's been living in for the last 20 years.

 

Last night he told me that he has to keep me undercover for awhile longer because his parents are so mad & disappointed in him & he doesn't want them to not like me forever. He also said he doesn't want to kick his wife when she's down. I don't see how anyone would ever accept us as a couple so while I don't think it's necessary to parade us out in front of his wife & family etc., I also don't think it's right to act like he is not seeing me when he is. I also don't think it's going to make a difference in terms of whether they ever like or at least accept me or not . .. I don't see how some time down the road he's going to be able to be like, 'oh, I'm back with the woman you guys hate, who I told you I was done with.' Another thing that has been bothering me along those same lines is that it was the lying & deception that got us here, that hurt so many people & him & me, & yet we are continuing to do that. I just don't want anyone to get further hurt. I told him this & he said the only other choice is to just not be with each other, & he said he will do that if I want, but he doesn't want it, that he wants to be with me & that's why he is still seeing me even though it's a risk to him. He also said everyone hates him & I'm the only person who accepts him, & that he needs me to support him in this. I just get so confused wondering how I'm supposed to support him when he is so all over the place when it comes to me & us. As one of you wisely pointed out, I keep giving him my all & he keeps not giving me his all, at all. I understand that's impossible under the circumstances but I don't want to be used.

[26pointblue]

Sad ((hugs)) wow - what a post! Thank you so much for sharing. You did what I believe so many OW are terrified to do - tell the guy to get his sh*t together and then let me know when you have and IF I am available, we can try to date. YOU did exactly the right thing - you handled it perfectly.

 

You put into words exactly what I think so many are trying to say to the OP here - stop enabling, stop making excuses and stop trying to direct/control the situation. Let him go - if he comes back - healthy and DIVORCED, then see where things go; but until that time - back off and let HIM deal with HIS stuff.

 

This sounds great in theory but I just don't think it's very realistic in my case, or maybe all OWs case with a separated MM. We have been in love for a year. You don't just walk out on someone you love because times get really tough. You at least have to give it a fight. I admit I don't know where the breaking point is & it can't go on like that forever but it isn't natural at all to just walk away from someone you love. I see that the end is on the horizon one way or the other & I don't want to leave before I find out what happens. I also have many fantastic memories of MM & me during the affair & even in these last few days when things are horribly crappy, we have a lot of special moments & love. So it's really hard to just put that up on some shelf & think 'maybe I'll pick this back up later if everything turns out well.' I just can't do that - for me this is make it or break it time. I will stay with him until I just can't do it anymore & then I will be done for good. I need this closure. He knows this.