LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 What deep seated issues do you think would stem from the lack of success. I guess lack of self esteem and confidence would be two of them right? But I was thinking, could there be any other issues? I suppose sexual issues as well.
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 What deep seated issues do you think would stem from the lack of success. I guess lack of self esteem and confidence would be two of them right? But I was thinking, could there be any other issues? Yeah those two. Also hidden resentment (even if fleeting), some guys get a martyr's or victim's complex, for guys who otherwise find nothing wrong with their lives (i.e. they've got friends, a job etc.) they have a constant struggle between feeling desperate but also feeling like they could get a really nice, cute girl if only they could figure out what they were doing wrong (i.e. not wanting to "settle"). Feelings of emasculation that make guys much more hesitant to go out and approach or talk to women they're attracted to interested in. I'm sure there are more issues, and these are not uniform, some guys don't have all of these issues but many do.
Ross PK Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah those two. Also hidden resentment (even if fleeting), some guys get a martyr's or victim's complex, for guys who otherwise find nothing wrong with their lives (i.e. they've got friends, a job etc.) they have a constant struggle between feeling desperate but also feeling like they could get a really nice, cute girl if only they could figure out what they were doing wrong (i.e. not wanting to "settle"). Feelings of emasculation that make guys much more hesitant to go out and approach or talk to women they're attracted to interested in. I'm sure there are more issues, and these are not uniform, some guys don't have all of these issues but many do. I forgot, there's misogyny too. Although I'm not like that myself, and I can't really understand why the lack of success can make a lot of guys that way, as it's obviously not the fault of women.
Taramere Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Not so sure if it is embraced by the left. I am sure the 'anything goes' 'socialists' of Labour embrace it, as a sort of way for women to liberate themselves. Not so sure if proper socialists and feminists are all that positive about the porn industry. Noam Chomsky isn't. Feminists...well, I suppose there's the pro-porn feminist movement which sought to distance itself from Andrea Dworkin. Men or women do not 'liberate' themselves as models, porn stars, corporate lawyers, or environmentalists. Rather people becomes increasingly entrapped in irrational logic. I've mentioned a few times, in these debates, a Channel 4 documentary I saw years back. In it, the notorious Max Hardcore is bullying an actress into doing a scene she doesn't want to do. Here are two clips. The first clip is the lead up to her working with Max Hardcore and the views of her agent who has talked her into meeting Hardcore. Here you see her running off set. Hardcore follows her and initially tries to soft-speak her into returning on set. Then he switches up a gear..."are you a good person?", telling her that she's letting people down - and bringing her maternal responsibilities towards her kid in it. There's the irrational logic you're talking about. As though doing that scene she is terrified and disgusted about is in her child's best interests. Finally he resorts to just being openly abusive and bullying. Given that he behaved like that in front of a documentary crew, you have to wonder how he normally treats unwilling actresses who is on her own with nobody to advocate for her (the documentary crew decide to remove her from the premises when she does finally agree to do the scene, because they're concerned about the issue of consent).
Linda9999 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I wonder, what did men do before there was porn? Or has there always been porn in one form or another? Did cave men used to have 'porn caves' they could go to and whack off?
LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I wonder, what did men do before there was porn? Or has there always been porn in one form or another? Did cave men used to have 'porn caves' they could go to and whack off? No, I believe they were all buffing the same women. It was a constant porn movie in itself.
BeginAgain Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I wonder, what did men do before there was porn? Or has there always been porn in one form or another? Did cave men used to have 'porn caves' they could go to and whack off? Erotic art has probably always existed. In the ancient world men owned slave girls. Like in Ancient Greece there was a part of the house for male only drinking parties called symposiums where they would have 14 year old slave girls pour wine, play instruments, and provide sexual pleasures. Personally I don't have a problem with enjoying the erotic talents of wine girls, harp girls, and flute girls.
Ross PK Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Erotic art has probably always existed. In the ancient world men owned slave girls. Like in Ancient Greece there was a part of the house for male only drinking parties called symposiums where they would have 14 year old slave girls pour wine, play instruments, and provide sexual pleasures. Personally I don't have a problem with enjoying the erotic talents of wine girls, harp girls, and flute girls. Even if they're 14?
lizwashere Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Erotic art has probably always existed. In the ancient world men owned slave girls. Like in Ancient Greece there was a part of the house for male only drinking parties called symposiums where they would have 14 year old slave girls pour wine, play instruments, and provide sexual pleasures. Personally I don't have a problem with enjoying the erotic talents of wine girls, harp girls, and flute girls. Pornography as we know it is a modern invention - yes erotic images have been around since the dawn of time, but the current porn industry is a byproduct of a wealthy, industrialized, technically advanced society where people have a lot of leisure time. Do you honestly believe that in places like Africa, Asia and other parts of the world where most people still work on the land and live off the land in what are essentially proto-industrial societies that people are obsessing over pornography? No, they're concerned with basic subsistence, with providing food and water for their families, with surviving civil wars and genocide. Spending endless hours a week j****** off to online porn doesn't rank high on the list of important things in life under those types of circumstances. Edited April 5, 2011 by lizwashere
Linda9999 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I'm not talking about real live women available for sex whenever they wanted. I'm talking about purely visual stimulation. So many men seem to think that porn is OK because 'men are visual creatures' and other such arguments. I am wondering if porn - PICTURES - is something men have always had available. Or is it a product of a monogamous society?
BeginAgain Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Even if they're 14?If there weren't laws against it I wouldn't care. Many times I can't tell the difference. Like that Rebecca Black from the Friday song I thought she was in her late teens but she is only in junior high school. Pornography as we know it is a modern invention - yes erotic images have been around since the dawn of time, but the current porn industry is a byproduct of a wealthy, industrialized, technically advanced society where people have a lot of leisure time. Do you honestly believe that in places like Africa, Asia and other parts of the world where most people still work on the land and live off the land in what are essentially proto-industrial societies that people are obsessing over pornography? No, they're concerned with basic subsistence, with providing food and water for their families, with surviving civil wars and genocide. Spending endless hours a week j****** off to online porn doesn't rank high on the list of important things in life under those types of circumstances.That's because instead of jacking off they just **** and rape each other. That's why the incidence of hiv is so high, they have overpopulation issues, and there are so many rape stories out of Africa.
d'Arthez Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) I've mentioned a few times, in these debates, a Channel 4 documentary I saw years back. In it, the notorious Max Hardcore is bullying an actress into doing a scene she doesn't want to do. [...] Given that he behaved like that in front of a documentary crew, you have to wonder how he normally treats unwilling actresses who is on her own with nobody to advocate for her (the documentary crew decide to remove her from the premises when she does finally agree to do the scene, because they're concerned about the issue of consent). Of course not every porn producer is as misogynistic as Max Hardcore. Thankfully not. But these people are trapped, and as you point out, 'consent', as is required by law, becomes a murky concept. I was also referring to the end user of pornographic materials though. They also stand a risk of becoming entrapped in irrational rationality. Pornographic materials contain 'beautiful' people engaged in some form of sexual contact. Whether these beautiful people are skinny, fat, young, old, wearing stilettos or latex, is inconsequential: the viewer 'thinks' skinny, fat, young etc., is attractive in its own right. Something similar for the sexual content. Some people are turned on by the classical stuff, others want double penetrations, whips, rape scenes, scat or whatever grabs your fancy. The 'originality' of such beliefs are questionable though. A lot of people do think beauty is a physical attribute, in the eye of the (irrational?) beholder. Beauty is a judgment, and one we need to reaffirm from time to time. One we cannot separate from the whole person, even if we just 'love the looks'. A woman or a man can have great looks, but that in itself does not constitute porn. How true is it that women and men in porn are 'role models' because of what they do, rather than who they are and what they look like? These three different aspects (the roles, their (ascribed) personality and their looks) become increasingly entwined. This becomes extremely problematic when a desire to beauty takes over; when porn becomes an addiction, or alternatively when fantasies become an essential part of a real life relationship. When beauty becomes Jenna Jameson, Sasha Grey, or whoever rocks one's boat. When you (as a man) desire to be Max Hardcore, or (as a woman) to be dominated like one of those actresses. I would not be surprised that the men who watch Max Hardcore's movies, because they like the materials, have a desire to live their lives just like him, at least in the materials he produces. I would not be surprised that the women who like these materials have similar desires to be psychologically and physically dominated. The latter is far less likely to give rise to issues in a relationship, than the former, purely because of existent social roles and conditioning. Edited April 5, 2011 by d'Arthez
PJKino Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Look, I know you mean well but this kind of advice (though accurate and well meaning) is not likely to help. Guys who don't have much luck with women have deep rooted issues stemming from their lack of success that are not likely to be solved by going to a coffee shop, or by doing volunteer work. It's about as useful as Brad Stevens telling Butler that they needed to go and make some baskets last night against UConn, it's great advice, if only they could go out and do it. Exactly..People who have at least some sucess in attracting the opposite sex think just giving some fluff cliche will change that persons life or do what they did and its just not reality.. Some of us just cant attract the opposite sex and because of thats it takes a toll on you mentally to where you just dont evne have the energy to try anymore because you feel so unwanted.
Crusoe Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Men or women do not 'liberate' themselves as models, porn stars, corporate lawyers, or environmentalists. Rather people becomes increasingly entrapped in irrational logic. There is nothing wrong with being appreciative of whatever one terms as 'beauty'; beauty is elusive, for it cannot be possessed. Porn feeds us illusions to the contrary. "They told me to take a streetcar named Desire, then transfer to one called Cemeteries..." Magic and illusion played over ugly reality.
Author Woggle Posted April 5, 2011 Author Posted April 5, 2011 Pornography as we know it is a modern invention - yes erotic images have been around since the dawn of time, but the current porn industry is a byproduct of a wealthy, industrialized, technically advanced society where people have a lot of leisure time. Do you honestly believe that in places like Africa, Asia and other parts of the world where most people still work on the land and live off the land in what are essentially proto-industrial societies that people are obsessing over pornography? No, they're concerned with basic subsistence, with providing food and water for their families, with surviving civil wars and genocide. Spending endless hours a week j****** off to online porn doesn't rank high on the list of important things in life under those types of circumstances. Have you ever seen Japanese porn? It is some of the sickest and most bizarre stuff you can imagine.
tincanman99 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Speaking as a guy I think porn messes up your brain in a huge way. It becomes way too easy to retreat into a fake reality instead of dealing with the real world. This is a LOT more common than people realize. Years ago porn was not as readily available as it is now. When I was a kid about the only thing around was Playboy and you were lucky if you saw it at all. Some people had films but it was a rarity. I never saw hard core porn till I was in college. But today its available at the click of a mouse. INSTANTLY. I have read that somewhere between 1/2 to 2/3 of the traffic on the web is related to porn. I would bet this is a pretty accurate number. Dont want to talk to her - spank it to porn, dont want to deal with her emotions - spank it to pron, dont want to know to make sure she that gets hers as you are selfish - spank it to porn. Porn IS a replacement for real people. I have read numerous articles where young guys prefer it to the real thing. Why? Because they dont have to deal with HER. They can be selfish and focus on THEMSELVES. The technology is helping people isolate themselves from everyone. Personally I try to stay away from it as its a huge time waster and you can easily spend hours on there instead of doing productive things. For all the guys in this thread that think this is all hocus pocus, do a search for "your brain on porn" in google. There is a web site from a researcher and he explains exactly what happens. If you are using it, stop TODAY. You will be thankful you did. I think its very destructive.
Author Woggle Posted April 5, 2011 Author Posted April 5, 2011 Max Hardcore is pure scum but Hugh Hefner does not strike me as somebody that abuses women.
Taramere Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Of course not every porn producer is as misogynistic as Max Hardcore. Thankfully not. But these people are trapped' date=' and as you point out, 'consent', as is required by law, becomes a murky concept. [/quote'] I agree re the misogyny. He's supposed to be pretty unpopular in the industry - though that might have more to do with his exploits creating problems for other directors than stemming from empathy towards the girls. I doubt there's much empathy going around in that business. Studies show that porn viewing has a desensitising effect on the viewer whereby they become less inclined to empathise with rape victims - or, indeed, to view rape as the serious crime that the criminal law treats it as (Donnerstein and Berkowitz, 1981; Malamuth, 1978 and others). I think low empathy levels go hand in hand with the belief that it's acceptable to coerce (with emotionally and verbal abuse) another person into having sex. I've visited - though not contributed to - some message boards where that's very common groupthink. It's a pretty sociopathic perspective, but if people keep telling eachother that it's an okay one then eventually that belief probably sinks in. I was also referring to the end user of pornographic materials though. They also stand a risk of becoming entrapped in irrational rationality. Such as a belief that because they enjoy films depicting pretty girls being treated abusively, it must follow that pretty girls like to be treated abusively. A woman or a man can have great looks, but that in itself does not constitute porn. How true is it that women and men in porn are 'role models' because of what they do, rather than who they are and what they look like? I think with the women, they're often role models because the ones who are pushed into the eye of the mainstream seem successful. They seem to have worked it to their advantage to a point where they've almost attained equality with men. Some even going behind the camera and directing scenes that are as abusive as scenes any man would film. Like you said earlier, it's capitalism in its rawest form. Some go into it because they need money in a hurry and maybe there's no other way of getting it. It probably feels - and probably is - safer than working as a hooker on the street. Others maybe have their eye on the so-called success stories who are presented as "porn stars". The Vivid girls who are looked after. Maybe influenced by that image of a porn star, some girls go into it thinking that they'll be smart, work the system to their advantage and be on the right side of the power imbalance. I would not be surprised that the men who watch Max Hardcore's movies, because they like the materials, have a desire to live their lives just like him, at least in the materials he produces. I would not be surprised that the women who like these materials have similar desires to be psychologically and physically dominated. My instinct would be that women who like those extreme materials probably have quite strong sadistic tendencies. Then again, masochism and sadism are two sides of the same coin.
Taramere Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Max Hardcore is pure scum but Hugh Hefner does not strike me as somebody that abuses women. I agree. I think Hugh Hefner is old school. I remember reading that he insisted on Playboy being fairly carefully edited for violence, and he's done a fair bit for charity I believe. Also, Playboy would deal with all sorts of issues other than just sex - thereby encouraging a more broad-minded approach ....but I think publications like that are probably losing out to the nasty stuff in this day and age.
lizwashere Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Max Hardcore is pure scum but Hugh Hefner does not strike me as somebody that abuses women. Whenever I see Hugh these days I get the sense that he's just happy someone remembered to dress him and helped him put on his shoes.
d'Arthez Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I think low empathy levels go hand in hand with the belief that it's acceptable to coerce (with emotionally and verbal abuse) another person into having sex. Probably true, but we must not forget that developments in society suggest that empathy is probably on the decline and "assertiveness" is on the increase. And assertiveness, sadly is often a nice cover for sociopathy. It is also true that we tend to make a commodity out of everything these days, far more so than 20 or 40 years ago. Depending on where you are, money can talk far more effectively than emotional and verbal abuse. This is also a form of sociopathy, but it is quite socially accepted. Mutually beneficial abuse is still abuse though. Even if it is legally permissible, that does not in any way mean it cannot have adverse effects on the psychological well-being of the people involved. But in capitalism? Anything goes. And that may be the biggest problem.
highviolet Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 If there weren't laws against it I wouldn't care. Many times I can't tell the difference. Like that Rebecca Black from the Friday song I thought she was in her late teens but she is only in junior high school. Hey jacka** those laws are made becasue a 14 year old girl is not mentally and emotionally capable of making the choice to have sex, not because her body isn't physically mature. That's why it's called statutory RAPE.
iris219 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 My answer is not going to be popular among the porn watchers. This is why I think women (and men) SHOULD be against porn: because it is VERY disturbing when men view women not as human beings, but purely as sexual objects. Objectification is NEVER OK. It is completely disempowering for women to be viewed this way. This is what porn allows. Do you ever think of these porn actresses as real women? Do you think about what their lives are like and how they feel about doing porn? Do you ever wonder if there’s drug use or sexual abuse in their past or present? Little girls do not grow up hoping men will jack off to them having sex on camera. If you’ve never considered this, you are able to compartmentalize to a point I find dangerous. Indifference is very worrisome. Porn is one facet of society that normalizes sexual violence (not causes it, but creates an environment where sexual violence is not surprising to us.) What if I came on here and said I get turned on when I take all power away from men? What if I said I liked to think of men in an entirely sexual manner, and no other way? THAT is what porn does to women. For the record, I know not all men watch porn. I have male friends who don’t (and some who do). I’ve had 4 serious boyfriends: 3 of them had zero interest in porn.
Ross PK Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 Personally I try to stay away from it as its a huge time waster and you can easily spend hours on there instead of doing productive things. How is your time being wasted if you are enjoying yourself? Why is being productive all the time so important?
Ross PK Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 My answer is not going to be popular among the porn watchers. This is why I think women (and men) SHOULD be against porn: because it is VERY disturbing when men view women not as human beings, but purely as sexual objects. Objectification is NEVER OK. It is completely disempowering for women to be viewed this way. This is what porn allows. Do you ever think of these porn actresses as real women? Do you think about what their lives are like and how they feel about doing porn? Do you ever wonder if there’s drug use or sexual abuse in their past or present? Little girls do not grow up hoping men will jack off to them having sex on camera. If you’ve never considered this, you are able to compartmentalize to a point I find dangerous. Indifference is very worrisome. Porn is one facet of society that normalizes sexual violence (not causes it, but creates an environment where sexual violence is not surprising to us.) What if I came on here and said I get turned on when I take all power away from men? What if I said I liked to think of men in an entirely sexual manner, and no other way? THAT is what porn does to women. For the record, I know not all men watch porn. I have male friends who don’t (and some who do). I’ve had 4 serious boyfriends: 3 of them had zero interest in porn. What do you mean as seeing a woman as a sexual object? Why would I think about what a woman in a porn film is like in real life? The majority of the time I don't do this with men or women in TV shows or films. I think most people are like this. I would think it's wrong that you take power away from men. Whether you get turned on or not wouldn't make any difference. Men who watch porn don't think of all women in an entirely sexual manner and no other way all of the time.
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