Dust Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 If it semantics I fail to see why this all has you so worried. I think with time you’ll hopefully mature and see all the problems you are creating. Having a gf with a good family and a good job are all good things. You need to speak up for yourself and stop expecting her to do it for you. Also I’m just curious is there a reason you ignore everything every one has told you? You really seem to hate yourself.
Chocolat Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 VS, first and foremost, you need to solve the interview problem. Practice your elevator speech, join Toastmasters, hire a coach... Do whatever it takes. You're never going to land the jobs you want if you can't clear this hurdle. Second, recognize that your manhood is not tied to how often you pay for dinner. In fact, if the roles were reversed and your gf was out on her own while you lived at home and had $3k/month to spend, we'd all be telling you to pay more. Letting your gf carry her weight does not translate to you being an un-fun bf. I have always pulled my weight in my relationships, regardless whether I made more or less than my bfs. If I had the luxury of living at home while my bf was paying his own way I would want to pay more... and I would likely suggest many more low- or no-cost dates. The way you describe your gf's approach sounds like subtle pressure that you are hearing loud and clear. Address it. It seems to me that there is recurring theme in your posts about your gf to the effect that you are not as "good" as she is. I doubt this is objectively true and it is an incredibly unhealthy way for you to think.
Kamille Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 This: Roll yourself back to $500 - $600/month, saving the $200 - 300 for potential emergencies and investment. Let her know that you're going to have to cut back by x percentage and that your activities will have to be curtailed by doing a less expensive activity. If she really loves you, she won't mind. Going out for expensive dinners all the time isn't even close to being a necessity. Caution: maybe you already know all this, but in case you don't: It sounds like what you might need for peace of mind is emergency savings. Emergency savings can be calculated different ways: 1) 3 month's salary or 2) an estimate of how much you would need to cover 3 months of basic necessities (rent, food, loans, etc.). Right now I'm working towards saving for one month's necessities, then will switch to two necessities until I have reached 3 month's salary. Once you have saved enough for emergencies, you can either divert the money to investments, or put it back into your cash flow. Having this money saved will give you piece of mind. Figure out how much you need to save, long you want to give yourself to get there and how much you need to put aside every month. Once you have that number, subtract it from your cash flow and you now know wether or not you can truly buy something. Be upfront with your gf about the fact that you're currently investing in emergency savings. No woman in their right mind would frown at the thought that their partner is fiscally responsible. Start accepting her offers to pay more often. Remind yourself this is temporary - and that it in no way emasculates you. When you can, and when you feel like it, take her out for a good time, all expenses paid. Other question: when will you be done paying your student loans? Again, once you're done, that will be extra money you can revert to your cash flow or invest.
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 VS, The way your GF approaches this situation strikes me as condescending more than a feeling of genuine caring. It's like she is scaling back to compensate for you rather than doing what she wants and offering to help you out. I see lots of women like that. I think how a woman spends money on you means a lot. If she seems stingy... she isn't that into you.
Kelemort Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 First, I'd like to apologize for the fact that you had an abusive upbringing (given the sorts of relationship problems here, I don't think it's all too uncommon). No doubt that has shaped the person you are - but despite that, you attended an Ivy League school and made something out of yourself! You may have financial difficulties, but as you put it, you're able to make a go of your bills. I admit I've also felt envious of my boyfriend's upbringing at times - we both came from a similar socioeconomic background, but his family was much more loving, gentle and supportive than my own (his parents and grandparents are also significantly higher-earning than my parents). I grew up with a narcissistic mother, and the family dynamic has always been hyper-focused around her and her every need and whim. What helped me was not to sit there, fume and be jealous over his good fortunes - not to sit there and pine away with thoughts of, "What did I do to deserve this while he got all of the luck?" - but to recognize that despite where I came from, I was blending my life with somebody who did not face the same difficulties as me. Because when it comes down to it, growing up in an abusive household can cause a lot of problems - and having two folks dealing with that in a relationship is tantamount to suicide. You've been dating this girl for a year. It's time to knock down some barriers and be frank with her. You may not want her in all of your finances, but it may do you well to say, "Lisa, I wish that I could buy you everything you want. But I'm struggling financially, and I wanted to see if we could split some of the costs when we go out." And when she offers to pay, ACCEPT IT. Alternatively, instead of bringing up the discussion with her, offer to cook at home. If she persists on going out, say, "I need to pay for x this month - and cooking at home is cheaper." I wish there were an easy answer as to why some are so fortunate and lucky and some are so unfortunate.
threebyfate Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Vertex, I've steered clear of this aspect but it's something to seriously consider. Your g/f isn't your competition and neither is anyone else when it comes to personal issues. Measure yourself against your own goals, being patient about getting there, where you try to take advantage of any opportunities when you see one. Straight up, now's not the time to be job hunting in your industry without a being a known commodity or network of people who decision make when it comes to hiring.
TheBigQuestion Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 I grew up 5 miles west of NYC. I'm the same age as you too. I have advice for you if you want to save money: move the HELL out of that place. Plenty of people I grew up with and went to college with made the misguided decision of trying to live in NYC/Brooklyn. They did it primarily because they are hipster morons with no identities of their own, but that's another matter. All of them, no matter what their income bracket, have the same exact anxiety about finances that you do. It's simply what living there does to a person. New York is a fantastic place to work and a fantastic place to visit from time to time. I guarantee you that you do NOT need to live in the city. Even the most expensive commute from NJ to NYC will be far less than all the costs you accumulate living in the city.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 One of my exes overspent early on, because he thought it would impress me. Sure, him splashing out on us was nice, but I wouldn't have loved him any less if we'd done less lavish things. A while into the relationship, he told me he wanted to buckle down financially and stick to a pretty frugal budget. It didn't get in the way of my feelings for him. In fact, I respected him more for being prudent with money. And we both came up with many creative ways to have zingy dates on a shoestring. A simple homemade picnic lunch with a $10 bottle of wine in a beautiful setting can be very romantic. I think you need to look at your finances from your own individual perspective, completely separate from the "lifestyle" you think your girlfriend wants, and make some budgeting decisions based on where you want to be in a year, in a few years. If she loses interest in you because you are being financially responsible, you just don't need her.
Author VertexSquared Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 Kamille: Thanks for the advice -- currently I'm aiming for a year-buffer. Which is to say, if I lost my job today, I'd want to be able to afford a year's worth of expenses without immediate worry so I could have plenty of time to find new work. It may take me a while to get there, however. I say a year because I am so bad at interviews that it would take me arguably longer to land something. That's an estimated downside scenario, however -- but it's a downside I currently can't hedge or absorb. As for my loans, about 10 years. But I'd like to get rid of them ASAP because they really are huge drains on my disposable income. If not for loans, I wouldn't be worrying so much about everything now. Untouchable_Fire: I'm not sure -- I think an argument could be made either way. Kelemort: Thanks. I know she'd probably say OK and pay if I, for instance, asked her to pay for most of our upcoming trip. The problem is I feel awful doing that and I don't want that to become a habit. I think, in large part, my upbringing has instilled in me a sense of helplessness. I have a really hard time asking for things I want because I'm used to hearing "no" or I'm afraid of what will happen if I stand my ground. I'm not sure where the optimal point is along that sliding scale. It's certainly not where my current mode of action resides, but I don't know how far from the status quo here is acceptable or appropriate. threebyfate: While I know she isn't my competition, I can't help but compare. When I measure myself against my own goals I feel equally upset. My goals have almost always been "stand out and do things better." Be ahead of the game -- be in a stronger, safer position. Do things healthier -- think critically, etc. I always strove for the top as my ticket to freedom and it's just crushing to me that despite my efforts, countless others will just float on by effortlessly because they had a firmer foundation to stand on. I just feel helpless and I feel like I can't keep up. Every month that goes by I just think of the thousands that my girlfriend is able to save up and how she just isn't going to ever be able to really empathize with what it feels like to have relatively smaller margin. If you've saved up a $10k margin over a couple months, spending $300 on a splurgy dinner or buying a $500 camera isn't a huge deal. But to someone like me, I'd have to really assess those expenditures because incurring them. In large part, I think a lot of it is cultural, too. I am white and my girlfriend is Asian. Her family is very supportive and very successful in terms of education (almost everyone in her family is a college grad, whereas nobody in mine is. They're all decked out with law, science, dentistry, doctor, and business degrees), and so I think my education has given me a boost in their eyes. If they knew I was actually some struggling kid with no family, I feel like they'd look at me with pity and shame. I don't want to be viewed that way. TBQ: Yeah I will likely move out of Manhattan in the future. Ruby: I don't think she would give me a hard time for wanting to be frugal. I just suspect that she'd start to love me less and find our relationship taking a boring nosedive because I'd always be inclined to hold back whereas she might want to have fun (be it a restaurant or weekend trip).
Kamille Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Ruby: I don't think she would give me a hard time for wanting to be frugal. I just suspect that she'd start to love me less and find our relationship taking a boring nosedive because I'd always be inclined to hold back whereas she might want to have fun (be it a restaurant or weekend trip). You've brought this scenario up a few times. I think it shows you're still trying to impress her, which, without wanting to trivialize, I find really sweet. I have to wonder, however, if she has given you any indications that she would react this way. Is this impression coming from her actions or from your own feeling of insecurity? If from her actions, then you need to question whether you two are incompatible. If from your insecurities, then you need to ease yourself into asserting your financial boundaries. Step one is simply to accept her offer to chip in the next time she offers. And, if I may, I think you could also interview and be upfront about the fact that you're the kind of guy who comes up with the answer before he can explain out loud how he got to that answer. Get comfortable with being the guy who is silent as he thinks through his answers. Give yourself that time, free of pressure. The best strategies are often to embrace what makes you unique. Strong silent types are all the rage... Or haven't you seen mad men?
pandagirl Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Vertex, you know I live in NYC, too. I'm a bit older than you, and I have friends who make good money, and even we don't live a lifestyle where we spend hundreds of dollars on dinner. I think it's a very NYC stereotype that this is how "you're supposed to live." Yes, NYC is expensive, but only if you make it. There are tons of things to do here that don't cost that much money: go to the open galleries, museums, indie concerts, especially now that the weather is getting nice, there will be so much fun, FREE stuff to do! Don't live outside your means. Up until I was 28, I made under $45k, and I totally managed to do whatever I wanted living here. That being said, almost everyone I know struggles with money here, but you just figure out what works for you. That being said, if your girlfriend loves you less because you cut back on expenses, then she didn't really love you in the first place. If my boyfriend was in your situation, I would GLADLY help him in his efforts to save money. I'd see it as an opportunity to learn how to cook together, get creative with our activities, etc.
BeginAgain Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 If she is young and kind of attractive she won't waste her time on a guy with apparent financial difficulties. She'll move on to greener pastures. If he has this talk it will become finally crystal clear money doesn't fall from the sky and the good ship lollipop has finally anchored. She'll take that opportunity to disembark and climb aboard another man's vessel. If you think there are exceptions to the rules there aren't many and even with those exceptions it will just take longer for her to get fed up. Then you are back to the same situation. Women don't like to be honest about this but when a man loses part of his status in her eyes she's immediately shopping for a new guy.
Nexus One Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) First of all, just drop the being jealous of your girlfriend part, don't begrudge the fact that she's better off. Like other people said, she can't help being born into her situation as much as you do. Even if she doesn't fully realize how tough your background was, then that's not something you can blame her for. I see only 3 ways out of your situation. 1. Cut costs. Pay off those loans hardcore style, pay them off faster than they want you to if possible. Also, I'm guessing you live in one of those $2000 mini apartments in Manhattan. I never understood why people would pour their money into rent in the first place, let alone 2k for those tiny apartments. If you look at the other boroughs you will see that you can BUY small apartments for 100k USD. That means once that apartment is paid off, then you don't have to pay mortgage or rent anymore. In NYC you can relatively easily get jobs that allow you to buy such an apartment after saving for let's say two years. You then will not even have needed a mortgage to do so. 2. But getting such a job would require you to do job interviews. I know it's not easy, but you need to push yourself through it and go for those jobs. Once you have a 50k+ job you can solve all of your problems in 3 years or less, depending on the wage scale you'll be targeting when job hunting. 3. Start your own company, start offering your services in the form of a company. I'm not sure how much spare time you have to do this, but you can try nevertheless. Edited April 4, 2011 by Nexus One
Dust Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Kamille: Thanks for the advice -- currently I'm aiming for a year-buffer. Which is to say, if I lost my job today, I'd want to be able to afford a year's worth of expenses without immediate worry so I could have plenty of time to find new work. It may take me a while to get there, however. I say a year because I am so bad at interviews that it would take me arguably longer to land something. That's an estimated downside scenario, however -- but it's a downside I currently can't hedge or absorb. As for my loans, about 10 years. But I'd like to get rid of them ASAP because they really are huge drains on my disposable income. If not for loans, I wouldn't be worrying so much about everything now. Untouchable_Fire: I'm not sure -- I think an argument could be made either way. Kelemort: Thanks. I know she'd probably say OK and pay if I, for instance, asked her to pay for most of our upcoming trip. The problem is I feel awful doing that and I don't want that to become a habit. I think, in large part, my upbringing has instilled in me a sense of helplessness. I have a really hard time asking for things I want because I'm used to hearing "no" or I'm afraid of what will happen if I stand my ground. I'm not sure where the optimal point is along that sliding scale. It's certainly not where my current mode of action resides, but I don't know how far from the status quo here is acceptable or appropriate. threebyfate: While I know she isn't my competition, I can't help but compare. When I measure myself against my own goals I feel equally upset. My goals have almost always been "stand out and do things better." Be ahead of the game -- be in a stronger, safer position. Do things healthier -- think critically, etc. I always strove for the top as my ticket to freedom and it's just crushing to me that despite my efforts, countless others will just float on by effortlessly because they had a firmer foundation to stand on. I just feel helpless and I feel like I can't keep up. Every month that goes by I just think of the thousands that my girlfriend is able to save up and how she just isn't going to ever be able to really empathize with what it feels like to have relatively smaller margin. If you've saved up a $10k margin over a couple months, spending $300 on a splurgy dinner or buying a $500 camera isn't a huge deal. But to someone like me, I'd have to really assess those expenditures because incurring them. In large part, I think a lot of it is cultural, too. I am white and my girlfriend is Asian. Her family is very supportive and very successful in terms of education (almost everyone in her family is a college grad, whereas nobody in mine is. They're all decked out with law, science, dentistry, doctor, and business degrees), and so I think my education has given me a boost in their eyes. If they knew I was actually some struggling kid with no family, I feel like they'd look at me with pity and shame. I don't want to be viewed that way. TBQ: Yeah I will likely move out of Manhattan in the future. Ruby: I don't think she would give me a hard time for wanting to be frugal. I just suspect that she'd start to love me less and find our relationship taking a boring nosedive because I'd always be inclined to hold back whereas she might want to have fun (be it a restaurant or weekend trip). I see you’ve taken the time to respond to every one but me. I wonder if it’s out of some disrespect you feel toward me. Remember you only get what you put out. The same can be said about your relationship issues. Peace out Vertex
Author VertexSquared Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) pandagirl: She doesn't seem to love me any less, and she's been all for helping me shop for groceries or cooking together, etc. I just worry that these actions/words may be temporary and that she'll start to distance herself. You say you made $45k, but this doesn't mean much to me because it's just a gain and doesn't reflect loss. What were expenses like/what were savings like/what was disposable income like? Am I further ahead than I think I am or am I actually behind? To be fair, it's not like I'm *constantly* spending hundreds on dinner. It's just that even if we space out large dinners "every so often," it's still a fair portion of my disposable income. Nexus One: The problem is that even though I understand that, I simply *cannot help* but feel jealous. I don't know how to eliminate that nagging sentiment. 1. Trying, trying, trying. My apartment is over $5k but I share with three other roommates, so I pay something like $1400 per month including utilities. I can't exactly dump $100k for a house, though -- especially after two years, lol. I'm trying to move out of Manhattan soon to get cheaper rent. 2. I already make over 50k -- it's just that the expenses are really high. 3. Might be an interesting consideration, but I'm not sure how I'd actually go about doing this. Seems like it'd be a ton of work and I don't exactly have startup capital or easy access to any. I'd have to start some sort of personalized service like SAT tutoring or something. Dust: I read your posts -- sorry for not responding. I just disagree with your outlook on life, is all. I feel like you absolutely have to plan for the what-ifs because what-ifs happen all the time. We just don't know which forms they'll take on. I agree that a good family is an asset. I just feel jealous that I lack one of my own. Edited April 4, 2011 by VertexSquared
Nexus One Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Then move out of Manhattan quickly and get a mortgage for one of those 100K apartments just outside of Manhattan, problem solved. For a 30 year 100K mortgage you'll be paying less than $600 a month, so you will have slashed your monthly costs by $800 that way and you'll end up owning the apartment, but even get rid of that mortgage after getting a better job and then DO dump 100k into a apartment so that you'll be mortgage free and rent free. Edited April 4, 2011 by Nexus One
threebyfate Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Vertex, you're all over the place so let's collect your thoughts by listing facts and potential solutions: Fact - You need a nest egg to feel comfortable. Solution - You'll have to accrue a nest egg. (The bolded is for emphasis since I personally feel you do have to do this.) Fact - You're spending too much to accrue that nest egg based on your existing salary and bills/rent. Solutions - You have to either reduce your expenditures by cutting back on expenses, whether it means to stop going for so many expensive dinners, stop paying for your g/f so much or find a way to reduce your rental expenses. Another alternative is to pursue a new job which pays more. But you're unwilling to do so since you're not a good interview. And frankly, now's a terrible time to do so within your industry unless you know someone who can get you in. Fact - You're concerned about losing your g/f if you stop spending money. Solution - Change your perspective and realize that if you lose someone over money, it's not much loss at all. Fact - You resent your g/f's easier lot in life with no expenses to speak of. Solution - Change your perspective and stop comparing yourself or being competitive with your SO.
Nexus One Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Start looking for an apartment in the other boroughs now, some are really close to Manhattan for only a fraction of the monthly costs of where you live now: http://bit.ly/g4XsT9 God forbid you lose your job, so I actually think you should seriously start looking for cheaper housing quickly, otherwise you'll be homeless in the case you lose your job. You shouldn't take that possibility lightly. At least now you can still take action to prevent that from happening in the future. Edited April 4, 2011 by Nexus One
Ruby Slippers Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Ruby: I don't think she would give me a hard time for wanting to be frugal. I just suspect that she'd start to love me less and find our relationship taking a boring nosedive because I'd always be inclined to hold back whereas she might want to have fun (be it a restaurant or weekend trip). I don't understand why you'd even want to be with a woman who would love you less if you were more frugal. If a person left me for a reason like that, I'd count myself lucky to be rid of him/her.
pandagirl Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 pandagirl: She doesn't seem to love me any less, and she's been all for helping me shop for groceries or cooking together, etc. I just worry that these actions/words may be temporary and that she'll start to distance herself. You say you made $45k, but this doesn't mean much to me because it's just a gain and doesn't reflect loss. What were expenses like/what were savings like/what was disposable income like? Am I further ahead than I think I am or am I actually behind? To be fair, it's not like I'm *constantly* spending hundreds on dinner. It's just that even if we space out large dinners "every so often," it's still a fair portion of my disposable income. I absolutely lived paycheck-to-paycheck, rent and bills sucked up most of it. I still know a lot of people like this, and in some regards, so do I. It's common. I still managed to save a modest amount of money, but not much. I know SO MANY people who are paying off school loans, too, from undergrad and grad school. It's just what happens. You're thinking in very extreme terms. You spend some, you save some, you pay off your bills, etc. It's just a balancing act. You're a young person in NYC who is figuring out everything, as most young adults are everywhere. You have a job, you make decent money -- you're ahead of the game.
spice4life Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 I totally identify with you on feeling like less due to finances, it's very easy to fall into the trap of beating yourself up over it. I've done the same and have decided to stop and instead do something about it. Now that you listed all of the negative things you feel about your situation, go back and list all of the positive things you've done with your life without putting a negative spin on it. Then see how you feel. I'm bet your gf sees all of the positive things you list about you. There are many ways to have fun and meet each others needs.
Author VertexSquared Posted April 4, 2011 Author Posted April 4, 2011 I absolutely lived paycheck-to-paycheck, rent and bills sucked up most of it. I still know a lot of people like this, and in some regards, so do I. It's common. I still managed to save a modest amount of money, but not much. I know SO MANY people who are paying off school loans, too, from undergrad and grad school. It's just what happens. You're thinking in very extreme terms. You spend some, you save some, you pay off your bills, etc. It's just a balancing act. You're a young person in NYC who is figuring out everything, as most young adults are everywhere. You have a job, you make decent money -- you're ahead of the game. Problem is that at this rate I don't see how people have so much money lying around. People like Nexus One speak as if it shouldn't be a huge deal to save up 50k after a few years. I don't know how much money people actually have. I feel like my monetary climb is so slow at only 800 net gain per month. There's no way that's going to amount to thousands even if I saved every penny of that. It makes me feel like I'm very much behind. I have no idea where I stand and yet all I know is that it feels like everyone can go out and have fun without (at least on the outside) worrying about the costs.
sweetjasmine Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Problem is that at this rate I don't see how people have so much money lying around. People like Nexus One speak as if it shouldn't be a huge deal to save up 50k after a few years. I don't know how much money people actually have. I feel like my monetary climb is so slow at only 800 net gain per month. There's no way that's going to amount to thousands even if I saved every penny of that. It makes me feel like I'm very much behind. I have no idea where I stand and yet all I know is that it feels like everyone can go out and have fun without (at least on the outside) worrying about the costs. I don't think the root of the issue is about your girlfriend. It's about you comparing yourself to everyone else and feeling like you're not on top. If you'd like me to write a short rant about how there are people your age with Ivy League degrees and brains who would absolutely love to be able to flush $1400 in rent down the toilet and still come out with a net profit of $800/month, I'll be happy to oblige. Vertex, you need to figure out how to stop comparing yourself to other people and you need to get the heck out of Manhattan.
pandagirl Posted April 4, 2011 Posted April 4, 2011 Problem is that at this rate I don't see how people have so much money lying around. People like Nexus One speak as if it shouldn't be a huge deal to save up 50k after a few years. I don't know how much money people actually have. I feel like my monetary climb is so slow at only 800 net gain per month. There's no way that's going to amount to thousands even if I saved every penny of that. It makes me feel like I'm very much behind. I have no idea where I stand and yet all I know is that it feels like everyone can go out and have fun without (at least on the outside) worrying about the costs. Due to living in NY and not being a millionaire, my savings pretty much suck. I try not to compare myself to others.
lonely79 Posted April 5, 2011 Posted April 5, 2011 I don't think the root of the issue is about your girlfriend. It's about you comparing yourself to everyone else and feeling like you're not on top. If you'd like me to write a short rant about how there are people your age with Ivy League degrees and brains who would absolutely love to be able to flush $1400 in rent down the toilet and still come out with a net profit of $800/month, I'll be happy to oblige. Vertex, you need to figure out how to stop comparing yourself to other people and you need to get the heck out of Manhattan. i could not possibly agree with this more!! You are making $800 extra every month?? after all your bills? dude....I am currently making maaaaaaybe $400 extra and that doesnt even include gas and groceries. I am really really cutting it close but I keep saving a bit more each month and my savings is growing...a little, haha! You can only do what you can do! you can't compare yourself to others and beat yourself up about it - ESPECIALLY if you aren't willing to make the changes necessary to make your situation better - You've had a reason (excuse) for why you cant get a better job, can't spend less on your g/f, can't move, can't stop being jealous...really you have to stop holding yourself back and just DO IT!
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