Is every man on the planet afraid of commitment?

[betterdeal]

Well, yes. And I am not trying to "change" him. I outright said I don't want to train him. I kind of resent the idea that anyone would think I'm trying to change him since I've been very clear, I have no desire to do so.

 

I've never said I thought anything of the kind.

[betterdeal]

He also claims he very much wants to commit to me, but it's frightening to him because he doesn't want to date someone for years and then not get married and waste time because he worries he'll have to "give up" some of the things he wants (re: Children, I guess, and experiences he wants to have with them; this guy is not that old though, barely 31, so I think he's being really silly about that personally).

 

What exactly is commitment in this case? You're already exclusive, and you've discounted marriage at this stage, so what difference is there between what you have now and commitment?

[heartshaped]

Of course I've considered that possibility. I just haven't decided yet.

 

For the most part, this guy is the most "like me" of any guys I've met on most levels --- just not this one. I don't really believe I'll meet a guy where everything works perfectly all the time, I guess, so I am not willing to "scrap" him until I know for sure it won't work.

 

It was more of a rhetorical question than anything else. Frankly, I don't think he's the man for you and I don't think you fully believe so either. His doubts combined with the ones you have displayed here are certainly not to be overcome. If you aren't ready to break up with him, by all means stay, but it's sort of like delaying the inevitable.

[zengirl]

What exactly is commitment in this case? You're already exclusive, and you've discounted marriage at this stage, so what difference is there between what you have now and commitment?

 

We are committed. I'm not asking any further commitment from him. I guess I would never express doubts to a person unless I was 100% sure that those doubts were real, were based on that person, and were unfixable. Perhaps most people aren't that way. I don't move in a direction in baby steps or hem and haw about it. I decide and I do. I may process first, but I'd never inflict that on anyone I cared about who was involved in the situation.

 

At this point, I have pretty much decided to try to forgive him (part of the problem is, I was almost successful in doing so but this conversation made me angry again) because, even if this doesn't work out, forgiveness is always a good thing to practice. Our relationship is mostly steady. This is just something that really bothers me --- because doubts are contagious, and I feel he is inflicting them upon me, but the fact that it makes me angry tells me there is a lesson here. So, I will continue on, to finish the lesson, if nothing else. That is what relationships are for first and foremost---to teach us things about ourselves and the world.

 

Yes. Yes you are. You may not think you want to, or have to put forth the effort to do so, but herein lies your quandary. You wish it. You yearn for it, you desire it. You are eager for it. Yet, here you are deluding yourself into thinking this person can be those things you so crave. He isn't. If you truly mean you don't want to change the guy this would not even be an issue, you would be true to yourself and move on.

 

As others have pointed out you have the wrong guy.

 

Yeah, don't tell me what I "yearn" for because you have no idea. You approach the word "change" from a bad place anyway, based on your approach to it in other threads.

 

I don't want to direct this man's change. He is changing (I don't know what the result will be) or he wouldn't have brought up that conversation---it was all about issues he wanted to change within himself, for HIMSELF, not for me (which is good). I often endeavor to change myself for the better, so I am fine with that; I just don't want to be party to his change, because he needs to do that for himself. The way he is doing it seems needlessly bumpy to me, but perhaps that is part of his lesson. I don't know.

 

It was more of a rhetorical question than anything else. Frankly, I don't think he's the man for you and I don't think you fully believe so either. His doubts combined with the ones you have displayed here are certainly not to be overcome. If you aren't ready to break up with him, by all means stay, but it's sort of like delaying the inevitable.

 

Thanks, though that wasn't the question asked, really. I may collect information and POVs from internet strangers, but I'd never rely on them to tell me whether or not I belong with a particular man.

 

The truth is: I don't know who the man for me is. How can I? If I knew, I'd be married already. You don't know until you both decide it is forever. That's my view. It seems very much putting the cart before the horse to try to "know" before you decide.

[zengirl]

It seems very much putting the cart before the horse to try to "know" before you decide.

 

I wanted to add to this:

 

It is a common problem I think people have. Everyone thinks they'll just wake up knowing something; that's never happened to me, in romance or elsewhere. I've decided things, and then I knew. While I agree you cannot make everything work, and I've no idea if this relationship will work in the end (because we haven't decided, or at least I haven't, and I'd imagine he hasn't), I will not fall prey to the fallacy that things are ever right or wrong. They are just chosen or not chosen, by the people involved.

[zengirl]

Good point. It's not just the two previous guys who showed pretty much total commitment when they proposed (which wasn't good enough for you), it's at least this third guy as well.

 

You're playing a game with these guys. (And with yourself, of course.) You pick weak men that you think you can control. Then you blame them for what you perceive to be their (inexcusable, to you) weaknesses. When you had a weak man who upped his game (in your words got successful, grew a huge ego, etc.) suddenly he was out of your league, and you couldn't stand up to the challenge of a truly strong male personality.

 

No, sorry, not what happened. The man in question was a strong man, changed his personality and became prey to materialism, later woke up and realized it but the damage was done. We have many friends, and this is what they all (including the man himself) saw. He did not get "stronger." He just became an Alpha jerk. Alphas are rarely strong, really. They act the way they are because they're weak.

 

I'm not playing a game or trying to control anyone. In fact, pretty much my whole life is based on the theory that one CANNOT get any happiness from controlling others.

 

The bottom line zengirl is if you want a commitment from a truly desirable man then you are going to have to up your game as well.

 

Strong men want women who will give them plenty of sex, are pleasant, attractive, talented, won't cheat on them, will have their back, yet aren't overly whiny and clingy, and capable of independent action. Ideally such a woman gives a great bj but also knows how to change the spark plugs or at least caulk the bathtub.

 

What do you bring to the table, zengirl, other than your penchant for being hypercritical of your partners?

 

Wow, what a shallow and simple list of traits. Of course, everyone wants an attractive, sexy, pleasant partner who is not clingy. I'm not 16. That could've come from an article in Cosmo.

 

I am a grown woman who has no trouble getting dates, boyfriends, etc. I do have conflicts in my relationships (who doesn't?) occasionally, and I do have men I've decided won't work out for me. I don't believe I'm hypercritical, but I am very into assessing what's right for ME. As should everyone be. And I do find it frustrating to live in a world where so many are floundering around in pain and unaware of how to be happy. That's perhaps the problem I have with this circle of doubts/fears my BF brings up----the way he is dealing with it is making him unhappy, and yet he is choosing to deal with it that way.

 

To me, that is insanity. But it appears to be how most people operate: They fear and want things simultaneously. I have never understood that, and it makes me uneasy. Which I don't like. Because unlike most people, I eliminate cognitive dissonance in my life pretty darn quick (Dealing with this for a few days in my head, before deciding a course of action, was kind of a long period of dissonance for me--- I don't understand how people stay suspended by their fears for months or years or even weeks).

[zengirl]

The person you are currently with cannot be compared to some hypothetical fantasy that you are unable to define, that probably doesn't exist, and who, even if he does exist somewhere, you have no guarantee you will ever meet nor that the two of you might be compatible.

 

Huh? Where did I say that?

 

You never get to "know" with certainty before you decide.

 

Re-read. This is exactly what I said.

 

Making the ultimate commitment to another person is an existential choice. There are no guarantees, and you are looking for some kind of a guarantee. You are taking a chance. Sorry, but that's life. Making a choice means you close off those hypothetical "better" options.

 

I think you're mis-using the word existential (or I don't take your meaning) but I think making a choice is the guarantee itself. You have promised it to yourself that it is your choice. That's the only guarantee you get. I don't see how we disagree on this, or why you're arguing with me . . .

 

All the people you will ever be with in relationships for your entire life will be human, hence, they will have flaws. Many flaws. (As we all do, including yourself.)

 

I said as much.

 

The things that you are focused on as qualities you think are important in a life mate are almost ridiculously trivial. You haven't even mentioned the important things such as honesty, compassion, the ability to love, suitability for raising children, and about a million other things that are way more important than whether they meet your arbitrary and unrealistic standards of "fear" and "doubt" and how they choose to express those emotions.

 

It is arbitrary to you. To me, it is at the heart of all human existence. Fear and doubt are what create cruelty, anger, and every negative thing and emotion in the world, everything that is the opposite of love and compassion. Fear and doubt are what take people down. Dealing with them is crucial to a happy life.

 

You're afraid too. You're afraid that you're going to wind up by yourself, or with someone that you won't be happy with. So stop pretending otherwise.

 

I don't think I am. I mean, I certainly want to be careful in choosing someone----who wants to be unhappy. But there is divorce. And being single is not so bad. I am happy in my life. I don't like doubt or fear and work to do away with them as efficiently as possible (of course, they are a part of life, but I guess I feel too many people indulge them).

[zengirl]

Update: I've decided what I'm going to do (I kind of detailed it above, but just to be clear) so I won't have much more use for this thread. If I don't answer you, my apologies, but it'd be a needless intellectual exercise at this point. And not one that interests me.

 

What I'm going to do is focus on healing the anger and resentment created by his behavior earlier and see what happens then. I have decided there is still a lesson here, still progress to be made. And despite not-liking the way I felt after he confided in me, I like more than I don't and am happy generally with the relationship.

 

To me: Whether or not it will work long-term was never the question for this thread. I haven't decided yet, so I have no idea. I will decide when I decide. That's just how things work. Supposedly, he HAS decided, which is why I find him so contrary (to fear something and want it at the same time, rather than just stay 100% where you are till you're 100% ready to move along the path to the next step---instead, he thinks four steps ahead and frets about it; silly, if you ask me), but I find most human beings contrary in this way. And contrary is not always bad. At the very least, it usually provides a lesson.

 

And I've never been in a hurry until I am in one, and I'm not in a particular hurry with this relationship now.

[zengirl]

Fear and doubt are a legitimate part of a happy life because they are a normal part of the emotional landscape of a human being.

 

You want to pretend that there is such a thing as a person who has no fear or doubt and you want to also pretend that if such a man exists he would be compatible with you and would be capable of loving you.

 

Only an inhuman person lacks fear and doubt. A sociopath. The rest of those of us who claim to lack fear and doubt are just fibbing.

 

Oy, this is the last I'll say, but you are missing the point:

Fearing and wanting something simultaneously is not healthy or happiness-producing. If you think it is, you simply view the world very differently than I do. It is not dramatically unhealthy in that it is outside of the human condition; in fact, I'd say it IS the human condition. The sad part of it, the part that keeps one trapped in the cycle.

 

That does not mean fear is never useful. For instance, having a healthy fear of fire is probably a good way to not get burned. But wanting something, fearing it, and being continually (for months or years in most cases) trapped in a place where that is unresolved, and the dissonance continues, and you have no idea how to process it on your own, well, that sounds like no fun to me. Live that way if you like.

[WorldIsYours]

Any reasonably mature, emotionally healthy man who was seriously interested in a committed relationship/marriage would likely not want to waste his time with a woman who has been proposed to twice, and rejected both proposals because of the above nonsensical excuse.

 

Why are you wasting multiple guys' time with your gamesmanship, getting them to dance to your tune, then when you finally get the proposal/commitment you make them think you want, you reject it. Because it's YOU, not them, who's scared of commitment?

 

That's why you can also say something as ridiculous as: "I want a man who has no doubt or uncertainty" conjoined with "But I also want a man who does not have a huge ego." Honey, only people with huge egos are without doubt, fear, or uncertainty. Draw a Venn diagram of the person you want--a man who is both 1) without doubt, fear or uncertainty and 2) who is humble/doesn't have a huge ego, and you come up with the "empty set." There is no such thing.

 

What you end up is exactly what you're complaining about: Emotionally weak if not crippled men. And of course you're not satisfied with that.

 

Also you're overintellectuallizing the whole process and experience. You need to find a guy who makes you see stars in bed, takes command of the relationship, and doesn't put up with your crap. Then, if you are lucky enough to find such a guy, if you want him to stick around, you better keep yourself in line.

 

If you want the weak sob stories who think you're worth wasting months or years of their time over, then that's exactly what you'll get.

 

Edit: Alternatively maybe you are just a very intelligent, articulate, but emotionally stunted and psychologically disturbed person. There's probably therapy for that though.

 

I agree. No wonder why he broke up the first time. He doesn't deserve this.

[zengirl]

Geez, and you say I'm condescending? Seriously? Pot, meet Kettle. I won't really bother with the rest, as I said. Clearly, you see the world differently than I do, including creating some idea of me that has nothing to do with my experiences. I'm going to trust my experiences in my actual life over some new poster who just came across me on the internet.

 

I did want to come back and say thanks to those at the beginning of the thread who provided me with some different perspectives on the actual topic. Most were very helpful in terms of giving me different thoughts and perspectives of their experiences with doubt and fears and how they process it. (I can see perhaps what my BF is going through and why he experiences these fears. Which was the goal of this exercise.) Those were interesting to hear. Cheers!

[WorldIsYours]

I'm going to trust my experiences in my actual life over some new poster who just came across me on the internet.

 

It wouldn't matter if he had a few thousand posts. We're all anonymous and no one's asking you to put your life in their hands.

[zengirl]

It wouldn't matter if he had a few thousand posts. We're all anonymous and no one's asking you to put your life in their hands.

 

Maybe, but I think you do get to know people after being around a bit. And I have trouble taking anyone seriously who calls me "honey" all the while acting like I'm the one being condescending. Or gives me Wiki articles on concepts I've studied via travel, formal coursework, and a (very short thus far, I'll admit, as I'm only 26) life dedicated to meditation and experience. If that's condescending, I guess I am, but c'est la vie. At any rate, I'm headed out and in a good mood.

 

As I said, many here were very helpful. I don't know this poster. He began with condescension then projected those faults onto me. I hate being rude and ignoring what people write (really) but going round and round seems unproductive.

Edited April 2, 2011 by zengirl

[Dust]

Maybe, but I think you do get to know people after being around a bit. And I have trouble taking anyone seriously who calls me "honey" all the while acting like I'm the one being condescending. Or gives me Wiki articles on concepts I've studied via travel, formal coursework, and a (very short thus far, I'll admit, as I'm only 26) life dedicated to meditation and experience.

 

The thing about fighting with people over the internet is nobody wins unless the point is to get retarded up in here.

 

Why do you believe that you think 26 is a very short life.

[lino]

It seems that the one unable to commit is you.. 2 proposals, really? And you still complain about guys committing to you? I can guess those guys may struggle to commit to women now after you rejected their proposals.

I know if I ever proposed to a girl and she threw it back at me I'd be very hesitant to do it again!

[DreamerGirl27]

I stopped at...your boyfriend doesn't call you to chat.

[MrNate]

I honestly think, because of how dynamic this situation is, this is not something that can be solved easily.

 

Maybe it's just best to let the cards fall as they may. I still stand by the fact that there are many guys capable of commitment, but i will definitely admit, in this current culture, finding those guys will be a lot harder.

[betterdeal]

We are committed. I'm not asking any further commitment from him.

 

Then his doubts are about the status quo. He is inexperienced in maintaining his boundaries, assertiveness, sense of self, and it is probably about how vulnerable being as intimate with someone as he is with you whilst at the same time knowing his is less able to represent his self with you. He's confided this fear in the person closest to him (you) albeit framed inaccurately and in a way that appears to have upset you.

 

You see attending counselling together as a failure (a very poor relationship) and giving pointers (books) in the right direction as training. You'd rather dissolve this relationship than do either of those things.

 

How about expressing your frustration with the status quo, what you would like it to become, and sharing some ideas with him? Just one conversation e.g.

 

"I'm getting quite frustrated by the doubts you're expressing. We are in a committed relationship and we have good times with each other, but there is something you're unhappy with. Maybe we can turn this into a growth point in our relationship, both learning something and improving together as individuals ..."

 

Don't forget to take a break from this and have some fun together too. You know, the main reason you have a relationship, right? ;-)

[SummersEve]

Here's my opinion:

 

1) Dating is not a marriage. It is a process of getting to know someone (with or without the endgoal of marriage) from one evening to several years or more. Monogamy for the duration, okay. Permanent commitment, no, that's marriage.

 

2) If you need greater satisfaction with men, you might want to try studying where they are coming from. Two fun reads for starters, Men are from Mars, Women are From Venus, and He's Just Not That Into You.

 

3) Not wanting to choose someone or anyone on a permanent basis is not a mental or moral lack (commitmentphobe, has issues, jerk) but simply a different, and equally legitimate, preference.

 

4) women who aren't finding commitment might do better with guys closer to thirty if the ones they're with are younger. Many of the younger ones just aren't there yet, they don't want it.

 

Good luck on your particular situation, OP.

Edited April 2, 2011 by SummersEve

[Kamille]

I'm glad you've found a solution.

 

Might I caution you against viewing his way of dealing with issues as "silly" (your words)? IME, it's really had to move forward in a relationship when one partner's way of handling issues is deemed silly by the other.

 

 

Best of luck.

[zengirl]

It seems that the one unable to commit is you.. 2 proposals, really? And you still complain about guys committing to you? I can guess those guys may struggle to commit to women now after you rejected their proposals.

I know if I ever proposed to a girl and she threw it back at me I'd be very hesitant to do it again!

 

I'm not currently dating the guys who proposed to me; I agree that saying "No" to a proposal spells the death of a relationship, if that's what you're saying.

 

I don't know why it seems hard for people to understand, but I'm not saying I date men who can't/don't commit. I'm saying I date men who have expressed some fears and doubts about commitment, as a general issue, but who have been committed to me in the relationship. To me, this is frustrating because I don't want the commitment to be about me seeming "right" as much as them seeing commitment as the right path for them, with any appropriate woman (me or someone else who is a suitable partner who they choose to work with). This seems to be cast aside in terms of what many people say -- the whole "A guy will commit for the right woman" idea is perhaps the issue, as it's something I dislike, even when I AM theoretically the "right woman."

 

Here's my opinion:

 

1) Dating is not a marriage. It is a process of getting to know someone (with or without the endgoal of marriage) from one evening to several years or more. Monogamy for the duration, okay. Permanent commitment, no, that's marriage.

 

2) If you need greater satisfaction with men, you might want to try studying where they are coming from. Two fun reads for starters, Men are from Mars, Women are From Venus, and He's Just Not That Into You.

 

3) Not wanting to choose someone or anyone on a permanent basis is not a mental or moral lack (commitmentphobe, has issues, jerk) but simply a different, and equally legitimate, preference.

 

4) women who aren't finding commitment might do better with guys closer to thirty if the ones they're with are younger. Many of the younger ones just aren't there yet, they don't want it.

 

Good luck on your particular situation, OP.

 

. . . . I don't really see how any of that applies to what I was asking. As stated in the thread, my boyfriend is 31. Those books are, in my opinion, rather simplistic/shallow views of human nature/gender relations, my boyfriend does want a permanent relationship (and in fact puts great pressure on himself to find that quickly), and I never said dating was marriage. I just wonder if any guy is really committed to the IDEA of marriage AND not afraid of it BEFORE meeting the right girl or does every guy fear it as an abstract, even those who want it.

 

I'm glad you've found a solution.

 

Might I caution you against viewing his way of dealing with issues as "silly" (your words)? IME, it's really had to move forward in a relationship when one partner's way of handling issues is deemed silly by the other.

 

 

Best of luck.

 

I find anything that someone engages in but continually makes them unhappy silly. His way of dealing with issues isn't currently making him happy. I cannot find it valid if it makes him unhappy and he admits as much.

[waynebrady]

2) If you need greater satisfaction with men, you might want to try studying where they are coming from. Two fun reads for starters, Men are from Mars, Women are From Venus, and He's Just Not That Into You.

 

I'm sure all women totally LOVES that book.

 

I think it says in it that women should never initiate contact, and never put in any effort among other things.

 

Exactly what you want to hear!

[snug.bunny]

I haven't read the entire thread, rather I skimmed through it...

 

But to answer your question, is every man on the planet afraid of commitment?

 

No, I do not believe they are afraid of commitment, I believe they are afraid of committing to the wrong woman. Essentially, I think women are fearful of the same thing, men and women just approach it differently.

 

He came to you and expressed a fear, which shows that he is committed to you and the relationship on some level, right?

 

Well, here's the hard part....you either accept his fear as what is (for now) or, you continually express a desire to change it, which will ultimately create distance in the end.

 

I see what you're saying though. His fear, now creates a seed of doubt in your mind, which doesn't enable you to want to fully commit. You want someone who is completely sure of himself, who knows what he wants and who he wants and takes charge.

 

It seems you've both reached a state of uncertainty.

 

Whatever the situation is or isn't, none of what any of us write and/or suggest, will ultimately solve whatever is going on within your relationship, you're not going to "solve" it either. But you will gain insight with such introspection, which is a gift in itself, right?

[zengirl]

I haven't read the entire thread, rather I skimmed through it...

 

But to answer your question, is every man on the planet afraid of commitment?

 

No, I do not believe they are afraid of commitment, I believe they are afraid of committing to the wrong woman. Essentially, I think women are fearful of the same thing, men and women just approach it differently.

 

He came to you and expressed a fear, which shows that he is committed to you and the relationship on some level, right?

 

Well, here's the hard part....you either accept his fear as what is (for now) or, you continually express a desire to change it, which will ultimately create distance in the end.

 

I see what you're saying though. His fear, now creates a seed of doubt in your mind, which doesn't enable you to want to fully commit. You want someone who is completely sure of himself, who knows what he wants and who he wants and takes charge.

 

It seems you've both reached a state of uncertainty.

 

Whatever the situation is or isn't, none of what any of us write and/or suggest, will ultimately solve whatever is going on within your relationship, you're not going to "solve" it either. But you will gain insight with such introspection, which is a gift in itself, right?

 

I suppose it's from not reading the entire thread, but this isn't really the situation. He says (and I believe him) that the fear has nothing to do with our relationship in particular. He is committed to this relationship. That is not, nor has it ever really been the problem (He did break up with me, but in his mind it was a momentary misunderstanding; I could not accept it as such so the breakup lasted a few weeks). The problem I have is that he is not committed, without fear, to what he claims to want: commitment. By which I mean the abstract concept.

 

I guess this goes to something that has always frustrated me with the men I've dated, which is I feel like they expect me, as the woman, to do more of the emotional work in the relationship. I guess, theoretically, I want the man to be as committed to commitment (in the abstract) as he is to me. I want it to be less about me and more about his personal choices for happiness. Which really comes down to: I am not going to be responsible for someone else's happiness. Just not gonna do it. But it's a fine line between being a caring, supportive partner, and falling into that trap.

 

I guess it just frustrates me to hear the stories from men, even seemingly very stable, committed men, that they only entered into the relationship and became fully committed because of who the woman was and because they thought she was special enough to overcome their fears. And that seems to be a common theory. I think it sucks. As I said early on in this thread, I've no desire to be the "special" girl who prompts some guy to commit despite his fears, yet that seems to be what happens. Maybe that's just how all relationships go, or maybe it's not gender specific, and one partner is always that way.

 

I cannot seem to find a story of two people who sincerely wanted commitment, were not afraid of it, had resolved all their dissonance against it, and THEN met each other and committed to each other. I'm not saying the stories don't exist (I hope they do) but I've yet to hear it. So that came closer to what I was asking, which many seem to have misunderstood or disregarded as unimportant.

[SummersEve]

I've got a graduate degree and I learned from the books I mentioned. But here you are the one with basic, obvious (to everyone else) misconceptions about men and commitment, and yet you believe that you are too intelligent for those books. Hmmm.

 

Honestly, my impression from your posts is that men probably find you emotionally exhausting and difficult and yes, condescending. I kind of regret the ten minutes I spent with you so I can imagine what it's like for him. Good luck though.

Edited April 2, 2011 by SummersEve