Author zengirl Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 And you know all men aren't like this, correct? So do you actively choose not to date these types of people you want? Because this obviously seems like the type of man you wouldn't mind being with. Ha, it basically seems like you're saying I like these types of men, but because they all seem to be this way, I'm not going to bother with it. I think we found our answer. I see what you're saying I only used the word "seem" so as not to offend anyone here. I mean they ARE that way. I mind being with guys like that, have dated them a bit, and strongly dislike men who are Alpha, etc, as I said. I was trying to be "politically correct" since I already pissed someone else off earlier with my feelings on extroverted males. Reread this over and over. Your thought processes are polar extremes. Balance is key and I'm not seeing any balance in your statements. So, net effect, your issues are within you to resolve. Try not to project. To me, balance requires two polar opposites. That's precisely what zen teaches us---re: the koans, etc. Zengirl, one thing I have noticed through following your posts is that you almost use doubt and fear as synonyms. Being afraid of commitment and doubting your relationship with someone are two distinctly different things. Yes, fear can cause doubt and doubt can cause fear, but if at the root of things, his problem is fear then that is what the issue is and any doubt that is caused by that fear is rather irrelevant. I suppose I don't like someone who would impose their irrational fear on their partner maybe? I just internalize mine until I process it and then do something with it (make a choice to change the situation/my feelings, depending on what the issue is). Rational fears and bad emotions are a different story.
betterdeal Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 So you want someone who is humble and 100% sure of everything he says, does, thinks and feels.
Isolde Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 Hey zengirl, I think you've gotten some good advice here. My only input would be that maybe whether doubt exists isn't as important as what type of doubt it is and what the intentions are. I mean, what actions is your bf taking in the relationship, even little things? Don't just look at words.
Kamille Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I suppose I don't like someone who would impose their irrational fear on their partner maybe? I just internalize mine until I process it and then do something with it (make a choice to change the situation/my feelings, depending on what the issue is). This is diametrically opposed to how I deal with problems in my relationship. I don't think a way is better than the other, but I do have a question. So, take this current situation. The fact your bf has expressed doubts is on your mind. When are you going to talk to him about it?
alphamale Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 In what way do they initiate relationships? They are passive, they don't make the first move. I'm 100% sure most women will say it's the mans job to bring up the talk. Considering you are supposed to be an "alphamale" shouldn't you be initiating everything anyway? Alphamale's don't tend to make the woman have to put in any effort. every "alphamale" knows that the chick chooses the man and that the man never, ever brings up "the talk"...
TokyoG33kyGal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) you have gotten good advices from everyone and i think you are just waiting for someone to say they agree with you or they have not ever doubted once in their relationship. isn't it ironic that you are wanting 100% from your boyfriend but with this whole discussion it kinda translates that you are not even 100% into him. if you follow your logic then it should be all in or fold. and after all these discussions your boyfriend does not even have an idea that you are entertaining these doubts. i think you should be focusing on what causes the doubts (on your bf's part). you are taking it personally and you are not sure if his reasons are more on his part rather than yours. for example, there are men who enter a relationship knowing that they are looking for marriage. doubt comes in when they realize that he and his partner does not match in terms of personality, principles, etc or some external circumstances like career changes on his part, financial stability, etc. and there are men who enter a relationship not knowing what they want in a partner, go with the flow and at some point decide if they want to commit with that person or not. the time a person would not doubt ever is only at the point where he decides to commit. semantically or rather technically, it's instantaneous. the moment it clicks in his head, that's the only time he would not ever doubt. the time prior to that decision, that's when the doubt comes into play. Edited April 1, 2011 by TokyoG33kyGal
mr.dream merchant Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Yeah, just not with an annoying nag-your-face-off. You figure it out.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 So you want someone who is humble and 100% sure of everything he says, does, thinks and feels. I suppose I want someone who is humble and 100% sure of each course of action he takes/feeling he expresses. Maybe "thinking" the doubts is not so bad, but revealing you've thought them is the real problem. To me, it is not real doubt until I've processed it and revealed it/acted on it. Maybe others do their doubt-processing with their SO. I do mine alone. Hey zengirl, I think you've gotten some good advice here. My only input would be that maybe whether doubt exists isn't as important as what type of doubt it is and what the intentions are. I mean, what actions is your bf taking in the relationship, even little things? Don't just look at words. He's very attentive, but we just got back together. He knows I am feeling reserved about the whole thing since we broke up and were apart. He is doing everything he can to "win" me back and rebuild the relationship. On that, I cannot fault him. This is diametrically opposed to how I deal with problems in my relationship. I don't think a way is better than the other, but I do have a question. So, take this current situation. The fact your bf has expressed doubts is on your mind. When are you going to talk to him about it? Once I've processed it and decided what to do about it. Why worry him until I know how I really feel? He cannot change it anyway. you have gotten good advices from everyone and i think you are just waiting for someone to say they agree with you or they have not ever doubted once in their relationship. Naw, I don't know what I want people to say, really. I suppose because I don't share my "processing" with my friends, family, SO, I share it anonymously on online message boards? Even so, you guys are only seeing a tip of the iceberg of what I'm processing on this. Just how I am. isn't it ironic that you are wanting 100% from your boyfriend but with this whole discussion it kinda translates that you are not even 100% into him. I've said that. if you follow your logic then it should be all in or fold. and after all these discussions your boyfriend does not even have an idea that you are entertaining these doubts. I've said that, too. I am especially frustrated because I feel I am betraying him by expressing doubts, even here. i think you should be focusing on what causes the doubts (on your bf's part). you are taking it personally and you are not sure if his reasons are more on his part rather than yours. I cannot change what causes the doubts, as he says it has nothing to do with me. So why share with me when I cannot fix it?
TokyoG33kyGal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I cannot change what causes the doubts, as he says it has nothing to do with me. So why share with me when I cannot fix it? i understand what you feel about it, i mentioned this on my initial post relating to my experience. it is for him to fix so do not take it personally if it has nothing to do with you. other people can have those doubts and choose to keep it, that is the way how your partner deal with the doubts. i think he is saying that he is willing to work on that.
betterdeal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I suppose I want someone who is humble and 100% sure of each course of action he takes/feeling he expresses. Maybe "thinking" the doubts is not so bad, but revealing you've thought them is the real problem. To me, it is not real doubt until I've processed it and revealed it/acted on it. Maybe others do their doubt-processing with their SO. I do mine alone. Gotcha. You're looking for someone who's a bit more tactful externally and mindful internally than your current lover has appeared to have been. Is that right?
Star Gazer Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I suppose I want someone who is humble and 100% sure of each course of action he takes/feeling he expresses. Maybe "thinking" the doubts is not so bad, but revealing you've thought them is the real problem. To me, it is not real doubt until I've processed it and revealed it/acted on it. Maybe others do their doubt-processing with their SO. I do mine alone. You didn't process yours alone, though. You broke up. That's the ultimate expression of doubt, and for you, probably the reason why this second chance won't work... that break, that clear expression of doubt, will always be hanging over your head.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 You didn't process yours alone, though. You broke up. That's the ultimate expression of doubt, and for you, probably the reason why this second chance won't work... that break, that clear expression of doubt, will always be hanging over your head. I don't know what you mean. He broke up with me. He may have taken it back very quickly, and I may have pushed him towards it (I do tend to push people off of such emotional cliffs, if they reveal them, mostly 'cause I don't want to deal with their doubt), but I didn't break up with him. I just didn't take him back right away. I didn't take him back right away because I needed to process alone. I feel like if he were 100% in and would stop expressing his doubts with relationships, it wouldn't be hanging over my head. I did process the last breakup stuff. And I did do it alone.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 Gotcha. You're looking for someone who's a bit more tactful externally and mindful internally than your current lover has appeared to have been. Is that right? I don't know about tactful, but mindful yes. That is what annoys me in most people---a lack of mindfulness. I think it is sorely lacking in society in general here.
betterdeal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 I don't know about tactful, but mindful yes. That is what annoys me in most people---a lack of mindfulness. I think it is sorely lacking in society in general here. So give him some books to read. Everyone is capable of it, and most of us didn't start off as mindful, it was learnt and in most cases, later in life. Either you can hope to find a pre-built, ready to go partner or give this one some hints and a bit of slack / space to acquire new skills and understanding, and see how that goes.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 So give him some books to read. Everyone is capable of it, and most of us didn't start off as mindful, it was learnt and in most cases, later in life. Either you can hope to find a pre-built, ready to go partner or give this one some hints and a bit of slack / space to acquire new skills and understanding, and see how that goes. Yeah, whatever happens, I'm not going to give my boyfriend homework. Not interested in training someone.
betterdeal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Yeah, whatever happens, I'm not going to give my boyfriend homework. Not interested in training someone. Okay then. You have the wrong partner.
ComeUndone Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted by zengirl Are there any guys who actually truly crave commitment and don't fear it even one little bit? Or is that just a pipe dream? the fact that at any point in time most people are married sort of throws a wrench in your theory Not really - plenty of men out there that ARE only married because they were pressured into doing so by their SO (ie either marry me or I'm outta here), not because they weren't afraid of commitment. I know men engaged right now in this very situation...they're still leery of commitment yet have been essentially talked into tying the knot.
Nexus One Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 No guy is afraid of commitment... to the right girl. This. I see only two ways how a guy can say he's a commitment phobe to a woman: 1. He's not sure if the woman in question is the right one, so he gives the commitment phobe excuse. Let's be honest gentlemen. We ALL know, that if the absolute right one comes by, then we have no problem committing. 2. He doesn't trust women (anymore) and/or has been burnt in the past and/or has had bad experiences with women. So then he doesn't want to commit anymore to women as a defense mechanism. Personally, if I met the right girl and I would be absolutely sure she's the right one and I would think she's the woman of my life, then I'd have no doubts about whether I'd want to commit or not, it would be a done deal. Do I think there's just one such a "right" woman out there? No, but then again they aren't plenty either.
heartshaped Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Okay then. You have the wrong partner. Have you considered the possibility, OP, that this man just isn't for you? It seems like you are wanting him to be something that he isn't and that isn't fair to either of you. I think you are looking for someone a bit more like yourself.
Kelemort Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 In what way do they initiate relationships? They are passive, they don't make the first move. I'm 100% sure most women will say it's the mans job to bring up the talk. Considering you are supposed to be an "alphamale" shouldn't you be initiating everything anyway? Alphamale's don't tend to make the woman have to put in any effort. I initiated our current relationship - by blatantly flirting with him and then asking him to be my boyfriend. I'm sure most women ascribe to gender roles and wait for the man to do it, but not all.
betterdeal Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Have you considered the possibility, OP, that this man just isn't for you? It seems like you are wanting him to be something that he isn't and that isn't fair to either of you. I think you are looking for someone a bit more like yourself. I agree. Part of mindfulness is accepting things as they are.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 Have you considered the possibility, OP, that this man just isn't for you? It seems like you are wanting him to be something that he isn't and that isn't fair to either of you. I think you are looking for someone a bit more like yourself. Of course I've considered that possibility. I just haven't decided yet. For the most part, this guy is the most "like me" of any guys I've met on most levels --- just not this one. I don't really believe I'll meet a guy where everything works perfectly all the time, I guess, so I am not willing to "scrap" him until I know for sure it won't work. I want him to stop this recent cycle, sure, but it's not like he's ALWAYS been this way, and it was triggered by something, so I am still processing in terms of what I want to do. If I were ready to dump this guy, I'd have dumped him. So clearly I'm not. However, I have clearly considered that he's not the guy for me in this thread (I've said that I wonder to that effect, based on this behavior). So, it seems kind of like a silly question. Of course I've considered it. I'm asking a broader based question about human nature as just one small component of my processing of these events. And I'll make a decision and act on it once I feel I have processed fully, collected all the information, and decided what is best for me long-term.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 I agree. Part of mindfulness is accepting things as they are. Well, yes. And I am not trying to "change" him. I outright said I don't want to train him. I kind of resent the idea that anyone would think I'm trying to change him since I've been very clear, I have no desire to do so.
Author zengirl Posted April 1, 2011 Author Posted April 1, 2011 (edited) This. I see only two ways how a guy can say he's a commitment phobe to a woman: 1. He's not sure if the woman in question is the right one, so he gives the commitment phobe excuse. Let's be honest gentlemen. We ALL know, that if the absolute right one comes by, then we have no problem committing. 2. He doesn't trust women (anymore) and/or has been burnt in the past and/or has had bad experiences with women. So then he doesn't want to commit anymore to women as a defense mechanism. Personally, if I met the right girl and I would be absolutely sure she's the right one and I would think she's the woman of my life, then I'd have no doubts about whether I'd want to commit or not, it would be a done deal. Do I think there's just one such a "right" woman out there? No, but then again they aren't plenty either. Really, with him, the issue is he doesn't trust himself. At least that's what he's come up with, and it makes sense --- his parents have only had failed marriages (several each) and while he's seen happy marriages, he doesn't know what they "feel" like and desperately wants to but says he's always been afraid to ask his male friends. That is what HE says at least. In the conversation that created all these problems. He also claims he very much wants to commit to me, but it's frightening to him because he doesn't want to date someone for years and then not get married and waste time because he worries he'll have to "give up" some of the things he wants (re: Children, I guess, and experiences he wants to have with them; this guy is not that old though, barely 31, so I think he's being really silly about that personally). As I said, I've had some of these men go as far as to propose, so they must have wanted to commit to me or seen me as "the girl" in some way, but I just hate that they weren't 100% committed to commitment before meeting me. I don't want to be the girl who "converts" some guy. I want him to want all that stuff for himself and know he can have it and not have any fears or doubts about it . . . though maybe that is unreasonable, so I'll amend to wanting him to work it out for himself. But I do like that my BF talks to me about his feelings on things---I guess I just don't want to hear any negative feelings about the relationship unless there is some solution to it that I can participate in. If not, why bother me with it? And my BF never said he was a "commitment phobe" nor do I think he'd identify as such. I just find it odd that he is so obessisively worried about relationship stages and committing to one thing = committing to another (i.e. Staying with someone a year = marrying them = being 100% sure that everything is right and he needs to figure that out right NOW even though we aren't even at a year, and were several months away from it when we broke up). To me, those are commitment issues. Edited April 1, 2011 by zengirl
Untouchable_Fire Posted April 1, 2011 Posted April 1, 2011 Really, with him, the issue is he doesn't trust himself. At least that's what he's come up with, and it makes sense --- his parents have only had failed marriages (several each) and while he's seen happy marriages, he doesn't know what they "feel" like and desperately wants to but says he's always been afraid to ask his male friends. That is what HE says at least. In the conversation that created all these problems. He also claims he very much wants to commit to me, but it's frightening to him because he doesn't want to date someone for years and then not get married and waste time because he worries he'll have to "give up" some of the things he wants (re: Children, I guess, and experiences he wants to have with them; this guy is not that old though, barely 31, so I think he's being really silly about that personally). As I said, I've had some of these men go as far as to propose, so they must have wanted to commit to me or seen me as "the girl" in some way, but I just hate that they weren't 100% committed to commitment before meeting me. I don't want to be the girl who "converts" some guy. I want him to want all that stuff for himself and know he can have it and not have any fears or doubts about it . . . though maybe that is unreasonable, so I'll amend to wanting him to work it out for himself. But I do like that my BF talks to me about his feelings on things---I guess I just don't want to hear any negative feelings about the relationship unless there is some solution to it that I can participate in. If not, why bother me with it? And my BF never said he was a "commitment phobe" nor do I think he'd identify as such. I just find it odd that he is so obessisively worried about relationship stages and committing to one thing = committing to another (i.e. Staying with someone a year = marrying them = being 100% sure that everything is right and he needs to figure that out right NOW even though we aren't even at a year, and were several months away from it when we broke up). To me, those are commitment issues. Everyone has fears and doubts. Don't let his throw you off track. I am guessing that his level of freakout is caused by the fact that he likes you so much. It's making him really consider things that previously were like fuzzy theory. Just tell him to chill out. The right time for these things will come eventually. I'm 31 myself and it makes some sense to me where he is at, but he needs to handle it much better.
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