WorldIsYours Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 So, um, being dumped, left and then being ridiculously impulsive and not following through is cheating? Oddly enough my husband looked at the whole incident with deep concern and I with deep embarrassment. Perhaps the fact that I didn't even hold the guy's hand doesn't make a difference at this point? Nobody is more ashamed of that night and those actions then me, but at the end of the day I am quite pleased that I didn't move forward and that it isn't in my nature to do so. It was risky, stupid, impulsive and immature. what it wasn't was adultery. Or very exciting. Or fun. So are we going to call it a 'non-emotional 5 minute stand affair?' And just to end off, it wasn't out of resent, period. It wasn't out if anger either. It was out of my own pathetic low self-esteem to show myself that 'it doesn't mean anything and I am going to take the pain away.' As well I wanted to know what was so damned important about casual random sex that my marriage had to be destroyed over it. Guess what I realized was so important? Nothing. It wasn't even worth pursuing to the end result. It wasn't worth the risk to even get past first base. Or even to first base. I am glad I realized and didn't pressure myself to follow-through on something so stupid and immature. I would say that walking a girl up to an apartment and going inside is inappropriate and stupid as a married man. There is no question as to the intent, but if you walk away before becoming emotionally or sexually involved after you wife just dumped you, I would not think if you as a cheater. Maybe as a bit of an idiot, but not a cheater. So yeah, I was immature and reckless. At least immature and reckless doesn't send me off for another STD test. The first one because of my H btw. Dr. Phil described cheating as something you wouldn't do in front of your spouse. Guess what, my husband occasionally reads my LS posts and I knew there was a good chance that he would monitor that while we were apart. I have also committed to myself never to censor myself here. He was aware of the incident within 24 hours of it happening. So basically you acknowledge you were wrong. That's all you needed to say. Problem solved.
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 So basically you acknowledge you were wrong. That's all you needed to say. Problem solved. Not really, I was wrong but I wasn't a cheater which is exactly what you accused me of. I would say that my actions on the night in question were wrong. But as for saying I am a cheater, you are wrong. And slanderous. Perhaps you being wrong makes you a cheater? Shall I announce in a threat that you are a cheater? And then defend it publicly? Is that how life is on Planet Jackass?
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 I've read enough of your posts to know that you're definitely not a cheater! Anyone with basic reading and comprehension skills will come to the same conclusion. Those who are unable to we should only pity for they are not as blessed as we are Well it appears that someone is in need of a tuneup then. Thanks for the backup
johan Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 It's kind of between the lines in most of your posts.
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 It's kind of between the lines in most of your posts. You mean that it suggests that I might have? or did? or what? You mean trucker guy or something else?
johan Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 You should really not take me seriously. I assumed you had been on the site long enough by now to know that.
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Thank you for clearing that up, I was about to do a full disclosure of my sexual history! I am not kidding, I air on the side of TMI. Especially here. Maybe I shoud start a thread about why I am so freaky about this. Or something. Really the fact that my father and husband are both cheaters (and caught within the same month no less) has been so traumatic that it really has gotten me riled. I am sure WIY enjoys seeing it too, but I think it sucks because he targeted me and I didn't do what he suggested. I used to kind of stick up for the guy if he is the same poster that I PMed a year or so ago. I was so pissed at my husband that his views seemed perfectly logical. And from an outside perspective they are but when I started looking more and more into my husband's background and perspective etc. he didn't seem as intentionally selfish and simply unable to grasp the damage and pain he was causing. I really think that he is unable to empathize and not because he is "a bad person" but because his brain just doesn't let that in at this point. He feels guilt and shame but can't seem to put himself in another's shoes whatsoever. No concept of what the other person might be feeling. I know that I am not that and didn't damage my family like that. I understand better people that do go there and can't understand it. I am just not a member of that club, my brain doesn't operate like that.
BB07 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Is that how life is on Planet Jackass? I know it's a serious subject but that planet jackass comment cracked me up.......Thanks for the laugh.
NoIDidn't Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 You should really not take me seriously. I assumed you had been on the site long enough by now to know that. LOL. Love it!
WorldIsYours Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Not really, I was wrong but I wasn't a cheater which is exactly what you accused me of. I would say that my actions on the night in question were wrong. But as for saying I am a cheater, you are wrong. And slanderous. Perhaps you being wrong makes you a cheater? Shall I announce in a threat that you are a cheater? And then defend it publicly? Is that how life is on Planet Jackass? You're the only one hurting yourself.
TigerCub Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Hey DoT, No, never thought you were a cheater. I think you put up with way too much, but not a cheater. Thank you for clearing that up, I was about to do a full disclosure of my sexual history! I am not kidding, I air on the side of TMI. Especially here. Maybe I shoud start a thread about why I am so freaky about this. Or something. Really the fact that my father and husband are both cheaters (and caught within the same month no less) has been so traumatic that it really has gotten me riled. I am sure WIY enjoys seeing it too, but I think it sucks because he targeted me and I didn't do what he suggested. I used to kind of stick up for the guy if he is the same poster that I PMed a year or so ago. I was so pissed at my husband that his views seemed perfectly logical. And from an outside perspective they are but when I started looking more and more into my husband's background and perspective etc. he didn't seem as intentionally selfish and simply unable to grasp the damage and pain he was causing. I really think that he is unable to empathize and not because he is "a bad person" but because his brain just doesn't let that in at this point. I'm just trying to understand - why is the bold true? What causes that? And... If that's true, would you not worry that he would hurt you again, simply because he can't understand how much pain he causes you with his infidelity and porn addiction, etc.? The last I heard from your updates was that you found a computer in the garage that he uses for porn (which from your past posts you've mentioned a porn addiction), what happened then. I hope you don't see my questions as too intrusive, I just wanted to understand how you keep going if things don't really seem to change all that much. I truly hope that you are happy, you certainly do exhibit a lot more patience and faith in people than most... Sorry for the somewhat thread-jack...
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 You're the only one hurting yourself. I would say that being publicly slandered is very hurtful, especially having just experienced it. You can invalidate it all that you want, but it is true and you are the one that did it. And for no good reason. If I hurt myself that is my business and my choice and I am more then welcome to decide if I wish to do that. It may not be right and it may affect my family but no one else. If I walk down the street hitting myself, that does not give you any kind of permission to come over and boot my arse. As for you affecting me, the affect may not be grand and to most people it may not be viewed as "a big deal" but to me it certainly felt that way because I do have friends etc. that lurk on here from time to time. As well, sometime in the future my daughter when she is old enough may look back on the old threads. I may never know. It is nice to see that you happen to be the only one who posted up who shares your distorted opinion. (Unless there are about to be a bunch of fake secondary IDs, nothing surprises me on LS anymore.) I am glad to note that your claim remains unsubstantiated and that the only posting you have done in response seem to be hit and run comments designed to rile. Probably the closest I should expect to an apology. I am truly grateful that this exposes exactly what you do in a situation where you are wrong, This would be instead of showcasing your foundation of ownership, logic, compassion, and decency. I would say that my personal opinion of you has been greatly lowered. Not that it necessarily matters to someone who slanders and then fails to take ownership of it. But it is nice for me because I feel a lot better knowing it was someone who fails to take responsibility for their own actions that did it. My own actions may have been flawed and stupid. Hell, some of my posting is less than desirable. Some of the things that I like about myself are: 1. When I realize a flaw in perception or a distinctly unhelpful or ignorant thing I have done, I take ownership of it. 2. I try to correct it. 3. I stay open to learning other perspectives and growing and learning (LS has been excellent for that). A lot of other posters have written me in support and many have said not to bother with you. I disagreed initially figuring that the lesser approaches had failed in finding your proofs. Now that you have had more then ample chance to present a case for you slander and defend it, you have provided a summarily weak argument that has been dismissed by both myself and others of this online community. That is actually okay. Even if you would have said: "the second you got in that truck, I view it as cheating," I would have accepted that explanation as greatly differing from mine but you would have been able to back it up. What you have done is chosen to show that somewhere in my wonderous life I did something wrong. And so? I also took money out of my mother's purse when I was 14. It was wrong. I've done lots of wrong stuff. Last night I ate crackers and dip and gave myself heartburn. It wasn't healthy and that was wrong. That isn't cheating. Guess what? You did something wrong. You put in a public place that someone was a cheater that isn't. So by your flawed logic because you did something wrong, I can say whatever I want about you. The only thing I will say about you is that you are a right-fighter for no good reason who is clearly not going to admit that they had no business saying what they did. Truly this new username etc. should be banned and probably will be in some short time. I will take the other posters' advice and ignore your rants etc. Clearly your anti-infidelity stance is only a guise to shame others just like it is often claimed to be. Go shame someone else. At least someone else that fits the framework. Until you get banned, again. I think it is truly sad that someone who hold such a high standard in one area of life, fails to take ownership of their actions. Thus you exhibited less personal responsibility then some of the "cheaters" on here who acknowledge their mistake and outlook who do everything in their power to make things right in their families again. And over something much smaller. Same character flaw, stupider reason. Thanks for making me look better, your response alone clears me.
WorldIsYours Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 I would say that being publicly slandered is very hurtful, especially having just experienced it. You can invalidate it all that you want, but it is true and you are the one that did it. And for no good reason. If I hurt myself that is my business and my choice and I am more then welcome to decide if I wish to do that. It may not be right and it may affect my family but no one else. If I walk down the street hitting myself, that does not give you any kind of permission to come over and boot my arse. As for you affecting me, the affect may not be grand and to most people it may not be viewed as "a big deal" but to me it certainly felt that way because I do have friends etc. that lurk on here from time to time. As well, sometime in the future my daughter when she is old enough may look back on the old threads. I may never know. It is nice to see that you happen to be the only one who posted up who shares your distorted opinion. (Unless there are about to be a bunch of fake secondary IDs, nothing surprises me on LS anymore.) I am glad to note that your claim remains unsubstantiated and that the only posting you have done in response seem to be hit and run comments designed to rile. Probably the closest I should expect to an apology. I am truly grateful that this exposes exactly what you do in a situation where you are wrong, This would be instead of showcasing your foundation of ownership, logic, compassion, and decency. I would say that my personal opinion of you has been greatly lowered. Not that it necessarily matters to someone who slanders and then fails to take ownership of it. But it is nice for me because I feel a lot better knowing it was someone who fails to take responsibility for their own actions that did it. My own actions may have been flawed and stupid. Hell, some of my posting is less than desirable. Some of the things that I like about myself are: 1. When I realize a flaw in perception or a distinctly unhelpful or ignorant thing I have done, I take ownership of it. 2. I try to correct it. 3. I stay open to learning other perspectives and growing and learning (LS has been excellent for that). A lot of other posters have written me in support and many have said not to bother with you. I disagreed initially figuring that the lesser approaches had failed in finding your proofs. Now that you have had more then ample chance to present a case for you slander and defend it, you have provided a summarily weak argument that has been dismissed by both myself and others of this online community. That is actually okay. Even if you would have said: "the second you got in that truck, I view it as cheating," I would have accepted that explanation as greatly differing from mine but you would have been able to back it up. What you have done is chosen to show that somewhere in my wonderous life I did something wrong. And so? I also took money out of my mother's purse when I was 14. It was wrong. I've done lots of wrong stuff. Last night I ate crackers and dip and gave myself heartburn. It wasn't healthy and that was wrong. That isn't cheating. Guess what? You did something wrong. You put in a public place that someone was a cheater that isn't. So by your flawed logic because you did something wrong, I can say whatever I want about you. The only thing I will say about you is that you are a right-fighter for no good reason who is clearly not going to admit that they had no business saying what they did. Truly this new username etc. should be banned and probably will be in some short time. I will take the other posters' advice and ignore your rants etc. Clearly your anti-infidelity stance is only a guise to shame others just like it is often claimed to be. Go shame someone else. At least someone else that fits the framework. Until you get banned, again. I think it is truly sad that someone who hold such a high standard in one area of life, fails to take ownership of their actions. Thus you exhibited less personal responsibility then some of the "cheaters" on here who acknowledge their mistake and outlook who do everything in their power to make things right in their families again. And over something much smaller. Same character flaw, stupider reason. Thanks for making me look better, your response alone clears me. Sure, you're welcome. Whatever feeds your ego. As I said before, the only person you're hurting is yourself. This whole thread is not solving anything so if you think your long paragrahs are hitting anything they're not.
BB07 Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 DOT........ Some people are on this forum have an extreme need to hate on women and will use anything real or perceived as cheating to vent that hate. I've been the victim of that kind of thing myself here at LS, and it is upsetting but try to see it for what it really is. Someone else's problem.........not yours.
What_Next Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 DOT, having read your story I certainly did not believe you were a cheater. I agree with TigerCub in that I believe you have put up with WAY too much and should have walked away a long time ago. Heck I think you'd have been justified with dealing with your husband with a cast iron frypan... (kidding of course, violence is never acceptable). I wouldn't get yourself worked up over something like this. This one poster singled you out and obviously upset you. Might I suggest to simply ignore their posts?
freestyle Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 For the record, DOT--you rock. There's only a handful of posters here who take the time to write deep, insightful posts, instead of skimming the surface--you strike me as a "leave no stone unturned" type of thinker. I, for one, have a great respect for that. And as long as I'm here, I'd like to say that my heart goes out to you for the pain you've been going through.....((((((hugs))))))
highviolet Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 DOT, Some people you are just not going to be able to get through to, and I think WIY is one of those people, much like what you said of your husband, does not have the capacity for empathy. BTW, I thought that way about my husband for a while, but he was under the influence of an addiction too, only his was pills. It caused a lot of hurt and I still don't forgive him for a lot of what happened then, even though he is clean and sober and has changed a lot. I know it's hard to, but just ignore WIY. As soon as I saw how he uses flawed logic and made up "facts" and putting words in people's mouths in order to back his mysoginistic opinions, I realised there is no way to win or even debate with him. You're very welcome for sticking up for you, I think that I will always stick up for people I think are really decent and kind and don't deserve slander. WIY is one who will pick on those at thier weakest to make himself feel self righteous. Don't waste your breath.
ComputerJock Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 "You mean trucker guy or something else?" DOT who is trucker guy?
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 "You mean trucker guy or something else?" DOT who is trucker guy? Shows how important "trucker guy" was eh? I don't even remember the guy's name either and honestly, I couldn't pick him out in a crowd if asked to! On my thread "He chose the addiction" (is this a violation of the Community Guidelines?) you can see that the night my husband and I seperated I went to meet someone, I never did anything as my head was in another timezone altogether and the dude must have thought that I was out to lunch (and I very much was). I ended up just taking off and going home. The whole bloody thing wasn't my proudest moment (by far ) and I won't minimize it. I went there with an intent and I was severely stupid for doing so. It was also risky and irresponsible. I didn't have the guts, arrogance, desire, vengeance, or hardness of heart to go through with anything. It just sits as a couple of frames on the edge of my memory because most of that whole night (between catching my husband and returning home in the morning) is just a huge blur. And a crappy blur to think about at that.:o I wrote the post in the other thread when things were pretty fresh, in fact I didn't realize how fast and crazy everything went that night until I just reviewed the thread. I hadn't looked at it since I posted it (beyond the first post). Trucker guy happened less then 3 hours after discovery. The discovery was more then just finding a laptop in the garage. What has happened that weekend is my husband went out to "do an errand" on Friday night that was supposed to take 20 minutes and then we were going to watch a movie together. His behaviour prior to that had been getting worse and worse including staying out all night the previous Saturday and then claiming he was "driving around to get his mind off of our conflict." BS! Anyways I set a "bottom line" boundary that he would call me if he was going to be later then he thought he would be. He left at about 9:00 pm and didn't come home until after 1 am. He called on the way home. Not good enough. So I tried to even talk to him about it and he pretended that I wasn't it the room! Like completely pretended that I wasn't there! So I kicked him out. He acted very uninterested and like he didn't care. Then he left. I didn't hear from him the next day but saw that he had 5 interact transactions from out joint checking account all within a two minute radius of one another. Most of them came from an truck stop that had overnight parking. I had thought up until that point that my husband was having an affair but since he stayed in the car overnight at the truck stop, that showed me that he didn't have a girlfriend's place to go to (weak logic, but desperate). I borrowed my Dad's to go down and see if he was at the truck stop to talk to him. The previous week aside from the 1 am thing our relationship had been running smoother because I had started to apply the Divorce Busting techniques. I thought that I would just say that we needed to go back to counseling etc. and that I wasn't accusing him of having a girlfriend but that I kicked him out strictly because he violated my boundary in a bad way and that it was because of his behaviour. Anyways, I found the car at McDonald's in Douglasdale square (a little over a half hour drive from home). It was running and I thought (naively) that maybe he had been reading the book I left in the side pocket about optimism and maybe that's why he hadn't phoned home. I opened the door and there he is with a blanket on his lap and this laptop attached to a cigarette power inverter that I had never seen before. He had stayed up all night drinking energy drinks and jerking off at McDonald's plus he had been online dating again and arranging hookups etc. (He denies this but it is totally true). I went ballistic. I actually almost smashed his laptop and then just gave it to him. I figured that if he wanted it that badly he could just have it. If he really loved it that much, me smashing it wasn't going to change anything. He really was much more freaked out over losing the laptop then losing his family, business, car, home etc. That's how crazy the addiction makes you. We had been going into bankruptcy and we didn't even buy each other Christmas presents we were so broke and there he is buying himself brand new laptops to go out and cheat! We only got our daughter one present! Anyways all Hell broke loose and he ended up racing home (I posted just as I left the parking lot actually, I can't believe that I started a thread in the midst of that! I really went mental!). We had a confrontation at home and I booted him out for '30 days' with nothing but his backpack and laptop. He slept outside in -30 for a week. I tried to talk to him more and even get him his meds but he wouldn't have it. He was in full-on terror mode and even started yelling at me that I was going to run him over or try to kill him (which I didn't get, because I even gave him back his stupid laptop). Although I was acting really nuts and did bite him, the details are in my thread. I didn't post up all of the things he was saying to me though pretty much blaming me for stuff and then ignoring any responsibility and then saying that he only stayed married to me "not to hurt me." WTF? He totally sings a different tune now but says that he used that to justify his behaviour. Who knows if he is placating me. So we had a fight by the bus stop and this old guy came over and started yelling at us then he left. Then the bus came and my husband was gone. Right after that I used my iPhone to go and meet someone. The posting about me meeting the trucker and then running away came less then three hours after the initial discovery. Not my finest moment, I didn't even realize until now that everything was so packed together like that. Plus where I met him was about 20 minutes away from where I was. Everything happened really fast with not much thought in between.
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 We'll just say that my signature became valid the day I started posting with it. I didn't always have good judgment or controls.
Trojan John Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Just ignore him. It's really not worth all this effort, DoT. Cheers
Memphis Raines Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Not really, I was wrong but I wasn't a cheater which is exactly what you accused me of. I would say that my actions on the night in question were wrong. But as for saying I am a cheater, you are wrong. I agree that it doesn't make you a cheater. But it suggests that you have it in your character to be. But no, you are not an official cheater. If we put aside your situation for a moment, lets say I was in a committed relationship and my woman at the time jumped in a car with someone knowing what it entails, but decided to not go further. I just got a glimpse of her character, and it would not sit well. While she didn't officially cheat, it was in the back of her mind. I now do not have confidence that she wouldn't cheat in the future. So I'm not calling you a cheater. Just describing how it would look or how it might be perceived.
SoulStorm Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 You may not have gone through with the act..but the intent was there. Your morals stopped you and I believe your response was done in anger. Like you acknowledged, not very smart or mature. Lesson learned
Author dreamingoftigers Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Diving in.... I know it's a serious subject but that planet jackass comment cracked me up.......Thanks for the laugh. Thanks, I feel a lot better today, it really did have me riled. 1. because when my Dad cheated there was an accusation out just before he got caught, he managed to laugh it off etc but there was a lot of doubt on my end. My Aunt's friend told me that "there is rarely a rumor like that that doesn't turn out to be true." If most people hold that attitude then it could affect me poorly. 2. One of my Dad's favorite abusive techniques when I was growing up was unfounded character assault. Whereas I can see the BS in it (having not had any cheating goin' on) it just triggers a lot of crap for me that I haven't dealt with yet by EMDR etc. My husband likes to pull the same thing. He said for awhile that I must have caught him because I was "spying on him just to catch him, just to get him." It really grinded my nerves because I told him that I wasn't spying on him and then he acted like I was lying. If I had spied on him, I wouldn't have lied about it because I wouldn't have had a problem with it. He says that part of him being defensive about the whole thing, he wants to shift blame and make me out to be as bad because he is ashamed of it all. Unfounded character assault drives me mad, at least I know what my Kryptonite is now. Thanks Poster of False Accusations. Oddly enough my husband didn't have a major problem with "trucker incident" and doesn't see it as defining my character. He was concerned though. Today and because of the response of the poster I feel better knowing that it isn't a commonly held viewpoint of me. When I was growing up my Dad used to say that no one would ever believe me about his abuse because they would think I was a liar. I actually developed a streak for dumping out way too much information about myself to compensate. I share everything. It's actually kind of ridiculous. In my adult years people would come up to me and tell me that they knew of the abuse (my Aunt said the way he treated me when I was three actually made her sick to her stomach). I somewhat understand why no one intervened (my Dad was pretty psycho and manipulative). I really wish that someone had though, especially my mother. But that's a different thread. Hey DoT, No, never thought you were a cheater. I think you put up with way too much, but not a cheater. That's the thing, whenever this rears it's head, I don't put up with it. I don't give up either, but I make my expectations really clear and if my H doesn't want to get his act together then he needs to get his ass gone. I am sick of him placating me and his actions are going to have to be huge over the next while. He has a lot of distance to cross for both himself and our family. I am focusing on making my life and healing a better place. Whether or not I leave the marriage, the path up until that choice is the same: become healthier, less reactive, happier. Cheating is only reactive. I won't go there. I'm just trying to understand - why is the bold true? What causes that? And... What causes a lack of Empathy? I cannot speak in all cases and at best it is just an underlined theory but here goes: 1. There are two types of trauma (defined anyways) There is Big "T" trauma and Little "t" trauma. "T" is the stuff of severity. Abandonment in childhood, abuse, neglect, being raped, war, etc. etc. "t" is some jackass yelling at you in a crosswalk, maybe not getting a date for the prom. Stuff that sucks but really isn't going to alter you as a person. "T" trauma causes the brain to "freeze" and split. The brain cannot easily process this type of trauma and it loops around the brain because it cannot be easily integrated. Too overwhelming. Often people who have a "victim" mentality have this type of trauma, they can't escape the loop no matter how many times you reason with them. They cannot easily see past it. Now think of brain trauma as being water in a glass (yes I made up this analogy). The average person goes through childhood getting the glass maybe 1/3 filled with "t" trauma. You can carry that weight around and still function. Very little clouds your outlook and judgment, you have a healthy template. You may get stressed at times but you can work through it. You don't have a lot of trauma triggers, life happens, yay. You may have a crappier childhood and the glass made be 2/3 or even 3/4 full. You can still handle most of the day to day stuff but maybe you don't handle stress too well, you get filled up a little easier and once in awhile you have a blowout, or you get depressed or mopey. Essentially the glass overflows. In my case and in my husband's case we had childhoods from the pits of Hell. We were both victims of disrupted care in infancy. Both of our mothers turned us over to our maternal grandmothers months after we were born. And then later on out maternal grandmothers abandoned us. Our therapist had said to us initially that most couples get together because of their unhealed garbage. This makes sense to me, in fact it is eerie because when my husband and I met, we had nothing else in common but those early types of experiences and we weren't aware of it until we had been married for a few years. Children that experience a significant disruption in care (esp during the first 18 months) have significant trauma. In fact the care in the first 18 months often depicts whether a person will grow up to be an addict as the first 18 months is when the dopamine regulator in the brain does a lot of developing during that period. It's development is distinctly affected by the children's bond with their parents. Needless to say because of the "T" traumas of abuse, neglect and abandonment my husband and I ended up with very full glasses of trauma. Relationships were a nightmare to me. Craving them and then having them go sour and not being able to be anywhere near as close to someone as I needed to feel okay. I was diagnosed with Borderline when I put myself into hospital after relational stress. Borderline is now known as 'layers of childhood PTSD' the frontal lobes (reasoning centers) don't communicate with each other properly. (I don't believe this to be good or healthy, I also don't believe people should allow suicidal people to control their actions. However, I also realize that at the time I had no coping skills and a very limited understanding of my options and feelings. Relationships and emotions for me were like sending a first grader to write a University exam, very scary, very overwhelming and way out of my league.) My husband's glass overflows into addiction to escape feelings that overwhelm him. Addicts don't consciously know this of course. They know that they feel like acting out or getting high and that that craving tends to go against their better judgment. The idea of groups like AA is to get the addict to recognize their cravings and then hold off on them long enough to find out what is actually bothering them. At that point they can recognize the patterns and work with the behaviour. The moralizing stuff is just the fluff of it all to get the cognitive changes to take root. If you sit a bunch of addicts in a room and say "tonight we are going to get you to ignore what makes you feel good so that you can feel bad and uncomfortable" places like AA would probably have an even lower success rate. Back to the glasses: My cup used to run over all of the time just from day to day stuff. I won't see threats everywhere, often things would trigger a trauma memory that would cause me anguish. Since trauma is largely stored in the central nervous system (your brain being a big collection of nerves) bumping my head or hitting my hand on things would bring tears to my eyes. (Not sobbing or anything necessarily at all) I would get very frustrated and upset. Now it doesn't bother me. My husband's infidelities caused me so much trauma that I would break down in washrooms. I cried for over 400 days straight. I couldn't sleep through the night, I still get the shakes sometimes. Infidelity is a "T" trauma to the max. It may seem that I am rambling, but I am going somewhere with this. "T" trauma in early childhood freezes the brain at that stage of emotional development. The brain starts to develop in a new way. Abuse magnifies this because abused children take of the characteristics of being 'hyper-vigilant.' Hyper vigilance is the brain function that prey animals have in the wild to keep them alive. It is the perception of threats. Abused children are often on the lookout for threats and have to have a 'fight or flight' response to the stimulus to keep themselves safe. It is a survival mechanism, it is not based on rational or conscious thought. Any shift in the environment causes the alarm, it is subconciously a threat. This leads to a disproportionate sense of "you can do me a lot of harm that I have no control or say over." Some people live their whole lives that way if they can't process their trauma. The hyper-vigilance coupled with the "T" trauma from childhood causes an effect that reinforces each other. The person is always on the lookout for threats from others and does not have the emotional maturity or ability to see that their behaviour affects someone else, and their own existence. Their brain is so outside focused in order to survive that they cannot form up that sense of self and security. The brain is so used to the environment that has been created around it that it even seeks out the threats to feel at "home." You can see it with a lot of the regular posters. They cannot process the trauma and see the threats everywhere. They loop and loop over the same things. Some of the guys loop over women issues and "women hating them," "women are evil" blah blah. They are very difficult to reason with. They haven't processed some pretty obvious mommy trauma. Plus, if you were to have six pages of decent argument against it, and one female poster said "yes I hate you and I want is your money." Then the belief gets reinforced. The brain seeks that attention to fit the template. On the other hand, invalidating the poster's feelings tend to have the same effect, the brain gets its "threat" quotient. One exception to this is Woggle. (I hope he doesn't mind he singling him out here). He has had the "T" trauma BUT he has kind of had enough of it, it seems. He has been slowly but surely making some of the cognitive changes. His posts seem two posts forward one post back sometimes, but you can see really different thinking pattern come out of them. I look around my husband's cheating. Brain still has trouble with that one. I see other loops. I know that if I yak about something a bunch it is because it 'hit a nerve.' So why is there a lack of empathy: The short reason is that the brain didn't get set up for it because crucial steps were missed. The long version is that hyper-vigilance allows the brain to see what is 'threatening' and 'potentially threatening' it. The emotional lack of maturity means that you can't see more then two feet in front of you. Yes, my husband is a big baby. That's when the trauma offset and he is still there. I can't wait until he reads this thread. In my husband's case (as with pretty much every sexual addict out there) intimacy triggers trauma. This is part of why we ended up together, both of us emotional infants. We both wanted instant gratification, right now, I like you, you like me. Yay. Let's get married! We were engaged at 3 months. My husband's mother abandoning him has taught his brain that getting attached to women is a threat and his maternal grandmother's relationship with him taught him that having any feelings that were not impressed upon him directly by her would comprimise his emotional/physical safety. Any expression of independence was squelched. My husband adapted by placating and telling her (and later me) whatever he thought we wanted to hear. I have no idea what the truth is from him yet, except when he is defeated in some way he tends to tell it. (God she's frustrating, I wish I could do her history). To my husband, the expression of love is telling others what you think they need to hear in order to stay safe and stay in a relationship. When my husband started to express rebellion, he was abandoned into foster care. To him, any independence meant being tossed aside. Unfortunately for him the addiction sets up a horrible self-reinforcing feedback. He goes there to avoid the pain, but it comes at the cost of more pain deferred. Like a high-interest loan. The chemical high from sexual addiction screws up perception because it makes the world look crappier then it really is in comparison with the high. Then you just want to escape more because your life is just that much crappier. You get paranoid and see more 'threats.' As much as I hate what my husband has put me through, I would not trade places with him. (Well maybe to just get my ass into treatment). Addiction adds another layer onto the lack of empathy. Dopamine inhibits oxytocin which is the bonding hormone. It also inhibits a host of other reactions in the brain that cause guilt and empathy. Doesn't inhibit shame though. "T" trauma causes so much damage to dopamine regulation in the brain and it causes shame so the brain requires an overproduction of dopamine in order to feel "okay" or "normal." That overproduction knocks out many of the empathy pathways etc. So that's why you get these immature addicts who justify their behaviour and don't give a ****. They literally cannot give a ****. Their brain doesn't have the capacity to care. Until they hit bottom because the dopamine doesn't override all of the bad feelings anymore, they ran the high-interest credit card balance too high and their brain can't pay it. Would not be surprised if this is why overdoses happen too. Addicts will lie to get whatever they want because they don't care who they hurt and they can't understand their pain anyways. They are comfort-seeking missiles that feel remorse and embarassment when caught out, but they are also victims of themselves. There are ways to fix these problems up for the most part. (Believe it or not!) One is treatment. By attending treatment he can intellectually learn how to deal with the urges. Once you get past them you can find out what is actually bothering you. I notice this when I get highly aroused or have a sugar craving. If I wait the 20 or so minutes for it to pass, then I know what is bothering me. Sometimes it feels like grief (that's why if you attend a 12 step meeting they are often kind of depressing, people have the cravings under control but then they have all of this unprocessed trauma that comes leaking out). So the cognitive changes are good and since the brain has a certain amount of neural plasticity (a higher amount then suspected) the brain can adapt to newer, healthier ways of regulating itself. Like exercising to regulate dopamine. Also the dopamine balance comes back into check over time and your brain is released from its dependence. In my husband's case his brain went from alcohol, to co-dependence with me (early love releases dopamine by the truckloads) and then to sexual addiction. So now it would be nice if he exercised or did some artwork or something instead! Now the cognitive things are actually the 'afterthought' not the 'forethought.' Another reason why 12 step has such a low sucess rate is because people feel the shame and like losers that they can't quit etc etc. (Shame comes from an incomplete or broken sense of self. If you are hyper-vigilant and looking on the outside all of the time, you cannot build enough self to overcome shame.) Plus most people cannot cognitively shift from dependency to independency on a chemical high. Especially when their judgment and reasoning centers are borked to begin with! So the brain itself needs some work first: 1. The offending or dependency forming item needs to be removed. Laser therapy has been used to treat addiction with varying success for quite some time. (Sexual addiction 70-85%). When one gets dependent on a substance (or compulsion) to produce that addictive dopamine, the brain stops or slows significantly in producing it naturally. Hence the dependence. What the laser does (and acupuncture) is stimulate the brain to produce the natural dopamine for up to six weeks. This is long enough to get through the withdrawals and start to lower the brain's dopamine craving. Thus breaking the loop and bringing the chemical imbalance back into focus. This corrects some of the judgment issues too. 2. EMDR to process the underlying shame. Very very crucial. EMDR does what the brain does naturally but speeds it up. The brain does have a natural integrator and trauma processor. It is REM sleep. REM sleep triggers both frontal lobes into action. It helps cement things into the reasoning centers. EMDR simulates REM sleep but triggers the reasoning centers 30 seconds at a shot. I have been for six sessions and my quality of life has greatly improved! I stopped crying everyday and I don't feel guilty and responsible for everyone else's behaviour. Although some behaviours still trigger me (i.e. why this thread is here) the very presence of my father doesn't anymore. He used to make me feel anxious, sick in my stomach and angry. Now he doesn't phase me when I see him. In fact nothing happens. Which is about what it should be considering that we haven't had a relationship outside of the way he treated me during childhood. He has undergone massive, massive change due to EMDR as well. I think I triggered mother issues to him which is not uncommon among trauma and abuse victims to have issues with their opposite gender parent and their opposite gender child. We can talk now without explosions. It never would have been possible before. As well since I have had EMDR my abandonment issues went from a 10 to a 7. But considering they used to put me into the hospital before, that is a huge change. I am supposed to have about 20 sessions of EMDR and I have only had six so far. I am one of the approximate 5% of the population that had results after the first session. Pretty amazing stuff. My husband went for 3 sessions. He was also using his addiction at the time which makes them less effective in integrating the trauma. EMDR makes you kind of relive it, so it is really tough in session but you even feel lighter when you are done. I have had to take breaks in session because it is so intense. EMDR reduces the physical sensations in trauma as well. My husband couldn't cope very well after his last session and went on his bender right after. (March 2010) He had been so divorced from his feelings that they came back with a vengeance. If that happens you are supposed to follow-up to get more EMDR within two or so days because it closes that "loop" off. But he didn't. The EMDR can knock out about 80% of childhood trauma issues (of course this is difficult to weight and quantify, subjective, right). But it does have a significant positive impact. I wish I could EMDR the world. 3. The polygraph Yes, it sounds awful but it is a standard part of sexual addiction treatment. After steps have been made to stop another important step is disclosure to the spouse. The addict has to disclose his activities and have it confirmed by polygraph that he has told the truth about these things. This is therapeutic. Not interrogational. This is because underlying virtually all sexual addiction is the shame that "no one would ever love me if they knew who I really was and what I really did." It is part of the healing process and a way to let all of that garbage go. As well I will not accept a disclosure without one. Some sexual addictions therapists recommend not getting one because they claim that it undermines the trust in a relationship. I think being an active sexual addict undermines the trust in a relationship. There are women in my group who have gone through treatment with their guys and gotten through disclosure without a polygraph and it turned out that they lied. What the Hell is the point of that? I refuse to deal with that BS and spend the next ten years wondering if he really went to get milk at the store. Yearly polygraph follow-ups are common. I think maybe one at 3-6 months after the first passed polygraph. The damage here is pretty bad. Many of the addicts appreciate the follow-up polygraphs because they keep them in check and exonerate them from suspicion. I like the idea because then he can't have any of those decade long affairs we read about here on LS! 4. CBT: this is something that should be done throughout to address dysfunctional thinking patterns. If that's true, would you not worry that he would hurt you again, simply because he can't understand how much pain he causes you with his infidelity and porn addiction, etc.? I guess my explanation is above. I know that this is all a long-shot given our issues and his back and forth stance, but we are at the end of the road, so I may as well go the extra block. I am pretty worn out. If there aren't massive healthy changes then I already know I love and respect myself not to go through this anymore. Plus we have a ton of MC to do together. Putting intimacy together is a tough cognitive change but I am sure it could (would?) be fun too. We have always been pretty close, even now. Every therapist we have had comments on it, including the clinic in Victoria. My husband has a ton of issues but when I see past that I really enjoy his company and even though he's been a dope who has behaved crappily to me, he enjoys mine too. And we both love our daughter and want to be better parents for her. The last I heard from your updates was that you found a computer in the garage that he uses for porn (which from your past posts you've mentioned a porn addiction), what happened then. I booted him out, I found a newer treatment, let him know, he is enthusiastic. I found an anonymous source (I know who it is he doesn't) to pay for treatment. We have to pay a lot back, but that it is okay. He came back for a bit and is now trying to make money by panning in Northern Alberta to be able to pay for his behind bills and bills while he is in treatment. Will be popping down on the 4th. We are also trying to find a way to go and get brain scans at the Amen Clinic together. I hope you don't see my questions as too intrusive, I just wanted to understand how you keep going if things don't really seem to change all that much. Apparently you question allowed me to open the gates to write a post that most won't read . I don't see any Qs as intrusive on here. I like Qs. They help me organize my thoughts and see if I am headed in the right direction. I truly hope that you are happy, you certainly do exhibit a lot more patience and faith in people than most... I think most people just can't see what they do. I know that I couldn't and it really limited me. I don't believe on giving up on people. I also don't believe in throwing myself under the bus anymore. I think most people think that they are good people that do good things or that they do bad things because of circumstance. Usually when people lack empathy, there is something else going on. I think mostly people can't see other's pain because they are in so much themselves. Sorry for the somewhat thread-jack... Thread jack anytime. It happens to be a trademark of mine DOT, having read your story I certainly did not believe you were a cheater. I agree with TigerCub in that I believe you have put up with WAY too much and should have walked away a long time ago. Heck I think you'd have been justified with dealing with your husband with a cast iron frypan... (kidding of course, violence is never acceptable). Thank you. Well early on I had a brief thought about killing my husband. I will be completely honest. It happened at East Side Mario's after the first time he took off and left me with 3 month old daughter. We went and had dinner and he was debating whether or not to get dessert. I encouraged him to and then I think I got him to get some extra-unhealthy sides too. My logic was that if I got him to eat enough trans fats over time he would die and no one could blame me. (I told him this shortly after because I felt guilty, he was hurt and laughing at the same time). I also told him that if I wanted to kill him that all I had to do was make him a pound of bacon for breakfast every morning and even if he knew that I was doing it to kill him he would eat it anyways. (he loves bacon) Despite the anger that these things were said with the bacon thing has become and inside joke. We once made a "Bacon Explosion" together. I could only eat one bite. So gross. I would have walked away if I wasn't given so much hope by therapists who diagnosed sexual addiction, it gave me a problem to work with instead of "he's an ******* who doesn't respect you." Didn't make it less painful (in fact in a lot of ways it hurt worse to find out how much his brain responded to other women's body parts and how much anxiety sex with me caused). What it did do was start me on a course and path of action. It took me quite awhile to get the pieces together and realize the depth of the problem. It took me a long while to realize it wasn't my fault and to combat ignorance on the subject. I would hear crap form so many people "maybe it is because you are too fat" "maybe he's gay" "maybe he just doesn't love you" "maybe you need to experiment more in bed" (he was shy in bed, not I) "he's just selfish." The casual explanations didn't seem to line up (especially the gay one, I mean wtf?). If I hit a brick wall early on and saw that everything was unfixable, I would have given up long ago. I do believe in paying down some of the pain of dysfunction that my parents brought with them. Having a family is so so so important to me. I think about all of my grandchildren and great-grandchildren that will be affected by what I do with my relationship and my responsibilities. If patience is the answer, then I can spare a bit. But this has to close quickly because my daughter is getting older and almost 10% of her childhood is gone. I don't want to miss any of it. I wouldn't get yourself worked up over something like this. This one poster singled you out and obviously upset you. Might I suggest to simply ignore their posts? You know what, now that I know why it bugged me so much, he doesn't bug me so much. He can have a blast on my threads for all I care. He thinks I am a cheater (or whatever he thinks) I think he is someone who can't stand by facts or produce them. Maybe that will change. Maybe some CBT might help. For the record, DOT--you rock. There's only a handful of posters here who take the time to write deep, insightful posts, instead of skimming the surface--you strike me as a "leave no stone unturned" type of thinker. Thank you! I, for one, have a great respect for that. Thanks again! And as long as I'm here, I'd like to say that my heart goes out to you for the pain you've been going through.....((((((hugs)))))) I like hugs! DOT, Some people you are just not going to be able to get through to, and I think WIY is one of those people, much like what you said of your husband, does not have the capacity for empathy. BTW, I thought that way about my husband for a while, but he was under the influence of an addiction too, only his was pills. It caused a lot of hurt and I still don't forgive him for a lot of what happened then, even though he is clean and sober and has changed a lot. I hope that your husband's brain has stabilized itself nicely. I know that it is hard to let go of betrayal pain. I am still angry and probably will be for awhile. EMDR might be helpful for you too. I know it's hard to, but just ignore WIY. As soon as I saw how he uses flawed logic and made up "facts" and putting words in people's mouths in order to back his mysoginistic opinions, I realised there is no way to win or even debate with him. You're very welcome for sticking up for you, I think that I will always stick up for people I think are really decent and kind and don't deserve slander. WIY is one who will pick on those at thier weakest to make himself feel self righteous. Don't waste your breath. Noted.
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