thatdog Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Three I gave my fiancee an ultimatum either we go to counseling or we break up. She chose the latter. I did this at the time because our relationship had been going downhill rapidly for a couple of months and whilst she wold say she was unhappy and wanted to work on the relationship she didn't really know what was wrong and was unable to get in touch with her feelings properly and hence was pulling away from me. I thought this would be exactly what a counselor would be good for. I was unable to find anyone to see us that didn;t have at least a 3 week waitlist (or the ones that did cost over $150 a session, which is kind of tough for a students budget). Just last week however i found out that in fact she was involved in an EA for the whole time we have been problems. She has apologized, shown remorse and taken steps to show that the EA is over (via old text messages and cancelling all her shifts at the place where they both work) and that she wants nothing more than to fix things BUT the EA has confused her completely emotionally and after devoting her feelings to the other guy she has lost them for me (but wants to get htem back and doesn;t know how). I imagine this is a typical situation for a post EA couple. or is it? Has anyone here been in similar situations on either side? been to relationship counseling? does it actually work for reconciling and rebuilding the relationship? or am I just throwing my money away and making this breakup more protracted and painful than it needs to be?
TaraMaiden Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Counselling isn't done to maintain a relationship. Counselling will not tell you what to do, or how to do it. Counselling enables opposing parties to meet on the same page, clarify points of view and be transparent about needs. It helps you compromise, understand and engage with another person to make yourself heard, and to also really hear what the other person is saying. It levels the playing field, and provides clarity, understanding and good and effective communication. Even if it leads to permanent separation. Counsellors don't advise or repair. That's your task. You two do all the hard work. The Counsellor is just there to balance things up and keep it on topic, as it were.....
Author thatdog Posted March 29, 2011 Author Posted March 29, 2011 Counselling enables opposing parties to meet on the same page, clarify points of view and be transparent about needs. Counsellors don't advise or repair. . What if one party has trouble identifying their needs? I assumed counselors had experience with these matters and hence could advise on options and ways to go about resolving issues.
Owl Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 I totally agree with Taramaiden's observations. And the marriage counselor that my wife and I used for about a year after her EA did exactly that. He was a good, neutral third party that created a safe atmosphere for the two of us to work through our issues without tearing each other apart due to how volatile our feelings were at the time. He also gave us good coping tools for dealing with these issues outside of the office...and ultimately worked on how to maintain good communication between us. There are all kinds of counselors. You may have to try several (we went through 3) before you find one that suits your situation and your own personalities/issues. But a good MC can make a huge difference if it's a "good fit" with your wife and you.
TaraMaiden Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 What if one party has trouble identifying their needs? Counselling isn't achieved in one session. It could take several, before a person can be open enough to say what they need. But if they don't, or cannot, I wouldn't out that down to any inability. I would put that down to reluctance. Most people, over time, can and will open up, and lay their cards on the table. It may take courage or simple defiance, but eventually, I think they will. If they don't, it's a safe bet they really don't want to be there, engage or work to repair it. And there won't be a blind bit of anything the other person - or for that matter, the counsellor - can do. I assumed counselors had experience with these matters and hence could advise on options and ways to go about resolving issues. They might guide, they might suggest. They might ask questions to stimulate discussion in areas the couple hadn't thought of venturing into. They may even suggest individual Counselling. But truly - they fix nothing, repair nothing, and make no effort and moves to keep people together. not part of their Job Spec. Oh and - Thanks Owl.
Author thatdog Posted March 29, 2011 Author Posted March 29, 2011 This may sound stupid, but how do you tell if the counselor is right for you? like maybe it will be easy when we get there, but given we no little about the process and haven't been to one before I imagine that even if they aren't a 'right fit' we might not know any better. are there different kinds of counselors? different kinds of techniques used? or are the mostly the same and its just a matter of personality?
TaraMaiden Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Go for referals from people you know. Ask around, and enquire whether anyone has the name of one they'd recommend. Some counsellors give a trial appointment. Talk to one at length on the 'phone and ask how they operate. Also, I'm not sure where you live, but here in the UK there are organisations who offer counselling for contributions, rather than set fees.
Owl Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Its usually easier to tell when a counselor WON'T work for you than verifying one that is the best. Our first MC was solidly "in my camp". She clearly felt my wife made the mistakes especially in having an EA. While gratifying, this certainly didn't create a situation where my wife felt comfortable in opening up and communicating. Our second was a friend of my wife's IC...worked in the same office. It quickly became obvious that they were talking back and forth...again creating an "us vs. them" atmosphere. We finally opted to use my IC as our MC, and I dropped him for individual counseling. HE made it clear from the beginning that there were no "sides" to this...and that quickly made my wife more comfortable and willing to open up. I credit him with giving us the tools we needed to save our marriage. Just simply creating an atmosphere where we could talk safely to each other was a huge help. He recommended a few books, and a few exercises as well as suggested some methods for dealing with the "issues" when we weren't in his office. My suggestion would be to seriously sit and think about what it is you hope that an MC can do for you. What do you want them to help you work on? Take that list of things with you into the office on your first visit, and use it for an exploration to determine if they "fit" with you or not.
carhill Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Our MC had a finely crafted sense of challenge and support as to 'flowing' the work process, as well as a defined plan of recovery. Had we both been sufficiently motivated and desired healthy reconciliation, his help would have been the perfect recovery tool. I'll have no issues utilizing his help for PMC, should the circumstances arise. Once someone has an affair, whether EA or PA, it is a part of that person. Any future partner needs to be aware (of the event, not necessarily details) and a full participant in the ongoing process of recovery. In my case, I had the EA and spent some of my retirement on that very expensive version of MC (Insurance brought it down to about 100 per session) and found it worth every nickel. If your GF wishes to reconcile, and you wish counseling to be a part of that process, she can agree to it and pay all or part of the cost. Everything is negotiable and no one is bound to any course of action. FWIW, and it's unclear if my annecdote is instructive, I agreed to MC and paid for it while still in the 'affair fog', because I thought something was really wrong with what was going on and I needed help clarifying it. Once I figured it out, I ended the affair and my exW and I agreed to divorce. There was a whole lot wrong and healthy decisions needed to be made. Lastly, be aware that it is possible and probably that 'trickle truth' and 'incrementalization' take place within the psyche of the cheating party. You may not yet know all of the story. The fact that your GF so easily chose breakup over counseling causes my to offer that opinion. Beware.
Woggle Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Don't waste the money on counseling. You are not even married to this woman yet and she is pulling this kind of crap. Thank you dodged a bullet and run for your life. take the money you were going to use on counseling and actually do something that you enjoy. If it is this bad before marriage how things will be a few years down the road when she meets some other guy who she has an amazing connection with.
carhill Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Background Details of the infidelity OP, I skimmed your past threads. I missed your and her ages. That info would help. TBH, I've heard this perspective (similar to your GF's) from a number of MW's over the years. It's how they 're-write' things to match up with their perspective of the moment. Given the circumstances, whether the R does end or not, you might consider some IC to assist in establishing clearer boundaries and effective communication of those boundaries. This can assist in the future in any relationship. IMO, and it's only one man's opinion, the younger you are, the less likely this will turn out well as far as recovery. If you're in your 20's, I would not be confident at all. Still a lot of maturing and changing to occur.
East7 Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 Background Details of the infidelity According to your story, I would say why would you even bother seeking counseling while you aren't even married ? Ok you love her but it seems obvious that this relationship is not her priority, she does everything to spend the less possible time with you. I agree with Woggle, if this is so bad even before getting married, what it can be when you guys are H and W and have to share more responsibilities? A relationship prior to marriage is supposed to be all sparks and bliss.. Plus if she is having a cheating behavior (How do you know it is only EA ? She comes at 5am at home...) Some women agree to get married not because they feel it, but they think it is the right thing to do, that is not a good start. IMO don't waste your money with someone who is neglecting the relationship. It can be much worse after you get married.
WorldIsYours Posted March 29, 2011 Posted March 29, 2011 According to your story, I would say why would you even bother seeking counseling while you aren't even married ? Counseling is not reserved for only married couples. But I agree this guy is just wasting his time with this immature female.
Author thatdog Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Carhill - I am 31 she is 27. From what she has said and what I have read hear and in some books I have been studying on relationships it seems the biggest issue here is that she is still not emotionally mature enough for marriage (not that I'm perfect either). I guess my hope is that she has to work out these issues anyhow and if she really is committed to working on this relationship as she says why can't it be possible for us to work on this together and see if she can evolve enough to be a serious partner. Carhill - Oh crap. just reread mypost. that was my bad mistyping. she did NOT choose to breakup. I gave her the ultimatum and she went for the counseling option. shoulda said she went with the former. guess that happnes sometimes when you're posting stuff at 3am. Porkrinds- I admit the lack of love thing is huge. But I can only really go on what she has said and her actions in regards to this. That is, since the time she ended the EA (about 1.5 weeks before I found out) she was really throwing herself into the relationship. Not going out with her friends, spending a lot of time home with me and going on dates and actually starting to be nice and encouraging again. That said it just wasn't really working because of the intimacy gap between us. Once I found out about the EA she came clean said that it wasn't so much a complete loss of love but that developing those feelings for the other guy made her emotionally confused and she was still having trouble trusting her feelings. Yes I know this sounds a lot like it could be BS but the fact is I have to choose to believe her or not and if I don't then we have no chance. Also maybe I'm too much of a romantic but i don't think a desire to fix a relationship should come from the inconvenience of children and mixed assets. I think they should come from a belief that the person you are with is right for you and a genuine desire to recapture the beauty of what you both once had before mistakes were made. If she ever did this again I would have her out the door and all her things out the window as soon as i knew. But once I have to be willing to accept as mistake and be willing to forgive. I guess I have made a similar mistake before and when i came to my senses was disgusted by what i had done and made several life changing decisions to ensure I wouldn't risk doing the same thing again. I have to hope other people can see to the problems in their behavior and resolve to change too. East7 - You are right. i can never know for sure if there weren't other affairs when she was going out, however, (and this is obv the reason I am going through so much crap to try and fix this) we have NEVER had a major fight in 3 years. She has been consistently kind, loving and understanding the entire time. Yet within a week of this EA starting there was a change in her attitude towards me. it was minor enough at first to just think she was in a bad mood but it got worse fast and in retrospect i could pinpoint pretty much the exact time she started things with him, BEFORE she told me the details.
carhill Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Carhill - Oh crap. just reread mypost. that was my bad mistyping. she did NOT choose to breakup. I gave her the ultimatum and she went for the counseling option. shoulda said she went with the former. guess that happiness sometimes when you're posting stuff at 3am. Right now, tonight, what do you want to do? IIUC, PMC is on the table or you can choose to end the engagement. Looking again at the title of the thread, counseling does not rebuild the damage done, rather facilitates the couple in their rebuilding process. It's a process and a venue and a toolbox. Up to you and her as to what you do with it and your relationship. TBH, if I had *any* love left for my exW, we might of recovered. I simply wanted her gone but was too emotionally distraught to think clearly due to issues being a caregiver. MC straightened that out. Once she knew I had no love left, she proactively ended it. I think that was smart of her. We divorced amicably, favorable to her financially. I've got my sanity back. Your path is different but I hope you can gather wisdom from the paths of others. One day at a time.
Author thatdog Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Sorry I don't know what IIUC or PMC means. could you enlighten me please? That's very strong of you to divorce amicabley. I know I am in a very bad place emotionally at the moment and I don;t think I could do what you did. I think I would be in a much worse state now if I weren;t clinging to the fact that she said she still has some feelings for me and wants to work it out. I flip flop all over the place in my thoughts about whether I can believe her on this or whether she is just saying/doing these things to placate me while we were living together. When I think about the fact it might be a lie i become enraged and start getting all these thoughts in my head about how miserable I want her life to be for what she has done to us. That said, just before she left she asked me if I wanted to join her group for a fundraiser to raise money for the Japan effort at the children's festival in May. So I take that as a good sign that she really wants to work on us being together in a months time.
carhill Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 IIUC = if I understand correctly PMC = pre-marital counseling TBH (that means 'to be honest), if you have clarity about your and her compatibility, and this cheating is situational and she's remorseful and willing to work through it with you and change herself and her boundaries to a healthy state, anything is possible. Read Owl's threads from many years ago for example of how a M can successfully recover. Yes, you're not married yet. It's relatively easy to walk away today. That's the advice you'll likely be hearing a lot of. Up to you if you want to take it.
Author thatdog Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Thanks Carhill. I've had a look through some of Owl's old posts and it is encouraging to see that some relationships can still succeed. I wonder why it is that his early posts seemed to receive so much positive feedback and support where-as mine seemed to get 90% 'she's a slut, get rid of her and be happy' responses. I note that mpost of the recent threads similar to mine have had that response to.
carhill Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 LS has changed a lot since 2004; perhaps a reflection of real life, an ever-changing journey. Also, there are different perceptions of a long marriage versus an engagement and each of us reacts to those dynamics in unique ways. Hopefully, what is offered will assist in your reflection during this difficult time. Good luck
ComputerJock Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 Owl was in a marriage, you are in a relationship with someone who doesn't seem to be mature enough to do what is right, not what her girl friend advised her to do. Do you want a wife that parties with other men (from your other post).
Author thatdog Posted March 30, 2011 Author Posted March 30, 2011 Owl was in a marriage, you are in a relationship with someone who doesn't seem to be mature enough to do what is right, not what her girl friend advised her to do. Do you want a wife that parties with other men (from your other post). That's a bit tough. I am happy for her 'party with other men' provided it's in a group situation, I can meet and know these men and she can become emotionally mature enough to distance herself if she ever encounters any innappropriate behavior from them. or maybe that's asking too much. I've always been able to remain very clear on my boundaries when in a relationship and have several close female friends that I have always been able to manage quite easily. The older I get though, the more I start to think i'm just some kind of 'freak' and if i placed the same standards on others that i place on myself I would never find a partner. (not a single one of my best friends married/single/male/female seems to come close).
ComputerJock Posted March 30, 2011 Posted March 30, 2011 You have to live by your own standards, but others live by their standards. You can't control the actions of others, but the two things I've learned being on the Earth for 64 years is you don't listen to what people say, but observe their actions. You don't listen to what people say, but look at their histories. People will tell you what they think you want to hear instead of the truth. Men are different then women. Men want to fix things. That's why you want to fix your relationship and that is why men on LS want to fix broken marriages. I don't fix things anymore, some things are not worth fixing. Is your relationship one of those?
whichwayisup Posted March 31, 2011 Posted March 31, 2011 At age 27. one has to ask why she isn't ready for marriage, for committment, to build a life, have children. How long have you two been together? Why her need to "party with other men?" 3 weeks isn't that long to wait to see a MC. If you want to atleast try to salvage this and fix things, wait and make an appointment. AS long as she is willing to work with you, and also work on herself, too. She should go to counselling on her own as well, but make sure it's still the same person who does the MC. Let her actions prove to you that she is worth fighing for, what you two share is strong enough to work through this.
Author thatdog Posted March 31, 2011 Author Posted March 31, 2011 whichwayisup - we've been together almost 3 years (next week is our anniversary ). - had our first session today. seems like counsellor thinks that hshe needs more focused personal counseling rather than us as a couple. We will still do RC and I will have a couple private sessions but most of the next few weeks are going to be focussed on her I think. thanks for the support this is a rough time. I'm having immense trouble with the first week. was kinda scary to learn that this will be going for a LOT longer than I initially thought.
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