Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 So in that other thread, you lament the fact that when you tell people you're a physicists, they act like you just said you're an axe murderer. You say it's frustrating. You speak about it at lengths, which leads me to believe that it's important for you to find a mate who can connect with your job, or at least someone who can engage with it. A few posters, myself included, suggests ways to help people connect with your topic matter. We're not telling you to change yourself, we're trying to brainstorm ways to help you handle a situation you find frustrating. The suggestions you made would not have helped to do that. The topic matter of my job is the application of mathematics to nature. It's not finding truth, the meaning of life, or any of that. It's just that simple and boring unless one is interested in it. There is no simpler explaination for what I do than to call it applied mathematics. What you were doing wasn't intelligently simplifying physics...you were saying things about it that would make any physicist wince. So my question is this: What are your expectations? on thee grounds: 1) Of dating. Who are you looking for? How would this person interact with you? I am looking for a SO with all that etails. We would interact by sharing emotional support with eachother. If they are not a scientist then we should not discuss science at all. I want someone who is either totally unintersted but vaguely familliar with it.. or who's as into it as I am . Here is why.... I remember one woman who was interested in me who insisted that I explain special relativity to her.. I tried explaining the basic consequence of a finite and invariant speed of light... that space-time is divided into three regions. The past that can effect you at the speed of light... the future that you can effect by sending a signal at the speed of light... and everywhere else. I used this diagram. http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/spacetime.gif After very slowly explaining it not more than five minutes in she was like "please stop". I learned after that no matter how someone insist unless they are themselves a science student I should refuse to discuss what I do with them. 2) About your job Exactly how would you like people to react when you tell them you're a physicist? I would like them to perhaps or nod and say that's nice... then let me change the subject to something more relateable to daily experience. Like my hobbies of cycling, gardening, gaming, or the news of the day. I try to avoid the topic of my career in polite conversation. Too much experience has taught me that I should not talk science with non scientist IF I want to be friends with them. Too often a non scientist will after I have taught them science...see me only as a dispenser of information and not a person. 3) Of us. How do you want us to respond to your posts? You have been reacting the right way with one exception. When people tell you, specifically you Kamille... that your advice is bad or has been tried and failed already you don't listen. I have shot down your suggestions because they are all things I have done before. I have been a scientist and before that a science student since 2000. I have had hundreds and hundreds of these conversations where I tell people of my interest in physics and the react like one of the following emoticons. No offense but your advice Kamile is often only from your perspective and not as useful as you would like to think it is. Can you at least see this is not about me thinking I am "so smart" or whatever? It's about other people reactions which I have realized I am not responsible for.
zengirl Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 If they are not a scientist then we should not discuss science at all. I want someone who is either totally unintersted but vaguely familliar with it.. or who's as into it as I am . Here is why.... I remember one woman who was interested in me who insisted that I explain special relativity to her.. I tried explaining the basic consequence of a finite and invariant speed of light... that space-time is divided into three regions. The past that can effect you at the speed of light... the future that you can effect by sending a signal at the speed of light... and everywhere else. I used this diagram. http://rst.gsfc.nasa.gov/Sect20/spacetime.gif After very slowly explaining it not more than five minutes in she was like "please stop". God, no wonder. My boyfriend is a computer programmer, but his degree is in Math, with a minor in Chemistry and a certificate in Computer Science. He and I still talk about Math. He's explain concepts from programming or math or somesuch to me that I didn't learn prior. However, if someone spoke slowly to me and brought out diagrams, I'd ask them to "please stop" too. It sounds like to you teaching someone is akin to talking down to them. It's really not---it's about bringing out new potential in them, potential that was always there, but just needed to be coaxed. You seem to view view a lack of particular knowledge as either a deficiency (they can't understand!) or a lack of interest (they don't want to learn) and teaching anyone anything new under those circumstances would be pretty impossible, I'd guess. (I could write about why with some pedagogy jargon. Really slowly. With diagrams. If you'd like. Kidding, kidding!) I think you can seal off the subject if you like, with people, and discuss more "relatable" things, as you say, but I don't see why you have to. You just need a new perspective on their misconceptions, lack of knowledge in particular areas, and a new way of approaching it. Or you can not talk about it. But I think that's like amputating a limb over a bad cut. Stitches would do just fine.
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 What you were doing wasn't intelligently simplifying physics...you were saying things about it that would make any physicist wince. I didn't say anything about physics, so I don't see how I could have made any physicist wince. I learned after that no matter how someone insist unless they are themselves a science student I should refuse to discuss what I do with them. One person reacting this way has made you come to the conclusion you should never try to explain your job? Ok, fair enough. I would like them to perhaps or nod and say that's nice... then let me change the subject to something more relateable to daily experience. Like my hobbies of cycling, gardening, gaming, or the news of the day. Then why not answer with : "I'm a physicist during working hours and a passionate gardener on my off time?" Oops, sorry. I shouldn't make suggestions. Mine are all bad anyways. Nevermind, just forget I'm trying to help. When people tell you, specifically you Kamille... that your advice is bad or has been tried and failed already you don't listen. I'm sorry you feel that way. I will politely stop giving you advice from now on. I have shot down your suggestions because they are all things I have done before. With all due respect, how can I guess you've done everything I suggested until you told me you had? No offense but your advice Kamile is often only from your perspective and not as useful as you would like to think it is. I never said it was. But I do enjoy giving advice. As I said, since you have no use for my advice, I will gladly stay out of your threads. Can you at least see this is not about me thinking I am "so smart" or whatever? It's about other people reactions which I have realized I am not responsible for. I never said anything about any of it being about you thinking you are "so smart" or whatever. I think, in this case, you have me confused with other posters. All the best to you Mr. Lonelyone, may you find love, solidarity and serenity.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 However, if someone spoke slowly to me and brought out diagrams, I'd ask them to "please stop" too. I did not bring out the diagram right away. I did it because the person was not understanding it when I told them verbally. Oh and by the way...every physicist since 1930 has been taught using that diagram... none of them thought it was beneath them. It sounds like to you teaching someone is akin to talking down to them. It's really not---it's about bringing out new potential in them, potential that was always there, but just needed to be coaxed. I don't want to teach my SO. I just want to relax with my SO. Also the woman in question was not a student... she was a high school drop out who lived in that particular town forever. Not everyone is you. I think you can seal off the subject if you like, with people, and discuss more "relatable" things, as you say, but I don't see why you have to. I have explained enough...
zengirl Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 I did not bring out the diagram right away. I did it because the person was not understanding it when I told them verbally. Oh and by the way...every physicist since 1930 has been taught using that diagram... none of them thought it was beneath them. You made it sound like you prepared it. I'm not saying diagrams are "beneath" anyone but if someone says, "Hey, teach me about this," I wouldn't get out a diagram unless I first said, "Hmm. . . I can't explain it fully. Mind if I pull up a diagram for you?" Diagrams are fine for formal classes, of course. Teaching one in a formal class is not the same as informally teaching one on one. I don't want to teach my SO. I just want to relax with my SO. Then. . . do that. But you've written how that's difficult to find as well. Also the woman in question was not a student... she was a high school drop out who lived in that particular town forever. Not everyone is you. Well, okay, but maybe then don't compare teaching/talking about unfamiliar subjects with everyone as being somehow impossible or wince-inducing by using a HS dropout as your example then. . . Considering who she was, she seems a poor reason to think it is impossible to ever communicate with an SO who might be interested in what you do but not have formal knowledge of the field.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 Well, okay, but maybe then don't compare teaching/talking about unfamiliar subjects with everyone as being somehow impossible or wince-inducing by using a HS dropout as your example then. . . Considering who she was, she seems a poor reason to think it is impossible to ever communicate with an SO who might be interested in what you do but not have formal knowledge of the field. She was just the most glaring example. Kamille is on the whole "Everyone is equally smart it's just our culture values certain knowledge"... kick. Which if what she said was true then that woman being a 11th grade drop out would not have made a difference. The SO's I have had and got along with best did one of two things. Either they did not try to understand what I did and just respected that I did not want to discuss it...or they were themselves scientist and did in fact understand it and due to that...did not want to discuss it. I really don't want to mix my relationship which is mostly pleasure with my job which is mostly business. I just need to meet someone who will not react negatively and rule me out as soon as I say physics. A degree in Comp sci, mathematics, etc. Just does not have this associated with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfoQsZa8F1c Having someone think that saying in response to my job "So you want to blow up the world" is a cute conversation starter is really irritating.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Mrlonely, I believe you are far, far too invested in being very "special" and "different" from all other people. Of course you are special in your ways. Almost every other person is as well. I think you'd be better served to look for commonalities with other people than to obsess upon how you are so different - though, sadly, you show no inclination at all to do so. Also, just FYI, I and probably several other people here on LS actually know physicists in real life. My daughter's boyfriend, in fact, has a MS in physics though he does not work in that field; he's in computers (but just for the record, I have a dear friend who is a physicist in the aerospace field). Just today, my daughter's boyfriend helped me figure out my new phone. I'm not scared of him, and he actually thinks I'm really smart. He thinks my daughter is too, even though she hasn't even finished college and her field is very "soft" (journalism). The fact is, all three of us are very intelligent and though our smarts are happening in different areas, we can have tremendous, stimulating conversations and tons of fun. You could be having fun with people too, instead of sitting here day after day expounding upon how your intellect sets you so very far apart from others. I think you are using that as an excuse. Frankly, I'd be surprised if even one potential girlfriend has rejected you because of her inability to scale the lofty heights of your intellect. Maybe because of how you present yourself, of which your intellect is a part.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 Mme Your not representative of the people around me. Let me ask you what race are the physicist you know. Are they members of a race that our culture thinks are supposed to be dumb?
zengirl Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Mrlonely, I believe you are far, far too invested in being very "special" and "different" from all other people. Of course you are special in your ways. Almost every other person is as well. I think you'd be better served to look for commonalities with other people than to obsess upon how you are so different - though, sadly, you show no inclination at all to do so. I agree with this. I also agree with what Mme. Chaucer says about different areas of knowledge and intelligence (though generally someone with high knowledge/success in one area that requires great intelligence will have strong overall intelligence; it's just been more efficiently applied to a particular area). I have quite enjoyed dating many men who are smart in different areas than I, and I've enjoyed learning and growing with each other. Appreciating differences is a good thing, too, as is looking for common ground.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 No, one is a plain old white guy and the other is Jewish. But now is not the time to be bringing your race into this discussion. If you believe you're being rejected because of the nature of the work you do, I don't think that tacking on that you're a person of color doing that kind of work is driving women away even more. It just doesn't add up. And, though there are plenty of racists in this culture, there are also plenty who are not. Eternal Sunshine says she has a Phd in math. She is a hot and busty blonde bombshell. I think our culture says that her "type" is supposed to be "dumb," right? She has a boyfriend, and even when she doesn't she's a dating machine. Anyhoo, that's all beside the point. Guess what. MY boyfriend is a truck driver. Now, that's frightening.
allenmj Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Mme Your not representative of the people around me. Let me ask you what race are the physicist you know. Are they members of a race that our culture thinks are supposed to be dumb? Ok, I cannot bite my tongue any longer. I have lurked your threads and posts mrlonely since I joined, and at first, I almost bought what you we're selling. This post here is the last straw man. You're going on all about how your job is too uppity up for the common folk to understand and that scares woman away. Then, all of a sudden, a poster comes with a great post that debunks your entire theory and then you play the race card? No. No way. The problem isn't your job man, it isn't your education. I doubt that maybe 1% of the people you meet, male or female, look at you with intimidation because of what you know. I certainly am not impressed. I don't have a college degree, and I laugh at people who think they are special because they have one. I answer 911 lines for a living and dispatch emergency equipment. Everyone I deal with on a daily basis is equal to me no matter what. No, the problem lies elsewhere. Stop trying to blame your false greatness for the miseries in your life and seek counseling. Your every day mewing about how life is unfair because of your job is getting tired. I don't mean any offense, I really don't. I just think you need a wake up call. Good luck man.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 You are a fool if you think that's not part of it. People treat people different based on race. I'm sure a white man could talk about being a physicist and not get some of the reactions I get. I have been told I "talk to formal" "too white" and variations on that too many times. So I really dont give a rip Allenmj.. IT is what it is.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 Mme... That a hot busty bombshell has a BF hardly proves me wrong. Zen. I am not invested in "being special". Once again I don't come here and act like I do in real life. I come here to discuss specific issues that come up. This is just one that people don't seem willing to drop no matter what.
allenmj Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 You are a fool if you think that's not part of it. People treat people different based on race. I'm sure a white man could talk about being a physicist and not get some of the reactions I get. I have been told I "talk to formal" "too white" and variations on that too many times. So I really dont give a rip Allenmj.. IT is what it is. Come on man, now you're just flailing around at random. You can blame race or education or whatever all you want, but I promise you this, there are happy, successful people of all races and colors and educations in loving, lasting relationships out there. You aren't the only combination of race and education in the entire world. Your relationship problems lie elsewhere, my friend. Seek them out and conquer them.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Author Posted March 26, 2011 Come on man, now you're just flailing around at random. You can blame race or education or whatever all you want, but I promise you this, there are happy, successful people of all races and colors and educations in loving, lasting relationships out there. You aren't the only combination of race and education in the entire world. Your relationship problems lie elsewhere, my friend. Seek them out and conquer them. Says a member of a race that used to hang members of my race for learning how to read.... Within living memory of my elders.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Mme... This is just one that people don't seem willing to drop no matter what[/i]. Aw, come on. You have started numerous threads about it, and you have hijacked many other threads to talk about it more. From what I have gathered about you, Mrlonely, there are other forces at play that people are picking up on when dealing with you in person, and those are what keeps them at a distance from you. If you don't want to look at that, and just want to blame your social problems on being a "physicist" or not white, that's your prerogative. Carry on.
zengirl Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 You are a fool if you think that's not part of it. People treat people different based on race. I'm sure a white man could talk about being a physicist and not get some of the reactions I get. I have been told I "talk to formal" "too white" and variations on that too many times. So I really dont give a rip Allenmj.. IT is what it is. What race are you, since you bring it up? I'm assuming you're not Asian. We're all supposed to have science and math degrees. I'm only half, and look white, which explains why I never lived up to my potential in classical music or math. You do speak about your subjects here very/too formal. And I'm half-white and half-Japanese (and who talks more formal than Japanese folks) but that's got nothing to do with race. I've met many educated black and Latino men, living in the various places I've lived. I do understand that black men (and women!) face this attitude, and it starts young (I teach predominantly African American populations, as they are -- in my school district -- much more likely to come from poorer homes and have poorer test scores, as a result; I deal with the kids they're worried won't pass the state tests). So do poor whites, though; they just word it differently. It's really about class more than race. Upper/middle class black Americans don't face it in their predominantly upper/middle class communities. It's part of the class warfare Americans have been sold: "Don't trust anyone too smart, too educated," etc. It's how the poor and uneducated are told to feel special, and it's unhealthy and unproductive. Everyone has pride. And pride is easy to manipulate.
allenmj Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Says a member of a race that used to hang members of my race for learning how to read.... Within living memory of my elders. OMG, did you really just go there? What makes you think I'm white? Congratulations, for the entire LS community, you just gave yourself up as a whiny, naive, sad little man. I don't for a moment believe you have an advanced degree in physics. In fact, I'm starting to think you might just be the most successful troll any forums has ever seen. I think a lot of people will take you a lot less seriously now.
mr.dream merchant Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Mr. LO has great points, and what he's saying is true. Not changing yourself for anyone else? Good stuff. I'd imagine the women who are interested in him expect him to be a stereotypical black guy. So when he proves their prejudgement wrong, it's a culture shock for those women, and they are no longer interested. All in all, OP you've got some class A haters. Not surprising who they are either. Seriously these chicks need to go out and get laid. Maybe then they'll stop harping on people all damn day.
LeaningIntoTheMuse Posted March 27, 2011 Posted March 27, 2011 Very true. I'd rather be alone than compromise my values, or be less nice. Women all want jerks. I hate to bring that up again, but it's very true. If they're not dating a jerk, they WANT to date a jerk.
Kamille Posted March 27, 2011 Posted March 27, 2011 I'd imagine the women who are interested in him expect him to be a stereotypical black guy. So when he proves their prejudgement wrong, it's a culture shock for those women, and they are no longer interested. Seriously these chicks need to go out and get laid. Maybe then they'll stop harping on people all damn day. Good plan! I'm gonna go bang my hot, smart, funny, charming, African-Canadian boyfriend. :lmao:
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 27, 2011 Author Posted March 27, 2011 mr.dream merchant I'd imagine the women who are interested in him expect him to be a stereotypical black guy. So when he proves their prejudgement wrong, it's a culture shock for those women, and they are no longer interested. Yes many women who are initially interested think that. Which is why I value it more when a woman has gotten to know those things about me as a friend or coworker or something first. If they are still interested then I know it's because of who I am more than who they think I should be. Zengirl What race are you, since you bring it up? I am precisely 3/8 African American, 3/8 white and 2/8 American Indian (Prairie Band Potawatomi and Pamunkey/Mattaponi. Those last two are closely related to eachother and were the core of the Powhatan chiefdom.) I'm assuming you're not Asian. We're all supposed to have science and math degrees. I'm only half, and look white, which explains why I never lived up to my potential in classical music or math. Yeah I know the stereotype. Your all supposed to have parents who push you like Khan Souphonosophone (the Laotian neighbor from "King of the Hill") :LMFAO: There is pressure to be a so called "model minority". You do speak about your subjects here very/too formal. And I'm half-white and half-Japanese (and who talks more formal than Japanese folks) but that's got nothing to do with race. You know that and I know that but there exist something known as "social identity threat". Which can hold a black or hispanic person back in America. Have any of your students ever said something along the lines of "reading is for white people"? I've met many educated black and Latino men, living in the various places I've lived. I do understand that black men (and women!) face this attitude, and it starts young (I teach predominantly African American populations, as they are -- in my school district -- much more likely to come from poorer homes and have poorer test scores, as a result; I deal with the kids they're worried won't pass the state tests). So you know what society expects of me and that I'm not giving society that. Society sees certain images of black (and American Indian for that matter) people. Images that don't really include higher education. So a woman will express interest in me a "black" man.. Expecting certain things... then when I quickly prove to not be those things they aren't interested. Quite a few I am sure expect all black men to be thugs. So do poor whites, though; they just word it differently. It's really about class more than race. Upper/middle class black Americans don't face it in their predominantly upper/middle class communities. Actually among middle class black people the same thing happens. We have the same societal pressures. It's part of the class warfare Americans have been sold: "Don't trust anyone too smart, too educated," etc. It's how the poor and uneducated are told to feel special, and it's unhealthy and unproductive. Everyone has pride. And pride is easy to manipulate. Yes. That is very true here in America. Class warfare has been a tool of politics here since the Iroquois had their first elections.... @Kamille Like I have tried to say it's very possible that you are an outlier and that your experiences are not generalizable. Plus... African Canadian... if you are in Canda or even the US... there is a whole different history and social dynamic going on than what's here in Chicago IL... The most segregated city in America. http://chicagoist.com/2010/10/31/chicago_still_the_most_segregated_c.php
Woggle Posted March 27, 2011 Posted March 27, 2011 I fully agree. If your life is worse with them in it what is the point. I am 100% for happy and loving relationships but if you have to walk on eggshells to please them then it is not worth it if you ask me.
Author Mrlonelyone Posted March 27, 2011 Author Posted March 27, 2011 I fully agree. If your life is worse with them in it what is the point. I am 100% for happy and loving relationships but if you have to walk on eggshells to please them then it is not worth it if you ask me. Exactly! If one has to constantly worry about offending the person who's your SO then something is wrong very wrong. The whole what I do question was a tool for picking at this topic. Should I have to lie or be extra cute about what I do? I don't think so. In an average conversation I don't dwell on it... however I just feel a change come over certain people when I mention it. ________________ This all speaks to the basic theme I was trying to get at with the OP... In an effort to get this thread back on track. It's not always easy being true to yourself. Some people won't like it. One has to be willing to PO some people and have fewer friends. However what friends and allies I do have are of a higher quality. I am interested in quality friends and a quality SO. The numbers are not important. So putting people off by how I speak, act, dress, talk is not a big deal. The right people for me will not have a problem with it.
westrock Posted March 27, 2011 Posted March 27, 2011 Mme Your not representative of the people around me. Let me ask you what race are the physicist you know. Are they members of a race that our culture thinks are supposed to be dumb? You really believe that is what society's view is on your race? And more precisely, society's view of how you should be? Your comment is very telling about your own internal fears and your response to those fears. What you need to realize is that your own response to that fear is what is likely causing you problems. From what you've written, you probably have a deep seated fear that society thinks because of your race you are supposed to be dumb. The more you believe this is how society views you (and it may be your experience), the more you want to demonstrate that you are not "dumb" but actually the opposite (ie. a genius). Unfortunately, some people deal with it by making sure they are "smarter" than everyone and making sure that everyone knows it. It's probably no accident you've chosen a career where one is generally considered "smart". But, what you seem to have done is to decide that your career is so complicated to explain that the average person can never treat you as "dumb" and the average person must be the one who is "dumb" and you must be someone who is just very smart. However, you are now puzzled why people treat you the way they do. But, your frustrations in people's response to your complicated explanation of what you do only reinforces your belief that they must be the "dumb" ones and they have to conclude you are "smart". But all of this is not a reflection of their views of you but more a reflection of your views that they are judging you. For someone whose profession is based on concepts of relatively, it's amazing that you can't see how you are acting from the vantage point of others. Unfortunately, with your approach, you appear to others as being arrogant (whether it's true or not) which turns off people. This has to do with your perceptions of society and your fear of being considered "dumb". You need to focus your attention on your fears. If you were less concerned about what others think of you, you'll discover that people actually are very interested in what you do, you just don't realize it. Instead of cringing when they ask what you do, welcome it and explain it in simple terms that they can understand. I think pulling out that diagram to that high school dropout is an example of how you act. It may be basic to every physicist since 1930, but it does nothing for the average person. It's actually a subconscious ploy for the other person to conclude you're smart, and they're the dumb one. I did a simple search on youtube about special theory of relativity, and found a great simple video that a lay person could understand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rl3Z9yCTn8
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