johan Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 I have success when I relax and just talk to a woman. No flirting or trying to impress. It's never a good idea to try to impress, at first or at any other point in a relationship. And flirting should come a bit later. In fact, you might as well just let her do that. If she's interested, she will. If you have a decent sense of humor and aren't wound up like a spring or tongue-tied, then you're more likely to make a real connection. If there's no real connection, then just let it go.
Knittress Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 What makes you think those guys were trying to impress you? I regularly tell women about stuff I do/did without feeling attracted to them or wanting to impress them. It's for the sakes of making a conversation. I told them stuff, they told me stuff and not a f*ck was given that day. You're reading between the lines of what men say. If a guy is passionate about photography he might just want to talk to someone about his passion. He might not at all be into you. Just because a guy speaks to you about stuff he does, doesn't mean he wants your p*ssy, get off your high horse. Haha, because it's really OBVIOUS. Their pupils dilate to the size of dinner plates and they look like a starving velociraptor about to pounce. If you were a woman, you'd definitely recognize this as typical male courtship strutting.
Nexus One Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) Haha, because it's really OBVIOUS. Their pupils dilate to the size of dinner plates and they look like a starving velociraptor about to pounce. If you were a woman, you'd definitely recognize this as typical male courtship strutting. What I'm trying to say is it wouldn't be the first time women misread the intentions and motives of men by trying to read between the lines of their words and/or actions. I guess this is a point where men and women differ. I get the idea many women focus on the smallest of details in men to pick up hints, but men look for the most obvious proof to establish if a woman likes them or not. If a woman talked to me about her job, hobbies or passions I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that. Also, I've tried to notice dilating pupils in people, it's next to impossible to notice unless there's a significant change in ambient lighting. PS: My previous reply was meant for the OP, but granted it might as well be for any woman who shares a similar opinion. Meant no offense by it though, regardless of the firm wording. Edited March 26, 2011 by Nexus One
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 What I'm trying to say is it wouldn't be the first time women misread the intentions and motives of men by trying to read between the lines of their words and/or actions. I guess this is a point where men and women differ. I get the idea many women focus on the smallest of details in men to pick up hints, but men look for the most obvious proof to establish if a woman likes them or not. If a woman talked to me about her job, hobbies or passions I wouldn't draw any conclusions from that. Also, I've tried to notice dilating pupils in people, it's next to impossible to notice unless there's a significant change in ambient lighting. It's not talking about the job, passion and hobbies that's the issue. Of course two people on a date are going to talk about job, passions and hobbies. It's the way jobs, passions and hobbies are talked about. Good date: it's a dialogue with about equal speaking turns, and lots of topics naturally flowing from each person's replies. Trying to impress date: It's mostly a monologue. Example one: Alex: "What do you do?" Kylie: "I work on a pig farm" Alex: "Pig farm! " Kylie: "Yeah! (laugh)I get that a lot but really it's not that bad. Stinky but the little buggers sure are entertaining. Alex: "And delicious!" Kylie: "Indeed. What do you do?" Alex: "Nothing quite as entertaining as a pig farm worker. I'm working on genetically engineering gravity resistant pets". Kylie: "What?! that sounds fascinating!" Alex: "I like it for sure. Hey! Maybe I could engineer a gravity-free pig!" Example two Alex: "What do you do?" Kylie: "I work on a pig farm" Alex: "Really. I work on a secret project. It involves engineering gravity resistant pets." Kylie: "You're kidding!" Alex; "No, I'm serious. It's a lot of hard work but I'm working with the leaders in the field. My boss is demanding but we make it happen. We're really close to a breakthrough. I love this ****. It's my life". Kylie: " It's good to follow your passions" Alex: "Yes. Definitely. After this gig I plan on applying to NASA to become an astronaut. It's a challenge. But I like a good challenge. Plus, I'm in shape right now, you know, I work out every day, but I figure training for NASA will give me the fitness boost I need to be in top shape." Kylie: "ah yes, NASA! Astronaut! How awesome" Alex: "yes it is. I'm a very driven guy. You need to be if you want to become an astronaut". and on and on.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Kamile I don't think the problem in the second example is that the man is doing a monologue... the problem is that he may be too ambitious for pig farm woman to date without feeling inadequate. If Alex is full of crap and making up stuff you have a point. NASA astronaughts tend to be people with MS's and PhD's in genetically engineering gravity resistant pigs..and they get married....to women with the drive to become congressmen. (Gabrielle Giffords and her hubby Mark Kelly anyone) Gabbie:What do you do Mark? Mark:I'm a NASA Astronaught I'm a very driven guy. You need to be if you want to become an astronaut". How about you? Gabbie:I'm a congresswoman. It's a lot of hard work but I'm working with the leaders in the field. My boss is demanding but we make it happen. We're really close to a breakthrough. I love this ****. It's my life". Then they talk about their passions.
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Kamile I don't think the problem in the second example is that the man is doing a monologue... the problem is that he may be too ambitious for pig farm woman to date without feeling inadequate. If Alex is full of crap and making up stuff you have a point. NASA astronaughts tend to be people with MS's and PhD's in genetically engineering gravity resistant pigs..and they get married....to women with the drive to become congressmen. (Gabrielle Giffords and her hubby Mark Kelly anyone) Gabbie:What do you do Mark? Mark:I'm a NASA Astronaught I'm a very driven guy. You need to be if you want to become an astronaut". How about you? Gabbie:I'm a congresswoman. It's a lot of hard work but I'm working with the leaders in the field. My boss is demanding but we make it happen. We're really close to a breakthrough. I love this ****. It's my life". Then they talk about their passions. That wasn't the point I was making. In fact, let's pretend Kylie owns her farm and is super passionate about pig farming and is winning awards for eco-friendly-green farming. Too bad Alex never got to find out about it . Let's not look down on anyone based on (in this case fictional) occupation. The point is: conversation 1 has more back and forth is more entertaining. Which conversation would you rather have? Flip the names. Say Alex is Alexa and Kylie is Kyle.
Woggle Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Most people on first dates are trying to make a good impression.
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 That wasn't the point I was making. In fact, let's pretend Kylie owns her farm and is super passionate about pig farming and is winning awards for eco-friendly-green farming. Too bad Alex never got to find out about it . Let's not look down on anyone based on (in this case fictional) occupation. The point is: conversation 1 has more back and forth is more entertaining. Which conversation would you rather have? Flip the names. Say Alex is Alexa and Kylie is Kyle. Wanted to add: the advantage to conversation 1 is also that it leaves a lot to the imagination. Whereas after a date filled with conversation 2, you probably feel like you know everything you need to know about the person, their job, etc. Intrigue goes a long way in the first few weeks of dating.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 The point is: conversation 1 has more back and forth is more entertaining. Which conversation would you rather have? Flip the names. Say Alex is Alexa and Kylie is Kyle. To be honest the first one sounds like small talk and BSing which I don't enjoy. Here is how I like the what do you do part of the introduction to go.. Me:What do you do? Them:I work making widgets and sprockets. You? Me:I am a theoretical physicist and study the big bang. Them:Oh ok sounds hard? Me:Yeah I'm lucky to do something I like? How do you like your work? How long have you been doing it? When it's going bad they answer... Them:Fine, a couple years. So your working on a new way to blow up the world (No fooling I have heard that more times than I can count. It was funny the first few times not anymore.) :| When It's going good they answer.... Them: I love what I do widgets and sprockets are so practical and useful. People just don't know how much of their life depends on them. I have only been doing it a couple of years....
Nexus One Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Note though that I wasn't talking about dating situations, that could indeed change the dynamic depending on the guy's character.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Wanted to add: the advantage to conversation 1 is also that it leaves a lot to the imagination. Whereas after a date filled with conversation 2, you probably feel like you know everything you need to know about the person, their job, etc. Intrigue goes a long way in the first few weeks of dating. The problems with conversation two IRL in my dates is this. When people try to joke about what I do they do a very bad job of it.... the problem I have Kamile is that when I say I am a theoretical Physicist it stops most people dead in their tracks. They are tounge tied. No matter how I say it. If I say "Nothing quite as entertaining as a pig farm worker. I'm working on a study of the cosmology of the big bang and the first few hundred thousand years afterwards". (The actual topic of my thesis by the way.) They don't say.. "What?! that sounds fascinating!" They say. You mean "Cosmetology"? They say. Oh...I don't know what to say to that. Their body language changes and they shrink away and disengage like I just said I was an axe murderer.
Knittress Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 The problems with conversation two IRL in my dates is this. When people try to joke about what I do they do a very bad job of it.... the problem I have Kamile is that when I say I am a theoretical Physicist it stops most people dead in their tracks. They are tounge tied. No matter how I say it. If I say "Nothing quite as entertaining as a pig farm worker. I'm working on a study of the cosmology of the big bang and the first few hundred thousand years afterwards". (The actual topic of my thesis by the way.) They don't say.. "What?! that sounds fascinating!" They say. You mean "Cosmetology"? They say. Oh...I don't know what to say to that. Their body language changes and they shrink away and disengage like I just said I was an axe murderer. Eeeeeeh... maybe you sound pretentious? You do come across as a tad condescending at times. Maybe the awkward silence is not so much intimidation but stems from the other party feeling a tad put off by your delivery? Do YOU think other people ought to be starstruck and impressed just because you're a theoretical physicist?? What you deem trifling 'small talk' is part of the vital process of building rapport.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Eeeeeeh... maybe you sound pretentious? You do come across as a tad condescending at times. Maybe the awkward silence is not so much intimidation but stems from the other party feeling a tad put off by your delivery? I guess that's possible. I usually am not that direct about saying it. I just fit it into the dialogue that kamille had written.. Just like her gravity resistant pets or whatever. Do YOU think other people ought to be starstruck and impressed just because you're a theoretical physicist?? No I don't think that at all. In fact people who act "startruck" are a big turn off to me. I don't want them to be that way about what I do. What you deem trifling 'small talk' is part of the vital process of building rapport. I didn't call it trifling as in beneath me or something. That's your word not mine. Small talk is talking without a topic. Talking just to talk. I just don't like it because I often don't know what to say. I like to chit chat about a topic...but talking just to hear ourselves speak feels akward to me. I try to chat with the other person about them. Ask them what they do or come up with a topic for conversation... you know like the news or weather or clothes or something....anything.
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 The problems with conversation two IRL in my dates is this. When people try to joke about what I do they do a very bad job of it.... We're all really bad about joking about other people's jobs, names, identities. Learn to be graceful about it. Accept it for what it is: an attempt to connect. the problem I have Kamile is that when I say I am a theoretical Physicist it stops most people dead in their tracks. They are tounge tied. Yeah, most people have no idea what I do for a living either. I consider it's up to me to make it into an interesting tidbit. It's up to me to help people connect with my profession. [/ "Nothing quite as entertaining as a pig farm worker. I'm working on a study of the cosmology of the big bang and the first few hundred thousand years afterwards". (The actual topic of my thesis by the way.) They don't say.. "What?! that sounds fascinating!" They say. You mean "Cosmetology"? They say. Oh...I don't know what to say to that. What about answering with a graceful teasing joke? "Yes, exactly, I'm trying to figure out how to apply make up on the sun". Their body language changes and they shrink away and disengage like I just said I was an axe murderer. It is up to you to help them connect. I found that when I spoke about my thesis, people often assumed they couldn't engage with it. There's this whole aura around theses where people assume it's got to be complicated. So, instead, I would answer the question "What do you do?" by describing some of the more interesting aspects of what it entails in day to day life. Ex: "I interview people about XYZ issue"; "I try to figure out how the government could improve its policy on XYZ."
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 I Small talk is talking without a topic. Talking just to talk. Yet, in the example, there was a topic: jobs. Why would you feel there wasn't one? And not only was there a topic, there was also a subtext: "figuring out if we click". I'm getting a sense that you're a very serious person. Are you?
fishtaco Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 This is my experience. It all depends on if the woman likes you or not. If you have some spiel. Go up to a girl, she rejects you. Go up to a second girl with the same spiel, but this time, she happens to like you, score. Same spiel, same bat time, same bat channel. Just like that recent thread about this guy and woman were married for 50 years or something like that. He started liking her at 6, then finally got her to go out at 17, or something like that. So... is that romantic or creepy? Answer... depends on if she appreciates it. That's just how it is. It's not uncommon for a failed approach to, well, seem lame, because women don't want any man they're not interested to hit on them. They want to be in the world where men can detect using their mind reading powers, and automatically not hit on a woman if she's not interested, and automatically hit on her if she is. How many women does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one, she holds the light bulb while the world revolves around her -- My second old-school joke of the day. And it's just a joke ladies, don't take it too seriously. Tell me one about men and we'll call it even, let's not start a fight. Anyway, hence you'll read a lot of women complain about how annoying it is that men are hitting up on them. But when faced with a hottie, she'll be like... I'm sending the vibe, how come he's not hitting on me? If the woman likes you, your fumbling attempt will seem cute. That's just how people are. We give breaks to people we find attractive. However, once rejected, if you keep going anyway, hoping to change her mind, then you are traveling very close to creepy land. Hence my approach, is basically, optionally warm her up, because if you surprise her, she'll give you a defensive no without thinking. Then go in and ask. If I get a no, I'm outta there. I don't chase. I don't play into their game of hard to get. I don't waste my time or hers. Some women will probably think then that means they're not worthy much to me. See, this is the part that confuses men. On one hand, go away and leave me alone, on the other hand, try harder because then it shows I'm worth it. Well, I don't play that. I don't like women that think that way. So I think of it as a filtering mechanism. I skip them, they skip me, mutually beneficial.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) Kamile The thing is what I do is very different from what you do? I mean how does the big bang effect peoples daily lives? There's this whole aura around theses where people assume it's got to be complicated. Well the thing is a thesis in theoretical physics usually is. "Motion of charged test particles in Reissner--Nordström spacetime" http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1103/1103.1807v2.pdf or Ultraviolet Complete Quantum Gravity http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1008/1008.2482v4.pdf There is a reason "hard" sciences are called "hard" sciences they are freaking hard. Hard to understand and hard to explain to any meaningful extent. At least the big bang is something that has been the subject of so many documentaries that one would think anyone with a lick of curiosity about physics would know of it. My way of connecting is to mention what I do then change the subject if the other person would let me. Kamile one more thing. With all due respect. Social scientist aren't really in the same boat as physical scientist when it comes to these issues. The "hard sciences" are by our culture placed on a level equal to sorcery and magic. I might as well be saying Clattu, verratta, Nicto and waving a magic wand. There is a reason that the wizards of our fairy tales are never married. I am not a serious person by any means. I joke and such all the time. I was on a vacation lately where of all the people in the resort that I stayed at one of those I befriended and enjoyed the company of was mentally retarded. I liked that he did not try to compare us. I also befriended an artist... he too did not try to compare with me. He just did his art and I appreciated the genius of his art. (Just as I appreciated the genius of my opera singing friends talent). Edited March 26, 2011 by Mrlonelyone
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 This is my experience. It all depends on if the woman likes you or not. If you have some spiel. Go up to a girl, she rejects you. Go up to a second girl with the same spiel, but this time, she happens to like you, score. Same spiel, same bat time, same bat channel. Just like that recent thread about this guy and woman were married for 50 years or something like that. He started liking her at 6, then finally got her to go out at 17, or something like that. So... is that romantic or creepy? Answer... depends on if she appreciates it. The above and everything else you said I agree with 100%. Having the virtual mental telepathy to know if their batting their eyelashes is interest or just being friendly. If they like you then you are a wonderful attentive guy. If you are a oddball like me then you are a stalker worthy of no consideration.
Kamille Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Here's what I suggest you do. Tell people what you do in your day to day life. Break it down. What did you do at work this week that you found interesting, which someone, say me, could understand and relate too? If need be, break it down to a specific experiment, or to a cool instrument that you used. Make it concrete. If you mostly study hard theory with no experimentation, talk about the friggin theorists. You say you love Newton, well tell them : "I'm a physicists. It mostly involves trying to figure out what made Newton so brilliant. (Follow with a Did you know comment about Newton)." Don't expect people to be able to speak up to your topic. And accept their attempts at trying to understand it. People make mistakes about my job all the time. It's normal. Heck, I don't know what most jobs involve, why would I assume people should know about mine? I may only be a social scientist, but that doesn't mean I never faced the challenge of having to explain what I do to people who have no idea. In fact, apart from teachers, most people have to accept that others simply won't "get" their job. And besides, it could be worst than being a physicists. You could be... An accountant! Imagine the reactions you would get from that. (Not disrespect to accountants, but really, I never know what to say when I meet an accountant. I have historically had a much easier time striking conversations with physicists).
Imajerk17 Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Guys, I think Kamille especially gave you some gold. So many of you think that the conversation on a date is all about exchanging data. It's not. It's as much about vibing. In the "good" example Kamille gave, the girl threw something out and the guy added to it, in a way that made the girl feel good. He subcommunicated that he was comfortable and that he wasn't in a rush to impress her. In the "bad" example she gave, the girl threw something out and the guy did not. He instead insisted upon trying to wow her with he does for a living. He came across as trying too hard just from the words on the screen. Guys, in the end you will get plenty of chances to talk candidly about yourself. Don't be in such a rush.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Kamille.... I have been told that mentioning the likes of Newton or Einstein is bad. It makes it sound like I am trying to say I am so smart etc. For example if someone says "cosmology what's that". I used to say Do you know what Einstein did for a living...I do that. I would only mention him because 99.999% of everyone knows who he is. I would rather be an accountant. Then no one would be fascinated by my job or worse by someone who can do such a job. I don't want to be fascinating I just am. @Imajerk I can see how what she said applies to most people. However there is just no way to say one is a scientist that does not get that "Wow your a scientist" reaction that I get. Perhaps one needs to have lived it.
P&R Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 Here's what I suggest you do. Tell people what you do in your day to day life. Break it down. What did you do at work this week that you found interesting, which someone, say me, could understand and relate too? If need be, break it down to a specific experiment, or to a cool instrument that you used. Make it concrete. If you mostly study hard theory with no experimentation, talk about the friggin theorists. You say you love Newton, well tell them : "I'm a physicists. It mostly involves trying to figure out what made Newton so brilliant. (Follow with a Did you know comment about Newton)." Don't expect people to be able to speak up to your topic. And accept their attempts at trying to understand it. People make mistakes about my job all the time. It's normal. Heck, I don't know what most jobs involve, why would I assume people should know about mine? I may only be a social scientist, but that doesn't mean I never faced the challenge of having to explain what I do to people who have no idea. In fact, apart from teachers, most people have to accept that others simply won't "get" their job. And besides, it could be worst than being a physicists. You could be... An accountant! Imagine the reactions you would get from that. (Not disrespect to accountants, but really, I never know what to say when I meet an accountant. I have historically had a much easier time striking conversations with physicists).Maybe he would be better served by saying something along these lines: Girl: So what do you do MrLonely? Mr. Lonely: Smile* It's my job to find out the truth behind this universe! At this point she'll probably be intrigued and want to know more. My advice would give her a dumbed down version. In my public speaking class I was taught to tailor your speech to your audience. From how I see you describe your job, I'm seeing a lot of technical terms. The average person will have no idea what you're talking about. Dumb it down as much as possible, and avoid technical terms, and abstract words. This a speech tactic that helps you connect to your audience, and it is a technique that can be brought into a casual conversation. Another thing to remember is it's not just what you say, it is how you say it. This includes tone of voice, body language, etc.
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 P&R That's precisely what I end up doing. However I open with the technical terms in hopes whoever I'm talking to will get them... then if they ask me to simplify it I do. If I come in speaking in a oversimplified way...then there is a good chance I end up being accused of "talking down" to people. While if I hit someone with the full jargon..then they ask me to tone it down they can't complain that I'm treating them like their dumb. See what I mean?
Imajerk17 Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 (edited) Kamille.... I have been told that mentioning the likes of Newton or Einstein is bad. It makes it sound like I am trying to say I am so smart etc. For example if someone says "cosmology what's that". I used to say Do you know what Einstein did for a living...I do that. I would only mention him because 99.999% of everyone knows who he is. I would rather be an accountant. Then no one would be fascinated by my job or worse by someone who can do such a job. I don't want to be fascinating I just am. @Imajerk I can see how what she said applies to most people. However there is just no way to say one is a scientist that does not get that "Wow your a scientist" reaction that I get. Perhaps one needs to have lived it. Why not make a joke about it when she asks, and then tell her you are a scientist: You: "I'm a male prostitute. I go over to rich bored housewives in my plumbers uniform and ... clean their pipes." Her: "hahaha. " You: "I do really good work. Most of my business comes from referrals, if you know what I mean..." Her: "Hahahaha" You: "Actually I'm a scientist." Her: "Oh wow! I barely got by high school chemistry." You: "Haha, I get that a lot. Ever since I got a telescope for Christmas as a little kid, I was always fascinated by the mysteries of the universe when I was growing up, and now I get to geek out on this stuff for a living. It's great..." Her: "I bet it is..." You: "It is. I'm telling you, I'm so going to solve the mystery of life by this time next week! ... So how was your day?" Edited March 26, 2011 by Imajerk17
Mrlonelyone Posted March 26, 2011 Posted March 26, 2011 That does not work because what I do isn't solving the mysteries of life.....:/ I apply mathematics to the fundamental constituents and interactions of nature. If someone finds that too complicated to understand then NEXT!
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