Author confusedinkansas Posted April 15, 2011 Author Posted April 15, 2011 shattered - this is exactly the point I've tried to get across. You said it brilliantly. Thank You. It's never good when infidelity is involved in a relationship at all. It affects some people one way & others another way. The trouble that I run into here is that the BS refuses to see that. They feel that everyone should behave the way they are. Everyone should be totally broken down that's been cheated on. It's just not the case. We're all wired differently. Which is why many refuse to believe the story I tell of my husband. Many BS's here think that I flat out refuse to see their side. (not true) But I flat out know they refuse to see the other side. Or to see if they had any involvement in the downfall of their relationship. We don't deserve to be stoned or walk around with Scarlet A's on our sweaters. We are not bad people.
ShatteredReality Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 shattered - this is exactly the point I've tried to get across. You said it brilliantly. Thank You. It's never good when infidelity is involved in a relationship at all. It affects some people one way & others another way. The trouble that I run into here is that the BS refuses to see that. They feel that everyone should behave the way they are. Everyone should be totally broken down that's been cheated on. It's just not the case. We're all wired differently. Which is why many refuse to believe the story I tell of my husband. Many BS's here think that I flat out refuse to see their side. (not true) But I flat out know they refuse to see the other side. Or to see if they had any involvement in the downfall of their relationship. We don't deserve to be stoned or walk around with Scarlet A's on our sweaters. We are not bad people. Like I said...I mostly played watcher on this one...lol....but I am glad I finally put some words together that made sense . I tend to sort of trip over what I am trying to say. Anyhow - I agree and I think you're an asset to this site because you do strive to understand both perspectives - it's nice to come across someone with an open enough mind to admit faults on both sides but still move forward to something better rather than wallow in a puddle of misery for the sake of wallowing...Sympathy is given freely in the beginning of any bad situation, but once a person just sits in that filth of their own accord for too long it eventually turns to apathy.
Snowflower Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 - snip - it's nice to come across someone with an open enough mind to admit faults on both sides but still move forward to something better rather than wallow in a puddle of misery for the sake of wallowing...Sympathy is given freely in the beginning of any bad situation, but once a person just sits in that filth of their own accord for too long it eventually turns to apathy. I can understand what you both are saying here. At some point, one has to move on. Heck, I struggled for a long time in my own recovery after my H's infidelity. I wasn't sure I could ever get past it. But I am...slowly. I think what some have a problem with here is that a WS is telling the BS that they need to get over it. That is the last thing most BS want to hear...heck, some probably heard from their own WS at some point IRL. Also, WS can't possibly understand exactly what it feels like to be a BS. Sure, a BS can tell their WS everything that they feel. I know I have told my H pretty much every freakin' detail of pain and misery. He held me close as I cried. Infidelity is weird like that...the one who hurt you sometimes also is the one to comfort you. But, like other WS, my H still won't ever know exactly how it felt to be betrayed like that.
drifter777 Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) cik & shattered: I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore but the two of you make me ill. Your a mutual admiration society of cheater cheerleaders and are as closed-minded as you accuse your detractors of being. I never claim to understand a cheaters point of view yet you both consistently claim to understand my point of view. You don't. You can't. Stop trying. Stop lying. Edited April 15, 2011 by drifter777
What_Next Posted April 15, 2011 Posted April 15, 2011 Like you drifter I had decided to not post to this thread any more either, also like you because reading the drivel that CIK spouts makes me want to vomit as well. However, in the spirit of debate I've decided to say my peace again. Snowflower, you basically took the words right out of my mouth. What CIK seems to constantly spout about is telling the BS to just "get over it". Her claim to understand both sides of infidelity is just that as far as I am concerned a claim. If she had experienced it she would not be saying what she is saying. Anyway, my own personal dislike for CIK and her ilk aside this thread does have value. ShatteredReality, I do agree with you regarding the attitude that the WS has to grovel or forever be classified as a bad person, nonsense. However, recovery is a process, it doesn't have a clock on it and each BS needs to find their own way through the journey. I am only a little more than 6 months out past D-day myself and while the emotions are a little easier to deal with they are still there. If my wife ever chooses to utter the words "get over it" I'm out, I am gone. It'll take as long as it takes. I think the majority of the raw emotions that are coming out here are largely due to the believe that CIK is actually supporting cheaters. I am not 100% that she is. I'll admit that her posting style and what she has to say gets my back up, but she is entitled to her views. I would agree that cheating often comes out of a bad situation, however it CAN NEVER EVER be justified. Period. Can cheaters learn from their mistakes and not cheat again? Of course they can. Can a marriage be "better than it was" after cheating? No not in my opinion (my opinion alone and I am bloody well entitled to that as well). A new relationship can be formed, yes, but the marriage dies. Sorry for blending multiple threads. I've said my peace, my soapbox is put away for the time being.
ShatteredReality Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 I can understand what you both are saying here. At some point, one has to move on. Heck, I struggled for a long time in my own recovery after my H's infidelity. I wasn't sure I could ever get past it. But I am...slowly. I think what some have a problem with here is that a WS is telling the BS that they need to get over it. That is the last thing most BS want to hear...heck, some probably heard from their own WS at some point IRL. Also, WS can't possibly understand exactly what it feels like to be a BS. Sure, a BS can tell their WS everything that they feel. I know I have told my H pretty much every freakin' detail of pain and misery. He held me close as I cried. Infidelity is weird like that...the one who hurt you sometimes also is the one to comfort you. But, like other WS, my H still won't ever know exactly how it felt to be betrayed like that. I'm sorry - I never meant it to come across as "Just get over it already" That's NOT how I feel at ALL. I Do feel, however, that once a person chooses to forgive someone for what they've done, it's no longer appropriate to continue to condemn them for what they've done. Getting over, moving past anything as hurtful as an affair will take time. Do I know what It is like to be cheated on? Yes. By my SO? No. However I have my own laundry list of issues I carry along in my overstuffed bags through life. I have never told my H to "get over it" in those words. What I have said was "If you're not able to forgive me for this...I understand...but at some point we have to make a choice. I cannot forgive myself and become a better person if you constantly throw it back into my face. You have to be able to cope with this pain and either allow me to help you or tell me to leave - but at some point, life has to start again for each of us, in our own time. You let me know what you want to do and I will work with you on this." So maybe that was me telling him to get over it....over a year after the fact did I finally say this. It was all I could do, though, as every time I felt like we had taken steps forward there would be some argument over me forgetting the right bread or something and somehow this would lead back to what I'd done. It was a bit too much. I didn't want to force him through his emotions faster than he was able to handle them, but we had to find a way for him to cope with his emotions and the pain without recriminating me all over again. He understood this - and I probably worded it better to him at the time - and we're now at a point where we can each seperate out dealing with the pain of events rather than constantly placing blame and taking it out on the other person. cik & shattered: I know I said I wouldn't post to this thread anymore but the two of you make me ill. Your a mutual admiration society of cheater cheerleaders and are as closed-minded as you accuse your detractors of being. I never claim to understand a cheaters point of view yet you both consistently claim to understand my point of view. You don't. You can't. Stop trying. Stop lying. So sorry you feel ill. I don't understand your point of view and I won't try to. If I am not able to help you in any way on here then I hope you find someone else who can. My main theory is that holding on to the pain and anger, while it may seem cathartic for awhile, is ultimately detrimental to ones recovery. I am not the person to tell you how long it will take for you to move forward from what you have experienced, nor can I claim to tell anyone else when to move on, all I can say is that eventually a person must or they will wind up doing themselves even more harm than has already been done. And I am not lying. Like you drifter I had decided to not post to this thread any more either, also like you because reading the drivel that CIK spouts makes me want to vomit as well. However, in the spirit of debate I've decided to say my peace again. Snowflower, you basically took the words right out of my mouth. What CIK seems to constantly spout about is telling the BS to just "get over it". Her claim to understand both sides of infidelity is just that as far as I am concerned a claim. If she had experienced it she would not be saying what she is saying. Anyway, my own personal dislike for CIK and her ilk aside this thread does have value. ShatteredReality, I do agree with you regarding the attitude that the WS has to grovel or forever be classified as a bad person, nonsense. However, recovery is a process, it doesn't have a clock on it and each BS needs to find their own way through the journey. I am only a little more than 6 months out past D-day myself and while the emotions are a little easier to deal with they are still there. If my wife ever chooses to utter the words "get over it" I'm out, I am gone. It'll take as long as it takes. I think the majority of the raw emotions that are coming out here are largely due to the believe that CIK is actually supporting cheaters. I am not 100% that she is. I'll admit that her posting style and what she has to say gets my back up, but she is entitled to her views. I would agree that cheating often comes out of a bad situation, however it CAN NEVER EVER be justified. Period. Can cheaters learn from their mistakes and not cheat again? Of course they can. Can a marriage be "better than it was" after cheating? No not in my opinion (my opinion alone and I am bloody well entitled to that as well). A new relationship can be formed, yes, but the marriage dies. Sorry for blending multiple threads. I've said my peace, my soapbox is put away for the time being. What Next, I respect your opinion...hopefully I didn't put out the impression that I don't. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As for your opinion of a marriage being better after the affair...well see that's a touchy thing. For you, maybe not....but for some it's the event that triggers the opening of flood gates. All the problems that were being ignored come out in the open and are dealt with...If the problems are not handled at that point and ONLY the affair is looked at, then I would have to agree with you - I don't think a marriage would improve. Maybe for a little while, but ultimately those problems that were never discussed come back and along with them the same feelings that put the WS in the emotional state they were in when they wandered. Now...as we are all familiar...once someone has wandered, the chances are increased it will happen again. If a WS allows themselves to become vulnerable in that way again and then lies to themselves and says it cannot happen again then they are the fool and it will happen again. But that also clearly shows the lessons weren't learned and the problems weren't truly handled. Now...will I ever cheat again? No. I say that with confidence. Not because I can't...I think I have proven that I am capable of it...but because I am not foolish enough to think that I can't anymore. As such...if a red flag comes up I talk to my husband about it...even if it's nothing, at least then he is aware...so trust is rebuilt. Completely? No...so in that area, our marriage will never have that innocence back. I broke that and it will forever have the scar of my betrayal. It is one of many scars that our marriage bears from our years together and the various wrongs we have committed against one another. However, now, as opposed to before I did the awful thing that I did, we confront our problems as they arise. We don't let them lay dormant or brush them under some rug in hopes they disappear. We have more happy days now than sad ones, more contentment than restlessness that we had before...and less anger toward each other. I wish something completely different had caused us to get to where we are now...but since I cannot take back what I've done, I choose to see the positive side of things as they are now rather than concentrate on everywhere that I went wrong. I do not believe CIK is someone who promotes or supports affairs in the least. If anything, I just think she's being misread. Typed word is 50% the person typing it up and 50% the person reading it and choosing to put the tone they think belongs with it. I believe she recognizes the affair as something that she should not have done, but rather than wallow in that and hate herself forever, she is choosing to look at the good things that have followed. Did they follow because of the affair itself? No. Instead they followed because there was something drastic that changed the way their lives were heading...which made them both wake up and have to think about their lives, their marriage, and what they wanted to do about them. What Next, You're only 6 mo into the process. My H did a TON of research after D day....most of what he read said that it takes 18 mo - 2 yrs on average to cope appropriately with what happened...that's if you choose to stay in the marriage after the fact. I don't recall what he said it takes if you choose to seperate, since that wasn't what he wanted to do. I hope you continue to feel better each day...week...or month as it were. Again...sorry if I offended you - it's not my place to say how long it should take a person...all I meant from my previous comment is that some people tend to stay in one place for years. They expect pity for years and years...in reality if they aren't moving forward, at least a little at a time...then there is something more than what's been done to them...at some point they have to accept the responsibility of their own well being and either move foward (not "just get over it") or seek help in doing so.
What_Next Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 ShatteredReality, for the record you most certainly DID NOT offend me in any way shape or form. Like I said I respect your opinions and your posts are always well though out and from the heart. I also do (for the most part) feel better about things as each day goes by. I hope and pray it will continue to be that way. If not, I'll do my best to make it so. I personally do not believe CIK is being mis-read. I think the jist of her posts show her true character (or lack there of). She has her right to her opinion and I have mine. When I disagree with her, and I suspect I most often will I'll say so. She'll reap what she has sown; there is little doubt of that. She has to look in the mirror at herself each day.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 19, 2011 Author Posted April 19, 2011 It's obvious that (most times) the BS & the WS here will disagree with each other. The issue I have is that people who so adamantly disagree with my posts are those that read between the lines. Put their own twist on what they think my tone is. All I can say to that is that it's their problem. Not mine. I know what's in my heart. I know where I WAS & how far I've come. Shattered - - I enjoy reading your posts. You actually get what I'm saying. Thank You. I would challenge anyone to show me where I've actually Cheered On A Cheater OR said specifically for a BS to Get Over It. I have posted always that the affair isn't the way to fix a problem. It compounds it. In my situation though, it only 'compounded' the problem for a short time. (MY scenario, not someone elses) Not that my husband brushed it under the rug. He didn't do that at all. But it was because of other things that happened in the years prior to the affair - (that I've never posted) - For the "Readers Between The Lines" - No he didn't have an affair. What I've said all along is that if a BS has decided to stay with their WS then they do need to come to a time where they forgive & move on. I'm not saying it should be in a year or two or whatever. There is a poster here that has lothed his wife for 20 years because of her affair. Come on people, no one else thinks that's a bit overkill? Really, hanging an affair over someones head for that long......... If a BS has made a choice to stay then it's their responsibility to do whatever it takes for them - if it means counseling or whatever. I'd think that they should come to a place where they make a decision to pull up their big kid panties & get on with life. ...........See - I've not said GET OVER IT............I'm more saying learn to forgive if you've decided you're staying. If you realize that you can't forgive & you still stay....Well to me that's as bad as the cheater. You're lying to your spouse every single day. Let your spouse go - YOU deserve a good life & so do they.
Snowflower Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I'm sorry - I never meant it to come across as "Just get over it already" That's NOT how I feel at ALL. I Do feel, however, that once a person chooses to forgive someone for what they've done, it's no longer appropriate to continue to condemn them for what they've done. Getting over, moving past anything as hurtful as an affair will take time. Do I know what It is like to be cheated on? Yes. By my SO? No. However I have my own laundry list of issues I carry along in my overstuffed bags through life. I have never told my H to "get over it" in those words. What I have said was "If you're not able to forgive me for this...I understand...but at some point we have to make a choice. I cannot forgive myself and become a better person if you constantly throw it back into my face. You have to be able to cope with this pain and either allow me to help you or tell me to leave - but at some point, life has to start again for each of us, in our own time. You let me know what you want to do and I will work with you on this." So maybe that was me telling him to get over it....over a year after the fact did I finally say this. It was all I could do, though, as every time I felt like we had taken steps forward there would be some argument over me forgetting the right bread or something and somehow this would lead back to what I'd done. It was a bit too much. I didn't want to force him through his emotions faster than he was able to handle them, but we had to find a way for him to cope with his emotions and the pain without recriminating me all over again. He understood this - and I probably worded it better to him at the time - and we're now at a point where we can each seperate out dealing with the pain of events rather than constantly placing blame and taking it out on the other person. Shattered, thank you for taking the time to respond with your perspective. RE the bolded... I do agree with a lot of what you write but keep in mind that the concept of forgiveness is different for everyone. Just because a BS hasn't forgiven doesn't necessarily mean that they are holding it over their spouse's head. I have not forgiven my H for his affair. He knows I haven't and he is perfectly okay with that. He realizes that what he did was a very horrendous thing. However, I don't walk around beating him up about it all the time or hold it over his head when I am angry about an everyday disagreement that has nothing to do with his affair. So in my mind, a lack of forgiveness doesn't mean that the relationship is doomed. It means there is more work and growth to be done. So in your situation, your H may have a different idea of forgiveness than you do, Shattered. Have you spoken to him about what his idea of forgiveness is? I think it can be different for everyone.
ShatteredReality Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 ShatteredReality, for the record you most certainly DID NOT offend me in any way shape or form. Like I said I respect your opinions and your posts are always well though out and from the heart. I also do (for the most part) feel better about things as each day goes by. I hope and pray it will continue to be that way. If not, I'll do my best to make it so. Thank you. As I said before I hope things continue to improve for you. I am confident they will...but it does take time...so try to be patient with all you're dealing with...I may not be able to say I've been in YOUR shoes, but I have had to heal before - so in that respect I feel comfortable saying that. It's obvious that (most times) the BS & the WS here will disagree with each other. The issue I have is that people who so adamantly disagree with my posts are those that read between the lines. Put their own twist on what they think my tone is. All I can say to that is that it's their problem. Not mine. I know what's in my heart. I know where I WAS & how far I've come. Shattered - - I enjoy reading your posts. You actually get what I'm saying. Thank You. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like I said before...it's 50% what's typed up and 50% how it's being read. But then, sometimes when a person misreads something they do so in a manner that benefits them, so let's just hope that happens more often than not I've been misunderstood a time or 1000...so I totally get that... Shattered, thank you for taking the time to respond with your perspective. RE the bolded... I do agree with a lot of what you write but keep in mind that the concept of forgiveness is different for everyone. Just because a BS hasn't forgiven doesn't necessarily mean that they are holding it over their spouse's head. I have not forgiven my H for his affair. He knows I haven't and he is perfectly okay with that. He realizes that what he did was a very horrendous thing. However, I don't walk around beating him up about it all the time or hold it over his head when I am angry about an everyday disagreement that has nothing to do with his affair. So in my mind, a lack of forgiveness doesn't mean that the relationship is doomed. It means there is more work and growth to be done. So in your situation, your H may have a different idea of forgiveness than you do, Shattered. Have you spoken to him about what his idea of forgiveness is? I think it can be different for everyone. Ok so the bolded is where our situations differ. Forgiveness was discussed early on and he said he wanted to forgive me and would. When my affair came to light so did all of our other problems. I was ready to walk out the door, convinced no marriage could survive an affair and even less convinced that ours should. He begged me to reconsider and we went to counselling. We communicated and got to the root of our problems...for a moment we actually set aside the affair, rather early on, and looked at everything that lead up to it...Never did either of us try to say that it was ok that I had done what I'd done or that it wasn't really my fault - no way. I owned my actions from the beginning. What we did was try to figure out why I was in the emotional state I was in and why I had allowed my guard to be down the way that it was. Anyhow, long story short...there was much for us to both apologize for when it came down to it all. I had the affair, which was this huge mountain of a thing I'd done...and he had built his own mountain of other smaller things stacked all on top of eachother...we each had our own wrongs we'd committed...obviously MY mountain was taller just because of the severity of what I'd done, but we decided eventually (after hours of talking) that we needed to both apologize to each other. And forgive one another. I know I can catch some heat on this site for saying that...but it was a mutual decision. It wasn't me demanding anything of him, but him instead seeing things for the first time for what they really were and seeing where he'd been wrong, knowing that if he really wanted to work on our marriage that my affair wasn't the only problem we had to face. So, after that the "idea" was that we had safe words to let eachother know when we were having emotional meltdowns dealing with the pain we each needed to cope with. Obviously he had more of them than I did and they were larger. If he wanted to be angry about it and have a fit that was fine, so long as he told me what was going on...and we were supposed to refrain from verbally abusing one another or belittling the other person during whatever tirade we were going through. He had trouble with this...sometimes his pain over the little things would turn into the pain from the larger things - he'd blame me for this and lash out to hurt me back. I did my best to stay calm and never retaliate...however I also wasn't about to sit back and take abuse. Knowing the line is difficult sometimes, but he was prone to emotional and verbal abuse - so I had to stand up for myself at some point. It was then that I told him that we needed to improve his ability to handle this stuff...fortunately we were very open...and like I said I am sure I worded it better to him in the moment....and if I didn't he would ask for clarification. One thing we realized was we needed to make sure we understood what one another was really saying before assuming anything....well this has worked for us and we've come a long way. I know he still has to deal with pain from the affair sometimes...I still have to deal with pain from it myself! We talk to eachother now, though...and if one is hurting the other comforts... Hope that makes sense?
ShatteredReality Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 I didn't mean to bold the entire paragraph there. I know what I did was horredous also...sorry.
StoneCold Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 What is so wrong about being told to get over it? Fact of the matter is thats exactly what you're going to have to do...like it or not, no matter how bad it hurts...thats reality. People have dont it before you, they are dong it now and will do it long after you.... So why run from that truth? I dont get it.
StoneCold Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 It's obvious that (most times) the BS & the WS here will disagree with each other. The issue I have is that people who so adamantly disagree with my posts are those that read between the lines. Put their own twist on what they think my tone is. All I can say to that is that it's their problem. Not mine. . oh boy I can attest to this
ShatteredReality Posted April 19, 2011 Posted April 19, 2011 What is so wrong about being told to get over it? Fact of the matter is thats exactly what you're going to have to do...like it or not, no matter how bad it hurts...thats reality. People have dont it before you, they are dong it now and will do it long after you.... So why run from that truth? I dont get it. I think it's the manner in which it's being said. Honestly I think MOST people are logical enough to understand that they're going to have to move on eventually from whatever has happened to them...standing in one place forever gets you nowhere. But It's all in how it's said and who it comes from. And at the very least, if a person cannot recognize it about themselves they can surely see it about someone else. "He/She needs to move on!!" I cannot tell you how often I have heard that from someone unwilling to move on from their own issue at hand...of course whatever their issue is "different". When it comes to infidelity I don't think there is a cookie cutter timeline anyone can expect to follow for recovery, which is why I was saying - it doesn't necessarily matter exactly how long it takes or anything like that, but the fact that there IS forward movement is what is important... But then...with a name like StoneCold....maybe it's because you're the blunt 'let's not dance around what needs to be said' type eh??
Memphis Raines Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 What is so wrong about being told to get over it? it depends on the manner it is said. if it is said in a way that is accompanied by dismissing someone's pain as being a bitcher and complainer, as CIK has done to another person on this site, then its disgusting. I can say, "I feel for you, but you need to come to terms with this and get over it at some point" Not "get over it" and tell the person to quit bitching and complaining when they are obviously hurting through no fault of their own.
Author confusedinkansas Posted April 20, 2011 Author Posted April 20, 2011 Memphis we'll obviously never agree on this. The poster you're referring to has carried this around for 20+ years. I think it's just as hurtful to him as it is to his wife to feel this way for that long of a period of time. True, no one can tell you how long it should take to get over something like this - But where's your quality of life when you carry this on your sleeve for so many years? Is it his own choice to feel this way? Obviously Yes it is. This is the only poster that I've made the 'bitching' comment about. I'm still of the belief & always will be - If you've made a decision to stay in a marriage (infidelity or not) & you continue to 'bitch & complain' about your spouse or about what "they have done to you" then yes - that's wrong & sad & Yes, they either need to get over it or move on.
Memphis Raines Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 Memphis we'll obviously never agree on this. The poster you're referring to has carried this around for 20+ years. still doesn't excuse you dismissing his pain as bitching and complaining. He is obviously having a hard time with this. sure, tell him he needs to come to terms with it and eventually, in a nice way, get over it. you don't dismiss him and insult him.
Owl Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 I would agree that insulting is always out of bounds... Dismissing someone because they've refused to change behaviors/attitudes over the course of decades...I kinda get, to tell you the truth. That same poster admitted that he'd gone to counseling but never told the truth about what was bothering him...and noted that he felt that MC was a waste of time. If you don't take any positive ACTION to change the situation or how you feel...then you become partially the source of your own pain. You're right where you've CHOSEN to be. I have to agree that at some point...you either make a change or realize that you're accepting some responsibility for where you're at and what you're feeling. If you take no real action to help yourself... ...what kind of support can you ask for from others? Or provide to others, for that matter?
Memphis Raines Posted April 20, 2011 Posted April 20, 2011 I would agree that insulting is always out of bounds... Dismissing someone because they've refused to change behaviors/attitudes over the course of decades...I kinda get, to tell you the truth. refusing to change a behavior? or not being able to get past the pain? if this guy that we speak of came here ranting and raving like a lunatic, rather than expressing his feelings and expressing the pain he is in over this, then I'd agree with you. just like getting stuck with a knife is still going to twinge pain a little after years with the scar. It hurts less, but still hurts once in a while. ...what kind of support can you ask for from others? Or provide to others, for that matter? the kind of support I gave him. dump his wife if he can't deal with the pain. not insult him because he is in pain.
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