So As Not To Thread-Jack/Explaining.....

[confusedinkansas]

True and while it is possible to recover from it, the scar caused by the affair on a man's soul will remain with him for the rest of his life.

 

This is very true & I'm sure that the 'scar' hurts differently for different people.

I look at this like any other hurdle that a marriage has to jump over.

You have your hard times (& we've had more than our share) - you get past them & you & your spouse are better for it. You look back on the "hard times" (scar) as a memory & you see how far you've come & how much better off you are NOW as opposed to before.

[Owl]

This is very true & I'm sure that the 'scar' hurts differently for different people.

I look at this like any other hurdle that a marriage has to jump over.

You have your hard times (& we've had more than our share) - you get past them & you & your spouse are better for it. You look back on the "hard times" (scar) as a memory & you see how far you've come & how much better off you are NOW as opposed to before.

 

Exactly.

 

And it's pretty clear by looking at all the posters here that this "scar" is there regardless of whether or not the BS chooses to remain with the WS and reconcile the marriage, or moves on immediately.

 

The only difference is exactly that...some choose to work on rebuilding the marriage, some don't. Not every marriage is recoverable, nor is every marriage doomed to horrific failure either.

[What_Next]

We are talking about quite a few aspects of the affair, the recovery etc. I will only speak from personal experience and won't extrapolate further.

 

Forgiveness, well without that there is nowhere to go right? That part was EXTREMELY tough for me. Initially I thought it was impossible. Over time though I have realized that in order to return to any sense of normalcy in my life I would have to forgive. This was as much for me as it was for my wife. I can say that I have forgiven; a large part of that though was examining the root causes of her affair and crumbling of our marriage.

 

Next we can look at the memories, the scars or whatever you want to call them. They are there, they are present, they are not going away overnight. They will diminish over time though, of that I am sure. That is more a function of conditioning than anything else.

 

Lastly there is that believe that a marriage can be "better" than it was before the affair. Well personally I believe this NOT to be the case. At least for me. It'll never be better. It cannot be by definition. In my case I want little from our previous marriage (in my case once again we are not "rebuilding" our marriage, but rather creating a new union), therefore it won't be better than it was.

 

The decision my wife made to cheat will always be there, the decisions I made to do what I did will always be there. As will the impacts of those decisions. It's the how we chose to live with them that we have control over.

[Owl]

We are talking about quite a few aspects of the affair, the recovery etc. I will only speak from personal experience and won't extrapolate further.

 

Forgiveness, well without that there is nowhere to go right? That part was EXTREMELY tough for me. Initially I thought it was impossible. Over time though I have realized that in order to return to any sense of normalcy in my life I would have to forgive. This was as much for me as it was for my wife. I can say that I have forgiven; a large part of that though was examining the root causes of her affair and crumbling of our marriage.

 

Next we can look at the memories, the scars or whatever you want to call them. They are there, they are present, they are not going away overnight. They will diminish over time though, of that I am sure. That is more a function of conditioning than anything else.

 

Lastly there is that believe that a marriage can be "better" than it was before the affair. Well personally I believe this NOT to be the case. At least for me. It'll never be better. It cannot be by definition. In my case I want little from our previous marriage (in my case once again we are not "rebuilding" our marriage, but rather creating a new union), therefore it won't be better than it was.

 

The decision my wife made to cheat will always be there, the decisions I made to do what I did will always be there. As will the impacts of those decisions. It's the how we chose to live with them that we have control over.

 

I don't know about "better" overall...I can agree with what you're saying.

 

Now...you CAN use some of those painful "lessons learned" to make improvements in aspects of your marriage. Improved boundaries, improved communications, etc...

 

Whether or not the marriage as a whole is "better"...probably a matter of perspective more than anything else.

[drifter777]

True and while it is possible to recover from it, the scar caused by the affair on a man's soul will remain with him for the rest of his life.

 

And this is the true heart of the matter. We say it is "possible to recover from" our wife cheating, yet we all seem to agree that the hurt, the scar, remains forever. I believe this and it makes true recovery impossible for most men. A man can choose to live with this scar and trade the pain & humiliation he feels for the sake of the children or because he's too insecure to start a new life, but he never recovers and will never again feel the same level of love, trust or passion for his cheating wife. For this reason I will always advise men to think hard about staying with a cheater because it is going to be much more difficult than they imagine to get to a place where they no longer feel the urge to vomit or do violence when those images replay in their minds. And they may never get to the point where they no longer feel that sense of utter betrayal and are able to repair their self respect. At best it is probably the most difficult thing they will ever do, so be sure the journey is worth it. If she is a multiple cheater, shows little or no remorse, or there are no children involved than I think a man is simply suffering needless agony trying to reconcile a relationship that isn't worth it. Walking away and starting a new life is scary & difficult but is a much better option in many, if not all, of these cases.

Edited April 12, 2011 by drifter777

[Owl]

And this is the true heart of the matter. We say it is "possible to recover from" our wife cheating, yet we all seem to agree that the hurt, the scar, remains forever. I believe this and it makes true recovery impossible for most men. A man can choose to live with this scar and trade the pain & humiliation he feels for the sake of the children or because he's too insecure to start a new life, but he never recovers and will never again feel the same level of love, trust or passion for his cheating wife. For this reason I will always advise men to think hard about staying with a cheater because it is going to be much more difficult than they imagine to get to a place where they no longer feel the urge to vomit or do violence when those images replay in their minds. And they may never get to the point where they no longer feel that sense of utter betrayal and are able to repair their self respect. At best it is probably the most difficult thing they will ever do, so be sure the journey is worth it. If she is a multiple cheater, shows little or no remorse, or there are no children involved than I think a man is simply suffering needless agony trying to reconcile a relationship that isn't worth it. Walking away and starting a new life is scary & difficult but is a much better option in many, if not all, of these cases.

 

The bolded is patently untrue.

 

I live in a happily recovered marriage. My passion and love for my wife has returned completely.

 

Trust...well...I will never "blindly" trust anyone like that again. My wife, or anyone else.

 

I am not/was not "too insecure to start a new life".

 

Let me be blunt. I respect your decision to end your marriage, even if it's not the choice I would have made. I don't post blanket statements about men who choose to divorce...because I've not made that choice.

 

You're making assumptions about those who choose to reconcile with no understanding of what it truly takes, or what the marriage truly can end up like after that kind of effort.

 

While assumpstions can be useful...they can also be insulting to those of us who have done this successfully.

[What_Next]

Drifter777 (forgive me if I am confusing you with another story) after reading your story I can see how you can come to that conclusion. However, generalizing your situation to apply to the population at large is self centred and quite frankly insulting. You may believe this and it might apply in your case, and it actually may apply in other cases but generalizing is inappropriate.

 

I most definitely was not too insecure to start my own life. In fact within 48 hrs of D-Day I had my own place, I had my own bank accounts, I had our finances seperated and we had a custody agreement worked on.

 

The fact that I chose to attempt a reconciliation does not make me insecure, nor do I feel as though I have to live in pain or being humiliated. Maybe that is how you feel, but it is not how I feel nor would I be naive enough to believe my experiences will be the same as anyone else's.

 

No two situations are the same and no two marriages are the same. Drifter it's obvious you are miserable in your marriage and are in distress over the decisions you have made, well those are your own to live with and your own to deal with.

[drifter777]

The bolded is patently untrue.

 

I live in a happily recovered marriage. My passion and love for my wife has returned completely.

 

Trust...well...I will never "blindly" trust anyone like that again. My wife, or anyone else.

 

I am not/was not "too insecure to start a new life".

 

Let me be blunt. I respect your decision to end your marriage, even if it's not the choice I would have made. I don't post blanket statements about men who choose to divorce...because I've not made that choice.

 

You're making assumptions about those who choose to reconcile with no understanding of what it truly takes, or what the marriage truly can end up like after that kind of effort.

 

While assumpstions can be useful...they can also be insulting to those of us who have done this successfully.

 

Ok, let's be blunt. I respect your opinion, but it is only your opinion based on your personal experience and since your wife did not have a physical affair you don't have the mental images to deal with so you don't know what it's like. I'm just giving my opinion that the vast majority of men are never able to escape the images of their wife having sex with another man and thus are never able to "get over" the incident to the extent you have.

 

Here's the thing; I sick and tired of people who don't know what it's like to live through the experience of discovering their wife is having sex with another man telling me that my feelings, opinions and generalizations are wrong. I've never weighed in regarding someone dealing with an EA because I don't know what it's like. Why do men who have dealt only with an EA think they know what it's like to live through a PA?

[Owl]

Why do you think you know what it's like to recover a marriage...when you clearly haven't?

 

Sorry...I find your comments about this subject just as offensive as you seem to find mine.

 

Rather than throw blanket statements out about something you don't know anything about, perhaps you might simply comment on what you've personally experienced???

[Owl]

Ok, let's be blunt. I respect your opinion, but it is only your opinion based on your personal experience and since your wife did not have a physical affair you don't have the mental images to deal with so you don't know what it's like. I'm just giving my opinion that the vast majority of men are never able to escape the images of their wife having sex with another man and thus are never able to "get over" the incident to the extent you have.

 

Here's the thing; I sick and tired of people who don't know what it's like to live through the experience of discovering their wife is having sex with another man telling me that my feelings, opinions and generalizations are wrong. I've never weighed in regarding someone dealing with an EA because I don't know what it's like. Why do men who have dealt only with an EA think they know what it's like to live through a PA?

 

Actually...I think I"m the only poster currently on the board who is a betrayed husband whose wife "only" had an EA.

 

I don't know of anyone else here currently posting who fits that bill.

 

Editted to add: I never said that your feelings or opinions are wrong. They're how you feel...there is no right or wrong. I DO disagree with your generalizations. The conclusions you come to are based off a very narrow viewpoint. I admit that others can't always recover their marriage...but you try to insist that no one can, when we've seen a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Owl

[drifter777]

Why do you think you know what it's like to recover a marriage...when you clearly haven't?

 

Sorry...I find your comments about this subject just as offensive as you seem to find mine.

 

Rather than throw blanket statements out about something you don't know anything about, perhaps you might simply comment on what you've personally experienced???

 

I restrict my comments to those threads that deal with women in a committed relationship having sex with other men. That is the area I have personal experience with and believe that participating in those threads can be helpful to others and is definitely helpful to ME AND MY OWN RECOVERY. This exchange with you is therapeutic for me and I thank you and all the people who contribute to this forum for help they have provided me whether they intended to or not. I think we're all just trying to get better and, for some, helping others is a way to do this. I hope my opinions, while somewhat extreme, can still provide help to men who are trying to find a way to heal the hurt they feel. Not an answer, but some help.

[Snowflower]

 

 

 

Lastly there is that believe that a marriage can be "better" than it was before the affair. Well personally I believe this NOT to be the case. At least for me. It'll never be better. It cannot be by definition. In my case I want little from our previous marriage (in my case once again we are not "rebuilding" our marriage, but rather creating a new union), therefore it won't be better than it was.

 

 

I get what you're saying. And I like that you say you are not rebuilding but creating a new union. I think that is key.

 

IMO, the marriage dies with the affair(s). I know for months after my H and I reconciled, I considered our marriage a "legal arrangement" and little more.

 

So if you are creating a new union, who is to say that it won't, in time, be "better" than the original marriage? It could develop into something that is deeper, richer and more resilient than the "first" marriage.

 

Just my thoughts. I've wrestled with similar questions too.

[What_Next]

Snowflower, that is a keen observation and in fact I believe that if you had not personally went through the pain of infidelity you would have not been able to make it.

 

Ironically I still find referring to my wife and I as married somewhat a double edged sword. I have told her this and I know it hurts her, but it isn't my intent to hurt, but to reveal my own feelings. Yes i feel our wedding vows were nullified as soon as she had her affair. I followed it up with own revenge affair further trampling those vows. I consider our marriage to be a thing of the past in every sense of the word. I have already told her that I'll never again celebrate our "wedding anniversary". I will however celebrate the anniversary of the night we decided to attempt a reconciliation.

 

Drifter, the pain you are in comes through in your posts in spades. It is easy to see how hurt you still are and also the anger comes through as well. Do you have an outlet besides LS? Does your wife know what you are going through and is she willing to help you through it? If not, I suggest you start there.

[Snowflower]

Snowflower, that is a keen observation and in fact I believe that if you had not personally went through the pain of infidelity you would have not been able to make it.

 

That is such a nice thing to say.

Ironically I still find referring to my wife and I as married somewhat a double edged sword. I have told her this and I know it hurts her, but it isn't my intent to hurt, but to reveal my own feelings. Yes i feel our wedding vows were nullified as soon as she had her affair. I followed it up with own revenge affair further trampling those vows. I consider our marriage to be a thing of the past in every sense of the word. I have already told her that I'll never again celebrate our "wedding anniversary". I will however celebrate the anniversary of the night we decided to attempt a reconciliation.

 

Oh my, I know exactly what you are talking about here!

 

My H was very saddened when I told him about the "legal arrangement" feelings that I had. I felt uncomfortable referring to him as my H or that I was married.

 

At that time, I felt that our marriage was over for all intents and purposes. I loved him and I know that he loved me but that was it.

 

Our wedding anniversary still saddens me to this day. I have tried to look at our wedding album and still cannot do it. Ugh, and our anniversary is next week. So, I understand what you are saying about the wedding anniversary.

 

I wish in a way, my H and I had actually gone ahead and divorced. My H was reluctantly willing to divorce if that was what I wanted. We would have continued to live together because we wanted to reconcile but we would have not been married for a time. When I/we felt sufficiently healed, we could have remarried.

 

I know in some states you have to be physically separated in order to divorce but in my state you did not have to do that. At the time, it seemed confusing, complicated and expensive to divorce and potentially confusing and hurtful to our children. So we didn't pursue it.

 

In some ways, I wish we had.

[What_Next]

It's amazing some times how similiar the emotions can be. It's almost uncanny.

 

I was all but sure I'd divorce and even during our early reconciliation I was still sure of it. I had told her that and she was upset but understood.

 

We still have seperate apartments, but I stay with her most of the time. Only this past weekend did we put up any pictures whatsoever. For months and months I did not want to see any wedding pictures at all. For the holidays I decided to have a local artist paint a wedding photo of us, I was sort of hoping it would help me heal, it didn't. She loves the painting and it will stay up, but it's hard for me to look at sometimes.

 

In the end the marriage is now just a piece of paper, our union means more to me and that is continuing to grow each day.

[confusedinkansas]

I get what you're saying. And I like that you say you are not rebuilding but creating a new union. I think that is key.

 

IMO, the marriage dies with the affair(s). I know for months after my H and I reconciled, I considered our marriage a "legal arrangement" and little more.

 

So if you are creating a new union, who is to say that it won't, in time, be "better" than the original marriage? It could develop into something that is deeper, richer and more resilient than the "first" marriage.

 

Just my thoughts. I've wrestled with similar questions too.

 

Personally, my "Marriage" was over years before the affair. We were merely together for the same things many folks stay together for + our upbringing.

I believe this is the SOLE reason why we're together to this day.

Because we stayed thru the tough times. No love was felt but we stuck it out anyway. Climbed our way thru & here we are ........ I think we have a 'new' marriage so to speak. Way better than before.

 

Truthfully, we're getting ready to go thru some really really tough times again. But, because of our knowledge & because of the bumps we have taken up until now - It'll be fine. (she says with her fingers crossed.....)

[Memphis Raines]

Truthfully, we're getting ready to go thru some really really tough times again.

 

 

and do the rough times have anything to do with the affairs?

[confusedinkansas]

and do the rough times have anything to do with the affairs?

 

Not at all. & to clarify - Affair (Singular) Not Affair(s) Plural.

 

Upcoming rough times have to do with the state of the economy. Businesses closing. Jobs lost. Starting over.

At our age (50) starting over isn't something I thought we'd have to do.

 

The past 'hard times' didn't have to do with the affair either.

[Memphis Raines]

Not at all. & to clarify - Affair (Singular) Not Affair(s) Plural.

 

sorry, I thought you both had affairs

[Untouchable_Fire]

Some folks here just amaze me. There is 0 capability of letting anything go. - Even when you love someone. 0 capability to Forgive. It's Sad really --You must hound & hound away. Life is so much more than being (Self Inflicted)miserable

 

You are not better than anyone else... you're just incapable of understanding. Face it... you are the sadist that causes the hurt... not the person who has been hurt by this.

 

CIK, I know I've said this before but I appreciate you hanging around LS and giving your POV. I don't completely understand why you seem to get under the skin of some here. I guess it is your "it is what it is" thoughts about your affair that rattles some.

But really, if your H is okay with things in your marriage and if he is happy then who cares what is said here.

If I were you, I wouldn't bother to try to explain yourself further. Your marriage is your business (and your H's) and no one else's.

 

I object to much of what she says because she minimizes or rationalizes her affair... then uses a false picture of her husband to bash men who struggle with these things.

[confusedinkansas]

You are not better than anyone else... you're just incapable of understanding. Face it... you are the sadist that causes the hurt... not the person who has been hurt by this.

 

I've never claimed to be better than anyone else. I hardly think I come across that way. I'm no different than any other BS or WS here. The thing that you don't seem to understand is that I do understand. I very much understand both sides of the infidelity coin.100%

 

then uses a false picture of her husband to bash men who struggle with these things

You think that I've made up the things I've said about my husband? Since when were you the fly on the wall at my house?

 

There is 0 capability of letting anything go. - Even when you love someone. 0 capability to Forgive. It's Sad really --You must hound & hound away. Life is so much more than being (Self Inflicted)miserable

I've never bashed men - I do however; think that IF a MAN OR A WOMAN chooses to stay in their marriage & then continues to complain about it ....(Infidelity or not)...... What's The Point? Why Stay? * That's hardly bashing.

 

The only time I believe that I've 'rationalized' my affair is when I say that ~ Because of the affair I'm now a better wife. I'm not saying the affair was the answer, because it wasn't. It just is what it is. It happened, I can't take it back. It's the hind site that has helped me see where I went wrong.

[What_Next]

I've never claimed to be better than anyone else. I hardly think I come across that way. I'm no different than any other BS or WS here. The thing that you don't seem to understand is that I do understand. I very much understand both sides of the infidelity coin.100%

 

Thanks for the laugh on a Friday. I needed that. What a crock of ____.

[ShatteredReality]

I have drifted in and out of paying attention to this thread...it's gotten quite long. What I have noticed, though, is more of the same attitude - that once a person has cheated that's all there is. There is nothing more to the story - that person is a bad bad person who should be set on fire and made to run through the streets naked for what they've done. The BS is, of course, an innocent and completely harmless individual who did nothing to contribute to the state the marriage was in when the WS wandered and should be coddled back to health as they are the only person in the situation who could possibly have any justified feelings in the matter. Also...if the BS is so gracious as to accept the WS back then the WS needs to gravel at their feet for the rest of their lives and allow them to hold their unforgiveable trangression above their heads forever.

 

It's ridiculous. It's jaded and pessimistic. An affair, while never the correct answer to marital problems (ever) is typically a symptom of all of the other problems within the marriage. To discount how the WS feels well after the fact or the lessons they've learned is completely unfair. The WS is typically in a great deal of turmoil when the affair happens and there is also a great deal of pain involved for that individual after the fact as well. Perhaps you feel this pain is more deserved...well it's self inflicted for sure, but who is to say who deserves what kind of pain? When a teenager is abused at home and then turns to cutting themselves do you banish them as a scorge on society or attempt to get them some help? If they are willing to get help then do you tell them they're hopeless and useless or do you encourage them to move forward and work to improve themselves and attain a better life?

 

The problem that I see here is too many people allow peoples actions to define every bit of who they are, neglecting the fact that people can learn from the wrongs they commit, make significant changes in their lives, and be happy. Many WS serve his or her time in emotional prison. The BS may help with this or the WS may do it all on their own - but the bottom line is, there is a long and arduous road back to that place where the WS can recognize the affair as a terrible thing in their past that they've learned from and that it doesn't define who they are as a person for all eternity.

 

CIK has an incredibly healthy view of the things that have happened in her past. Her husband has also been good at dealing with the situation and moving forward. Their marriage is much better now having learned from the mistakes of their past and I say Kudos to you both! Affair survivors cannot truly call themselves that if they never put it in the past where it belongs and move forward. If you can draw a line in the sand and say "Our new relationship starts here...all the rest...let's leave it back there" then you have a chance...and those who are able to do it - it's not that you can't see the things behind that line or remember them, but you choose not to revisit them - and THAT is how the healing really happens. A WS doesn't need to hate themselves forever. And the BS is capable of moving forward and being happy again - even with the person who hurt them.

[drifter777]

This is getting boiled down to arguments between women who have cheated and men whose wife's have cheated on them. I don't think either side is going to make any progress convincing the other of anything, nor are the members of either side going to become enlightened by anything anyone on the other side says. We are natural "enemies" when it comes to this subject so I, for one, am going to stop posting to this thread. I will continue to post on this forum when I feel I can contribute to a particular thread and, because of the nature of those threads, I'm sure to encounter the same and other female cheaters who will always take the other side. While frustrating for each of us, it is probably more help to the wounded poster to see both sides of this issue.

[ShatteredReality]

This is getting boiled down to arguments between women who have cheated and men whose wife's have cheated on them. I don't think either side is going to make any progress convincing the other of anything, nor are the members of either side going to become enlightened by anything anyone on the other side says. We are natural "enemies" when it comes to this subject so I, for one, am going to stop posting to this thread. I will continue to post on this forum when I feel I can contribute to a particular thread and, because of the nature of those threads, I'm sure to encounter the same and other female cheaters who will always take the other side. While frustrating for each of us, it is probably more help to the wounded poster to see both sides of this issue.

 

Actually, Drifter, I think it has a little less to do with the two categories you've mentioned and more to do with - those who are still emotionally bound to the events that took place and those who have begun or succeeded in the healing process. I have spoken to my husband at length about the issue. It's still a sensitive topic in some areas...but my c-section scar still hurts if you press on it in certain ways and that thing is nearly a decade old. It has been extremely important for me to understand his view and to do all that I can to assist in his healing from this situation. Half the time, when I post about the topic, it's his views I have in mind even more than my own - however we are in agreement in much of them. I never discount his feelings or claim they aren't valid - and for that he has been pretty good at doing the same for me. He has every right to feel how he did/does about what I did. However - only HE has walked in on me and seen me crying over the things that I did back then. So, in truth, he's the only one who knows if I am bad or if I am good. No one on here knows me from the person at the back of the bus - and that's fine. He is ultimately the one who pulled me back out of the darkness. He is the one who has helped me to see that I am not what I have done in the past, but instead what I choose to do in the future. He is the one who has told me he can heal from these wounds, but that in order for him to do it correctly, I must heal as well. So...while in the beginning, while the pain was fresh...he may have felt like it would never go away, now he has a different view. The difference is in the healing process. Some choose to hang on to their anger and pain, to try to use it as a shield to ward off future pain...while others do as I said. They cope with what happened. They recognize what responsibility, if any, they played in the emotional wellbeing everyone was in at the time it happened. They draw a line in the sand. They walk forward. This does not discount the pain that they felt or that they had to wade through to get there...it does help to recognize that they aren't the only one coping with something, though. And that can help some to recognize that moving forward is possible...and healing is possible....and that both parties can move foward to live happy and full lives that are not governed by the past.

Edited April 15, 2011 by ShatteredReality
sp