East7 Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I have met 2 young women (27-30) since the A with xMW ended, one of them is a recent friend. She likes me (her GF told me) and we have hanged out in group dates. She is nice, simple, pretty, decent job..and single but I just don't feel any spark with her or any other around me. Each time I meet women I can't help them compare to xMW not on physical level, but connection and chemistry. I'm almost spoiled for choice and it drives me crazy to be so picky and emotionless with others while I would crush in 1 second when I used to meet xMW. I guess it is a matter of time until I find a nice, lovely woman that wants to share her life with me, but xMW is always in a corner of my mind.
Minnie09 Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I'm sorry you're still comparing new female acquaintances to your ex. If you don't feel the spark, it's probably because the affair situation was so extremely different from any normal R. There was nothing normal in your A, no every-day-boredom, just you and her. I'm sure every conversation was exclusively about you and her and how to find the time and place to meet up the next time. That's exciting, that's forbidden. That fuels the dynamic between A partners. There's nothing that compares to an A situation. It's just too intense. Try to distinguish between your feelings for the xMW, and your feelings of excitement that were created merely by the situation. Anybody could've filled the role of the woman. The situation was already intense enough. No "new" woman can compete with that. Cut them some slack!
Star_Bright Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I don't know but I've experienced the same thing. Luckily I'm not ready/willing to be in a relationship right now because I'm working on myself and thinking about making some major life changes and I don't want to be influenced by being with someone else. But, I do date, casually, and no one comes close to exMM in terms of chemistry and connection, like you say. In my sitch I don't know if this is because I don't want to get involved with anyone so I purposefully keep my emotions out of it, or if it's because no one compares to exMM, or a combination of both (I think it's both). This is my hardest hurdle because even though I'm glad I got out of the affair with exMM, I still miss him, which bugs me to no end. It's like, when am I going to stop missing him?! And thinking of him when I'm out with other guys?! It just plain sucks. I understand the response about the dynamics of an affair being different. This leads me to worry that I will never be satisfied with a "normal" relationship and that I need the excitement of an affair to be really into someone. But I don't know if it's that (or just that). I really do think exMM and I would have had something in a regular relationship. We had a lot in common (maybe too much -- not enough balance b/c my strengths were his strengths and my weaknesses were his weaknesses -- but, it sure made it easy to relate to him), we always had fun together (my favorite thing about him was how fun he was), he made me laugh, he was good at listening to me and talking to me (something I find rare in men), etc. Those things would be there even if it wasn't an affair. Sure, whenever I miss him I tell myself all the things I didn't like about him (mainly the obvious -- he was able to cheat and lie so much), but, I do remember the good times and the guys I meet seem so blah in comparison to him. They don't have his ambition, his drive, his passion. It wasn't worth staying in an affair to have him but that doesn't mean I wasn't attracted to him for a reason, or that I don't miss him. So maybe it is the same with you and your exMW? Eventually I would like to find that passion and connection in an exclusive relationship with trust and security. I do hope it exists. In the meantime I'd rather be alone than settle for "blah" with a single guy, OR for an affair with someone who was not "blah" to me at all. I hope I've helped some, I do understand where you're coming from. I feel the exact same way.
findingnemo Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I have met 2 young women (27-30) since the A with xMW ended, one of them is a recent friend. She likes me (her GF told me) and we have hanged out in group dates. She is nice, simple, pretty, decent job..and single but I just don't feel any spark with her or any other around me. Each time I meet women I can't help them compare to xMW not on physical level, but connection and chemistry. I'm almost spoiled for choice and it drives me crazy to be so picky and emotionless with others while I would crush in 1 second when I used to meet xMW. I guess it is a matter of time until I find a nice, lovely woman that wants to share her life with me, but xMW is always in a corner of my mind. East, it may be a matter of time. It makes sense that the more time passes by the less we think of our exes. It is hard to know that the love you want exists but is out of your reach or is even bad for you. I sometimes wish that I'd never known it in the first place. I would probably be happily married in my ignorance. I don't think that the A dynamic makes it hard to find love. In fact I do not even believe that love in As is different apart from the sneaking around. I have experienced different types of love and know that some connections are quite hard to explain. So don't beat yourself up too much. It's all chemical and quite beyond your control. All I can tell you is to hang in there. I hope you soon meet someone who will make you feel again.
jlola Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 East, it may be a matter of time. It makes sense that the more time passes by the less we think of our exes. It is hard to know that the love you want exists but is out of your reach or is even bad for you. I sometimes wish that I'd never known it in the first place. I would probably be happily married in my ignorance. I don't think that the A dynamic makes it hard to find love. In fact I do not even believe that love in As is different apart from the sneaking around. I have experienced different types of love and know that some connections are quite hard to explain. So don't beat yourself up too much. It's all chemical and quite beyond your control. All I can tell you is to hang in there. I hope you soon meet someone who will make you feel again. They say it takes an average of meeting 12 people before you find one you click with. That aside, I have never been involved in an affair situation, but one that sort of had the same aderneline rush. He was gorgeous,6'2" tall. Very sucessful by the time he was 30 and a handsome man with a suit always turned me on. There was drama as we barely got to see each other since he was a workacholic. The chemistry was off the wall, the sex absolutely amazing!!!!!!. But he had issues I did not want to see,but see clearly now. We would break up and pine for each other. Then it would start off again hotter than before. Henestly it felt like a movoe. How many young,extrodinarily handsome and exciting men are there in ihis world?? We eventually broke up after a few years and I compared every man to him. In my head he was "the perfect man" who all men paled to in comparison. Dated many guys with little chemistry. Finally,began dating a really great guy who was a great catch, but I could not help compare him to my ex. The relationship was not so exciting in comparison. This new guy was not as sucessful and I was not being whisked away on trips,given the romance, the perfect words, spoiled like my ex could. Got in contact once with my ex recently. He is still amazingly gorgeous as he goes the the gym often and maintains his looks. But the chemistry was gone and I see clearly now his issues which I never saw before. I am no longer comparing him to other men and it is easier to see there will eventually be someone out there for me I think is perfect. I think it takes a few years of being away from someone who you had tremendous chemistry with and had time to get very emotionally attached. Someone stated once you will never get the emotional highs you will have in an affair. It is like a drug and you become addictted to the uncertainty,drama,romance,longing,pain. So may of us think it must be true love when all of these emotions begin to rule our lives due to someone. I am realistically wondering if these feelings really do mean love. If a friend told me she was in love, but I saw her relationship was filled with all of these anxiety riddled emotions, I would tell her she is in a toxic relationship and would easily recognize what she is calling love is very unhealthy. But we cannot see this when we are the ones in these situations.
2sure Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Its a time thing. Thats all. And there is no cure. It isnt a matter of meeting Ms. Right its a matter of metting her at the right time. Before I married - When I was an OW - I had no misconceptions about the A w/ MM going nowhere. I continued to date single men...but I am really monogomous by nature so as long as I was in a relationship with MM I was not available. You were in a relationship with MW, possibly monogomous on your part...so, its going to take the time to get over that any relationship does. Plus, you have to trade in the fantasy expectations built during an affair for real expectations of a real relationship - so theres that. On another note...I am 7 months out of divorce. I dont know yet if I will ever even want another relationship - I loved my h very much. But ...i also know that as time goes on...the good times are remembered..but not missed as much. He is replacable.
Author East7 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Thanks to everyone for the inputs. And thinking of him when I'm out with other guys?! It just plain sucks. It happens that I think of xMW even when I am with other women. It upsets me. I do remember the good times and the guys I meet seem so blah in comparison to him. They don't have his ambition, his drive, his passion. It wasn't worth staying in an affair to have him but that doesn't mean I wasn't attracted to him for a reason, or that I don't miss him. So maybe it is the same with you and your exMW? Eventually I would like to find that passion and connection in an exclusive relationship with trust and security. I do hope it exists. In the meantime I'd rather be alone than settle for "blah" with a single guy, OR for an affair with someone who was not "blah" to me at all. Yes we react very alike. XMW was physically average (she was cute to my eyes), but above all she was such a smart a$$, very successful with her life but unhappy inside. I always felt she was the One and only even if she had a bunch of flaws that maybe would have turned me off with time. And yes, just because she made me feel like walking on the clouds was not worth keeping an A. Like you, I would like to find the same passion in a normal relationship. They say it takes an average of meeting 12 people before you find one you click with. Before xMW it has been some 10 years since I felt something so powerful despite a couple of R in-between. Dated many guys with little chemistry. .../.... I think it takes a few years of being away from someone who you had tremendous chemistry with and had time to get very emotionally attached.I think the same. Someone stated once you will never get the emotional highs you will have in an affair. It is like a drug and you become addictted to the uncertainty,drama,romance,longing,pain.Oh yes it is like a damn drug addiction. So may of us think it must be true love when all of these emotions begin to rule our lives due to someone. I am realistically wondering if these feelings really do mean love. The question is not having someone rule our life. This is because it is a out-of-reach kind of love. When you have it, it cools down, like any other passionate relationship. We always go crazy for what we don't have. Edited March 22, 2011 by East7
PorkRinds Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 OP, the "spark" has to come from inside of you.
TigerCub Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I have met 2 young women (27-30) since the A with xMW ended, one of them is a recent friend. She likes me (her GF told me) and we have hanged out in group dates. She is nice, simple, pretty, decent job..and single but I just don't feel any spark with her or any other around me. Each time I meet women I can't help them compare to xMW not on physical level, but connection and chemistry. I'm almost spoiled for choice and it drives me crazy to be so picky and emotionless with others while I would crush in 1 second when I used to meet xMW. I guess it is a matter of time until I find a nice, lovely woman that wants to share her life with me, but xMW is always in a corner of my mind. East...I'll tell you why you're not feeling the spark with any of these new women - its NOT because of xMW, its because you're in love with me - mon chou haha Seriously though sweets, I do think its about timing. Also, I don't think the crazy intensity experienced in an A will ever match the intensity in an R. I'm not saying that Rs will be lacking passion, but I honestly don't think its exactly the same as in an A - the "forbidden" aspect is missing in an R - but that doesn't mean that there can't be passion and intensity - it just has to come from a different place. I truly believe that you'll feel it with someone new when you stop comparing and expecting it to be exactly like it was in the A - it wont be, because its a whole other dynamic. But you will find something much much better - when you're ready for it in time. I say, go for it, date, have all the crazy sex you can, and one day someone special will cross paths with you (and you wont even compare to xMW) - but that takes time. And you said it before, when it comes to Rs, they seem to work out best for you when you're not looking for it. All I can say is give it time, and don't expect an R to have the same intense dynamic of an A - it will have its passion when its right, but not from the same angle. **HUGS**
jlola Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Affairs provide adrenaline rush that cannot be matched. Tony Hawk is apparently divorcing his 3rd wife because he is having an affair with his best friends wife of 20 years. Obviously this adrenaline junkie must find the affairs are providing a thrill a real relationship does not. Breaks up his best friend's 20 year marriage? Wow, what a douche. Quote: Report: Hawk divorces for third time Skateboarding legend Tony Hawk divorced his third wife, Lhotse Merriam, for his best friend and business partner Matt Goodman's wife, Cathy, the New York Post reported Tuesday citing sources. Merriam found out about her action sports star husband's [COLOR=blue]new relationship[/COLOR] in December after she discovered a plane ticket for Cathy that Hawk had booked for her to join him in San Francisco -- despite his being lifelong friends with Matt Goodman. Hawk filed for divorce in San Diego from Merriam on Feb. 11. They have one [COLOR=blue]child[/COLOR] together, Kadence Clover, and Hawk has three [COLOR=blue]sons[/COLOR] from two previous marriages. "We remain deeply committed and loving parents to our [COLOR=blue]daughter[/COLOR], and out of respect for that responsibility we ask that people honor our family's privacy during this important time of transition," the couple said in a statement at the time. Hawk married Merriam, his former publicist, in 2006, two years after divorcing his second wife, Erin, his former nanny. Cathy was married to Goodman for nearly 20 years, and they have two [COLOR=blue]kids[/COLOR]. Sources said Goodman and Cathy have now separated. http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story...ds-wife-031411 Enjoy an Ads-Free ASFN - lighter and faster too! Become an ASFN-Contributor and help support the site. __________________ Renz[COLOR=#22229c]View Public Profile[/COLOR][COLOR=#22229c]Find More Posts by Renz[/COLOR] [COLOR=#22229c][/COLOR] [COLOR=#22229c][/COLOR] March 15th, 2011, 10:30 AM #2 [sIZE=5]Russ Smith[/sIZE] The Original Whizzinator Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 34,837 Just doing the math here but does this mean he left wife #1 to marry their nanny, left wife #2 to marry his publicist, and is now leaving wife #3 becaues of the best friends wife? In other words did each of his marriages get broken up by him [COLOR=blue]cheating[/COLOR] and then he married the person he was cheating with? If true you'd think they would know better than to trust him. __________________ "This space available"
Author East7 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Posted March 22, 2011 East...I'll tell you why you're not feeling the spark with any of these new women - its NOT because of xMW, its because you're in love with me - mon chou haha Seriously though sweets, I do think its about timing. Also, I don't think the crazy intensity experienced in an A will ever match the intensity in an R. I'm not saying that Rs will be lacking passion, but I honestly don't think its exactly the same as in an A - the "forbidden" aspect is missing in an R - but that doesn't mean that there can't be passion and intensity - it just has to come from a different place. I truly believe that you'll feel it with someone new when you stop comparing and expecting it to be exactly like it was in the A - it wont be, because its a whole other dynamic. But you will find something much much better - when you're ready for it in time. I say, go for it, date, have all the crazy sex you can, and one day someone special will cross paths with you (and you wont even compare to xMW) - but that takes time. And you said it before, when it comes to Rs, they seem to work out best for you when you're not looking for it. All I can say is give it time, and don't expect an R to have the same intense dynamic of an A - it will have its passion when its right, but not from the same angle. **HUGS** Awwww Tiger, quelle declaration ! I have goose bumps You are right, expecting the same thing is wrong. A=longing, waiting, hiding vs. R = no waiting, no hiding, one step at time
Author East7 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Posted March 22, 2011 Affairs provide adrenaline rush that cannot be matched. Tony Hawk is apparently divorcing his 3rd wife because he is having an affair with his best friends wife of 20 years. Obviously this adrenaline junkie must find the affairs are providing a thrill a real relationship does not. Thanks Lola, but thank G0d, I don't compare myself to Tony Hawk or Tony Parker..these guys have it all and the affairs are just because they are spoiled
fooled once Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 I have met 2 young women (27-30) since the A with xMW ended, one of them is a recent friend. She likes me (her GF told me) and we have hanged out in group dates. She is nice, simple, pretty, decent job..and single but I just don't feel any spark with her or any other around me. Each time I meet women I can't help them compare to xMW not on physical level, but connection and chemistry. I'm almost spoiled for choice and it drives me crazy to be so picky and emotionless with others while I would crush in 1 second when I used to meet xMW. I guess it is a matter of time until I find a nice, lovely woman that wants to share her life with me, but xMW is always in a corner of my mind. East, I am sorry you are having troubles. Give yourself some more time. I found a great guy not long after. He entered my life at the right time, I guess. I wasn't thinking of MM daily or hourly - don't get me wrong, I was heartbroken about how things ended, but it was a choice I had to make for my sanity. When I started dating H, I told him all about the xMM and he never judged me or told me what a dope I was I did date 2 others before H and sometimes I felt like the saying "You have to kiss a lot of toads before you find a prince". :laugh: One day at at time. When you least expect it, it will happen. But you have to make sure you are open to someone and not still missing/thinking about the xMW. You need to extract her from the corner and put her memories on a shelf and close the box.
fooled once Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 I don't know but I've experienced the same thing. Luckily I'm not ready/willing to be in a relationship right now because I'm working on myself and thinking about making some major life changes and I don't want to be influenced by being with someone else. But, I do date, casually, and no one comes close to exMM in terms of chemistry and connection, like you say. In my sitch I don't know if this is because I don't want to get involved with anyone so I purposefully keep my emotions out of it, or if it's because no one compares to exMM, or a combination of both (I think it's both). This is my hardest hurdle because even though I'm glad I got out of the affair with exMM, I still miss him, which bugs me to no end. It's like, when am I going to stop missing him?! And thinking of him when I'm out with other guys?! It just plain sucks. I understand the response about the dynamics of an affair being different. This leads me to worry that I will never be satisfied with a "normal" relationship and that I need the excitement of an affair to be really into someone. But I don't know if it's that (or just that). I really do think exMM and I would have had something in a regular relationship. We had a lot in common (maybe too much -- not enough balance b/c my strengths were his strengths and my weaknesses were his weaknesses -- but, it sure made it easy to relate to him), we always had fun together (my favorite thing about him was how fun he was), he made me laugh, he was good at listening to me and talking to me (something I find rare in men), etc. Those things would be there even if it wasn't an affair. Sure, whenever I miss him I tell myself all the things I didn't like about him (mainly the obvious -- he was able to cheat and lie so much), but, I do remember the good times and the guys I meet seem so blah in comparison to him. They don't have his ambition, his drive, his passion. It wasn't worth staying in an affair to have him but that doesn't mean I wasn't attracted to him for a reason, or that I don't miss him. So maybe it is the same with you and your exMW? Eventually I would like to find that passion and connection in an exclusive relationship with trust and security. I do hope it exists. In the meantime I'd rather be alone than settle for "blah" with a single guy, OR for an affair with someone who was not "blah" to me at all. I hope I've helped some, I do understand where you're coming from. I feel the exact same way. They say it takes an average of meeting 12 people before you find one you click with. That aside, I have never been involved in an affair situation, but one that sort of had the same aderneline rush. He was gorgeous,6'2" tall. Very sucessful by the time he was 30 and a handsome man with a suit always turned me on. There was drama as we barely got to see each other since he was a workacholic. The chemistry was off the wall, the sex absolutely amazing!!!!!!. But he had issues I did not want to see,but see clearly now. We would break up and pine for each other. Then it would start off again hotter than before. Henestly it felt like a movoe. How many young,extrodinarily handsome and exciting men are there in ihis world?? We eventually broke up after a few years and I compared every man to him. In my head he was "the perfect man" who all men paled to in comparison. Dated many guys with little chemistry. Finally,began dating a really great guy who was a great catch, but I could not help compare him to my ex. The relationship was not so exciting in comparison. This new guy was not as sucessful and I was not being whisked away on trips,given the romance, the perfect words, spoiled like my ex could. Got in contact once with my ex recently. He is still amazingly gorgeous as he goes the the gym often and maintains his looks. But the chemistry was gone and I see clearly now his issues which I never saw before. I am no longer comparing him to other men and it is easier to see there will eventually be someone out there for me I think is perfect. I think it takes a few years of being away from someone who you had tremendous chemistry with and had time to get very emotionally attached. Someone stated once you will never get the emotional highs you will have in an affair. It is like a drug and you become addictted to the uncertainty,drama,romance,longing,pain. So may of us think it must be true love when all of these emotions begin to rule our lives due to someone. I am realistically wondering if these feelings really do mean love. If a friend told me she was in love, but I saw her relationship was filled with all of these anxiety riddled emotions, I would tell her she is in a toxic relationship and would easily recognize what she is calling love is very unhealthy. But we cannot see this when we are the ones in these situations. Both these posts are awesome!!!
wheelwright Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 East, I am sorry you are having troubles. Give yourself some more time. I found a great guy not long after. He entered my life at the right time, I guess. I wasn't thinking of MM daily or hourly - don't get me wrong, I was heartbroken about how things ended, but it was a choice I had to make for my sanity. When I started dating H, I told him all about the xMM and he never judged me or told me what a dope I was I did date 2 others before H and sometimes I felt like the saying "You have to kiss a lot of toads before you find a prince". :laugh: One day at at time. When you least expect it, it will happen. But you have to make sure you are open to someone and not still missing/thinking about the xMW. You need to extract her from the corner and put her memories on a shelf and close the box. I really like FO's advice. You have to really visualise doing this. Choose the box, perhaps wrap the memories in a silk scarf. And if you are not ready to bury them, at least put them on the shelf. If you think of xMW when with new potential dates, really put that thought in a box. I thought about this issue today, because I listened to some music that I listened to during my A, and it triggered memories of the adrenalin. I was able to acknowledge to myself for the first time that the adrenaline aspect of the A is part of what I miss. Missing that is its own reward, because it is part misery to be driven by the need for such kicks. I did love xMOM, and I feel lonely without that connection. I was always aware that connections of that intensity don't crop up very often. On top of the connection though, is that internal willingness to fall in love. To undergo that transformation. I'm not sure that is something you can just put in place. It's a potential for magic. I do think you are more likely to be there if you are healed in yourself. So I think I would look for a connection, without the adrenaline kick of an A, and without comparison to xAP. Explore connections on their own terms without comparison. And be aware that falling love may not happen, but that a healthy connection can be rewarding and intimate. I know I am not capable of falling in love right now (even if I were fully single). I have only done it twice. I think it's true we meet people who we connect with relatively frequently. I do not feel we fall in love more than once or twice in a lifetime. And it is not for many of us that the person we fall hard for is also our life partner. It may be a life partner is a good companion. Contemplate the virtues of prospective partners as you feel they may make life companions, rather than whether they rock your boat to its core. Thinking as I write, hope it makes sense.
jlola Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 [ If true you'd think they would know better than to trust him. __________________ "This space available" E7, Not comparing him to you at all.ut interesting he seems to have affairs in all of his marriages with people who work for him or are close to him somehow. He must get a kick of doing the forbidden with someone who is so close to his life. If he marries the woman he is having an affair with now, that will make it 3rd affair partner he married. I guess the adrenaline rush of the affair takes him to the alter,then reality sets in. Cannot see anything extrodinary about any of the women he is involved with. Very average compoared to the beautiful women who must hit on him everyday. He is the laziest man in America:) Whatever woman is within his reach is the woman he will fall in love with,have an affair with and marry. I guess he figures God put these "soulmates" within his path. Such a coincidence. Just doing the math here but does this mean he left wife #1 to marry their nanny, left wife #2 to marry his publicist, and is now leaving wife #3 becaues of the best friends wife? In other words did each of his marriages get broken up by him [COLOR=blue]cheating[/COLOR] and then he married the person he was cheating with?
Author East7 Posted March 23, 2011 Author Posted March 23, 2011 Thanks WW and FO for the great posts. Putting the memories in a box, yes, I guess it happens naturally with time. It is not that I am emotionally unavailable. xMW was a very smart, ambitious and successful woman. She had so much class. I guess I have higher expectations now than before. It is like you have been driving a Ferrari (which wasn't mine ) and now I have to be happy with a little car. Its a time thing. Thats all. And there is no cure. It isnt a matter of meeting Ms. Right its a matter of metting her at the right time. The irony of that is xMW used to tell me very often if she wasn't married, she would marry me in a heartbeat! That would kill me.. Before I married - When I was an OW - I had no misconceptions about the A w/ MM going nowhere. I continued to date single men...but I am really monogomous by nature so as long as I was in a relationship with MM I was not available. You were in a relationship with MW, possibly monogomous on your part...so, its going to take the time to get over that any relationship does. Plus, you have to trade in the fantasy expectations built during an affair for real expectations of a real relationship - so theres that. This is a very good point on monogamy. For my part, I have known other women during the A, even slept with, and I used to feel like I was cheating on xMW, while she was with her H everyday. How sick is that? I felt guilty each time I would kiss another woman.
2sure Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 This is a very good point on monogamy. For my part, I have known other women during the A, even slept with, and I used to feel like I was cheating on xMW, while she was with her H everyday. How sick is that? I felt guilty each time I would kiss another woman. Probably because you're a good guy with much to offer Ms. Right at the right time.
carhill Posted March 23, 2011 Posted March 23, 2011 OP, accept that you're not yet 'free' of the MW. I felt that tug for many years, through relationships and a marriage and, now finally free, can clearly see the difference, which I feel is an enormous positive. Balancing that positive to some extent is the reality of being truly alone; no love, no desire, no potential. Perhaps those realities were never there, but it *felt* like they were and therein lies the difference. Hope your recovery process is much easier and faster. I was about your age, perhaps a bit younger, when 'things' started. Look under my avatar for my current age. Enlightening
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