ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I am starting this thread because I hope it will help men; specifically those that qualify as the proverbial nice guy/borderline doormat. You guys know who you are; certainly you girls do as well, if you’re dating one and playing him/them like a fiddle. I have noticed a trend here on LS (specifically in the dating section). The guys who fit the nice guy/doormat description have very low self worth. They lack actual, preconceived deal breakers -- I’m talking about a set of situations or events that require the relationship go no further, if she steps over that threshold. Finito. I was once this way, but no longer. I am a “fully recovered nice guy,” if you will, and I feel for guys that put up with crap/compromise themselves and what they really want romantically, because of their own weakness. Gentlemen that know they fall into this category, you must do some hardcore introspection immediately. You must really look within to find out what your craziest pet peeves are, what you can and can’t live with, and what is downright unacceptable. You must map these things out as your set of rules to live by – hard and fast ones – and you must abide like them like you would any law in our society. Moreover, you must realize/reconnect with your personal self worth. Think about all that you’ve worked for to get to this point in your life. Have you worked hard? Have you earned it? If so, own that. Don’t let anyone or any woman marginalize the challenges you’ve taken on and successes you’ve earned to get here. If you’re not there just yet, or have ambitions for your life, you must place those before relationships and let the women you see know that they do not come first, working your personal plan for success does. The men that know what I know and live by their own rules (i) don’t take crap from women (frankly because we appreciate it’s a waste of time and energy); (ii) earn respect from their male counterparts; and (iii) earn respect from the women they date, as well as the women observing you while you’re dating whoever it is you’re dating.
Darren Taylor Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I think the problem is many people struggle to find a happy medium. You many people that are either pathetic pushovers, or they're miserable a**holes that treat others like crap. I think the whole nice guy/bad boy thing is blown out of proportion. If you have a backbone, you shouldn't have a problem.
Imajerk17 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Out of curiosity ConflictedGuy, when did you realize you need to change, and how did you change? Did you figure this out by yourself or did you have a mentor?
Cracker Jack Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I agree with this topic 100%. I admire this way of thinking. My problem is actually following this logic. Sometimes I even get to the point where I would consider accepting any girl...no matter what, as long as she's into me--whether she treats me like crap or not. Makes me feel like a total loser, too. The part about needing to reconnect with our self worth really takes the cake for me is really important for me. I usually try to convince myself that I'm not a pushover, but even my inner self doesn't believe that.
fishtaco Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I'm a recovered nice guy myself, and I approve of this thread.
TheBigQuestion Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Meh. This thread would make sense if there were actually a lot of "nice guys" on these boards. Most of the self-pitying dudes on LS don't even reach the level of the stereotypical nice guy because they don't get ANY female attention in the first place, much less actually getting into relationships.
Author ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 Out of curiosity ConflictedGuy, when did you realize you need to change, and how did you change? Did you figure this out by yourself or did you have a mentor? Good question. Last year around February I had to divorce my wife of 3 years because I discovered she was cheating on me. She was unapologetic about it and eventually I manned up and did what I had to do - dump her. It was one of the hardest things I ever had to do. After I left her, I was single for almost a year and went through IC. There I took a long and hard look in the mirror and decided to rebuild my social life. Once I made strides in that regard, I began watching how buddies of mine were operating in the dating world. These guys were unapologetic, some slept around (not all), but all that were successful with women lived by hard and fast rules, and didn't take crap. It went against everything I knew really. I mean how were these guys doing so well? In it's basic form, my buddies have an agenda they're looking to get accomplished in life (travel, professional aspirations, etc.) and no woman could ever measure up as sufficient to derail their drive to fulfill those dreams/ambitions. It's important to note that these guys aren't jerks nor disrespectful to women. Conversely, their style was just honest; like pure honesty. They told women they didn't want to be tied down; they admitted what they had going on (the projects they'd never be able to compete with, etc.); and they explained what their hard and fast rules were - up front. Many women agreed and later broke those rules. Those that did got dumped. I saw what self worth actually looked like, in practice. I learned from them that I was marginalizing my own self worth. I was way too nice and accomodating. Therefore I changed, for the better. 1
Imajerk17 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Your wife was unapologetic about cheating? Damn... If I may ask, how did she justify it? Anyway, I salute you for making the changes like that. You know how many guys would still be down and out? You seem to have learned, and are totally thriving. Really cool...
Author ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 Your wife was unapologetic about cheating? Damn... If I may ask, how did she justify it? How else? She used every cheater platitude in the book: "I love you but I fell out of love with you months ago..." "I'm just done with this whole thing..." "No, I don't want to go to counseling, we're done..." "If you don't quit hounding me about an affair, I'm going to sleep at my girlfriend's house..." She said crap like that but never admitted to the affair. Not even when I confronted her with instant messaging transcripts. Classic. Ironically, if I lived by my original post when I was dating her, we would have broken up years prior to actually marrying -- which is what I meant by appreciating that to not hold to one's personal rules equals a waste of time and energy. I wasted time, energy and resources. It cost nearly double to divorce her than what it did to get married (not including the ring), and neither of us lawyered up. We went through mediation.
mr.dream merchant Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 I salute the OP and stand behind what he says 100%. Have a close friend of mine who plays that nice guy to a certain extent, it fetches him no success with women. He's kind of oblivious to the fact that just because a woman keeps you around to talk, likes to talk to you, doesn't mean at all that she'll sleep with you. He keeps his hopes high and only ends up disappointed in the end, all the time. Cause of this, he marginalizes, or ends up with women who are below his standards ie. overweight women, unattractive women, etc.. Coincidentally, you've created this thread while one I made is floating around. It's about a woman I wanted to have NSA fun with, made that much clear to her, she wanted a relationship. Feel free, OP and others, to check that thread out.
Author ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 Meh. This thread would make sense if there were actually a lot of "nice guys" on these boards. Most of the self-pitying dudes on LS don't even reach the level of the stereotypical nice guy because they don't get ANY female attention in the first place, much less actually getting into relationships. I believe the guys you describe turn into the ones I describe, once they finally get into relationships. The idea is to warn them before they get there.
Author ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 The part about needing to reconnect with our self worth really takes the cake for me is really important for me. I usually try to convince myself that I'm not a pushover, but even my inner self doesn't believe that. I believe this is the key. It all stems from self respect and knowing your worth/potential. That's where you harness the discipline to not take crap. Spending time alone is how I came to reconnect with my own self worth and potential. I didn't date for many months after my last relationship (my ex wife) and I went on many walks and did a lot of soul searching. The straw that broke the camels back and really drove the point home was seeing how my male friends operated in the dating world. They put themselves first and women second and they clean up doing so. I was so used to operating the other way around for so long that I marginalized my own self worth, for just about any woman that paid me attention.
Author ConflictedGuy27 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Posted March 21, 2011 I think the problem is many people struggle to find a happy medium. I agree with you. After all, by definition, there is no "happy medium" when referring to the point of no return. When you understand what your deal breakers are and convey them to your SO/romantic interest and they break them, there should be no compromise, now should there? I mean think about it, if you determine that her going out to a club 4 times a week (for example) is a deal breaker for you, than that's it... wouldn't you say? You shouldn't try to change the person. If that's what she wants to do, I believe you should simply inform them what your plan is to do - stop seeing her. I believe this "happy medium", compromising attitude nonsense is the root of the problems I see.
AD1980 Posted March 21, 2011 Posted March 21, 2011 Good point..Ive never been in a relationship or anything and i sometimes fele id accept anything just to feel the warmth of a women whos actually into me which in my 30 years i havent..which can be dangerous.. Its hard to be picky when youve gone so long and had zero sucess..
thatdog Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 I think it is often difficult to work out exactly what should be a deal breaker though. Especially for those who haven't been in many relationships. Sure cheating is obv going to be on almost everyone's list, but what about your mention of going clubbing 4 times a week? maybe thats excessive, but for some people they would be ok with that , or maybe only 3,2 or once a week? How about canceling dates? there has to be sme flexibility here but how much should you allow? or talking to guys? exes? etc. If you haven't been in these situations before it's very difficult to predetermine what your limits should be. I know I am also a nice guy type and I'm going through yet another breakup because of it atm. I'm in the process of looking at my actions and trying to decide on my boundaries sp I can be more assertivethe next time around. But I still loook back on how i reacted tos ome things in this relationship and feel that a lot of what some people see as deal breakers I was perfectly fine with and NOT jsut cos I would let them slide to be with her. Such individual choices are pretty tough to figure out if you aren't comfortable with the dating/relationships scene yet.
andrew-bkk Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 In it's basic form, my buddies have an agenda they're looking to get accomplished in life (travel, professional aspirations, etc.) and no woman could ever measure up as sufficient to derail their drive to fulfill those dreams/ambitions. It's important to note that these guys aren't jerks nor disrespectful to women. Conversely, their style was just honest; like pure honesty. They told women they didn't want to be tied down; they admitted what they had going on (the projects they'd never be able to compete with, etc.); and they explained what their hard and fast rules were - up front. Many women agreed and later broke those rules. Those that did got dumped. I saw what self worth actually looked like, in practice. I learned from them that I was marginalizing my own self worth. I was way too nice and accomodating. Therefore I changed, for the better. That's a superb post.
ChessPieceFace Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 None of that makes any sense to me. "you were a nice guy and now you aren't" ... "you realized you had standards" -- huh? What? First off, you don't sound very nice in your OP so I will have to agree with your assertion that you are not a nice guy. Kudos? Mission accomplished? LOL. Second -- I am a "no-self esteem nice guy" IRL and I have TONS of standards. I like to put it this way: I only have 2 problems with dating. I'm not good enough for anyone, and no one's good enough for me. Anyway, if your assertion is that "having standards and conveying that you have them" somehow lets you succeed at dating, I disagree strongly.
dispatch3d Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 None of that makes any sense to me. "you were a nice guy and now you aren't" ... "you realized you had standards" -- huh? What? First off, you don't sound very nice in your OP so I will have to agree with your assertion that you are not a nice guy. Kudos? Mission accomplished? LOL. Second -- I am a "no-self esteem nice guy" IRL and I have TONS of standards. I like to put it this way: I only have 2 problems with dating. I'm not good enough for anyone, and no one's good enough for me. Anyway, if your assertion is that "having standards and conveying that you have them" somehow lets you succeed at dating, I disagree strongly. Having standards is obviously a huge hindrance to dating; the more judgmental you are of other people, the less friends you will have. If you have only 5 friends in the world, then perhaps you are too judgmental. If only 3 girls in the world are datable, perhaps you are too critical of others. I wouldn't confuse the above with putting up with other peoples attacks on your self esteem. It doesn't mean that in those moments when they are having a bad day you decide to not like them. It is more about making it clear you don't want to deal with this sort of thing. Think about it. If every time you went to a particular friend and accused them of something they just said okay, your right, and tried to change how much respect would you have for them? Hell I'd start messing with them just to try to get them to realize how silly they are. This is the problem of the nice guy; if the girl told him I need you to turn into a frog for me to love you, he'd start trying to turn into a frog.
wiener181 Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 Another factor that you guys are all forgetting is the type of women you are trying to date. There are some crazy girls out there just like there are some crazy jerks. But I do agree with you, if you don't know and love yourself...there is no way you can be in a positive relationship with anyone. If you keep telling yourself that all you need to be complete is to be with a woman that society claims to be beautiful...you will never be happy. The purpose of dating to me is finding someone you are compatible with and who wants the same thing out of life and a future that you do. If you don't know what you want...it will be a lot easier to keep falling into the mold of whatever the women in your life want you to be like. As for the girls that accept dates with your friends that claim to be not looking for anything serious...they don't sound very smart. It's pretty obvious they are looking for something different, I don't understand why they would put themselves in that position at all. So far, any time a guy claims to not want anything serious when I did, I have had no problem stepping away.
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