Whirlwind, then sudden pullback. Ouch.

[elaina]

So why make a big song and dance about explicitly NOT being interested in anyone else and cutting off all contact with basically the rest of your dating pool? Unless you are outright lying to my face, but that would be astonishingly out of character (or at least a complete reversal) from the very explicit policy we had with each other from Day 1 about honesty and being upfront.

 

I understand it's useless to ask these "please read his mind" questions...I'm not really trying to do that if even such a thing were possible. I don't even know why I'm so hurt when we were both (and I played this card too) all over the whole "we don't have expectations" thing. I have no right to be upset knowing what I was getting into. But he dangles that "I could fall in love with you" carrot in front of my face and I guess I lose all powers of logic. That really does not make me feel fantastic about myself. Like, at all.

 

Yeah, I think that's a carrot, sad to say.

 

This has no reflection on you. You can't force this guy to be honest even with himself.

 

One thing that is good though is that you didn't become exclusive with him, while he's still seeing other women and not telling you the truth in that respect. That would hurt an awful lot too, maybe more so?

 

I am sorry about this.

[acrossthemiles1]

I know it's not a reflection on my quality as a person. But it makes me feel ashamed that I am seemingly completely incapable of being "casual" about a guy even when I am telling myself constantly that it is nothing more than casual. And it is just another layer on top of things to know that I am completely unjustified in feeling disappointed. Not only am I disappointed, I have no right to be disappointed.

 

Thanks for your support though. I hate to constantly be bugging my one or two close friends about this bullsh*t (especially when they were telling me the whole time they "didn't want to hear about it" if things didn't work out - I guess I'm more of a hopeless romantic than I pretend to be) so it's good to be able to vent about this crap into the relative anonymity of cyberspace.

 

I guess the main stumbling block for me now is the way we left things the last time we saw each other. We were both really happy. He told me how happy he was feeling. Then...nothing.

 

All of this makes zero sense to me. Zero.

[dreamer0123]

Hey!

 

I just read through your thread- I'm in a simialrish situation as you and it upsets me that you are going through this.

 

Being older (31)I met someone online as well (31 as well)- and we had a great connection! We eventually met up and things started progressing physically as well. He kept making all these futuristic plans- (all initiated by him). A few weeks into it- he freaked out. He told me that he thought things were moving too fast (we were talking everyday within the first few weeks and he kept making the plans)- and he was also talking to someone else (we haven't had the exclusive conversation yet so I couldn't really expect him just to be with me)- I told him that I wasn't going to convince him to see me and it was his choice but I wasn't looking for a friends with benefits situation.. we had plans the following friday- we decided to keep them but to meet up as friends.

 

When we met up- he tried to kiss me but i turned away- as the night progressed and we became slightly intoxicated- he told me he wanted to be exclusive but he wants to take it slow. So we are at that point- I've backed off- and things are slowly moving on. However- just due to my last breakup- I have a lot of insecurities- and although I appreciate his honesty- that conversation kind of threw me off.. but I'm happy with him at the same time... it's hard to explain.

 

SO- my theory is guys initially get caught up (without thinking) and just stay stuff. Then when they realize what've they've done- they freak out because they are scared or unsure of what they want. It just sucks because they don't realize that our feelings are involved too...

 

I would suggest backing off- I mean don't answer when he calls or texts or messages... don't answer right away and try focusing on you. I know it's hard- esp since you want it to work out- but I think that's a good first step.

 

No idea if this is useful or not....

[acrossthemiles1]

It was helpful, thank you. Honestly, there is no logical reason for this but it does help to know that I am not the only one being dragged through this (to me) utterly retarded scenario. Even though your situation sounds marginally more optimistic than mine, ha...

 

My (long-time platonic male) friend had some good insight into this whole thought process, having engaged in similar behavior himself - in less-wise days, lol...

 

We all want to be in love, and we sell it as such. Then comes the point where we're supposed to be in love. And we reach it, and realize we've been chasing an ideal, and set ourselves up to need to be "in love" with someone. But we're not. That spark isn't there - so we withdraw, and shut down. We're living out marketing.

 

We hold this ideal of what a relationship should be. So when we feel something more than a one night stand, we push towards this ideal and speak like we're in love. Or try to fall in love, to force ourselves to match our ideal. Which makes it, when it is actually a short term infatuation, difficult to sever ties, unless both people are truly open to that. Most people aren't. We understand one night stand. We understand life time love. Short term relationships, casual relationships...some people get, and some don't.

 

I thought this resonated quite closely with something this guy said to me, a few weeks back when the whole pullback started: "My anxiety comes from not being good at letting anything linger in limbo...I need to be in something, or it has to be very transient - the in between period is awkward for me. I am sure it is Catholic bullsh*t programming, but I carry it around with me."

 

So then in relation to my situation with this guy, my friend frames it in this way:

 

So now you've slept with someone. Okay - we have this choice. A) one night stand, or b) relationship. In most of our minds relationship = in love. We forget the happy medium of loving. Which, I'd argue, is where the real being "in love" falls. Not the fool ideal that we shoot for.

 

What it sounds like happened is you and him got together. Choice A was vetoed. But you two never built a strong platonic relationship to truly love each other. Since you both were, whether or not you knew/admitted it, both gunning for being 'in love." He constructed the idea that he should be in love with you. And then found out that he wasn't yet. So there's this gap in what he has said and what he thought he felt, and what he actually feels. So his recourse is silence - to disconnect from the source of the emotional confusion in order to assess his sentiment. So your frustration with him is a mirror of what he probably feels.

 

...I guess it's a bit tacky to copy and paste a conversation like this, but I just thought it was so apt.

[Gala]

I see a few factors in play here:

 

- A relatively recent divorce. Even after a divorce is final, it will still create emotional volatility and uncertainty.

- Divorce notwithstanding, this guy is in a stage of his life that he is starting to contemplate his desire to be a father. He doesn't sound ready, but it's a focus for him...in a distracting "should" kind of way. Plays into the ideals that your male friend wrote about (an insightful passage, BTW).

- The very romantic nature of a long-distance relationship, however illusory certain aspects of it may be. Eventually, the rubber has to meet the road...and your moving to NY will help that happen.

 

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about not being "capable" of non-attachment. Most functional people are not, and there are lots of folks who say they're fine with casual dating who are lying to themselves and others. Humans are fairly possessive creatures, generally speaking.

 

And at any rate, take care of yourself!

[Olivia1966]

he was feeling more and more distanced from me in our times apart, which consequently affected his feelings in the times we were together.

 

Somehow, this makes me think that this guy confuses the endorphin rush for love. When you are apart, the endorphins die down, and the "love" goes away.

[acrossthemiles1]

Somehow, this makes me think that this guy confuses the endorphin rush for love. When you are apart, the endorphins die down, and the "love" goes away.

Possibly, but I'm not too sure that's the case. I think it's more a matter of him having a set idea in his head about how these things should progress and what sort of "script" they should follow. Long absences in between are not part of the script - therefore, neither am I, I guess.

 

I see a few factors in play here:

 

- A relatively recent divorce. Even after a divorce is final, it will still create emotional volatility and uncertainty.

I do think that has to play SOME role in all this. Not only was there a divorce, but she had an affair as well. He seems to have dealt with it fairly well, but surely that must influence things to some degree. This is all (relatively) recent - within the last year or so - stuff.

 

- Divorce notwithstanding, this guy is in a stage of his life that he is starting to contemplate his desire to be a father. He doesn't sound ready, but it's a focus for him...in a distracting "should" kind of way. Plays into the ideals that your male friend wrote about (an insightful passage, BTW).

I thought it was insightful too.

 

And I agree with what you have said, but not sure how that "plays into things" as it were? I mean, unless he expects to get a chick knocked up within the first month of dating her, lol...why would it influence our current situation? Just curious.

 

- The very romantic nature of a long-distance relationship, however illusory certain aspects of it may be. Eventually, the rubber has to meet the road...and your moving to NY will help that happen.

Honestly, I'm not really sure if we'll even be speaking by the time I get to New York. I guess it's either "out of sight, out of mind" or "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and I'm obviously not in the latter category.

 

As for this...

I hope you don't beat yourself up too much about not being "capable" of non-attachment. Most functional people are not, and there are lots of folks who say they're fine with casual dating who are lying to themselves and others. Humans are fairly possessive creatures, generally speaking.

I know, and I wouldn't beat myself up over it...thing is, I DON'T think I approach all relationships like this, which is why this particular one has thrown me for such a loop in that I DID (apparently) want something to come of it. There are guys who I have tried it on with, dating-wise, and gotten to relatively the same level of intimacy without any desire on my part to push it forward.

 

There is another guy who I have been interested in for a while, who I have sort of held off on seeing while this whole thing played out, and the appeal there is much the same (he is a scientist as well, although from another country, so there is somewhat of a language barrier). But I am concerned about falling into the cycle of just moving on to a new guy to get over the last one and then falling for the new guy and then being let down all over again. So, I am not sure how to handle it, the next time I see him...

[Gala]

If the divorce has been part of the last year for this guy, it is absolutely affecting his perception and judgment.

 

Re. your question about your ex's expectations for his life - they bring in more pressure, which likely influences his behavior.

 

I think that if the scientist expresses interest in the near future, it's a good idea to be forthcoming. You don't have to bare your soul, but let him know you've been in a situation that is requiring some recovery time. This is a normal part of human functioning.

[acrossthemiles1]

If the divorce has been part of the last year for this guy, it is absolutely affecting his perception and judgment.

Well, I think the initial break and separation (and the events precipitating it) were probably some time ago, but the divorce was finalized last summer. That makes me wonder though...I ended my own long-term relationship just last July...it was a marriage in all but name (civil partnership) so, I'm wondering how much my perception and judgment are affected. I honestly don't feel like they are, at least insofar as that relationship is concerned, but then I was the one who instigated the breakup...even though he technically instigated his too, it was really down to the actions of his partner. I don't know.

 

As for the new guy...he has known that something is "up" with me and this other scientist dude. So, I don't want to be tacky and say too much about it. I'm just not really sure how involved I should get, although I really like him, while I'm still essentially hung up on the first guy. FML...

[Gala]

You don't need to worry about "tackiness" as much as you should pay attention to being clear...and with yourself, too.

 

It does sound like you and Guy #1 both were dealing with a lot of change in your lives. The tricky thing about this is that one can take care of the various crises and breaking points at the upper level of the emotions, but still be affected at subtler levels. I think about this phenomenon quite a lot these days. My mother died in the fall, at the advanced age of almost 92. It was expected, her end was somewhat peaceful, I've had time to mourn, and yet I know I still have processing to do.

[acrossthemiles1]

You don't need to worry about "tackiness" as much as you should pay attention to being clear...and with yourself, too.

 

It does sound like you and Guy #1 both were dealing with a lot of change in your lives. The tricky thing about this is that one can take care of the various crises and breaking points at the upper level of the emotions, but still be affected at subtler levels. I think about this phenomenon quite a lot these days. My mother died in the fall, at the advanced age of almost 92. It was expected, her end was somewhat peaceful, I've had time to mourn, and yet I know I still have processing to do.

I guess it just bugs me that we were so strict on this policy of openness from the very beginning...this was one of the big draws of the relationship (he said at the time), he wanted to create a paradigm of honesty. So, I just assumed that some degree of self-awareness would come with that. And yet he seems to be completely at the mercy of irrational anxieties and emotions and just letting himself be slung around hither and yon.

 

I'm just disappointed. Not even in him necessarily...just in the whole damn situation.

 

ETA: Also, I'm sorry about your mother. Her age and the peaceful nature of her death notwithstanding, it must have been difficult to cope with.

[Gala]

I have to say that the phrase "paradigm of honesty" (or even the concept) would set off my admittedly sensitive alarm bells. A good number of the people I've encountered in my life who spent a lot of time talking about honesty and openness have also possessed limited clarity and self-awareness...and these people have also been rather self-indulgent, as well as prone to emotional fishtailing.

 

Disappointment is natural and understandable. And learning what -- and whom -- to avoid can be time-consuming.

 

Thank you for your thoughts on my mother; I've been through a haul. I oversaw all aspects of her affairs for a few years, and last year was tough in a way that the previous ones weren't. She was under hospice care for a few months, her timeline wasn't clear, and one way and another it was rough going for everyone. But it's good to understand a bit about that process.

[acrossthemiles1]

I have to say that the phrase "paradigm of honesty" (or even the concept) would set off my admittedly sensitive alarm bells. A good number of the people I've encountered in my life who spent a lot of time talking about honesty and openness have also possessed limited clarity and self-awareness...and these people have also been rather self-indulgent, as well as prone to emotional fishtailing.

Well...to be fair, that specific phrase wasn't used, and we were both onboard with the whole "paradigm" idea. Mainly because we had both been coming from failed long-term relationships that seemed to have a lot of self-deception and lies-by-omission things going on. Plus, it was one of our common personality traits, "having no filter" and being somewhat blunt. So, I'm not really sure it would have struck me as a red flag, at least not in the way it was communicated in the beginning.

 

I'm curious though, because I am "one of those people" who really emphasizes honesty...why do you feel it implies a lack of self-awareness? To me, I feel like you CAN'T be honest (either with yourself or with others) if you are not at least somewhat cognizant of your own conscious and subconscious motivations, fears, desires...

 

Disappointment is natural and understandable. And learning what -- and whom -- to avoid can be time-consuming.

The thing is though...I'm not sure I ever would have "known" to "avoid" him (or his type) no matter how many times I'd done this dance. I mean, whatever the hell was going on in the romantic realm, it was never debated that we have extremely compatible personalities, senses of humor, intellectual capacity and interest, physical attraction, etc...I really had very few misgivings right up until the whole pullback started. It really just came out of the blue for me. (And again, I'm not sure why I say that given that I never had any guarantees. I guess...I just didn't expect it to happen like THIS.)

 

Thank you for your thoughts on my mother; I've been through a haul. I oversaw all aspects of her affairs for a few years, and last year was tough in a way that the previous ones weren't. She was under hospice care for a few months, her timeline wasn't clear, and one way and another it was rough going for everyone. But it's good to understand a bit about that process.

Ugh. I have very unclear thoughts and feelings on death. I am not really sure how to feel, in a way...my mom's oldest sister died a few months ago, and it was a very strange time for me. Number one, because I am a bit of a black sheep in my (very close-knit, conservative, Catholic) family, and number two, I just don't seem to mourn in the same way most people do - particularly when the deceased was severely unwell and, towards the end, in a great deal of pain. So, I try to steer clear of those issues altogether and just try to be as supportive as possible of the people around me...

[Gala]

I see distinctions between believing in the importance of honesty, and talking about it in a way that is ultimately unreflective. Not knowing you or your ex, I am hesitant to project anything else -- as it might not be accurate. But when you talk about his emotional makeup, I start to see glimpses of people I've known.

 

In your case, maybe this experience means that in future you avoid anyone in proximity to a divorce scenario. It is tempting to feel as though one's own situation with another is unique, and not subject to unpleasant outcomes one has heard about with others. Do those policies feel limiting? They can. But they can also protect you.

 

Re. my mother and the end of her life - it was simply a wave from life that I had no choice about...I was her only child. It took every iota of maturity that I possessed, and managing it in the same way ten years earlier would have been impossible. I am lucky that she remained strong and independent for as long as she did. I have relatives, but I was the driver and decisionmaker every step of the way. One upside of this is that I had a lot of control. Like you, I was raised Catholic - albeit in CA, and I went to public schools, and generally speaking my relatives aren't intensely religious. Years ago she had asked that a certain priest (now a monsignor) conduct her memorial, and I abided by that. But we had a small memorial service for her on the roof terrace of a secular building, in a beautiful setting that she would have loved.

 

I can relate to your ambivalence around death if there are lots of issues for you around relatives and religion. I appreciate the room I've had on this front.

[acrossthemiles1]

I see distinctions between believing in the importance of honesty, and talking about it in a way that is ultimately unreflective. Not knowing you or your ex, I am hesitant to project anything else -- as it might not be accurate. But when you talk about his emotional makeup, I start to see glimpses of people I've known.

Yeah, I get you. I guess in some situations, it can be a code word for something else. Not sure what that something else might be, but it does seem to be a term that is flung around with some degree of carelessness.

 

I guess the thing I am having the hardest time with is the fact that this entire conversation basically boils down to me repeatedly asking "Why?" Why did he behave in this manner, why did he say one thing and then say another completely contradictory thing? Why has he now completely fallen off the face of the earth and does he really think this is appropriate behavior? But whatever. The end result is the same - he did, and it's done, and I should just forget about it. I'm more concerned about what my reaction will be when he (inevitably) surfaces again...because, I know me, and I know I will want to see him again. Sigh...

 

I can relate to your ambivalence around death if there are lots of issues for you around relatives and religion. I appreciate the room I've had on this front.

Yeah...I guess "ambivalent" is a good way to describe it. There is just so much pomp and circumstance surrounding Catholic funerals I just find it all hard to swallow.

 

Funny (or perhaps not so funny, but maybe telling) story: the second time I spent a weekend with this guy was the day of the funeral. This was the week after our first meeting over New Year's and we were totally twitterpated at that point...we had originally planned for me to come up Friday and stay over Saturday, but when the funeral unexpectedly came up and was scheduled for Saturday I was crushed. And then immediately felt guilty for being crushed - how dare I prefer to spend my weekend with a guy I'd only just met than to attend a family member's funeral?

 

So, I worked it so that I went to the funeral/wake in the morning and headed up to NYC in the afternoon. When I initially told him about the funeral and how I wouldn't be able to make it on Friday he was really understanding, but I was hesitant to suggest Saturday as an alternative because I was afraid he would think me incredibly selfish and twisted to want to go on a "date" immediately after a funeral.

 

But he was just like, "If you are not sad or need a getaway...both are totally normal."

 

I guess just the fact that he was so chill and understanding about it was just another reason I liked him so much.

[Gala]

That's a very interesting intertwining. Sex and death are more entangled than we usually want to think about...it's also a very potent layer of your relationship - the liberation from your family and the rituals and the heaviness.

 

When my dad died (in my 20's), I got the news while with a guy I'd just met that day. He was the roommate of a friend, we had gotten quite stoned together, and he had invited me to go away for the weekend with him. That plan was out the window when my mother called with the news that my father had died of a heart attack, but it cemented a friendship. The guy and I had been talking about my dad probably 20 minutes before. It was all quite intense. We never consummated anything (which was frustrating), and another friend of ours believed that he had me on some kind of pedestal for most of the time we knew each other. Trippy.

 

I suggest that you read some of the posts here on No Contact. This concept is very helpful for shifting one's thinking on the end of a relationship, what it means, and how one deals with the other afterward. You may get to a place that you realize he's not what you want.

[acrossthemiles1]

The thing is though...it was never really a "relationship" in the first place so how can I consider this the "end" of anything? That's probably just me trying to convince myself that it's fine for me to keep going out with him after this...I mean hey, we had no hard and fast rules on frequency of contact, right? Ugh.

[acrossthemiles1]

Ha...I don't even know what to say about it anymore.

 

I guess when he kissed me goodbye and said "talk soon" - he was using the term "soon" loosely.

[TokyoG33kyGal]

i agree with Gala that the recent divorce might have come into play. i was in a similar situation before when i started to date again after ending my long term relationship. met a guy and found out while we were dating that he's still undergoing a divorce (this was more difficult since he's still on the process). i thought his divorced was finalized so i kept seeing him. we were doing so good until his ex contacted him (regarding divorce matters) and that f*cked him up. he also got cheated on by his ex wife, three times while he was away.

 

we had a connection but he was confused. i was ready to bank on something solid. he kept doing this hot and cold thing when i distance myself away. i then finally decided just cut him off and move on. last thing i wanna do was keep pining over someone when i left the ex for the very same reason -- his uncertainty.

[Gala]

You may not have had a formalized relationship, but without question you had a sustained connection. And with any connection, and especially one where sex is involved, the question to ask yourself is "What do I need?" along with "How do I want to feel?"

[acrossthemiles1]

I guess it was a "sustained connection" - you're right. Of course, one with deliberately few rules and expectations, such that now I feel I have "no right" to be upset about his sudden silent treatment.

 

I hate just pinballing back and forth between detached curiosity (what's he possibly going to say to explain away his absence?) and outright hurt. There was absolutely no indication in his behavior during our last weekend together that this was about to happen. Yet I'm constantly steeling myself, preparing myself for that lone email in my inbox that starts out with By now I guess you've figured out, I don't want to see you any more...

 

I really just cannot get it through my head. I've tried; I've told myself, "This is the way it is." But it still makes no sense at all.

[Gala]

I'm not sure what puts you in a place where you are anticipating rejection and disappointment, especially in the manner you describe. But you know that you don't want the situation anymore, and that is a start.

[acrossthemiles1]

I'm not sure what puts you in a place where you are anticipating rejection and disappointment, especially in the manner you describe. But you know that you don't want the situation anymore, and that is a start.

Really? The fact that he's gone this long without so much as saying a word to me...you don't take that as a sign that he's no longer interested?

 

Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it certainly seems like a rejection to me. (I don't even mean it in a pejorative sense, just in that he's clearly not interested in seeing me or even making contact again.)

[Gala]

One of the most powerful aspects of No Contact is that you totally shift your thinking away from the other person and his/her interests. It is about you and what you want. In the beginning, it can be tricky (sort of like Taoism). But just keep thinking about what you need, and what will work for you. Doesn't matter that he cut off communication without explaining. Doesn't matter that right now part of you still wants him. People generally know how they should be acting toward others, whether they do so or not -- and this includes your ex. Stay focused on yourself.

 

Others will behave in ways that trigger our anxieties and insecurities. This doesn't mean that you believe the stories that rear their heads in those moments.

[acrossthemiles1]

So if he does contact me, you suggest I ignore him?