Nikki Sahagin Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 why do many religious people, particularly extremists, want to take free will away? I find it one of the greatest hypocrisies of religion which is why I consider myself to be an open minded (to all outcomes after death) spiritualist but never religious. I could never follow a religion because I don't agree with man made constructs about life after death and I don't believe in the strictness which limits potential for questioning, curiosity or doubt. I don't think God would resent a person for being unsure or for not calling themselves a Christian or Muslim - I think he would see into the person that they are and their deeds. I don't think God would want his creations to live a life in fear, panic and dread in the event that God won't accept them, unless he hated his creations, in which case, I do not want to be with God in death. The idea of free will is slippery because if all people had all freedoms the world would be a chaos, yet with too many rules and regulations people are like pigs waiting for slaughter, unable to move or breath. Freedom with consequences is the way we should live, that we are free so long as we are compassionate. As soon as we hurt another person in a serious sense, murder, rape etc, we have that freedom taken away. But I dislike religions that clamp down on fun or freedom. I think for this reason, written religion was used as a means to remove creativity, freedom, individuality and curiosity from man by making them feel fearful and doubtful of the eternal consequences. I think God wouldn't mind us being free and happy, but Governments and people can benefit from people being too afraid to think for themselves. Religion is the tool that many have attempted to use to keep people afraid and controlled so that they can exploit them. An example of this is to turn the other cheek when someone hits you (why? So a bully can potentially kill you and your family?) It's exploitation.
Ross PK Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) This is part of the reason why religion disgusts me so much, the other part of the reason is how immoral it is, because of all the evil things people do in the name of religion. The other day after having a very sinister experience with an American religious freak trying to convert me, which involved him shaking my hand, I actually felt the overwhelming urge to wash my hands once I had got home, and, I actually did. Might sound like some sort of an over reaction, but religion, especially those strict cult like ones that you usually get in America, actually make me feel sick. Edited March 16, 2011 by Ross PK
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted March 20, 2011 Author Posted March 20, 2011 Yes I agree with you. It would have been nice to have had some opinions from religious folk. I think freedom is the most beautiful gift a person can have, if they don't abuse it.
Tayla Posted March 20, 2011 Posted March 20, 2011 Most persons at some point deserve the ability to question things and religion is one that is explored and re-evaluated. I appreciate the poster who questions things be it thru the writings of the "holy books" or the deeds of its followers. It deserves to be challenged as well. Its up to the individual to find either truth from it or toss it to the side as ludricious. I personally started at my teen years to re-evaluate the religion I was so cloistered to take as the absolute truth. Boy what an eye opener that was! I had to turn away and seek what spiritual footing I could. In no way do I regret the teachings I was brought up in there were really some things I have applied in my daily life, the difference is...the choice had to made from the heart and not from whether it was "socially" acceptable by the community that followed it blindly. The bottom line is simple....Choose at will, live by those convictions and at the end of the day..be at peace. I have a friend that is an atheist by nature and yet some how we manage to respect each others view points and lifestyle choices. Oddly enough he is more apt to do good deeds because he doesnt fear a pre fabricated god.
ShatteredReality Posted March 22, 2011 Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) Well you said you'd like to hear from someone who was religious on the matter. I am willing to give my opinion. I do not want to be attacked for this opinion, or insulted. I generally stay out of religious discussions because people become way too heated on the subject and tend to resort to offensive remarks and belittling. Having said that - here's my opinion on the matter of free will. God gave man free will - the ability to make choices for himself. If you read in the Bible, in the beginning, Adam was put in charge of the Earth and the animals on it - he named them and cared for them. In order to show his appreciation and prove his loyalty to his creator, though, he was given one restriction - not to eat from a certain tree. He could eat whatever he wanted - just not the fruit of the ONE tree. This wasn't an unreasonable request - if you think about it logically in the context of the story being told - this man would need at least one rule to remind him that someone created him and that, while he was basically in charge of this entire world in front of him, there was still someone greater than him. As the creator I don't personally feel this to be unreasonable. Once Satan came and deceived Eve, though, and she in turn coerced Adam into eating from the tree as she had, imperfection set in. If man didn't have free will he would never have disobeyed that rule put forth on him. Having rules and having free will aren't different. Rather than viewing rules as being constricting it's sometimes better to see them for what they really are - a protection. Consider, if you will, some of the rules put forth through the Mosaic law that are not in effect now. Circumcision - this was an aide in keeping a man clean and staving off infections in a time when cleanliness wasn't the easiest thing to maintain. However, that rule was lifted as man was able to better understand methods for keeping clean and the consequences of NOT keeping clean. Eating Pork - again - affected by the cleanliness factor. What once was not safe to eat now is because of modern abilities to sterilize and clean the food, as well as storage and such. If you believe in God and you believe that, as stated in the Bible "God is love" then you would also believe that any "rules" he's given us are for our benefit. They are out of that love. They are a protection, not a restriction. Promiscuity can lead to disease and unwanted children, in addition to heartache and depression on the emotional end of things. Drug abuse can and often does lead to death, but poor health and limited mental capacity at the very least are a concern. Murder and theft are fairly obvious as to why there would be rules against those...rather than go into every little rule and regulation I think you get the idea. Now, in the garden, when Satan challenged God - he never challenged his power or his rule - instead he challenged mans use of the given free will. Why did he do this? Because challenging Gods power would be a quick and easy "bam!" you're dead to Satan. Challenging whether he was the best ruler for man or if man could better rule himself was a much smarter move. In order to prove this man had to be given the chance to rule himself without Gods direct influence. Satan also challenged whether man would love God for creating him, or would he turn his back on him. Greed and vanity have created a huge issue for many. In their desire to gain power and self recognition many men and many religions have distorted the true facts...have used them against the people who want so badly to love God and appreciate him, have created the fear, panic and dread you described. Because man has chosen to abuse his free will doesn't mean he doesn't have any. People have the ability to choose a religion, to believe it, to follow it...or not. It's up to each of us to prove to ourselves what we believe, not up to anybody else. In Matthew Jesus did instruct his desciples to go forth and preach and teach - but there is a difference between guiding someone and teaching them religious truths or scaring the S out of them until they comply like a beaten dog. God doesn't want such followers...he wants people who believe in him, love him, appreciate him, and want to live in the world he originally created for man to live in. I don't know if I answered your question exactly...and I am certainly not trying to sway your belief system over to my own - hopefully you can see that - I am just sharing my opinion on the matter of free will....we have it, how we choose to use it is up to us...rules are not a restriction of free will as much as guidance for how to use it properly....and yes, there are many out there who abuse it and DO create unreasonable restrictions on their people, thereby causing more stress and hearthache than what's necessary. Edited March 22, 2011 by ShatteredReality sp
Buddha Posted April 8, 2011 Posted April 8, 2011 The idea of free will is slippery because if all people had all freedoms the world would be a chaos Some people would argue that the world IS in chaos. Regarding free will, I don't think you have not fully understood the concept. Because spiritually, free will cannot be understood in isolation and it seems like you are looking at only one side of the equation. I don't know if you are of a scientific mind, but one principle of science is the law of action and reaction. Most people accept that actions have consequences, and that reactions have a cause. So you have repeated actions and reactions, and reactions to the reactions, and so on. We see this quite clearly in the scientific sphere of experimentation, but it is also true of our lives and our choices. The truth is that we are perfectly free to make any choice we like -- the other side of this truth is that the universe is free to return to us the consequences of our free will choices. So what we do will be returned to us at an energetic level - we will have to meet the consequences at some point. It can take a while to see the return, but I assure you it always comes. So the unwise see free will as an excuse to do whatever they like for they live only for today and for their selfish desires. The wise know that what they send out, they will have to experience again through the return, so they learn to send out positivity, peace and love. The Christian religion says it in this way: "What you reap, so shall you sew." Use your free will wisely.
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 13, 2011 Author Posted April 13, 2011 Interesting responses from you both. I am grateful that you took the time to reply. I suppose my question is: why do some religious people feel threatened by free will?
JohnnyCage Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Interesting responses from you both. I am grateful that you took the time to reply. I suppose my question is: why do some religious people feel threatened by free will? No religious man would feel threatened by free will if these people would stop disrespecting the beliefs of the religious people. Using free will as an excuse you see people openly bashing up Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed. I think the majority of the people doesn't even know what free will actually means.
TheLoneSock Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 why do many religious people, particularly extremists, want to take free will away? I find it one of the greatest hypocrisies of religion which is why I consider myself to be an open minded (to all outcomes after death) spiritualist but never religious. I could never follow a religion because I don't agree with man made constructs about life after death and I don't believe in the strictness which limits potential for questioning, curiosity or doubt. I don't think God would resent a person for being unsure or for not calling themselves a Christian or Muslim - I think he would see into the person that they are and their deeds. I don't think God would want his creations to live a life in fear, panic and dread in the event that God won't accept them, unless he hated his creations, in which case, I do not want to be with God in death. You have some appalling misconceptions about Christ and the Bible. And you express these misconceptions with sweeping, ignorant generalizations.
elaina Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 (edited) why do many religious people, particularly extremists, want to take free will away? I think most extremist religious people believe they are doing the will of God by taking free will away. I agree that it does go against God-given free will if people take the free will away! Good question and very thought-provoking! I find it one of the greatest hypocrisies of religion Understood, and thanks for the rational and objective way you wrote this. which is why I consider myself to be an open minded (to all outcomes after death) spiritualist but never religious. I could never follow a religion because I don't agree with man made constructs about life after death and I don't believe in the strictness which limits potential for questioning, curiosity or doubt. I don't think God would resent a person for being unsure or for not calling themselves a Christian or Muslim - I think he would see into the person that they are and their deeds. I don't think God would want his creations to live a life in fear, panic and dread in the event that God won't accept them, unless he hated his creations, in which case, I do not want to be with God in death.Understood. No I do not think God wants people to live in fear or panic or dread either. The idea of free will is slippery because if all people had all freedoms the world would be a chaos, yet with too many rules and regulations people are like pigs waiting for slaughter, unable to move or breath. It depends on the rules/regulations and their objective. For example, if the rules/regulations are just to control people, that isn't good. However, if the rules/regulations are for the health and safety of people, that is good. I believe that God gave people commands for the well-being of people. Freedom with consequences is the way we should live, that we are free so long as we are compassionate. As soon as we hurt another person in a serious sense, murder, rape etc, we have that freedom taken away.Agreed But I dislike religions that clamp down on fun or freedom.It really depends on what a person considers to be fun. People have different ideas about what is fun, so I don't get really what you mean here. About freedoms, I believe people have "evolved" in understanding freedoms, as well as understanding other things. That is why I believe nowadays, many people of all different beliefs advocate freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of assembly, and other freedoms that do not hurt anybody. Back to fun and freedom, there are some people who are sadistic (how they become that way I have no idea) who think it's fun to hurt others. So definitely I appreciate when a government clamps down on other peoples' "fun" that would hurt others! Religion though is different. Religion doesn't look at "what I want to do for fun." Rather, religion looks through the lenses of the goals and objective of life. Most religions do not look at life as just a time to be free to have fun. I think for this reason, written religion was used as a means to remove creativity, freedom, individuality and curiosity from man by making them feel fearful and doubtful of the eternal consequences.I disagree. C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, both Christians (though Lewis = Protestant and Tolkien = Catholic) were very much creative and are known for their fiction that have now been made into movies! Did written religion remove their creativity, freedom, individuality, and curiosity? Nope. I think God wouldn't mind us being free and happy, but Governments and people can benefit from people being too afraid to think for themselves. Religion is the tool that many have attempted to use to keep people afraid and controlled so that they can exploit them.Religion can be a tool when the people who believe do not study for themselves, but rather depend on leaders who could definitely yes use religion this way. That's why it's so important to study and research, instead of just believing what other people say. An example of this is to turn the other cheek when someone hits you (why? So a bully can potentially kill you and your family?) It's exploitation.Jesus is the one who said turn the other cheek, but his teachings really need to be understood in context. Below is the context: Matthew 5 (NIV) " 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Leviticus 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Jesus is teaching the principle of not reacting in kind to those who don't like you. He is teaching that God is Judge and God is pleased with those who are kind to those who are not kind to them (see verses 44-47). This doesn't mean being a doormat or being sweet to mean people. It does mean though to not just thoughtlessly hit back someone who hit you and get into a fight and get into a cycle of revenge where you end up hurting others and being just as mean to others as they are being mean to you. That doesn't solve anything. One of my favorite quotes of Gandhi is the following: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." He shared many similar ideas with Jesus and basically his quote reflects in a way the teaching of Jesus to turn the other cheek, which is more profound and harder than the eye for eye mentality, but which has in mind the good of everyone involved, and the desire to not inflict pain and suffering on another person. This ties in to another of Jesus' teachings: to do unto others as you would have them do to you. If you don't want someone to hit you, don't hit them. If someone hits you, you don't have to lower yourself to their behavior. You can take the higher ground. Edited April 14, 2011 by elaina
ShatteredReality Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Interesting responses from you both. I am grateful that you took the time to reply. I suppose my question is: why do some religious people feel threatened by free will? Since I don't share that feeling of threat I can only speculate. If you think about it...it's all through history...it's documented in the Bible. Free will is a lack of complete control on the part of the "leader" (for lack of a better word). I.E. When God gave free will he gave man the ability to turn away from him. Therefore mans choice to love him and obey him was just that - a choice. If you read in the Bible much of what Jesus taught flew in the face of what the religious leaders of his time (and ours for that matter) were teaching. He even pointed out that one of their goals was control - which is an incorrect way for them to be thinking. They want attention, power, money....they want subservience, not brothers and sisters in faith who will stand by them in serving. They desire a higher position, above others, recognized as being better. And therefore paint God out to be some manipulative and demanding tyrant. Jesus never asked for any of that - he turned his face away from such adulation. He humbled himself to the position of a servant for his time and took to washing the feet of those who were following him - who saw themselves as lesser. In doing this he illustrated that no one is lesser...that we may not all have "equal" abilities, but when it comes to God we all owe him the same respect. After all...we all have a creator...he's the only one who can say he doesn't. In that respect, even Jesus is by our side (figuratively of course at this point, not physically...) as a fellow Willing servant to God. And those who choose not to serve...well that's their choice. Religion should never be about leading or controlling through fear...that was never Gods way of things, Jesus didn't use fear to control people...at least not the unhealthy kind. He did always lay out the consequences...but that, too, is different. The fear we're supposed to feel isn't that of being smacked around by some wooden dowell or anything like that, but instead the fear of disappointing someone we love...the same fear you or I had as children when we did something wrong and we knew we'd see that look in our parents eyes....or if you had a bad relationship with your parents how about another loved one....someone who you care about their opinion. You didn't refrain from doing things to hurt them out of "fear" of them, but out of fear of hurting them...I hope I was able to explain that....I trip over my words much of the time. But think of it like this - when you fall in love with someone...obviously you want them to love you back....or if you have kids - you want them to love you in return....but do you want them to love you because they have to or because they want to?
aerogurl87 Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 The question shouldn't be why do religious people want to take freedom away, it should be why does anyone want to take anyone else's freedom away. I've seen many atheists, theists, and agnostics alike be power hungry.
skydiveaddict Posted April 18, 2011 Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) why do many religious people, particularly extremists, want to take free will away? You're confusing free will with Christian obedience. Just because God gave you free will doesn't mean you can act outside of the natural law and do whatever you feel like doing without the consequence of grave sin. You are certainly free to do that (free will), God gave you that. But it can come at a horrible price to your soul. Here is a quick example from St. Paul: Unbelief and Its Consequences 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened... Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, ... For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Edited April 18, 2011 by skydiveaddict
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 No religious man would feel threatened by free will if these people would stop disrespecting the beliefs of the religious people. Using free will as an excuse you see people openly bashing up Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohammed. I think the majority of the people doesn't even know what free will actually means. Well for example, in my case, I consider myself to be open minded to all possibilities of what happens after this life whether that be religion, reincarnation, nothingness, ghosts, UFO's - whatever. I don't think we know until we die. In that sense, I am suspicious of anyone that can say, or believe with 100% certainty, that there is a God or that there is nothing. I choose to sit on the fence because I know that when I will die, I will know. But I enjoy spiritualism and respect religions and beliefs so long as those people are respectful in turn. Yes some people disrespect religion, but religious people also respect atheists...and other religions.
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 You have some appalling misconceptions about Christ and the Bible. And you express these misconceptions with sweeping, ignorant generalizations. Well as you don't care to point these out, I don't know what you expect me to say on the matter.
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 I think most extremist religious people believe they are doing the will of God by taking free will away. I agree that it does go against God-given free will if people take the free will away! Good question and very thought-provoking! Understood, and thanks for the rational and objective way you wrote this. Understood. No I do not think God wants people to live in fear or panic or dread either. It depends on the rules/regulations and their objective. For example, if the rules/regulations are just to control people, that isn't good. However, if the rules/regulations are for the health and safety of people, that is good. I believe that God gave people commands for the well-being of people. Agreed It really depends on what a person considers to be fun. People have different ideas about what is fun, so I don't get really what you mean here. About freedoms, I believe people have "evolved" in understanding freedoms, as well as understanding other things. That is why I believe nowadays, many people of all different beliefs advocate freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of assembly, and other freedoms that do not hurt anybody. Back to fun and freedom, there are some people who are sadistic (how they become that way I have no idea) who think it's fun to hurt others. So definitely I appreciate when a government clamps down on other peoples' "fun" that would hurt others! Religion though is different. Religion doesn't look at "what I want to do for fun." Rather, religion looks through the lenses of the goals and objective of life. Most religions do not look at life as just a time to be free to have fun. I disagree. C.S. Lewis and Tolkien, both Christians (though Lewis = Protestant and Tolkien = Catholic) were very much creative and are known for their fiction that have now been made into movies! Did written religion remove their creativity, freedom, individuality, and curiosity? Nope. Religion can be a tool when the people who believe do not study for themselves, but rather depend on leaders who could definitely yes use religion this way. That's why it's so important to study and research, instead of just believing what other people say. Jesus is the one who said turn the other cheek, but his teachings really need to be understood in context. Below is the context: Matthew 5 (NIV) " 38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[Exodus 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Leviticus 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Jesus is teaching the principle of not reacting in kind to those who don't like you. He is teaching that God is Judge and God is pleased with those who are kind to those who are not kind to them (see verses 44-47). This doesn't mean being a doormat or being sweet to mean people. It does mean though to not just thoughtlessly hit back someone who hit you and get into a fight and get into a cycle of revenge where you end up hurting others and being just as mean to others as they are being mean to you. That doesn't solve anything. One of my favorite quotes of Gandhi is the following: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." He shared many similar ideas with Jesus and basically his quote reflects in a way the teaching of Jesus to turn the other cheek, which is more profound and harder than the eye for eye mentality, but which has in mind the good of everyone involved, and the desire to not inflict pain and suffering on another person. This ties in to another of Jesus' teachings: to do unto others as you would have them do to you. If you don't want someone to hit you, don't hit them. If someone hits you, you don't have to lower yourself to their behavior. You can take the higher ground. Great response. Thank you for your contribution. As I don't know how to highlight specific quotations, I will try to just respond in a block. I can understand your point about fun/freedom. What some see as fun is most definitely NOT behaviour that should be allowed. As you say sadists, or someone who attaches a dog to a firecracker for example and finds that 'fun' is exhibiting a behaviour that should not be tolerated or accepted as being frivolous. If I could provide an example of a freedom or pleasurable past time that many engage in and has been a very controversial topic, I would mention alcohol. My parents raised me in a household of alcohol but they were only ever casual drinkers, never drunks...nor alcoholics. They barely ever drink. They let me have my first taste of alcohol at a young age and told me what it was, and what it did. I never felt afraid of alcohol, nor threatened or controlled by them to see it as an evil thing. As I grew up and got drunk a few times, I realised some people abused alcohol and acted like idiots. I also learnt how my own body/mind reacted to alcohol and what I did and didn't like about that. I liked that I felt less inhibited. I disliked that I might be sick or behave like an idiot. I barely ever drink now. I just have no interest in it. But my parents allowed me to make that choice...they never presented alcohol as a sin, or an evil. I may be mistaken, but I think for example many Muslims see alcohol, dance and listening to music as negative behaviours. Please correct me anyone, if that's not true. I could also mention sex...a huge and controversial deal generally to everyone. I have slept with 2 people in my life, and no I wasn't married to either. But the sex was out of a care for those two people and both instances were safe. But religion obviously has a harder line with regard to sex, which for the most part I understand, because sex unprotected runs the risk of unwanted pregnancies or STD's. At the same time, what is so wrong with people enjoying sex that is fun and free? So long as they don't take it to the extreme. Or is it more that people fear that partaking in something a little runs the risk of enjoying it a lot and becoming an addict to that thing...or a 'sinner'. I would also like to reiterate that not all religious people, or even the majority, behave in this way. But I do know of people who love to infringe of peoples freedoms, and of those that I do not know, extremists and fanatics, they appear to enjoy this also. You share an interesting point by saying that they see the removal of freedom as a way of doing God's will, but as I said, God gave free will, and so no man is entitled to take this away. By this I mean the basic freedoms...not freedom to hurt, freedom to kill etc. As I said, freedom with consequences. Also I love the Narnia books You are very right there. I mean more individuals who feel that dance or a drink of alcohol are terrible behaviours, when one drink and the wonders of dancing, are two freeing and fun activities.
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 Since I don't share that feeling of threat I can only speculate. If you think about it...it's all through history...it's documented in the Bible. Free will is a lack of complete control on the part of the "leader" (for lack of a better word). I.E. When God gave free will he gave man the ability to turn away from him. Therefore mans choice to love him and obey him was just that - a choice. If you read in the Bible much of what Jesus taught flew in the face of what the religious leaders of his time (and ours for that matter) were teaching. He even pointed out that one of their goals was control - which is an incorrect way for them to be thinking. They want attention, power, money....they want subservience, not brothers and sisters in faith who will stand by them in serving. They desire a higher position, above others, recognized as being better. And therefore paint God out to be some manipulative and demanding tyrant. Jesus never asked for any of that - he turned his face away from such adulation. He humbled himself to the position of a servant for his time and took to washing the feet of those who were following him - who saw themselves as lesser. In doing this he illustrated that no one is lesser...that we may not all have "equal" abilities, but when it comes to God we all owe him the same respect. After all...we all have a creator...he's the only one who can say he doesn't. In that respect, even Jesus is by our side (figuratively of course at this point, not physically...) as a fellow Willing servant to God. And those who choose not to serve...well that's their choice. Religion should never be about leading or controlling through fear...that was never Gods way of things, Jesus didn't use fear to control people...at least not the unhealthy kind. He did always lay out the consequences...but that, too, is different. The fear we're supposed to feel isn't that of being smacked around by some wooden dowell or anything like that, but instead the fear of disappointing someone we love...the same fear you or I had as children when we did something wrong and we knew we'd see that look in our parents eyes....or if you had a bad relationship with your parents how about another loved one....someone who you care about their opinion. You didn't refrain from doing things to hurt them out of "fear" of them, but out of fear of hurting them...I hope I was able to explain that....I trip over my words much of the time. But think of it like this - when you fall in love with someone...obviously you want them to love you back....or if you have kids - you want them to love you in return....but do you want them to love you because they have to or because they want to? Beautiful post.
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 You're confusing free will with Christian obedience. Just because God gave you free will doesn't mean you can act outside of the natural law and do whatever you feel like doing without the consequence of grave sin. You are certainly free to do that (free will), God gave you that. But it can come at a horrible price to your soul. Here is a quick example from St. Paul: Unbelief and Its Consequences 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish hearts were darkened... Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, ... For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Thanks for your contribution. Focusing on the 'men with men' quotation. I have never found men with men to be unnatural, not disgusting, not threatening. It occurs in the animal kingdom, therefore I can't see it as 'unnatural' or a human perversion of sex. If two men or two women feel love for one another, then I cannot see that as a sin. I simply can't. I think there is something distasteful and oftentimes sleazy about sex without love or care...its not for me. But for same sex people to fall in love doesn't upset me and I also don't think it would upset God. But I know many would disagree there. I think God would just like to know that people loved one another. I don't think he would mind about the whys and wherefores. I think personally, that it was more the followers of religions who disliked same sex relations because they feared that because they couldn't have children, their religion would not pass on. I can't really see otherwise why someone would be offended or upset that someone was gay, unless that person forced themselves on them in some way. A gay couple I know personally are very discreet and normal and just live their life's very unobtrusively. In fact, many people think they are brothers because these two men do not like to correct people and discuss that they are gay. They just want to be left alone to...well...be gay I guess
Author Nikki Sahagin Posted April 22, 2011 Author Posted April 22, 2011 The question shouldn't be why do religious people want to take freedom away, it should be why does anyone want to take anyone else's freedom away. I've seen many atheists, theists, and agnostics alike be power hungry. Well I think that religious people and atheists come from a different place with regard to this topic. An atheist, theist or agnostic is taking away freedom because THEY want to, either because they are coming from a political standpoint (Hitler) or something personal. Religious people often feel they are acting on behalf of God, or their religion, so I feel the motivation is different, and it is that motivation that I was interested in debating. I think anyone can understand why someone who doesn't believe in God would want to take away someones freedom. That person is selfish and sees no punishment in the pipeline for their acts. A religious person, who knows that God gave free will, has a more complex motivation I think.
Disillusioned Posted April 24, 2011 Posted April 24, 2011 Free will is a slap in the face to anyone who's a control freak. Simple as that. Religious domination and money are 2 red herrings that control freaks find particularly useful as disguises for throwing their weight around. Unfortunately, being a control freak isn't considered a type of mental illness, despite the fact that a lot of mentally ill people can't function unless they run things... otherwise, I'm sure the psych community would have a name for it.
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