spice4life Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 The ramifications of infidelity and recent revelations got me thinking about the damage that occurs and subsequent dynamics. What if the WS realizes that their fear in telling their SO was out of fear they would hurt them and they would leave? And they now see the importance of full disclosure and that they have no right to withhold information due to their own fears. With that said, what would you say to a WS if they came to you and said, "I'm so sorry and I see now why you don't fully trust me. I see the motivations behind my behaviors and own them. I don't blame you for the way I handled things and honestly, I did blame you for a long time. I was projecting my own self blame onto you because of how screwed up I was when we first met. It wasn't your fault and you didn't deserve any of it. I'm truly truly sorry. I see now why you never fully trusted me and it forced you to keep me at arms length emotionally. I don't blame you and I would have done the same given the situation. If you feel that no matter what I say, you will always stay closed off from me emotionally please let me know. I want to work on breaking down these barriers *I* created in this relationship, but if you don't want to then I need to go. I don't feel it's fair to either one of us to stay in a relationship that can't move beyond the damage (I created ) and be rebuilt. I want to, I really do because I love you and those feelings have never changed. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I just need to know you are willing to give me that chance. If you can't then I will go." What would you say or think if the WS said that to you? Please excuse typos - I'm posting from my phone. Thank you for reading. I will be checking back later...have to get ready for work.
WorldIsYours Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 The ramifications of infidelity and recent revelations got me thinking about the damage that occurs and subsequent dynamics. What if the WS realizes that their fear in telling their SO was out of fear they would hurt them and they would leave? Their fear in telling is to cover their arse. And they now see the importance of full disclosure and that they have no right to withhold information due to their own fears. They knew the importance of full disclosure from the start. With that said, what would you say to a WS if they came to you and said, "I'm so sorry and I see now why you don't fully trust me. I see the motivations behind my behaviors and own them. I don't blame you for the way I handled things and honestly, I did blame you for a long time. I was projecting my own self blame onto you because of how screwed up I was when we first met. It wasn't your fault and you didn't deserve any of it. I'm truly truly sorry. I see now why you never fully trusted me and it forced you to keep me at arms length emotionally. I don't blame you and I would have done the same given the situation. If you feel that no matter what I say, you will always stay closed off from me emotionally please let me know. I want to work on breaking down these barriers *I* created in this relationship, but if you don't want to then I need to go. I don't feel it's fair to either one of us to stay in a relationship that can't move beyond the damage (I created ) and be rebuilt. I want to, I really do because I love you and those feelings have never changed. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I just need to know you are willing to give me that chance. If you can't then I will go." My ex-wife said something like this and I got pissed. How dare she tell me if I don't accept her affair that she can leave. Saying she loves me then throwing ultimatums in my face for something she did. She got a piece of my wrath and I kicked her out.
Spark1111 Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 The ramifications of infidelity and recent revelations got me thinking about the damage that occurs and subsequent dynamics. What if the WS realizes that their fear in telling their SO was out of fear they would hurt them and they would leave? And they now see the importance of full disclosure and that they have no right to withhold information due to their own fears. With that said, what would you say to a WS if they came to you and said, "I'm so sorry and I see now why you don't fully trust me. I see the motivations behind my behaviors and own them. I don't blame you for the way I handled things and honestly, I did blame you for a long time. I was projecting my own self blame onto you because of how screwed up I was when we first met. It wasn't your fault and you didn't deserve any of it. I'm truly truly sorry. I see now why you never fully trusted me and it forced you to keep me at arms length emotionally. I don't blame you and I would have done the same given the situation. If you feel that no matter what I say, you will always stay closed off from me emotionally please let me know. I want to work on breaking down these barriers *I* created in this relationship, but if you don't want to then I need to go. I don't feel it's fair to either one of us to stay in a relationship that can't move beyond the damage (I created ) and be rebuilt. I want to, I really do because I love you and those feelings have never changed. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I just need to know you are willing to give me that chance. If you can't then I will go." What would you say or think if the WS said that to you? Please excuse typos - I'm posting from my phone. Thank you for reading. I will be checking back later...have to get ready for work. I would be singing the Hallelujah Chorus while pirouetting in pink ballet slippers! But here is the caveat: how patient is the WS? How long are they willing to show, through their actions and empathy to the pain they caused the BS. before the BS can even know if they have the capacity to forgive? If these words are said to a BS, too soon after DDAY, with additional omissions and trickle-truthing going on, most BS would show them the door. It sounds like an ultimatum, a beautifully worded one, but still an ultimatum. Most marriages end in a poorly handled aftermath of an affair, than from the affair itself, IMO. WSs still detox from an AP, do not tell the whole story out of shame, and generally make a complete botch of it. Let me clarify: It is a beautiful apology. If it is followed by totally transparent actions and communication about the affair, it could work, depending on the patience exhibited for the healing process of the BS.
What_Next Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 This (as spark1111 mentioned) is a form of an ultimatum. That is simply unacceptable. If my wife had of attempted to dictate in any way shape or form the terms of our reconciliation we would now be well on the road to divorce. There is an apology there, and that is a crucial part of any reconciliation, as much be remorse, NC with AP etc, but an ultimatum is counter productive and will not work. Transparency, openness, laying it all out there. That's a foundation to work from.
UnsureinSeattle Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 Yeah- I would've liked to hear something like that (it gets the cards out on the table) instead of the half-assed "I'm sorry I hurt you- I didn't mean to- I can't help how I feel" apology I got, followed with a "Not seeing the OM is tearing me apart" chaser. Ooh! Bitter today!
fltc Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 She wouldn't have said anything, if my ex had an affair (she didn't, that's not why I ended our marriage) she'd have been gone within minutes of me finding out.
Spark1111 Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 Yeah- I would've liked to hear something like that (it gets the cards out on the table) instead of the half-assed "I'm sorry I hurt you- I didn't mean to- I can't help how I feel" apology I got, followed with a "Not seeing the OM is tearing me apart" chaser. Ooh! Bitter today! I think this is the typical post DDAY apology. And it sounds to a BS like "I'm sorry I got caught." It also sounds like they do not yet understand the depth of their destructive actions. And sometimes, they are still projecting some of the blame on the BS too. It takes a while for them to even want to understand the why of thier actions. Meanwhile, they are dealing with a crazy angry spouse. as they are defogging from the good feelings high their AP provided. It would be a very rare WS who had the ability to even possess the depth of understanding to issue an apology like the one mentioned in the original post. It would be miraculous. But if the last line of it was issued to soon, it may not work.
Author spice4life Posted March 15, 2011 Author Posted March 15, 2011 (edited) Thanks! I completely agree that this can be viewed as an ultimatum. What about if this apology is 3 years out and WS is seeing for the first time the real carnage the slip up created? And after spending many years in therapy working to address their issues, are now truly owning their mistake? Let's say they have been transparent and worked hard to clean out their emotional closets...what then? Has a WS ever gotten to the point where they "see" all of the damage their mistake caused and felt like there was no hope? Like seeing the reality of the pain they caused was too much to bear? Is it possible to evolve past that feeling? Sorry for the 20 questions, I'm just trying to figure out this side of the equation. Thanks for taking the time to provide your insights. Much appreciated! I'm also sorry if this bursts anyone's balloon being this scenario is 3 years out. I see how these situations can take a long time to heal. Edited March 15, 2011 by spice4life
WorldIsYours Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks! I completely agree that this can be viewed as an ultimatum. What about if this apology is 3 years out and WS is seeing for the first time the real carnage the slip up created? And after spending many years in therapy working to address their issues, are now truly owning their mistake? Well for me I will never stay with a cheater, and no way would I be with a cheater who gave me an ultimatum 3 years out if I was in that position, hypothetically. Let's say they have been transparent and worked hard to clean out their emotional closets...what then? Has a WS ever gotten to the point where they "see" all of the damage their mistake caused and felt like there was no hope? Like seeing the reality of the pain they caused was too much to bear? Is it possible to evolve past that feeling? Well it never was a mistake in the first place. Sorry for the 20 questions, I'm just trying to figure out this side of the equation. Thanks for taking the time to provide your insights. Much appreciated! I'm also sorry if this bursts anyone's balloon being this scenario is 3 years out. I see how these situations can take a long time to heal. Happy to be of service.
Spark1111 Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks! I completely agree that this can be viewed as an ultimatum. What about if this apology is 3 years out and WS is seeing for the first time the real carnage the slip up created? And after spending many years in therapy working to address their issues, are now truly owning their mistake? Let's say they have been transparent and worked hard to clean out their emotional closets...what then? Has a WS ever gotten to the point where they "see" all of the damage their mistake caused and felt like there was no hope? Like seeing the reality of the pain they caused was too much to bear? Is it possible to evolve past that feeling? Sorry for the 20 questions, I'm just trying to figure out this side of the equation. Thanks for taking the time to provide your insights. Much appreciated! I'm also sorry if this bursts anyone's balloon being this scenario is 3 years out. I see how these situations can take a long time to heal. Yes, I believe in the power of people to grow and to heal and they should still give that apology to their BS whether they are still together or divorced at the three year mark. In the end I believe it is all about respect and forgiveness. And there is no time limit of offering that to someone who you hurt deeply. It is called making ammends and should be done, no matter what the outcome of the relationship, or even if the fBS screams an epithet and slams the phone down on them. Our goal in life is to always strive to be the better person, even three years later, even if the marriage is caput. I get the fear and shame aspect, I truly do. But as I told my spouse reconciliation is a three-step process for a BS: First, we need to forgive the affair. Some BSs know immediatelu they cannot and divorce. Secondly, we need to forgive the lies and deception to our trusting faces, and this is much, much harder: this is the ultimate betrayal, that you took advantage of our loving trust and deceived us every day for months, sometimes years! Thirdly, if the WS has worked hard to end the affair, been transparent in their actions, but cannot tell the truth of it all to us, we will not gain our RESPECT back for them. To me, this is the last and hardest hurdle to overcome: Respect. If their shame is greater to overcome then the pain they have caused us, well that is when we see, sometimes for the first time, (as love is blind) how weak, or damaged they truly are. And when you come face to face with that kind of brokenness, yeah, you may never regain respect for that person you once thought the sun rose and set on their shoulders. Respect is the last and final frontier in reconciliation, IMHO.
Author spice4life Posted March 16, 2011 Author Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks spark111! Appreciate the insight. But, oh contrere (sp?)...the person in this story is not weak. Not at all...weakness is not in her nature. So maybe, these are fleeting thoughts during the rebuilding process? My thought is that it's more of a switch in energy and mental attitude. Doesn't there come a point in time where the dynamics of it all...the emotional distance, the feeling of lonliness and being trapped in an emotional stranglehold have to change? I know the timelines are different in each case, but if the relationship is on the road to recovery, is there point where the light gets switched on and the fBS starts to take steps toward the fWS? Thanks again! The input is really helping me understand.
Spark1111 Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks spark111! Appreciate the insight. But, oh contrere (sp?)...the person in this story is not weak. Not at all...weakness is not in her nature. So maybe, these are fleeting thoughts during the rebuilding process? My thought is that it's more of a switch in energy and mental attitude. Doesn't there come a point in time where the dynamics of it all...the emotional distance, the feeling of lonliness and being trapped in an emotional stranglehold have to change? I know the timelines are different in each case, but if the relationship is on the road to recovery, is there point where the light gets switched on and the fBS starts to take steps toward the fWS? Thanks again! The input is really helping me understand. Absolutely, as long as too much damage has not already happened in the recovery. Many fWS fail to understand that they have a very brief window of opportunity, with many conditions to meet, to successfully reconcile. It is normally a 2.5 year to 5 year process, with everything handled well by both spouses. Every trickle-truth, lie of omission, evasion of a direct question by the fWS sets the recovery timeline back to zero. If three years into it, the above apology is given, and the fWS is now ready to answer all questions truthfully, then NOW is when true recovery is possible. If the fBS can even do it at this point. They may not be able to.
Author spice4life Posted March 18, 2011 Author Posted March 18, 2011 As a BS, did you ever question your WS's sincerity about wanting to stay because it you they wanted? did you have a hard time believing, "I'm here because I want you and always have." One more question, did the WS wake up one day and feel completely disgusted with themselves and develop an aversion for risky behavior? Thanks!
kaysun Posted March 18, 2011 Posted March 18, 2011 As a BS, did you ever question your WS's sincerity about wanting to stay because it you they wanted? did you have a hard time believing, "I'm here because I want you and always have." One more question, did the WS wake up one day and feel completely disgusted with themselves and develop an aversion for risky behavior? Thanks! I believe this to be directed to Spark but I'll pipe in. I questioned the sincerity everyday. It didn't matter what she said (I knew then how much she could lie), it only mattered what she did. The words didn't match the actions. At all. I hung onto the words until I was smacked in the face too many times by her actions. Make sense? She hasn't "woken up" yet.
TerryW Posted March 19, 2011 Posted March 19, 2011 Yes, I doubt his "I want to be here". If you wanted to be here then you wouldn't have risked it all for nothing. I can't help but feel like he wants to stay here until the kids get out of school or so he doesn't lose half of what he's worked for. My mind tell me plenty of reasons he wants to stay but rarely does it say "because he realized his mistake". That to me is living in denial and leaves my back open to being stabbed again. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about this fear I have of being fooled again by his lies. It comes down to I just don't trust him.
Author spice4life Posted March 19, 2011 Author Posted March 19, 2011 Yes, I doubt his "I want to be here". If you wanted to be here then you wouldn't have risked it all for nothing. I can't help but feel like he wants to stay here until the kids get out of school or so he doesn't lose half of what he's worked for. My mind tell me plenty of reasons he wants to stay but rarely does it say "because he realized his mistake". That to me is living in denial and leaves my back open to being stabbed again. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about this fear I have of being fooled again by his lies. It comes down to I just don't trust him. Sorry you are going through that with him. I can certainly understand why you would feel that way. Have you thought about getting a divorce so you can be free to find someone who values you for who you are instead of being with someone who isn't. I could never live like that because the relationships in my life are too important to me. If the person I'm with doesn't feel the same and isn't making a honest effort to prove they want to be with me, then I would just let them go and move on.
TerryW Posted March 19, 2011 Posted March 19, 2011 That's the rub..He is treating me well and he is trying to make amends. These feeling are the residual fears from what he's done. I won't throw away twenty years because of fear. These are feeling that come and go.
Spark1111 Posted March 19, 2011 Posted March 19, 2011 As a BS, did you ever question your WS's sincerity about wanting to stay because it you they wanted? did you have a hard time believing, "I'm here because I want you and always have." One more question, did the WS wake up one day and feel completely disgusted with themselves and develop an aversion for risky behavior? Thanks! Sorry I missed this! Oh, yes, I definitely questioned the sincerity of anything he said or did for many months following DDAY. I had no idea what affair de-fogging was all about until I started to educate myself to it. And to distance myself from it so I could heal. Initially, I believe for him, it was a knee-jerk reaction to maintain the status quo! Funny how that is always projected onto the BS, but it was definitely the WS who wanted it in our case. Second words out of his mouth: Please don't tell anyone. I told the world. He had talked himself, and his OW out of my having any love for him, when nothing could be farther from the truth! And I believe he thought if he could calm me down, as if we were loveless roommates, he could continue the affair...A truly confused cake-eater at the time! That is why exposure is so important to burst the affair bubble, IMHO. He had to convince me, by both words and actions, that he truly loved me, the woman, not Spark, the long term wife. I had a bag packed and a foot out the door for a very long time. My kids are grown, they were supportive of ANY decision I would make, and I earn my own dime. When he started to almost stalk me, and become insanely jealous of who I was with and or talking to, I figured the tide was turning. And I never insisted on NC. He did. And when that happened, I could feel the re-focusing of his romantic feelings. And yes, he became almost suicidal in his self-loathing and today lives with self-imposed boundaries in all his actions.
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