What's the best way to avoid getting friendzoned?

[Ruby Slippers]

And another thing... (ha)

 

Since I never know if I'm in or out, I play it safe and end up in the friendzone.

This is just a mentality.

 

If you really like a girl, assume you are an awesome guy for her until she says otherwise. In fact, even if she says otherwise, know that you are an awesome guy she's just going to be missing out on, and proceed.

[somedude81]

Thanks for the tips carhill and Ruby.

 

I'll go through with it assuming she still wants to.

 

A compliment on her but not superficial hmm.

 

If you really like a girl, assume you are an awesome guy for her until she says otherwise. In fact, even if she says otherwise, know that you are an awesome guy she's just going to be missing out on, and proceed.

I really wish I could believe that. But my self-esteem issues are too great.

 

But that isn't the point of this thread so I won't dwell on that.

[betterdeal]

So it starts with physical contact and becomes more intense? Wow, that's some food for thought. I guess the only time I can ever truly know is when she tells me "no."

 

When you go dancing, are you spending all your energy trying to follow the rules or are you enjoying the sensation of it all? It's all about the senses, not the techniques. Just enjoy your senses, lead don't push, dance.

 

I used to be like you - over analysing the whole thing. Turned out I had phimosis (tight foreskin) and frenulum breve (broken banjo string on the back of the glans) and this was instrumental in me trying to control everything. I choose to be circumcised last year and it has made a massive difference. If you have any issues with your penis, see a doctor.

 

Things you can be sure of:

 

1. You will make mistakes

2. You will cum very quickly first time

3. You will enjoy losing control

 

It's up to you if you want to laugh, cry or write a thesis on any aspect of this.

 

She likes you. You like her. Anything can happen. Don't do things that make you unhappy. Do things that make you happy.

 

Live, love, learn.

[Jack & Coke]

Simple. Act like a man that is interested in her and not somebody that wants to be her friend. Don't be afraid to put your bid in and show some interest in her. It's either you want to be her guy or be sexual with her, or you want to be her friend. You don't have to shove your tongue down her throat, but go into it with a one or the other attitude.

 

I've written about friend zone type stuff on my blog recently and it's something that every guy has been with and a lot struggle with. The key thing to remember is this: The friend zone is nothing more than a guy who wants more but is afraid to make a move.

 

Keep us posted

[somedude81]

When you go dancing, are you spending all your energy trying to follow the rules or are you enjoying the sensation of it all? It's all about the senses, not the techniques. Just enjoy your senses, lead don't push, dance.

It usually is a mix of trying to get the moves right and having fun. It fluxuates depending on my mood and who my partner is.

 

I used to be like you - over analysing the whole thing.

I over analyze everything because I've had no success at all with women. I'm so tired of getting nowhere.

 

If there was a full-proof step-by-step program to fallow I'd do it. But when I'm on my own, I'm so scared to screw up, because I know where it would leave me.

 

If you have any issues with your penis, see a doctor.

I was circumsized as an infant and I got no trouble with little dude.

Things you can be sure of:

 

1. You will make mistakes

That is my biggest fear.

 

Since I never get anywhere with girls, it seems like I'm not allowed to make any mistakes at all or she's history.

 

That is why I'm panicking.

 

 

2. You will cum very quickly first time

LOL probably true. But I'll be ready for round two in a minute.

 

 

She likes you. You like her. Anything can happen. Don't do things that make you unhappy. Do things that make you happy.

 

Live, love, learn.

As carhill said, I don't know if she likes me or what she thinks at all. Heck I don't even know if I like her. She's fun and cute enough and I'm just desperate for a girl. Plus I'm still stuck on the girl I was in love with last year, who did end up friendzoning me.

 

Ugh, I shouldn't have thought about her

[betterdeal]

She likes you sufficiently enough to go for lunch. You will make mistakes. They are just mistakes. I don't not go to work in case I trip up on the way. Make light of it. Like you would any other cock-up.

 

You'll get there.

[betterdeal]

Ugh, I shouldn't have thought about her

 

Treat yourself - have a wank!

[Ruby Slippers]

But when I'm on my own, I'm so scared to screw up, because I know where it would leave me.

 

That is my biggest fear.

 

Since I never get anywhere with girls, it seems like I'm not allowed to make any mistakes at all or she's history.

 

That is why I'm panicking.

Every guy I've had a relationship with made some mistakes. I did, too! But that was OK because we also did a lot of things right. You are the one amplifying mistakes in your mind so they drown out anything good you do. You are never going to be perfect, so expecting perfection from yourself is a good way to stay where you are.

 

As for your self-esteem issues, they are most likely a major contributor to your woman troubles.

 

It's funny, but if I leave the house feeling blah about life or myself, all I seem to attract is a bunch of blah. But when I leave feeling confident and happy, the city just seems full of cool, interesting men who are smiling at me.

[Jack & Coke]

Treat yourself - have a wank!

 

Haha, not a bad idea.

[nyc_guy2003]

So how did it go? Apologies if you already answered on another thread.

 

Here are some more hints about how and how not to interact on a date, based on my own experiences and observations of two types of single friends, those who a) hook up with a lot of girls or b) strike out all the time:

 

-Do ask personal questions. I'm not saying ask what her favorite sexual position is, but stuff like "what was the most exciting thing you did this year" or "what motivates you to get out of bed every day?" These are fun questions to answer and also leads you down the path of getting to know more intimate details of her life, and of course she's going to ask the same questions back to you and that is your chance to show how exciting of a person you are.

 

-Do not let the conversation turn generic. For example, don't talk about the weather or what's going on in the news or what the stock market is doing. Those topics do not get her interested in you as a person.

 

-Do invade her personal space a little. I don't mean putting your legs on top of hers or whatnot, but let your knees touch, have your face close enough to her so that you can feel her breath and vice versa, etc. Definitely if she leans in to you to show you something on the menu or to show you a picture on her iPhone, do not back away.

 

-Do not let conversations turn to other guys. For example if she tells you Brad Pitt is hot or that she thinks your dance teacher has a nice @ss, flash her a generic smile and a half-chuckle and say "is that right?" and then move on to another topic.

 

-Do smile and laugh a lot and maintain eye contact. But don't act delerious or stalkerish.

 

-Don't act timid or worse, fawn over her. As much as people like to be complimented, it gets tiring/creepy after a while to be told how pretty your eyes look, etc.

 

-Do set up plans for a second date before the first one is over. But do it in a smooth way, not like "so do you like me enough to go out with me again?" That is timid. Ideally you should set her up during the date by telling her about some cool hangout place that you know and subtely suggesting that it would be a fun time if you took her there.

[MissJoness]

If a girl friendzones you it means that she is not interested in you. There's nothing you can do to prevent or avoid this--either she's feeling you or not. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. I see a lot of threads with guys asking how to not be friendzoned, and that's like asking how to make somebody like you...and you can't. When you click with the right woman, she will be open to being in a LTR...

[somedude81]

So how did it go? Apologies if you already answered on another thread.

Wow from beyond the grave.

 

She basically ignored me the entire time we were in class. When class was over and we were going to go eat, she suddenly was too busy. She then stopped coming to class.

 

I didn't see her again until this past Wednesday. Turns out she got food poisoning and missed a bunch of school.

 

I'm not going to say that she deserved it but...

 

Thank you for the rest of the tips. They sound very handy.

If a girl friendzones you it means that she is not interested in you. There's nothing you can do to prevent or avoid this--either she's feeling you or not. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. I see a lot of threads with guys asking how to not be friendzoned, and that's like asking how to make somebody like you...and you can't. When you click with the right woman, she will be open to being in a LTR...

Eh, I don't buy into that.

 

I'm sure you know that there are things a guy your interested in can do or say that kills all the interest you had in him.

 

So while it may not be possible to make somebody like you, it's very possible to make them stop liking you.

[MissJoness]

Eh, I don't buy into that.

 

I'm sure you know that there are things a guy your interested in can do or say that kills all the interest you had in him.

 

So while it may not be possible to make somebody like you, it's very possible to make them stop liking you.

 

Right. Again, that means the two of you are incompatible. When two people's personalities mesh well together, and they have similar interests and hobbies, there's very little that can be said to make that person not like you unless you're saying something extreme very bizarre...and out there. And if you're not, it just means the chick didn't like you and your personality and there was nothing you could have said or done to prevent it...its just apart of who you are. I just hate how some men think that they can use a strategy to make a woman like them...it doesn't work that way.

Edited April 30, 2011 by MissJoness

[somedude81]

Right. Again, that means the two of you are incompatible. When two people's personalities mesh well together, and they have similar interests and hobbies, there's very little that can be said to make that person not like you unless you're saying something extreme very bizarre...and out there.

No, it's not that extreme.

 

I've heard stories where not kissing a girl on the first date was enough to make her stop liking the guy.

 

Getting a girl to stop liking you is not hard at all.

 

What happens to most guys, is that they inadvertently do something to kill the attraction and once it's gone, they don't get another shot.

 

Getting friendzoned is very easy. What is much harder is knowing what to do to avoid going down that road by mistake. That's why I made this thread.

[phineas]

If a girl friendzones you it means that she is not interested in you. There's nothing you can do to prevent or avoid this--either she's feeling you or not. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this. I see a lot of threads with guys asking how to not be friendzoned, and that's like asking how to make somebody like you...and you can't. When you click with the right woman, she will be open to being in a LTR...

 

If you don't make the move & she wants you to....friendzone.

 

Make the move anyway, then you won't be stuck in limbo for weeks wondering if she likes you.

[sanskrit]

How do you touch a girl in a sexual way without going too far?

 

You don't, you create opportunities for her to touch you, which means creating opportunities for casual physical closeness. Sit next to her at the bar at dinner, lunch or drinks, not across a table. Do active moving things on early dates, not sitting watching a movie or TV. If she is interested in you sexually, she -will- move closer to you and touch you, and then you escalate from there.

 

Never feel guilty about showing a woman polite sexual interest. Once you and she are breaking the touch barrier, proposition her directly and respectfully. I have never lost any ground from a woman by asking her in a matter of fact, respectful way if she would like to spend the night (with women today though, I hardly ever have to ask, if they are interested, they are ready near instantly). It leaves no uncertainty whatsoever about your intentions. If she gives you baggage or noise about this, it's a test of your composure and to see if you will break down and act guilty or apologize and supplicate to her. Never apologize unless you have been truly rude and it's objectively certain that you have. Asking for what you want is never a sin, but doing it casually takes some power away from the female in that you aren't grovelling up to her like the rest and this disconcerts many of them to the point of some faux righteous indignation.

 

The lukewarm ones who come up with all kinds of bogus excuses and play games? Be like Jesus and spew them from your mouth If you ever do get those types to come around, they will be miserable relationship partners, always causing drama, and every step of the relationship will be a power struggle of passive-aggressive proportions. Seek out the ones (about 20% of them IME) who are capable of making a simple decision without selfishly allowing their mountains of baggage to interfere with their otherwise completely capable thought process. To the rest, "See you around." EDIT Want to clarify that am not including legitimate reasons like "I'm not comfortable yet," or "I don't feel I know you well enough yet." in the lame excuse category. Lame excuses are "I am not over my ex (and they broke up a year ago)," or "I think you are a player" "You haven't earned that yet," etc.

 

The attitude to have during this is casual and light, not "a big deal is being decided here." That kind of attitude is communicated subconsciously and is contagious, and most of the reasons for friendzoning involve the guy creating an awkward, heavy, uncomfortable pressure-laden environment. OTOH, a light, flirty fun attitude is also contagious, and goes a long way towards creating what women mistakenly call "chemistry" but is actually just feeling at ease with someone one finds attractive enough to get physical with.

 

Women enjoy being led in dancing and in courtship. If you have a casual, light and fun "no big deal" attitude about things, they will also.

 

One other thing, sometimes as part of their game playing, they will make as if it's a big deal to you even though you haven't expressed that and certainly don't feel it, and try to put words in your mouth or ideas in your head upon rejecting your light advances, "are you mad now??" "have I hurt you??" Never respond to this with anything other than "It's OK" laughing a bit as if you see right through their ruse, but then immediately terminate politely and smilingly with "I've got to get going now. See you around." Whatever you do, don't engage them on this immature, manipulative level as if there is any real discussion to be had. Stay relatively silent and odds are they will be banging your phone the minute you leave and banging you soon after.

Edited May 1, 2011 by sanskrit

[sagetalk]

 

If you don't make the move & she wants you to....friendzone.

 

100% true. 100% sad, but 100% true.

[somedude81]

You don't, you create opportunities for her to touch you, which means creating opportunities for casual physical closeness. Sit next to her at the bar at dinner, lunch or drinks, not across a table. Do active moving things on early dates, not sitting watching a movie or TV. If she is interested in you sexually, she -will- move closer to you and touch you, and then you escalate from there.

So you are suggesting to wait for her to make the first move?

 

I'm not really too sure on that.

 

Never feel guilty about showing a woman polite sexual interest. Once you and she are breaking the touch barrier, proposition her directly and respectfully. I have never lost any ground from a woman by asking her in a matter of fact, respectful way if she would like to spend the night

Ask her if she wants to spend the night before you even kiss her?

 

I don't even want sex on the first date.

 

Though, I will try to make myself not feel guilty for wanting to express my desires with a woman.

 

 

Never apologize unless you have been truly rude and it's objectively certain that you have. Asking for what you want is never a sin, but doing it casually takes some power away from the female in that you aren't grovelling up to her like the rest and this disconcerts many of them to the point of some faux righteous indignation.

I can understand this. One doesn't want to make himself seem weak infront of a woman.

 

The lukewarm ones who come up with all kinds of bogus excuses and play games? Be like Jesus and spew them from your mouth If you ever do get those types to come around, they will be miserable relationship partners, always causing drama, and every step of the relationship will be a power struggle of passive-aggressive proportions.

Yeah, I've dealt with the lukewarm ones. Heck the girl I want the most right now is the epitome of being lukewarm. But I know it's impossible to get her to like me. So I might as well give up

 

Seek out the ones (about 20% of them IME) who are capable of making a simple decision without selfishly allowing their mountains of baggage to interfere with their otherwise completely capable thought process. To the rest, "See you around." EDIT Want to clarify that am not including legitimate reasons like "I'm not comfortable yet," or "I don't feel I know you well enough yet." in the lame excuse category. Lame excuses are "I am not over my ex (and they broke up a year ago)," or "I think you are a player" "You haven't earned that yet," etc.

Which decision are you talking about? To have sex with me?

 

The attitude to have during this is casual and light, not "a big deal is being decided here." That kind of attitude is communicated subconsciously and is contagious, and most of the reasons for friendzoning involve the guy creating an awkward, heavy, uncomfortable pressure-laden environment.

Yeah I've done that.

 

But most often was that I created a zero pressure, don't want sex at all, let me be your brother environment.

OTOH, a light, flirty fun attitude is also contagious, and goes a long way towards creating what women mistakenly call "chemistry" but is actually just feeling at ease with someone one finds attractive enough to get physical with.

Getting women to feel at ease isn't that hard. The attraction part is the real killer.

Women enjoy being led in dancing and in courtship. If you have a casual, light and fun "no big deal" attitude about things, they will also.

I have plenty of experience of women wanting to be led in dancing. And being easy going and fun is the best way to do it.

 

But courtship, I'll just have to take your word for it.

 

One other thing, sometimes as part of their game playing, they will make as if it's a big deal to you even though you haven't expressed that and certainly don't feel it, and try to put words in your mouth or ideas in your head upon rejecting your light advances, "are you mad now??" "have I hurt you??" Never respond to this with anything other than "It's OK" laughing a bit as if you see right through their ruse, but then immediately terminate politely and smilingly with "I've got to get going now. See you around." Whatever you do, don't engage them on this immature, manipulative level as if there is any real discussion to be had. Stay relatively silent and odds are they will be banging your phone the minute you leave and banging you soon after.

I have never had a woman say something like "are you mad now??" "have I hurt you??"

 

I don't think I've gotten to the point where women have cared about me enough to even ask something like that. My more recent thread in the dating section covers that.

 

But thanks for the tips on how to answer.

[phineas]

100% true. 100% sad, but 100% true.

 

I had this problem last yr when I first started dateing again after my D papers got signed.

 

Had women on my couch with my hands on their ass, an inch from the promised land & was afraid to try for more.

 

FRIENDZONE!

 

I'm fixed now & have lost 30lbs since then & going to loose at least another 8 this month.

Some of those women are starting to sniff around again since I updated my facebook profile pic with a new slimmer/muscled me.

[somedude81]

So having a nice body is a way to get out of the friendzone.

 

And people say women aren't shallow...

[sanskrit]

So you are suggesting to wait for her to make the first move?

 

Nothing I posted stated or implied "let her make the first move," but I see the possible misunderstanding. It is not a matter of "making moves" or not yet. The "move" you make is in the initial approach, asking out, and creating opportunities for women who do find you attractive to show it. When done right, "moves" are not needed, and the progression is natural and fun.

 

Once you are good at recognizing their signals, you can start the casual touching yourself, but you yourself stated that you have a problem with doing this, hence the nature of the advice I gave.

 

Ask her if she wants to spend the night before you even kiss her?

 

What part of "once you are breaking the touch barrier" doesn't imply or include kissing, heavy making out, or other physical forms of affection such as handholding, arm in arm walking, even ass grabbing, etc.?

 

If she is gung ho in being physical, right then is the time to start propositioning her, as others say, they will get turned off if you don't, even if they have no intention of actually sleeping with you at that moment. Given reality.

 

I don't even want sex on the first date.

 

Nor do I generally and didn't imply that I did, unless there is prior history. The direct propositions don't start until later, but sooner is better than much later, as it seems lots of guys who have problems with friendzoning and post about it here wait way to long to make their physical/sexual interest clear. Just because you proposition her doesn't mean you are headed straight to bed, it may happen, often does not, and in how she responds, you get to see her thought process and whether it appeals to you or not. There are many more reasons to proposition a woman than just getting laid.

 

Which decision are you talking about? To have sex with me?

 

Could be, or more likely early on, the decision to view you as a prospective sexual relationship as you have left no uncertainty that is what you are interested in with her.

 

But most often was that I created a zero pressure, don't want sex at all, let me be your brother environment.

 

This is insincere and women have radar for this kind of dishonesty (despite that few will admit it, most all women know that many men who express interest are expressing sexual interest, self-deceiving themselves about this allows them to eat attention cake without feeling guilty), to be avoided. Make friends with women you want as friends. Approach sexually those whom you want to have sex with.

 

The kind of pressure I'm talking about is not that you have asked her to go to bed with you, but could be nervousness ("it's a great big deal to me how you respond, my ego is at stake!!"), clumsy or untimely physical pressure, bogus lines, poorly used PUA techniques, pouting or acting childish when first advances are turned away, or any advances that escalate too fast or make her uncomfortable, any sort of "heaviness" in talking especially. "I don't want you to do anything that will make you uncomfortable!" She doesn't need you to make noble or gentlemanly statements, and is perfectly capable of estimating her own comfort and making her own decisions. Worry about what you you want and expressing it, let her worry about what she wants and is comfortable with.

 

I have never had a woman say something like "are you mad now??" "have I hurt you??"

 

Once you start propositioning more women earlier, you will hear it more It means they really want to do it, and are having trouble persuading themselves not to, but are hoping you will blow it by engaging them in a non-conversation about an attitude you don't even have or feel. Strange but true. Along the same lines, "I'm not having sex with you tonight," means you are about to get jumped more often than not. Strange but true.

[somedude81]

Thanks for clearing up some points sanskrit, there were several areas that confused me.

 

Nothing I posted stated or implied "let her make the first move," but I see the possible misunderstanding. It is not a matter of "making moves" or not yet. The "move" you make is in the initial approach, asking out, and creating opportunities for women who do find you attractive to show it. When done right, "moves" are not needed, and the progression is natural and fun.

 

Once you are good at recognizing their signals, you can start the casual touching yourself, but you yourself stated that you have a problem with doing this, hence the nature of the advice I gave.

I was thinking about things too literally. I thought you meant, don't touch her until she touches you first. I misunderstood it.

 

No I don't have any issue with casual touching, just the more sexual non-friendly touching; like stroking her hair, putting my hand on her thigh, grabbing some ass, stuff like that.

 

What part of "once you are breaking the touch barrier" doesn't imply or include kissing, heavy making out, or other physical forms of affection such as handholding, arm in arm walking, even ass grabbing, etc.?

 

If she is gung ho in being physical, right then is the time to start propositioning her, as others say, they will get turned off if you don't, even if they have no intention of actually sleeping with you at that moment. Given reality.

Once again, I took it very literally. I thought there were some steps between breaking the touch barrier and actually being intimate.

 

Going for a kiss is something that terrifies me. So the thought of jumping right into sex just seemed insane.

 

Progressing into intimate touching is my greatest weakness.

 

The direct propositions don't start until later, but sooner is better than much later, as it seems lots of guys who have problems with friendzoning and post about it here wait way to long to make their physical/sexual interest clear. Just because you proposition her doesn't mean you are headed straight to bed, it may happen, often does not, and in how she responds, you get to see her thought process and whether it appeals to you or not. There are many more reasons to proposition a woman than just getting laid.

Yes, I definitely know about waiting too long to make my physical/sexual interest clear. That's a big part about why I get friendzoned so often.

 

I wait too long to let a girl know, so she makes up her mind about me and by the time I work up enough courage to tell her what I want, she's already decided that I'm just a friend and always will be.

 

What is the best way(s) to proposition a woman, to show her I want her without taking things too far?

 

This is insincere and women have radar for this kind of dishonesty (despite that few will admit it, most all women know that many men who express interest are expressing sexual interest, self-deceiving themselves about this allows them to eat attention cake without feeling guilty), to be avoided.

It's more complicated than being insincere. It's almost as if I'm lying to myself.

 

Also, I don't really start to get sexual thoughts towards a woman till after I've known her for a bit. Also I may be waiting for her to somehow communicate to me that it's OK to think sexually about her.

 

Make friends with women you want as friends. Approach sexually those whom you want to have sex with.

And that's the key issue of the thread. Why I get friendzoned. Because I don't sexually approach the women I want. Either because I'm afraid, or I just don't know how.

 

The kind of pressure I'm talking about is not that you have asked her to go to bed with you, but could be nervousness ("it's a great big deal to me how you respond, my ego is at stake!!"), clumsy or untimely physical pressure, bogus lines, poorly used PUA techniques, pouting or acting childish when first advances are turned away, or any advances that escalate too fast or make her uncomfortable, any sort of "heaviness" in talking especially. "I don't want you to do anything that will make you uncomfortable!" She doesn't need you to make noble or gentlemanly statements, and is perfectly capable of estimating her own comfort and making her own decisions. Worry about what you you want and expressing it, let her worry about what she wants and is comfortable with.

Got it.

Once you start propositioning more women earlier, you will hear it more It means they really want to do it, and are having trouble persuading themselves not to, but are hoping you will blow it by engaging them in a non-conversation about an attitude you don't even have or feel. Strange but true. Along the same lines, "I'm not having sex with you tonight," means you are about to get jumped more often than not. Strange but true.

Oh so that's what you were talking. It actually is a good sign. I didn't have a clue what you were talking about.

 

I really don't understand female psychology at all.

Edited May 1, 2011 by somedude81

[sanskrit]

I'm certainly no pro at female psychology myself, nor do I think that's really possible (same goes for "male" psychology), nor do I want to be as it requires too much focus away from what -I- want and -my- psychology and desires. Most of what I have posted here about dating is very basic stuff that took me longer in life to learn than it should have, there was no one to tell me otherwise, and when I was growing up there was lots of misinformation.

 

One part of your reply really stands out, the "waiting for her to communicate that it's ok to think sexually about her." That, IMO, is the crux of most friendzone problems. Quality, healthy women respond to men who already know what they want and clearly communicate it (respectfully) from the get-go without the need to seek permission or feel guilty about it. Or they don't respond, which means they simply aren't physically attracted and it's time to move on to other prospects.

 

Ask women whether they believe in equality of the sexes, and then immediately ask them if they like the man to lead when dancing. All IME will answer "yes" to both. So it's important for men to learn where equality ends and biology takes over. All the normal women I've known want the man to be clear that he desires them sexually. They like to take cues from us, not purely "being led" in a controlling way, but take cues, and most importantly, they live for feeling desired. But if we are guilty about it, or hesitant, it spoils the feeling for them to the point of killing it if that makes any sense.

 

If we are proud of our virility and desire for sex with them, they will be too. If we are ashamed of our desires, and over-think them, THEY WILL TOO. That's the parallel between the dance and sex. If we have a light, fun attitude about it, they do too. More often than not, friendzone problems are issues of a man who is conflicted between his desire and guilt, and wears this on his sleeve. Not attractive. Drop the guilt and indecision.

 

Moreover, men who have friendzone problems supplicate too much in worrying about offending some "delicate flower's" feelings, worry too much about what she wants. Well if she is a virgin or near virgin, that kind of thinking may not be misplaced. Don't know about you, though, but I've only dated one virgin in my life, and she may have been lying For the rest, worry about what you want and let them figure out what they want. They can smell this kind of attitude on a man and may call it "jerky" or "arrogant" despite it being nothing of the sort, but still find it very attractive because they can't control such men easily and everyone in the world prefers interesting and challenging to dull and easy to own. Their wormy male "pseudo friends" will cry "douchebag" or "alpha frat boy" or whatever, which is really a weak man's cry of envy. You see it all over these boards.

 

When I was much younger, women used to call me very "cerebral," a "genius," intellectually stimulating"... all the while not having sex with me. I was naive enough to take those things as compliments then. What they were really saying was "stop thinking so much and take my clothes off, dumbass!"

 

I thought at the time that all the infinite lists of things women say about what they want in a man are true, they aren't, or rather aren't the entire important truth. They want to be led, and they want to be desired. The rest is just window dressing for biding time between what really stimulates them. Of course they will apply all those list criteria to you once they start thinking long-term, but even then it's those two basic things, first principles, being led and being desired, that hold the rest together. Without those two things, nada.

[somedude81]

Thanks sanskrit, I'll need to read over this thread a few times to let it all sink in.