Lovelybird Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 Not difficult in my viewpoint. YMMV. To me it's about compatibility. I happened to be married to an uncommunicative woman, a relative rarity IME. My fault for not clearly seeing the incompatibilities. She's not a bad person and neither is the OP's boyfriend. Relationships are purely optional parts of life. Neither of them are required to be in a relationship. For example, he might be better matched with a woman like my exW, who prefers actions of service to talking about serious and intimate subjects. My ex would connect really well with a man like that. I don't see his actions in this case, his action is within his comfort zone. If I have a baby with a man, his offering some coffee and filling my car tank aren't going to make me feel better unless he shows matching degree of commitment, such as words of affection and willingness to stick it out with me including having a child with me--this is what D wants as my understanding of her posts. sounds like it is not communication problem, but more about his readiness and willingness. probably this is what troubles D.
Feelin Frisky Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 D-Lish, I'll hold my sympathies to the end in the hope that you'll really read what I have to say. A big reason why many people don't know what to do or what to say in times of great stress and trauma like this is because they are products of "neglect". It may even seem like they are coming from the "lovingest" of families where not a hair is out of place. But behind the scenes no one has been led to understand what trust is, how to really speak to each other without emotion flooding their guts, how to take risks in expressing love rather than doing acts to "buy people off" with gifts and deeds much like your b/f seems to be doing now. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's the truth I've experienced as a human being several years older than you who has wanted children and faced grave disappointment in choosing the wrong person late in normal child-rearing age. My very own mother is the ultimate illustration in my life of avoiding facing anything that might involve that "gutty feeling" where she might have to admit fault. She has eight children, the first of which is me, and although none of us has turned our bad or cruel or criminal in any way, none of us can talk to her or to each other about any kind of real feelings. Having been in such crisis mode as to face suicide myself and recover from that I call a spade a spade and can see where so many things went wrong and they continue to go wrong even when I try to apply my insight. I'm afraid that millions upon millions of people come up through their developmental years living the same unspoken avoidance of the hard things that risk those most uncomfortable feelings. Facing those feelings and being able to express love and not just try to "buy it off" with acts of kindness or gifts is what is wrapped up in every bit of advice I try to give people here on LS about medication and their pursuit of therapy. The issues are always going to be the same and even therapists and doctors don't know that even they may have been neglected in emotional regards and have lived lives of substituting symbolic acts they think buys them off responsibility to "feel the true feelings" of facing and expressing real depth of perception with significant others. Your b/f is not a loser for not being all you wish he were at this time. He just seems to be "normal". And I'm afraid "normal" is just not all that good enough in this case. We live in a society long premised on "repression"--as in "what NOT to do". We don't live in a society strong on telling us what "TO do" when we really need to know how to deal with something uncomfortable. He's probably a fine guy by most everyone's standards and I hope you come out of all of this landing on your feet with or without him. I'm sorry you have to suffer.
carhill Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 To me, as a man, the BF's proactive actions of service speak to his commitment. Also, his history, as related in the prior thread I linked, bears witness to some possible impetuses for his behavior, desire and commitment notwithstanding. As my exW once put it, 'I come home every night. I'm here. I'm having sex with you' She was absolutely correct. To her, that was showing love and commitment. It was simply a different interpretation of that phrase than mine. She saw my desire for verbal and emotional intimacy as 'abnormal' and said it with exactly that word on many occasions. I accepted that, finally, and we divorced. I agree that the BF is not a 'loser' and is likely a 'fine guy'. Time will tell if he is such a man for the OP. There is a difference. Hope it works out
Lovelybird Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 D-Lish, I'll hold my sympathies to the end in the hope that you'll really read what I have to say. A big reason why many people don't know what to do or what to say in times of great stress and trauma like this is because they are products of "neglect". It may even seem like they are coming from the "lovingest" of families where not a hair is out of place. But behind the scenes no one has been led to understand what trust is, how to really speak to each other without emotion flooding their guts, how to take risks in expressing love rather than doing acts to "buy people off" with gifts and deeds much like your b/f seems to be doing now. Sorry if that sounds harsh but that's the truth I've experienced as a human being several years older than you who has wanted children and faced grave disappointment in choosing the wrong person late in normal child-rearing age. My very own mother is the ultimate illustration in my life of avoiding facing anything that might involve that "gutty feeling" where she might have to admit fault. She has eight children, the first of which is me, and although none of us has turned our bad or cruel or criminal in any way, none of us can talk to her or to each other about any kind of real feelings. Having been in such crisis mode as to face suicide myself and recover from that I call a spade a spade and can see where so many things went wrong and they continue to go wrong even when I try to apply my insight. I'm afraid that millions upon millions of people come up through their developmental years living the same unspoken avoidance of the hard things that risk those most uncomfortable feelings. Facing those feelings and being able to express love and not just try to "buy it off" with acts of kindness or gifts is what is wrapped up in every bit of advice I try to give people here on LS about medication and their pursuit of therapy. The issues are always going to be the same and even therapists and doctors don't know that even they may have been neglected in emotional regards and have lived lives of substituting symbolic acts they think buys them off responsibility to "feel the true feelings" of facing and expressing real depth of perception with significant others. Your b/f is not a loser for not being all you wish he were at this time. He just seems to be "normal". And I'm afraid "normal" is just not all that good enough in this case. We live in a society long premised on "repression"--as in "what NOT to do". We don't live in a society strong on telling us what "TO do" when we really need to know how to deal with something uncomfortable. He's probably a fine guy by most everyone's standards and I hope you come out of all of this landing on your feet with or without him. I'm sorry you have to suffer. I am sorry for your past, you made some good points. I still don't understand, did you mean that D's bf probably had been neglected in the past, and that prevent him from expressing he wants child with D, either in action or words? or simply he just isn't ready for such commitment? well, if D's bf stick with her, showing he wants to be with her no matter what including having a child, then his action shows his intention. Otherwise, a good friend can offer some coffee, fill her car tank, the point is what action makes the difference between a good friend and a committed man. this is important, Carhill. not just any action, but actions really match the willingness.
carhill Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 IDK, I've never had a good friend sit with me when I'm sick nor make me a cup of coffee, nor any of the actions that the OP's BF has performed for her. That would include 'friends' of both female and male gender. Not unimportantly, my exW didn't do those things either (I can provide some great specific anecdotes) which was indicative of her 'style', and she accepted a marriage proposal and married me. My proposal, to her, indicated that I valued and was attracted to her 'style'. I think this is where Kamille's observation about communication comes in and where, in my case, I neglected to *clearly* communicate my feelings, desires and preferences, and, concurrently, to set clear boundaries of what interactions/perspectives were acceptable and what weren't. My exW and I went through a number of suspected miscarriages, as well as discussion of adoption, and, like the OP, I was left wanting for the kind of intimate discussions which, in my view, should naturally surround such events. Like her BF, my exW has a different 'view'. This was consistent across her range of relationships, from her last husband to all of our mutual friendships. That might be another factor for the OP to consider; one of consistency. If BF shows his love, affection and commitment historically and currently through his actions as opposed to words, then he does. He may 'feel' he's being loving, affectionate and commited, and I think that's valid. Others, including us and the OP, are entitled to our perceptions, which in no way invalidate his. Again, compatibility and choice. Many potentials
Feelin Frisky Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) ... did you mean that D's bf probably had been neglected in the past, and that prevent him from expressing he wants child with D, either in action or words? .... I didn't mean to imply that he is a particularly unique product of neglect. I went into my own story to try to say that there is something neglectful in general in the way many if not most Americans are raised. There are notions of "normality" that have been passed through generations of people so that no one even knows that they are subject to question and a lot of us think that as long as there's no hate between us that qualifies as love or peace. It doesn't. It sounds like you're interested so please stay with me a little more. I regularly experience situations in my family where I get the feeling that who I'm speaking with has already made a huge conclusion that they can't talk to me--as if we're still six years old or something and any attempt to negotiate some kind of progress in "getting along" automatically implies "fault" which will precipitate an uncomfortable argument. Well, what else happens when we are six years old? We get sent by our parents to the big processing machine called education where no function exists whatsoever to facilitate our social development with each other or cause us to look at and assess the degrees of progress we make with ourselves in dealing with our feelings, expressing them with our families or sharing them with potential lovers. We go through the next twelve to sixteen or more years of this big "neglect machine" which is only interested in turning grades D and C into B and A and then assuming everything is OK with the world. All along, we've never put any common stock on our emotional and social development. This is how and why I say people, perhaps including D-Lish's b/f, are products of neglect. The possible fact that someone's parents may be particularly neglectful and not provide for a child is something entirely extra over the "neglect" that I see as "institutionalized" as "normal". This doesn't explain everything and doesn't ensure anything because people can reason for themselves and become very empathetic despite their emotionally neglectful and sometimes cruel educational "processing". But it does play a role when no one thinks there's anything wrong because they all came through the same system of avoidance of all things emotional and social and are squeezed into some sense of normality which doesn't include facing and expressing real feelings when the times come and instead buying a manufactured "greeting card" that buys them out of the situation (at least in their mind). I know people will quibble with what I say but it's one of those "800 pound gorillas" in the room that are so big no one can see them. ETA: To make a long story short, I'm saying he is probably "normal". But here is where "normal" is not good enough. There's a lot wrong with "normal". Edited March 14, 2011 by Feelin Frisky
Lovelybird Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 I didn't mean to imply that he is a particularly unique product of neglect. I went into my own story to try to say that there is something neglectful in general in the way many if not most Americans are raised. There are notions of "normality" that have been passed through generations of people so that no one even knows that they are subject to question and a lot of us think that as long as there's no hate between us that qualifies as love or peace. It doesn't. It sounds like you're interested so please stay with me a little more. I regularly experience situations in my family where I get the feeling that who I'm speaking with has already made a huge conclusion that they can't talk to me--as if we're still six years old or something and any attempt to negotiate some kind of progress in "getting along" automatically implies "fault" which will precipitate an uncomfortable argument. Well, what else happens when we are six years old? We get sent by our parents to the big processing machine called education where no function exists whatsoever to facilitate our social development with each other or cause us to look at and assess the degrees of progress we make with ourselves in dealing with our feelings, expressing them with our families or sharing them with potential lovers. We go through the next twelve to sixteen or more years of this big "neglect machine" which is only interested in turning grades D and C into B and A and then assuming everything is OK with the world. All along, we've never put any common stock on our emotional and social development. This is how and why I say people, perhaps including D-Lish's b/f, are products of neglect. The possible fact that someone's parents may be particularly neglectful and not provide for a child is something entirely extra over the "neglect" that I see as "institutionalized" as "normal". This doesn't explain everything and doesn't ensure anything because people can reason for themselves and become very empathetic despite their emotionally neglectful and sometimes cruel educational "processing". But it does play a role when no one thinks there's anything wrong because they all came through the same system of avoidance of all things emotional and social and are squeezed into some sense of normality which doesn't include facing and expressing real feelings when the times come and instead buying a manufactured "greeting card" that buys them out of the situation (at least in their mind). I know people will quibble with what I say but it's one of those "800 pound gorillas" in the room that are so big no one can see them. ETA: To make a long story short, I'm saying he is probably "normal". But here is where "normal" is not good enough. There's a lot wrong with "normal". I feel sad how your childhood was, and start to see your point of view. assume you were D's bf, how would you act when she told you about the miscarriage?
threebyfate Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 Emotive language and actions aren't for everyone. As well, neither is open expression of such. Consider the couples who gush their love at each other, pull kissy faces all the time, baby talk, PDA with tongues down each other throats, slap each other on their arses or grope, all done in full view of the public. Yuck! No thanks! And yet, that's how different people express their affections, uncaring of their audience. For that matter, maybe the audience ramps up the thrills and chills. If my distaste is viewed as dysfunctional and lacking a foundation of affection, so be it. My perception is that there are things best kept in the home or bedroom between two individuals, instead of forced onto everyone else. What makes sense are people who express themselves in similar fashion getting together, where sometimes there needs to be minor adjustments and compromises to meet in the middle. This, I believe is what carhill is intimating. This guy appears to be willing to do what it takes. When D expressed her need for him to be there, he did it in the way he knew how. He stuck by her and would still be continuing to stick by her, had things not melted down. I totally get why D needs someone who can communicate. But no one can read each other's minds and until clear expression of needs has been facilitated, you cannot hold anyone responsible for their inability to meet unexpressed expectations. This is what Kamille has identified. And I too sit unable to meet D's needs. Her confusion and frustration are evident. How can I try to meet her needs if she doesn't understand them herself? At least with us, she's expressed her desire for wanting the baby and her dismay that he wasn't all in and happy when she told him about their accidental pregnancy and we can draw some conclusions from that. And to be frank and possibly risking making things up like everyone else, I wonder if part of D is misplacing anger, from loss of the baby. Considering how soon after their loss, this might also be coming across to him in a way that has triggered his past experiences. Don't know and can only guess on this. The only way to find all of this out, is for the two of them to sit down and have a frank discussion. Sure, it makes people vulnerable. But aren't the potential rewards worth the risk? What I have noticed with some men is that they won't be open, since what they have to say, has no positive returns for them. In other words, they're going to say something negative which will result in more acrimony. And yet to not express them, creates potential for worse thoughts to cross the mind of their partners. Risk/return and cost/benefit. Anyways, I've meandered around too much by thinking out loud.
threebyfate Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 Thanks carhill. I did forget one thing. I've also experienced being emotionally stonewalled where no matter how much you try to get the other person to open up, they won't. Whether this guy is a wall or just empty and maybe D also has a wall, who knows? Wish I could read that email she sent to him. It might shed some light onto the unanswered questions.
Author D-Lish Posted March 16, 2011 Author Posted March 16, 2011 I know I do have some walls:o. He's just being distant with me now- but that's understandable as I did ask for space. We were supposed to meet last night to talk, but he cancelled at the last moment. I suggested tonight but he'd made other plans. I can't have it both ways, I can't ask for space and then be upset that he's avoiding me. I have to respect that he might need some time to figure out if he wants to be with me as well.
Art_Critic Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Hey D-lish... I'm coming into this thread a bit late and as such I can see you have already gotten some good advice, but I just wanted to tell you I hope it works out with the guy.. I haven't seen you as happy as you have been since you met him... ~Art is crossing his fingers hoping that love will prevail and you both will come together on this.. I'm also sorry to hear about your loss... I feel your pain and have been there myself in another life (well .. in his shoes anyhow) ****Hugs****
Author D-Lish Posted March 16, 2011 Author Posted March 16, 2011 Hey D-lish... I'm coming into this thread a bit late and as such I can see you have already gotten some good advice, but I just wanted to tell you I hope it works out with the guy.. I haven't seen you as happy as you have been since you met him... ~Art is crossing his fingers hoping that love will prevail and you both will come together on this.. I'm also sorry to hear about your loss... I feel your pain and have been there myself in another life (well .. in his shoes anyhow) ****Hugs**** Thanks Art:love: I'm thinking that I just need some time to heal. My emotions are all over the place right now. I'm sad one moment, angry the next, then I feel guilty. Now that I've asked for space, he's pulling away and being distant with me. It upsets me, but I asked for it I really do need some space to get my head on straight, but I don't want to close any doors. I think he believes I am closing the door and is going into protecting himself mode.
Eddie Edirol Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Thanks Art:love: I'm thinking that I just need some time to heal. My emotions are all over the place right now. I'm sad one moment, angry the next, then I feel guilty. Now that I've asked for space, he's pulling away and being distant with me. It upsets me, but I asked for it I really do need some space to get my head on straight, but I don't want to close any doors. I think he believes I am closing the door and is going into protecting himself mode. D from what I gather in this whole thread is his "deer in the headlights" mode. If you want to give him a chance, *(if you havent already done so) I think you need to ask him brief direct questions that he can directly answer. We already know a few things, you WANTED this baby, and you know that he doesnt - at least not by accident. Thats a direct question "do you want babies in the future?" Since you cant vent and get him to talk to you about problems, you could give him questions that he can solve. Questions that arent open ended. I know this doesnt really help you emotionally, but you can at least try to see what kind of answers he can come up with. if you want to know why he clams up, ask him directly "Do you not like talking about deep emotional issues?" Actually lemme ask you this, can you transcribe what you expect the emotional support conversation to be in your best scenario? His part and your part, about this issue, if he were to be able to talk? How you would picture it going the way you wanted?
Author D-Lish Posted March 16, 2011 Author Posted March 16, 2011 Actually lemme ask you this, can you transcribe what you expect the emotional support conversation to be in your best scenario? His part and your part, about this issue, if he were to be able to talk? How you would picture it going the way you wanted? A part of me does wonder if some of my expectations are just a little too demanding of him. I don't want to put him in a position to fail, but maybe that's what I am doing. If I could map out what would change everything for me right now, he'd show up at my door unannounced- tell me he loves me, and say he wants to make things work. I know it's completely unrealistic of me to suggest a break to him, then secretly hope that he'll step up to the plate and suddenly start gushing that he can't live without me, lol. All I can tell you is that, if I could describe in one word how I feel right now, it would be "traumatized". When I felt that first cramp, I just knew what was happening- and he was right there to take me to the dr. I think I am figuring out that a lot of my anger is actually coming down to the fact that I wanted this, he was ambivalent, and he got what he wanted.... at my expense. I know that's an irrational thought, and I can't punish HIM for a natural event. I know it's hard for a guy to understand what this is like for a woman.
Eddie Edirol Posted March 16, 2011 Posted March 16, 2011 Its not hard for me to understand, you wanted a baby, and you wanted him to want it also. I was trying to broach the subject of your original post, but youre not in the frame of mind to think about how your picture your ideal communication with him - if he didnt do the "deer in the headlights" bit. Ill ask again when youve worked through your feelings.
Author D-Lish Posted March 20, 2011 Author Posted March 20, 2011 I have an update. My guy and I have resumed talking, and we've really made a lot of progress. He's actually done a lot of opening up the last couple of days. We went for dinner last night and had a really lazy Saturday today. We spent most of the day in bed drinking coffee and watching tv- and a lot of talking- both last night and all day today. I feel a great sense of relief. He said that the only thing on his mind for the past couple months has been coming up with the perfect thing to say to make things alright, but he was constantly afraid of saying the wrong thing. He admitted that he's not great at talking about things. He said that his relationship with his ex has affected how he interacts with me. He said that he got to the point with her where everything he said evoked her ire and scruitiny- so he got used to remaining quiet. We both agreed to try and put our pasts aside and try and live in the confines of our relationship, instead of reacting based on our experiences from the past.
Author D-Lish Posted March 20, 2011 Author Posted March 20, 2011 Good news, as long as you're happy with it!! Thanks. I think what I saw the past couple days is that I have a guy that's totally willing to do what it takes to be with me. I think that comfort was lacking previously. I think I contributed to my own insecurities also. He mentioned that I have a tendancy to pretend I am okay when I am not. He says my behaviour sometimes confuses him because I act like everything is perfect and wonderful, then all of a sudden I'd go at him telling him he wasn't supporting me. It's becoming a lot clearer to me how I contributed to the communication problem. I too have some work to do- and he gave me some pointers on how to approach him better. It was an enlightening 24 hours. In the back of my mind, always lurking during my pregnancy was the thought that he might have been staying with me because I was pregnant. To have him express how much he loves me and wants to do what it takes to get us back on track has given me so much comfort. I have a lot of hope we can get back on track. He had a bachelor party to go to tonight- which sort of sucked because I was enjoying re-connecting with him, but he just texted me that he wants to come over after so he can wake up with me in the morning.
threebyfate Posted March 20, 2011 Posted March 20, 2011 This really is wonderful news! The two of you sat down and broke through some barriers in communications. 'Tis what happens when people really do want to make the effort to be with each other. It's scary to open up and reveal vulnerabilities so hats off to the two of you!
Author D-Lish Posted March 20, 2011 Author Posted March 20, 2011 This really is wonderful news! The two of you sat down and broke through some barriers in communications. 'Tis what happens when people really do want to make the effort to be with each other. It's scary to open up and reveal vulnerabilities so hats off to the two of you! Thanks, I like your new avatar It was also refreshing to hear someone tell me what they need from ME. It gave me some perspective on how I can better conduct myself as well.
Art_Critic Posted March 20, 2011 Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks, I like your new avatar It was also refreshing to hear someone tell me what they need from ME. It gave me some perspective on how I can better conduct myself as well. I wonder how she found some picture of some hot chick with the lettering TBF on the bottom of it D-lish.. working thru this issue like you both are doing is amazing.. it shows me how invested he is in you and it also shows how invested you are in him.. I admire you....
threebyfate Posted March 20, 2011 Posted March 20, 2011 Thanks. Well, you know how easy it is to find pics on the Internet with exactly the right username acronym in them, where my face just coincidentally happened to match the other pics posted on LS.
Recommended Posts