heartshaped Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Yes, this is how I approach discussions with him, but right now I am angry about those things. That is why I'm not sure we have a 2nd chance. You're talking about the way to approach it productively if I were to move forward, and I don't disagree. I'm not sure I want to move forward. I'd love to move backward and make it all go away. But I'm not sure I can ever forgive his not being there. I get that attitude, but this isn't 2 bricks in the wall to me. This is like he knocked down the wall and now wants me to help him rebuild it. That's how I feel at present. And as much as I love the wall, I'm not sure I can. But it wasn't as if he just up and left. The two of you fought, frequently in my opinion, for the last couple of months and this caused him stress, unhappiness, what have you and he acted rashly. The fact that he has come back at all, despite rather quickly, says to me that he does in fact care deeply for you and regrets his decision. I think he was just upset and tired of fighting with you. He's a non-confrontational person who was faced with a great deal of confrontation and then you gave him an out, hoping he wouldn't take it, then, he did. I think you are being a little too hard on him.
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Haha well a brick wall is pretty difficult to love. Especially if it has 2 bricks that are bad. God I couldn't handle that! The second paragraph. You want me to tell you what you are doing wrong. Wouldn't that go against everything I just said? Be the change you see in others. Meaning if I see someone doing something I feel is "wrong" or they are messing up "x" I start thinking about whether I truly do those things right. Maybe your mistakes are a lack of you admitting them. Things you've done or said. Think of the things he's done wrong, the times he's done something that you felt wasn't right. What did you do that could have caused that? Consider something you said earlier. This thread is about me and all you did was come in here and talk about your problems. Haha well doesn't that make sense for my ideals? I don't believe in solving your problems. Although I truly hope you solve as many of them as possible. I believe in solving my own problems, and then prehaps people can take the important things I learned from any given experience and incorporate them into their own lives. So yeah, I talked about times that I was upset for how to deal with being upset. I can only get you to my level of emotional control. It's up to you to exceed that. I can't come in here and pretend I'm god and tell you all the answers. I'm not god. These are the ideals I live by and I'm pretty happy. Is this a thread about your problems? Or is it a thread about his problems and "the relationships" problems? Think about that. I am already reflective and have pretty good emotional control. If you see a specific place to criticize me, I have no issues with constructive criticism. The issue I have with your criticism is it is general. That's all I'll say back to you. I'm not interested in talking philosophy or having a philosophical debate right now. I'm actually dealing with something way more important to me in this moment, as evidenced by this thread. I don't know how you get from me asking you to point out what you're actually criticizing me for (specifically) to "I'm not god."
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Fair enough. The only grain of truth I'd extract from his comments is that it will empower you to frame this in your mind as a learning experience rather than a random occurrence. Like, would you change any aspect, no matter how small, about what you look for in a partner based on this experience? I would maybe have talked about relationships more in the beginning. This guy and I didn't really talk about them, except in the context of our exes. We needed to talk more about what we needed/looked for in a relationship, and maybe this wouldn't have happened. But it wasn't as if he just up and left. The two of you fought, frequently in my opinion, for the last couple of months and this caused him stress, unhappiness, what have you and he acted rashly. The fact that he has come back at all, despite rather quickly, says to me that he does in fact care deeply for you and regrets his decision. I think he was just upset and tired of fighting with you. He's a non-confrontational person who was faced with a great deal of confrontation and then you gave him an out, hoping he wouldn't take it, then, he did. I think you are being a little too hard on him. I guess it felt like he up and left. Most of the fights were over a month ago and resolved. We had a very small fight last weekend, after I was extremely understanding about a situation he had the weekend before (and we did not fight about it, when he 'expected' we would), and after we had many good, happy weeks. Then, he basically sulked all weekend, I guess. I thought he was just not feeling well, but he said later he stewed. Then, things blew up. Though, yes, I pushed him. Part of me wanted to break up with him before he broke up with me. I didn't want to be blindsided by it. I knew something was up and he was thinking about it, and he admitted it. I guess to me, even thinking about breaking up with someone is a betrayal. So is thinking about cheating. I'd never do the latter, and by the time I think of breaking up with someone (my choice), I'm 100% out of the relationship. So he and I are different that way.
Ms. Joolie Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Okay, I got it, I got it! This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to write a heartfelt communication from both Zengirl and Zengirl's ex. It will be fun. From: Zengirl To: Zengirl's Ex Dear Honey, I've been so frustrated over all our misunderstandings! I hate that they get in the way of our relationship! I don't know what to do about them. I would like your help in this. It gets me even more frustrated that you withdraw after one of our misunderstandings. I'm left going in a circle of confusion and frustration and upset...! I don't want it to be this way. I want to have a relationship where, when there is a misunderstanding, we can both work together to sort it out - free of drama, free of blaming, free of frustration. Whenever there is a misunderstanding, I just want to be there with you, get to an understanding and then move on. It doesn't have to be an argument. It's just a simple fix to s understanding. Next. That's what I want. I just want the misunderstandings to fly by us and there be no drama. With every misunderstanding, we'll get to an understanding... no drama. Agree? From: Zengirl's Ex To: Zengirl Dear Babe, Look, with all our misunderstandings and fights and frustrations, I just don't know that we are compatible. I'm worried about what we are doing and where this is going. I don't love this and I don't know that I love you in all this. I don't know! I have to withdraw, I have to think about things before I can feel better. I don't know what you want going forward, but I'm willing to give this another go. I'm sorry for all our frustrations and fighting, and I'm back because I want this to work, too. ...Ta-da! Isn't that cute?? I needed that.
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Interesting exercise, Ms. Joolie. To me, these thoughts (in his imaginary letter) are diametrically opposed: Look, with all our misunderstandings and fights and frustrations, I just don't know that we are compatible. I'm worried about what we are doing and where this is going. I don't love this and I don't know that I love you in all this. I don't know! I'm sorry for all our frustrations and fighting, and I'm back because I want this to work, too. I guess I also just think he's back because he was in pain without me and found out I was on OKC again and couldn't stand the thought of me dating someone else. And he tried to come back with text. (And then later drunk dialed me when I didn't answer right away. Charming.) I guess I just don't believe. I wish I did because I was pretty crazy about him and really miss him.
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 What happened in his past relationships when he came back to his exes? I don't know. I do know it took a lot longer in all cases. One, they were roommates, so that was inevitable to slide back and it still took over a month. Another took 2 months. All I know is he said (during the break up talk), "Basically everyone I've ever broken up with, I had to break up with twice, over the same problems." We were talking about how if we broke up, there was no coming back, how I felt it broke the trust forever, and if he wanted to work through this he had to do it with me. And yet. . . we broke up, and he came back.
dispatch3d Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 You just focused on the wrong letter missy . That says a lot right there.
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 You just focused on the wrong letter missy . That says a lot right there. I read both. The one she wrote from my POV expressed it well. I don't know if she expressed his POV well, but if she did, I cannot understand his POV at all. And you are missing the point of all of this and trying to derail the thread with philosophy again. If I were going with philosophy, I definitely wouldn't re-commit to this relationship. I'd look elsewhere.
dispatch3d Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I read both. The one she wrote from my POV expressed it well. I don't know if she expressed his POV well, but if she did, I cannot understand his POV at all. And you are missing the point of all of this and trying to derail the thread with philosophy again. If I were going with philosophy, I definitely wouldn't re-commit to this relationship. I'd look elsewhere. haha so my view is philosophy, your view is gold. Note to self.
heartshaped Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I guess it felt like he up and left. Most of the fights were over a month ago and resolved. We had a very small fight last weekend, after I was extremely understanding about a situation he had the weekend before (and we did not fight about it, when he 'expected' we would), and after we had many good, happy weeks. Then, he basically sulked all weekend, I guess. I thought he was just not feeling well, but he said later he stewed. Then, things blew up. Though, yes, I pushed him. Part of me wanted to break up with him before he broke up with me. I didn't want to be blindsided by it. I knew something was up and he was thinking about it, and he admitted it. I guess to me, even thinking about breaking up with someone is a betrayal. So is thinking about cheating. I'd never do the latter, and by the time I think of breaking up with someone (my choice), I'm 100% out of the relationship. So he and I are different that way. These things aren't so unusual, it's just the way you handle these emotions that make a world of difference. He shouldn't have stewed on the incident or if he was still thinking about it he should have confided in you and talked about it with you. But admittedly, you pushed him and that was the wrong thing to do in that situation especially to someone like him. I do think you and him differ in personality tremendously, but the key is to know and accept these differences. Personally, I don't think thinking about breaking up is that big of a betrayal and I think the reason it bothers you so much is because of how you feel/think when you are thinking of breaking up and you are assuming that he thinks the same way.
Ms. Joolie Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 To me, these thoughts (in his imaginary letter) are diametrically opposed... Oh, okay. Ahem. "I don't love our fighting and I don't know that I love us fighting. I'm sorry that all this is happening and I'm back because I want us to try again. I want it to work."
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 haha so my view is philosophy, your view is gold. Note to self. Your view is philosophy because you spout pat, generalized things, rather than address specifics of the situation.
Ms. Joolie Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I added the apology in because it's always good to hear an apology!! Doesn't mean that anybody owes anybody one though! lol
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Oh, okay. Ahem. "I don't love our fighting and I don't know that I love us fighting. I'm sorry that all this is happening and I'm back because I want us to try again. I want it to work." I didn't think your letter was wrong. I just thought those two sections expressed why I feel so confused and conflicted about his return. If that makes sense. These things aren't so unusual, it's just the way you handle these emotions that make a world of difference. He shouldn't have stewed on the incident or if he was still thinking about it he should have confided in you and talked about it with you. But admittedly, you pushed him and that was the wrong thing to do in that situation especially to someone like him. I do think you and him differ in personality tremendously, but the key is to know and accept these differences. Personally, I don't think thinking about breaking up is that big of a betrayal and I think the reason it bothers you so much is because of how you feel/think when you are thinking of breaking up and you are assuming that he thinks the same way. Yes, I agree with all of this intellectually. But I don't know if things can change. I also don't know if I can get my emotions on board.
dispatch3d Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 Your view is philosophy because you spout pat, generalized things, rather than address specifics of the situation. Yeah, it's pretty easy to discredit someones ideas when you disagree with them. I mean your communication problems are everywhere. I can point them out indirectly and nicely, give you big views on how to view these things, explain to you (very longwindidly I might add) the best advise I've received on these things and I look into them a lot. I could also point out specific instances in a very nice and joking manner when you on this board are being not very nice/accomodating of others. Yet really, the only person who can change you is you. Why you keep looking to me (or this board) for that I don't know.
Kamille Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) ZG, from you pushing him by asking "do you want to break up" while in a fight, to the description of your disagreements earlier, I'm also getting the sense that you're fudging over the details that are relevant in revealing what you contributed to your dysfunctions. How much of a perfectionist are you? And have people told you in the past that you're a very proud person? That's the impression I'm getting here. Though, yes, I pushed him. Part of me wanted to break up with him before he broke up with me. I didn't want to be blindsided by it. I knew something was up and he was thinking about it, and he admitted it. Pride. I've been in those shoes (having a guy express doubts), and my first thought wasn't I'll break up with you before you break up with me. Instead, I told him I believe in us and would give him the room to think it through. I didn't feel I was being foolish for doing so. I knew what I felt and was following my heart instead of following my ego. I guess to me, even thinking about breaking up with someone is a betrayal. So is thinking about cheating. I'd never do the latter, and by the time I think of breaking up with someone (my choice), I'm 100% out of the relationship. So he and I are different that way. You're imposing your beliefs on him then. Those beliefs are pretty rigid. People are allowed to have doubts and express those doubts. Although, I now realize you two have only been together about 6 months, so I understand why you have so categorical in your approach. I I guess I also just think he's back because he was in pain without me and found out I was on OKC again and couldn't stand the thought of me dating someone else. And why exatly were you on OKC that same night? Be honest with yourself, if not with us. Were you hoping precisely that he would see it and realize you were moving on (Pride)? Is this fear that the only reason he wants your back is because he can't stand the thought of seeing you with someone else actually of your own doing? I guess I just don't believe. I wish I did because I was pretty crazy about him and really miss him. Fine. I guess that should all that is left to be said. You don't believe. Yet, a part of me wonders if the reason you don't believe is because you want to test exactly how far he is willing to go to work on things with you. Else, why this thread? Edited February 28, 2011 by Kamille
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 How much of a perfectionist are you? And have people told you in the past that you're a very proud person? That's the impression I'm getting here. I'm proud, but I usually get around it. Not a perfectionist at all. You're imposing your beliefs on him then. Those beliefs are pretty rigid. People are allowed to have doubts and express those doubts. Although, I now realize you two have only been together about 6 months, so I understand why you have so categorical in your approach. 8 months. Did I mis-type somewhere? But, it's not about him expressing doubts. To me, having doubts and considering breaking up are very different things. And why exatly were you on OKC that same night? Be honest with yourself, if not with us. Were you hoping precisely that he would see it and realize you were moving on (Pride)? Is this fear that the only reason he wants your back is because he can't stand the thought of seeing you with someone else actually of your own doing? I was there because I wanted to get on with things and reconnect with potential new partners. I didn't realize he'd know about it until his roommate started popping up in all my searches as a top match and appearing along the side (I presume I popped up for him as well, as that's how the algorithim works). I knew my ex wouldn't be on the site. I'm still not sure he does, but I feel like he does. I definitely wanted to FEEL like I was moving on for my own pride, but I actually almost didn't put it up because I was worried about my ex seeing it. I only did after I realized he definitely wouldn't date for awhile and had taken his down ages ago. Fine. I guess that should all that is left to be said. You don't believe. Yet, a part of me wonders if the reason you don't believe is because you want to test exactly how far he is willing to go to work on things with you. Else, why this thread? You keep thinking I'm trying to make him "prove" something or "make it up to me" but I don't know where I expressed that sentiment. I don't. I *want* to believe is all. The point of this thread, which has mostly been lost in it, is to see WHY people have these doubts and IF they ever went back to someone and got THROUGH the doubts, rather than the same thing happening again. Nobody really addressed that much, but it was the point. I wanted someone to tell me something that made me think I could believe. Still hoping somewhere -- here or elsewhere -- that will happen.
Kamille Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I feel that we have offered thoughts on how to get through doubts and tough times. Bf and I have worked through doubts in our relationship. It involved both of us figuring out how we each contributed to the dynamic we disliked in our relationship. Many of us have spent quite some time trying to help you figure out how you've contributed to the dysfunction, and apart from saying you pushed when you shouldn't have, you've shot down everything we said might have contributed. I think your gut feeling is telling to move on. I'm certainly not trying to convince you to stay in the relationship. It does sound like you firmly believe that he's right: your differing ways of handling conflict actually mean you're incompatible. You need someone who can assert his needs. You need someone who won't express doubts early on in a relationship (8 months - I just browsed your past threads and thought it was 6.) Those are all very legitimate needs. It sounds like he's not the one who can fulfill them.
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Many of us have spent quite some time trying to help you figure out how you've contributed to the dysfunction, and apart from saying you pushed when you shouldn't have, you've shot down everything we said might have contributed. I was looking more for someone who'd experienced doubts, thought about breaking up with a partner over incompatibilities, and then come back, and had it work out. Or someone who could explain to me how that was even possible. I wasn't looking for problem solving I could do; I know that is not productive, as it is part of what derailed us. I was looking for how these doubts actually subside for a man like this. Me tackling them head-on won't work; that's how I was approaching doubts and problems before. It's funny, Woggle's two-line post gave me more insight than most of the rest, honestly, since it spoke to more of what he might have gone through. Your comments on how he might feel during conflict also helped me see some of where he was, but I didn't see anyone say WHERE he could go from there. I'm entirely worried about his frame of mind, going forward. I figure he's just miserable either way at this point.
Kamille Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 I guess I was more focused on trying to figure out where you could go from here. Let me ask you this: do you think there was any legitimacy to his doubts?
heartshaped Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 The point of this thread, which has mostly been lost in it, is to see WHY people have these doubts and IF they ever went back to someone and got THROUGH the doubts, rather than the same thing happening again. Nobody really addressed that much, but it was the point. I wanted someone to tell me something that made me think I could believe. Still hoping somewhere -- here or elsewhere -- that will happen. I can only speak from personal experience, but as I've already said, I don't like confrontation. Usually, in my relationships, I leave after some big confrontation. I wouldn't say I have "doubts" as much as I just decide that I'd rather be alone than argue with this person and be unhappy. Though I did have doubts in my most serious past relationship and in this one. Both times, the doubts have been caused by confrontation. My current relationship, we've been together almost two years now, things went pretty much the same way. We got into a fight back in October, I can't even remember what it was over now, and I got very upset, I dwelt on the issue a good bit, he asked if I wanted out several times, and I finally admitted I did. We were both under a lot of stress, I didn't want to really work on the issues we were having, I was wondering if we could even make it through our situation, and besides that, I just don't like arguing at all or handle it well. I immediately apologized and begged him to forgive me maybe ten-fifteen minutes later? It wasn't long. I have always been really good at recognizing my stupidity. He said he didn't know if he could forgive me for it, but I pressed and he admitted he loved me and wanted to work through things. We did, we have. I can't say I've honestly doubted things since then. I feel like if we could work through that and what we are going through now then we will be fine. Besides, I realized how my doubts were effecting him and myself. As he put it, I was either going to go through all the bad with him and the good or it was over. Still working on the way I handle/view confrontation, but even that has come along. My point being that if two parties really want something to work there's no reason they can't, but both parties have to be willing to do what it takes to make it work.
Ms. Joolie Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 The point of this thread, which has mostly been lost in it, is to see WHY people have these doubts and IF they ever went back to someone and got THROUGH the doubts, rather than the same thing happening again. Nobody really addressed that much, but it was the point. We were trying to get down to the cause of his doubts, which I can confidently state as three: Cause #1: HIM Cause #2: THE RELATIONSHIP Cause #3: YOU I wanted someone to tell me something that made me think I could believe. What are you wanting to believe?
Author zengirl Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 Thanks for the perspective, heartshaped. Of course, his was more than 15 minutes. Had it been same night, we'd be back together. We were trying to get down to the cause of his doubts, which I can confidently state as three: Cause #1: HIM Cause #2: THE RELATIONSHIP Cause #3: YOU Yes, I meant more his psychology of why he would doubt in this situation. What are you wanting to believe? That he is for real at the moment. I guess I was more focused on trying to figure out where you could go from here. Let me ask you this: do you think there was any legitimacy to his doubts? Do I think we're fundamentally incompatible? Not really. Or I definitely did not prior to this. Do I think it's okay to break up with someone and then return? No, not at all. Do I think it's natural to have some worries about how the relationship is progressing after conflict and stress? Yes, of course. But this was so much more extreme than that. How could he ever get back into a positive frame of mind about the relationship?
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