What Causes Doubts?

[zengirl]

I posted in the second chance forum because I am not sure I want to give my most recent boyfriend a second chance. I have a thread here made WHILE we were breaking up. So, this question applies to those, but is a separate question, really:

 

What makes someone doubt the relationship to where they say:

"I'm worried this isn't going anywhere between us."

"I don't know how I feel or if I love you or want to be with you forever."

"I'm worried we aren't compatible."

 

And then change their mind. Can just fighting do that? My boyfriend and I had a few fights in January, good weeks in February, then one fight, and then . . . he became withdrawn and only had these to offer as explanation. Now, he wishes he hadn't said anything. I want to try to understand where his head was even at, and he's too confused to tell me, so anyone who's had a similar circumstance, pleaes give me advice. I've never expressed those sentiments to a person, nor had an issue like this. All my break-ups had a very clear-cut reason.

 

This is a commitment-minded, marriage-minded guy who wants a woman who will be his partner and have children with him, so it's not basic commitmentphobia. Is it over-romanticism? Too high expectations? What?

[Ms. Joolie]

Here's what I learned from a communication class. If someone has doubts and concerns, if they are worried and confused, it is because of the conversation that is going on in their own head.

 

With everything that's happened between you two recently, he's built up a whole conversation of worry. It's THIS conversation that is getting replayed in his head, stuck in his head.

 

Now every time you would act the same way, bring up the same issues and make the same requests of him, that would trigger the same conversation of worry in his head.

 

That's probably where he is stuck. From your view, you are being proactive in the relationship. Either he gets this or he doesn't on some level, but it certainly wasn't occurring to him in a way that helped the relationship.

[xpaperxcutx]

I agree with Ms. Joolie, it's all in his head. Doubt were planted because of external conflict ( ie. the fights) and now he has a mental wall up about the relationship.

[Kamille]

I might not be the best person to give advice because I still struggle how all the doubts can be about just communication styles. Fights definitely spring out of differing styles of communication and the different styles of communication can definitely become the topic of a fight - but to me there needs to be another trigger somewhere. An issue or a need that triggers all the miscommunication in the first place.

 

That's why I keep coming back to this topic. I wonder if there isn't something else, buried deep down somewhere, which is triggering your need for a particular kind of communication.

 

I notice that he willingly admits he's a poor communicator and I'm wondering if that's not blinding you from trying to assess what you contribute to the miscommunications.

 

I have doubts in past relationships and have also had partners doubt the relationships themselves. With ex ex, communication did become the main issue - but there was another major underlying issue. We fought a lot and I was the one who couldn't handle our continual conflicts. I wasn't used to fighting in relationships. I found fights emotionally draining and it came to a point where I said: "I can't do this anymore. Either we change how we communicate or we think about breaking up". There was an underlying control issue in our relationship which was at the chore of all the miscommunications. I won't bore you with the details - basically we were sexually incompatible and this caused him to be insecure - but he was unable to communicate about it.

 

When I expressed my doubts about our communications style, he said : "it's normal for couples to fight". But the thing was that, to me, it wasn't normal to fight in the way we fought. When we fought, I felt belittled, vulnerable, controlled. I felt disempowered. Not to mention, I had never been in a relationship where we fought so much. To give you an example, I don't think current bf and I ever fought. We've had issues, I've been upset about stuff, but we've never fought.

 

We managed to improve communication enough that we could start communicating about the bigger issue. But it never fully got resolved and explains why we eventually broke up (a year later).

 

I guess that experience is why I keep digging to see if there aren't deeper insecurities/needs that aren't being addressed and that are causing your needs for a different kind of communication.

 

And if you do decide to give him a second chance, make sure it's a real one. It sounds to me like you might exercise a lot of control in this relationship, if only by virtue of being the "better" communicator. If you give him a second chance, make sure you have it in you to forgive him and keep the lines of communication open (ie, no "you have to make it up to me" bs). Right now you would both be having doubts and seeing if it's possible to rebuild from the dust.

[zengirl]

That's why I keep coming back to this topic. I wonder if there isn't something else, buried deep down somewhere, which is triggering your need for a particular kind of communication.

 

Our needs pretty much always align (this is not to say we never disagree on moods/what we want to do/restaurants/etc; but we don't fight about those things) once we hash out the communications. But by then there is the stress from hashing it out. I don't care about the hashing things out. HE does. He doesn't like the fighting to the point where it stresses him out and gives him doubts and makes him withdraw. And by "fighting" I mean, any time we have a miscommunication or need to hash things out. I imagine it could be about some oversensitivity to stress or disagreements with loved ones on his part, as he is more avoidant than I, but that again, is a communication issue. So, yeah, that's all I've got: communication issues.

 

I cannot think of anything deeper beyond the trust issues that interlock with communication. We are sexually compatible. We are intellectually compatible. We are sometimes not emotionally compatible, but that is usually during the fighting (after more than before), because the fighting damages his trust and causes the doubts/stress (which he blames on me) and doubts/blaming damage MY trust and cause more fighting. It becomes cyclical.

 

To give you an example, I don't think current bf and I ever fought. We've had issues, I've been upset about stuff, but we've never fought.

 

I consider anytime someone is upset or has an issue a fight, as does my boyfriend. So, I'm not sure the different. A "fight" to me is any bad feeling in a relationship that is discussed openly.

Edited February 27, 2011 by zengirl

[Ms. Joolie]

We are sometimes not emotionally compatible, but that is usually during the fighting (after more than before), because the fighting damages his trust and causes the doubts/stress (which he blames on me) and doubts/blaming damage MY trust and cause more fighting. It becomes cyclical.

 

This is it. This is it right here. Unless this is picked apart and resolved it won't be.

 

Is this a pattern in your relationships?

[zengirl]

This is it. This is it right here. Unless this is picked apart and resolved it won't be.

 

Is this a pattern in your relationships?

 

No. I don't know if it's a pattern in his --- though I do know he's prone to overthinking and withdrawing in his relationships, but when we met he said he didn't want that to be an issue with us and wanted us to communicate about everything, that he wanted to make sure and keep me happy. A nice thought but maybe not as true now as it was in the first flush.

 

Though, yes, I am used to emotional compatibility being fluctuating in the beginning, by which I mean it taking time to fall in love. To me emotional compatibility = love (the emotional aspects, when coupled with intellectual and physical compatibilities, which we have). I think love is something that ebbs and flows and evolves somewhere in this period before becoming a permanent fixture of a relationship. I don't think it's healthy to rush headfirst into love or the emotional sides of a relationship.

 

Though I think it's normal to feel emotional distance and have emotional compatibility feel ebbed after a fight, even later in the relationship. It takes time to feel "connected" again.

[Kamille]

 

We are sometimes not emotionally compatible, but that is usually during the fighting (after more than before), because the fighting damages his trust and causes the doubts/stress (which he blames on me) and doubts/blaming damage MY trust and cause more fighting. It becomes cyclical.

 

I agree with Miss Joolie, there's something to unwind there. Where is the blame coming from? What else is he trying to communicate by blaming you?

 

 

 

 

I consider anytime someone is upset or has an issue a fight, as does my boyfriend. So, I'm not sure the different. A "fight" to me is any bad feeling in a relationship that is discussed openly.

 

Really... Why? Perhaps a change in perspective in this regard might help you improve your communication?

 

I don't know your or his communication style, but to me there's a huge difference between saying: "honey, I get restless when we spend the whole weekend staying in. How about we each take turns planning weekends out?" and a fight (that's just a random example from my own relationship). Yes, I did have an issue - but it didn't turn into a fight. All I had to do was communicate a need.

 

Either one or two things is going on:

 

1) He can't handle any form of criticism. This would suggest he's a perfectionist and feels like he's failing when you're not perfectly happy all the time.

 

2) You could both learn to address issues and negative emotions in assertive (positive) ways.

[Ms. Joolie]

Okay, so here's the picture of the emotional compatibility being thrown off in your relationship:

 

X HAPPENS

|

|

|

 

You communicate.

He withdraws and over-analyzes.

|

|

|

You become frustrated and think he's not enough.

He becomes worried, has doubts, thinks he's not enough.

 

 

Note: Another hot word in your post is "fight". You call your communication "fighting" and that, I'm afraid, is how he is hearing it.

[zengirl]

I agree with Miss Joolie, there's something to unwind there. Where is the blame coming from? What else is he trying to communicate by blaming you?

 

He doesn't "blame" me as much as "blame" the relationship, which is, well, him and me, and he's stuck with himself. It's not like he says, "This is your fault." Instead he says, "Maybe we're not compatible" at the first sign of trouble, making it a fault (an incompatibility) rather than something to work with.

 

I don't know your or his communication style, but to me there's a huge difference between saying: "honey, I get restless when we spend the whole weekend staying in. How about we each take turns planning weekends out?"

 

That wouldn't be a good example for us. To me saying, "Hey, can we do this" isn't a fight because it's a solution. If I give him a solution that is concete, he's fine. If I want his ideas or HIM to do any work in coming up with any solutions, even work for himself, that's where we have issues. I'm talking about speaking to problems where I don't already have a potential solution, where I want us to find one together. That's a fight/conflict. I'm talking about where the solutions between the two parties aren't fully realized yet and communicating on that level.

 

Okay, so here's the picture of the emotional compatibility being thrown off in your relationship:

 

X HAPPENS

|

|

|

 

You communicate.

He withdraws and over-analyzes.

|

|

|

You become frustrated and think he's not enough.

He becomes worried, has doubts, thinks he's not enough.

 

 

 

Note: Another hot word in your post is "fight". You call your communication "fighting" and that, I'm afraid, is how he is hearing it.

 

 

 

I never thought he was not enough until the recent breakup. And yes, I feel the communication is a fight because it creates conflict. Even if I don't mean something as a fight, if my SO takes offense to it, I will retroactively consider it a fight. I think he and I are both too empathetic sometimes and play too much off the emotions of each other. If I am stressed, even not about him, he is stressed, and vice versa. I try to fight this instinct, but he does not. So, when it's him playing off my stress, it's worse.

[Kamille]

 

X HAPPENS

|

|

|

 

You communicate.

He withdraws and over-analyzes.

|

|

|

 

He becomes worried, has doubts, thinks he's not enough.

 

 

 

 

Amended to reflect what you are telling us.

 

What of it? what if his doubts were about him doubting that he has the capacity to be the man you need, the man who can make you happy in the long run?

[zengirl]

Amended to reflect what you are telling us.

 

What of it? what if his doubts were about him doubting that he has the capacity to be the man you need, the man who can make you happy in the long run?

 

That's not what he's said, though certainly possible. He said it made him feel we were not compatible and he wants to find and be married/have kids/etc and just wasn't sure if that's someplace we could go.

 

And anyway, if those doubts lead to him checking out of the relationship, does it matter what they are? I cannot change his psychology or his doubts. So, I guess if we start again, I just feel I'm in an uncertain spot.

 

To a degree, it's self-protection. This break-up hurt, but I could go on. Wouldn't it be much worse later?

 

To a degree, it's pride. How stupid would I be to get into the same situation twice with this guy? How pathetic will I look? I could ignore the pride, if it weren't for the logical self-protection above, though.

 

I'd be willing to start again, but only if I could see what could be different. I know some of the mistakes I made (reacting out of stress, pushing at the wrong times) but none were really all that major. I don't want to tiptoe around, walking on eggshells, to keep a guy, even one I really like. I want to feel secure. Part of me says that the fact that he is back so quickly is a good sign, but part of me says nothing has changed.

[Ms. Joolie]

And yes, I feel the communication is a fight because it creates conflict.

 

There is a whole world there of you creating conflict and causing a fight.

 

 

Even if I don't mean something as a fight, if my SO takes offense to it, I will retroactively consider it a fight. I think he and I are both too empathetic sometimes and play too much off the emotions of each other. If I am stressed, even not about him, he is stressed, and vice versa. I try to fight this instinct, but he does not. So, when it's him playing off my stress, it's worse.

 

I am soo going to pick on you! You are such a fighter! lol

[zengirl]

There is a whole world there of you creating conflict and causing a fight.

 

I am soo going to pick on you! You are such a fighter! lol

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you even mean here.

[Kamille]

That's not what he's said, though certainly possible.

 

 

You know him best. He said the fighting made him doubt the relationship. The fighting in and on its own is triggering something in him. Is he a perfectionist? Does he show signs that he thinks he has to excel at everything he does?

 

It's been my experience that a lot of men (generally the ones I consider worth my time) feel an inner pressure to make their partner happy. The thing is, they don't express it the same way we do - and probably aren't even aware of it. But when their relationship is failing, they feel like they're failing. When their partner keeps bringing up the same issue and expressing disatisfaction, they feel like they're failing. Just something to think about, which might give you insight into why the fighting made him doubt your relationship.

 

He said it made him feel we were not compatible and he wants to find and be married/have kids/etc and just wasn't sure if that's someplace we could go.

 

This could be because he was failing his own test of what it means to be in a good relationship, or, even, how to be a good partner in a relationship. I guess what I'm driving at is that maybe he needed to start feeling that yes, you did think he was doing a good job being your partner, in spite of the communication snafus.

 

 

 

And anyway, if those doubts lead to him checking out of the relationship, does it matter what they are? I cannot change his psychology or his doubts. So, I guess if we start again, I just feel I'm in an uncertain spot.

 

Just suggestions. No you can't change his psychology, but you can make room for the validation he might need. You can give him more affirmations that he does make you happy. You can lead those "fights" with the affirmation that you are indeed happy in the relationship.

 

To a degree, it's self-protection. This break-up hurt, but I could go on. Wouldn't it be much worse later?

 

If it gets worse, then you gracefully bow out. You don't sound like the kind of women who would stick around an unhealthy relationship for long anyway.

 

Only you can decide if you can get over the feeling of betrayal and hurt you experienced.

 

I think, though, that if you do decide to give him a second chance, you need to figure out if there's anything you can do differently. I think you both need to come to a compromise, not just him. "From now on, I will do this one thing differently when we communicate about differences in our relationship." Maybe having that "go to" technique will keep you both from falling into the same destructive thought patterns.

 

 

To a degree, it's pride. How stupid would I be to get into the same situation twice with this guy? How pathetic will I look? I could ignore the pride, if it weren't for the logical self-protection above, though.

 

Yes, your ego was hurt by his actions. Your LS id is zen girl however. I'm sure you can see past your ego and into what both you and he would need if this relationship was to continue.

 

I'd be willing to start again, but only if I could see what could be different. I know some of the mistakes I made (reacting out of stress, pushing at the wrong times) but none were really all that major. I don't want to tiptoe around, walking on eggshells, to keep a guy, even one I really like. I want to feel secure. Part of me says that the fact that he is back so quickly is a good sign, but part of me says nothing has changed.

 

I feel like you might be a bit too focused on assigning blame (when I did this it caused him to react like this; he did this and I'm not sure I can forgive him), and not focused enough on if there is anything deeper to your dynamic that could change.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Kamille

[Ms. Joolie]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you even mean here.

 

I just don't get the impression that your ex has been fighting you at all. You have been doing all the fighting.

 

And I don't mean to say that you aren't frustrated, and that you aren't fighting for what you want, but you are fighting and not communicating with him in a way that really works.

 

Like, we all get your fighting! Poor guy.

[zengirl]

You know him best. He said the fighting made him doubt the relationship. The fighting in and on its own is triggering something in him. Is he a perfectionist? Does he show signs that he thinks he has to excel at everything he does?

 

He is ambitious, but not a perfectionist. In terms of feeling like he's failing, I assume that's true. But I did give him affirmations and expressions that he was great and I enjoyed our relationship and such; he is the one who did otherwise. He is the one who made it seem like a bad outcome in a fight could make or break the relationship. I don't feel that way or want to. There was no way in which I was really critical of our relationship or made it out to be "in trouble." He got that from his own mind. His expectations of what our relationship should be likely aren't matching what really happens; I cannot really change that. . .

 

If it gets worse, then you gracefully bow out.

 

This all happened within 1 week. Well, we had some fights prior, but the bad stuff. Less than 1 week. I guess I'm afraid of being left again, not being stuck in a bad relationship. When I was younger, I had a similar pattern with a man who left me and returned (multiple times, though for very different reasons --- he really did not want a relationship with anyone or to be faithful; not the issue here). Being left twice is so much worse than being left once. So, I guess I'd need some type of reason to believe he wouldn't leave again.

 

I think, though, that if you do decide to give him a second chance, you need to figure out if there's anything you can do differently. I think you both need to come to a compromise, not just him. "From now on, I will do this one thing differently when we communicate about differences in our relationship." Maybe having that "go to" technique will keep you both from falling into the same destructive thought patterns.

 

That won't work because it's unromantic and unnatural to him to discuss things like that. He doesn't want all those "rules." And he has issues communicating if he has to censor himself or adjust his style. That's part of where the conflict was in the first place. Anything I do, I just have to do, and I guess I've learned I cannot expect him to communicate any differently.

 

I feel like you might be a bit too focused on assigning blame (when I did this it caused him to react like this; he did this and I'm not sure I can forgive him), and not focused enough on if there is anything deeper to your dynamic that could change.

 

I don't care who is to blame, so much as what has changed. There is nothing deeper that I see on my side. Anything 'deeper' on his side is his stuff, not mine, and I cannot do anything about it. I cannot see what I could really change to make things better, or I would have done it, and he has not expressed a particular need for anything from my side.

[zengirl]

I just don't get the impression that your ex has been fighting you at all. You have been doing all the fighting.

 

And I don't mean to say that you aren't frustrated, and that you aren't fighting for what you want, but you are fighting and not communicating with him in a way that really works.

 

Like, we all get your fighting! Poor guy.

 

He cannot tell me how to communicate with him in a way that works, and I communicate fine with other people. It takes two people to fight. Sometimes we are in what turns out to be a fight later and I'm not even angry or upset with him, but he reacts by saying he's stressed out. Then I know it is a fight, and I try to communicate that I'm not upset---just communicating---but it doesn't matter. The distance is between us again. This is what happened last weekend. I specifically started with, "I'm not upset" and "I'm not blaming you" and he still was 'stressed' and thought it was a fight.

[Ms. Joolie]

He cannot tell me how to communicate with him in a way that works, and I communicate fine with other people. It takes two people to fight. Sometimes we are in what turns out to be a fight later and I'm not even angry or upset with him, but he reacts by saying he's stressed out. Then I know it is a fight, and I try to communicate that I'm not upset---just communicating---but it doesn't matter. The distance is between us again. This is what happened last weekend. I specifically started with, "I'm not upset" and "I'm not blaming you" and he still was 'stressed' and thought it was a fight.

 

But you were upset! And you were blaming him! If it takes two people to fight then you were just beating him up! lol

 

He's just not doing what you want him to do. You want him to see the problems you see. You want him to communicate with you on these problems. You want these problems resolved together.

 

Does he even 'get' the problems? Or are you trying to communicate and resolve something he doesn't see is a problem? I don't know what happens that causes you to want to get to work on the relationship, but it's making me wonder.

 

 

If there are real problems in the relationship, and he really doesn't want to work with you on them, if he really withdraws when you need him to step up...

 

it's a good thing you chose to break up.

 

 

I'm just having trouble seeing whether you were nit-picking and fighting in the relationship or there were real problems. I think he is having doubts because he didn't see the problems, only you talking/fighting about them.

[zengirl]

I'm just having trouble seeing whether you were nit-picking and fighting in the relationship or there were real problems. I think he is having doubts because he didn't see the problems, only you talking/fighting about them.

 

I just don't think your assessment here is accurate here. There are not relationship problems that we fight about. It was ALWAYS a difference in meanings --- he meant one thing, I thought he meant another. That requires discussing and talking out. Because it caused conflict, and stressed him out, and felt like work to him, I call that a fight. I was not nitpicking. We would both be affected by these miscommunication. If anything, he got more stressed and made a bigger deal of them than I did.

 

The only "problem" I ever brought up was that we didn't seem to communicate well at certain times and understand each other. He acknowledged this as well. He didn't have any idea how he or I could change. I tried to do my part, but could not do it all alone. Then, after a stressful weekend, he expressed doubts, and kaput. It's not like we were fighting for weeks or months on end.

[zengirl]

I was also surprised by how nonchalant you seem about this breakup, and also how easily he threatened the nuclear option. I realize emotional regulation is part of your zen lifestyle, but it still

doesn’t seem natural. It makes me think your relationship with your

boyfriend ultimately wasn’t that deep, almost as if you guys went

through the motions of being serious. If I had to guess this lack of

depth IS the deeper issue, while the communication is just a symptom.

You said something about him being a menu without the food, and that’s

exactly the sense I get about your relationship. It sounds great on

paper, but something is missing. Why your connection lacked that

depth, I have no clue. Could be some emotional unavailability on his

end, yours, or both.

 

This is just me. I don't get overly emotional about things. I am hurting and sad and frustrated by the breakup. But I'm not going to let that slow me down. What would be the point?

 

Our relationship was not at all lacking in depth.

 

I don't think he is commitment phobic at all. Though I will look into the people-pleaser theory.

 

At any rate, what I'd really like to know is what causes the doubts, to see if I can believe they can be resolved (as he now says they can). Apparently many people have similar doubts. I just don't know if anyone's ever gotten through them successfully. For me, when I have doubts about a relationship, I work through them until I'm sure they're for real, and then I break up, so the fact that we broke up makes me think it's impossible. But I am willing to be openminded.

[Woggle]

He probably got sick of the fighting. If it was over the same things he probably just needed to breathe. He should not have broken up with you but that is probably the only way he felt he good breathe.

[zengirl]

He probably got sick of the fighting. If it was over the same things he probably just needed to breathe. He should not have broken up with you but that is probably the only way he felt he good breathe.

 

I think this is exactly it. Not that we fought that much. Well, we did for awhile ("much" being we had 3 or 4 conflicts in January) but that was awhile back. I think the recent fight just triggered that, along with stress and sickness (he was sick and wouldn't go to the doctor all last week), and he just wanted to step back. He didn't know how to ask me for that space within the relationship, so he started talking doubts and breaks, and we broke up. This is my read.

 

Now, it's great that he is back, but my question really is, "What stops this from happening again?" We are going to fight. People do. And being afraid to fight, or say the wrong thing, or misunderstand him isn't a way I want to live my life. So, does a person ever really change enough to not break up for breathing room again, or will it just be the end of us?

[Kamille]

I think this is exactly it. Not that we fought that much. Well, we did for awhile ("much" being we had 3 or 4 conflicts in January) but that was awhile back. I think the recent fight just triggered that, along with stress and sickness (he was sick and wouldn't go to the doctor all last week), and he just wanted to step back. He didn't know how to ask me for that space within the relationship, so he started talking doubts and breaks, and we broke up. This is my read.

 

Now, it's great that he is back, but my question really is, "What stops this from happening again?" We are going to fight. People do. And being afraid to fight, or say the wrong thing, or misunderstand him isn't a way I want to live my life. So, does a person ever really change enough to not break up for breathing room again, or will it just be the end of us?

 

3 or 4 fights in Jan plus 1 fight in mid-Feb makes for 4-5 fights in 6 or 7 weeks.

 

That is a lot, and I don't think you're doing either of you any justice by disconnecting the January fights from the Feb one, especially if they were about the same thing, ie, you misunderstanding something the he said.

 

On the same lines, you say you don't want to walk on eggshells, or be afraid to fight, yet is it possible he was starting to feel like he had to walk on eggshells for fear of causing a miscommunication?

 

 

There is nothing deeper that I see on my side. Anything 'deeper' on his side is his stuff, not mine, and I cannot do anything about it. I cannot see what I could really change to make things better, or I would have done it, and he has not expressed a particular need for anything from my side.

 

So are you saying that you have done nothing but be the most patient, understanding, non-fight-initiating person in the relationship where he was responsible for 100% of the miscommunications and that he took everything you did the wrong way? Then yes, I agree with you, there is little left to salvage. I somehow don't think that's the whole picture, but that's pretty much how you've presented the demise of the relationship. He is responsible for the miscommunications, he's the one who inadvertently starts fights when you are merely asking for clarifications, he's the one who couldn't tolerate any conflicts and/or miscommunications in your relationship.

[Ms. Joolie]

I just don't think your assessment here is accurate here. There are not relationship problems that we fight about. It was ALWAYS a difference in meanings --- he meant one thing, I thought he meant another.

 

Oh, okay, I get it. Thus the "communication snafu" as you put it. He says X and means Y, you hear X and make it mean Z.

 

Is he misunderstanding what you say, too? Or is this all you misunderstanding him? If it's all you misunderstanding him, he's probably thinking you're crazy. "Geez, she misunderstands me AND wants to fight about it!"