So Concerned About Looking At Porn - Sooooo insecure!!!!

[zarathustra]

I did. Re-read my prior post. It may not be the answer you're seeking . It's all about sexualized symbolism. What's not degrading to you, may be very degrading to someone else.

 

Degradation is from the perspective of the oppressed, not the oppressor.

 

Slave owners in the ante-bellum South thought their slaves were happy on the ole Plantation.

 

Kind of like Sex Tourism...

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by zarathustra

Slave owners in the ante-bellum South thought their slaves were happy on the ole Plantation.

The comparison is not appropriate, because the slaves are DIRECTLY involved in the enslavement. These women are not involved, and therefore I still cannot see how the actions of some women debase the value of women as a whole. (No pun intended )

 

Sometimes a spade is only a spade for people who are playing cards.

[CosmoGirl1391]

Whoa, whoa, you guys, we are getting on a completely different topic, here. This discussion belongs in a seperate thread.

 

The point is simply this - whether or not you think porn degrades women, it still exists, people still look at it, and people will continue to buy it, sell it, make it and watch it. And it a common thing among the majority of men (and women) as part of their natural sex lives. It's really not as much of a big deal as some of you people are making it out to be.

[jenny]

excepting 'guest,' i think you are preaching to the choir here.

[zarathustra]

excepting 'guest,' i think you are preaching to the choir here

 

Amen to that, Sisiter Jenny!

[End of my rope]

That's a good point, guest. But it's not just porn that degrades women. THe degration of women is all in our society ranging from what we see on primetime television to the workforce to the fact that we've never had a woman president. The degration of women has always existed, and I don't see it going away any time soon.

 

And there are pornos out there that focus on men as well. What about Playgirl magazine? Or gay flicks that just feature men? It's not just women in pornos.

 

You did make a good point, but when you look at all thee above, it's not anything new.

 

All of this just shows the level of moral decline our country is in. If a woman refuses to accept the presense of porn in her home or her relationships she's called insecure and told if she doesn't like it to leave the "bum". If you're just dating then perhaps that is the awnser. However when you're emotionally attatched to someone it isn't quite that simple. My finace and I had some issues over the whole porn delima and have since worked through them. The key is compromise.

 

I don't personally condone porn, and no CosmoGirl, it isn't because I'm insecure about myself. As a matter of fact it's quiet the opposite. I find your generalized view of why some women find porn offensive to be narrow minded. I refuse to have porn shoved down my throat (no pun intended) and be told that I have to accept the presense of porn in my life just because "it's something men do" or because society on whole seems to accept moral degredation.

[TazmaGurl]

Extremely well said, End-of-my-rope.

 

quoting cosmogirl -- "The point is simply this - whether or not you think porn degrades women, it still exists, people still look at it, and people will continue to buy it, sell it, make it and watch it."

 

So, wether or not you think rascism(for example) degrades certain individuals, people still do it, it still exists and we should disregard the effect it puts into our society and our youth?

 

Your saying things that exist and are out there are not worth worrying or talking about. This train of thought is (in my opinion) what will bring on the downfall of us all. Perhaps we as one person cannot change the world or even minorly effect it, but if we all shut up and say "eh. what the flip. whatever" how many more ploys and money-making industrys will continue to degrade us for a new way to make money? This week lets advertise plastic surgery right after the 2 hour "Girls gone wild" special. We never thought we "needed" to fill our bodys with plastic to make ourselves "feel" like we are something. But somehow 3000$ operations are second nature and talked about as something that you can and should do if you don't feel beautiful. (I heard advertisements for plastic surgery gift certificates for valentines day.... WTF?)

 

The huge problem I have with porn is that theres nothing "normal" in it anymore. I tryed to look for anything that remotely ressembled my husband and I's sexual relationship and I found nothing even close -- and we are fairly wild in bed.

 

Basicly, soft porn isn't good anymore, hard porn isn't good anymore, kinky porn isn't good anymore, violent porn... well... thats good for now, but tomorrow it won't be good anymore. Lets add 5 more females, that might make him hard... then we'll have to throw in a cow to make him cum.

 

Porn escalates, and so will the mans expectations of sex when he has reached the point where theres not enough left in porn for him.

 

It has alot to do with insecurity, yes. But its also so much more that men seem to forget, blaming women for our insecuritys and telling us that "Its healthy and normal" because they hear that if they give in we are "controlling them" and they don't feel like the man of the house anymore simply because they love their wife enough to listen and respect her feelings about something that they like and don't want to give up.

 

I realize I am talking about the worse case scenerio. But anything that CAN be that bad and that escalates like porn does is not something I will be comfortable with in my household.

 

My husband asking me if he can watch porn hurts as much as asking me "Hey, hon... mind if I sniff this cocaine? I'm just curious"

 

Tazmagurl

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by TazmaGurl

quoting cosmogirl -- "The point is simply this - whether or not you think porn degrades women, it still exists, people still look at it, and people will continue to buy it, sell it, make it and watch it."

 

So, wether or not you think rascism(for example) degrades certain individuals, people still do it, it still exists and we should disregard the effect it puts into our society and our youth?

When someone is a racist, they attack another. When someone uses porn, they're availing it to THEMSELVES. Some women *react* to this as if they've been attacked, but they have not. Let's call a spade a spade.

The huge problem I have with porn is that theres nothing "normal" in it anymore. I tryed to look for anything that remotely ressembled my husband and I's sexual relationship and I found nothing even close -- and we are fairly wild in bed.

This is like the "there's no porn for women" kind of thing. The fact that you can't find 'normal' porn is only indicitive of your inability to look for it, not of its nonexistence.

Porn escalates, and so will the mans expectations of sex when he has reached the point where theres not enough left in porn for him.

A man who healthily uses porn completely seperates porn and sex, therefore this point is just plain wrong. Why don't you follow Merry's advice and listen to the MEN who are telling you what role porn plays in their lives. Not your wild shot-in-the-dark guesses, but what they're actually saying.

It has alot to do with insecurity, yes. But its also so much more that men seem to forget, blaming women for our insecuritys and telling us that "Its healthy and normal" because they hear that if they give in we are "controlling them" and they don't feel like the man of the house anymore simply because they love their wife enough to listen and respect her feelings about something that they like and don't want to give up.

If you equate 'respect for feelings' with 'changing behavior' instead of 'attempting communication'-You ARE partially to blame. Did you catch my thread on emotional blackmail?

[TazmaGurl]

"When someone is a racist, they attack another. When someone uses porn, they're availing it to THEMSELVES. Some women *react* to this as if they've been attacked, but they have not. Let's call a spade a spade. "

 

Not all racists attack one another. Most its just in their minds, they scowl or think badly of others based on race. The attacks come from severe cases, just like rape and sexual abuse can come from severe cases of porn addiction or escalated viewing of porn and not being able to control themselves.

 

I have tried accepting porn as "normal" I have made to feel bad about denying it as part of me and my husbands relationship. It doesn't work, I can't allow it and feel normal. I tried really hard.

 

I'm tired of blaming myself for this stuff, and having others blame me for this stuff. And tired of fighting with it. Which is more important to him?

 

If its around, I'm not. And I won't let anyone make me feel bad about the WAY I FEEL anymore!

 

Tazmagurl

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by TazmaGurl

Which is more important to him?

Who created that choice?

[TazmaGurl]

Its a choice that most people can't put down because people who like porn are so scared to stop viewing it that they rationalize their lust for it. Even if it means completely disregarding the effort their spouse is putting in place to try and accept it.

 

Is porn really so sacred that its worth all this effort I have put in and all the pain it has caused me? And no, its not me who caused this pain... cause it if was it wouldn't be such a common problem among women. Porn has been a hatred of mine since I was young, and I feel it covers more then just me being insecure. I find its a downward spiral, like any other drug. This was part of me before I met him, before we started dating and before we got married. And he knew it too.

 

So why then should he try to change me, since your accusing me of trying to change him? or emotionally blackmailing him?

 

It doesn't really matter, I don't expect anyone to understand. The worlds so corrupt, and trying to rationalize and explain my feelings is too much effort to those who couldn't possibly fathom what it feels like to me.

 

Having my speach derailed and attacked has actually angered me. Its not anyones fault. I just can't beleive I've gotten so emotional trying to explain my right to my own feelings.

 

Tazmagurl

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by TazmaGurl

Its a choice that most people can't put down because people who like porn are so scared to stop viewing it that they rationalize their lust for it. Even if it means completely disregarding the effort their spouse is putting in place to try and accept it.

The answer I was looking for was, "I did, I created that choice"--You created the choice, either you or porn. I'm not holding that against you, you have every right to LAY DOWN THE LAW in your relationship. But don't claim it's a matter of respecting feelings or qualifying love. It's simply a choice, that you created for him, and now it's your duty to assess his decision, and follow through with the consequences that you created.

Is porn really so sacred that its worth all this effort I have put in and all the pain it has caused me? And no, its not me who caused this pain... cause it if was it wouldn't be such a common problem among women.

Argumentum ad numerum. You must take responsibility for your feelings, or you are being unfair.

So why then should he try to change me, since your accusing me of trying to change him? or emotionally blackmailing him?

He should not try to change you, you have every right to make 'rules' for your relationship--but DON'T accuse him of disrespecting you when he breaches a choice that YOU CREATED FOR HIM.

I just can't beleive I've gotten so emotional trying to explain my right to my own feelings.

No one challenged your right to have your own feelings, but it's destructive behavior to make your feelings another person's responsibility.

[TazmaGurl]

Its my opinion that its more destructive to allow these kind of woman-degrading sexual-numbing influences in the household then it is incorperating self-control into a relationship.

 

"But don't claim it's a matter of respecting feelings or qualifying love."

 

So you don't think its a matter of respect to their spouses feelings that men give up their precious pornography (which is, from peoples words, "no big deal" -- if it really was no big deal then why is it such a huge debate? and why is it such a problem not doing it?) You don't think that his love for me would prevent him from wanting to see me curled up in a ball on the floor sobbing and crying because of an irresistable urge to view naked woman and fantasizing about screwing disgusting, easy, disease ridden wh*res? You don't think that something that creates such trouble in my life, that makes me cry so much... you don't think that love would be the reason he should WANT to stop it all?

 

"It's simply a choice, that you created for him"

 

Its something I can not defeat. Its not really a choice. Its a need. A request that he not grab onto my heart and throw it into a wall shattering it into a million and one peices. A request that his love conquer his penis. And if he loves me, he will honor that request. If he doesn't, it shows that he can't be the man he promised me he was when we got married.

 

This pain is not my fault. I've spent enough time trying to derail myself and find the source to kill it. Since I can't, I ask that the love my husband has for me be strong enough not to continuously stab me. And it has been. But I don't want to be told that its not normal (much less destructive) and that I am to blame for depriving him. That "when" he decides to break a choice (need) that I have that he is not to blame for his actions. That I am? for creating that choice (need)?

 

...

 

If you truely think that there should not be expectations and emotional needs in a marriage, that men should really be free to get off to whatever new 2D bitch holds their interest this week, then I really don't know what else to say.

 

Tazmagurl

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by TazmaGurl

Its my opinion that its more destructive to allow these kind of woman-degrading sexual-numbing influences in the household then it is incorperating self-control into a relationship.

Break down the etymology of "SELF-CONTROL"--you'll notice that the first part is 'self', and the second part is 'control'. It's a logical conclusion that, when you incorporate self-control into a relationship, you're CONTROLling yourSELF. But, seeing as how the issue is with your mate's use of it, and not yours, self-control has nothing to do with it.

 

So you don't think its a matter of respect to their spouses feelings that men give up their precious pornography (which is, from peoples words, "no big deal" -- if it really was no big deal then why is it such a huge debate? and why is it such a problem not doing it?) You don't think that his love for me would prevent him from wanting to see me curled up in a ball on the floor sobbing and crying because of an irresistable urge to view naked woman and fantasizing about screwing disgusting, easy, disease ridden wh*res? You don't think that something that creates such trouble in my life, that makes me cry so much... you don't think that love would be the reason he should WANT to stop it all?

YOU made it an issue of love. YOU use love as a weapon. That's pure emotional blackmail. Why couldn't he say the same thing? If you loved him, why couldn't you let this occur? By not respecting his desire for porn during self-pleasure, aren't you disrespecting his feelings? That's EXACTLY why love and respect should not be used to circumvent communication, and you're guilty of it. Many people are blind to this dysfunction, I'm not.

 

YOU refuse to take responsibility for your feelings. So now, YOU must be prepared to follow through with it. By all means, leave this guy if you can't handle porn. But do not pretend you are a victim of his personal choice, a choice that YOU articulated.

"It's simply a choice, that you created for him"

 

Its something I can not defeat. Its not really a choice. Its a need. A request that he not grab onto my heart and throw it into a wall shattering it into a million and one peices. A request that his love conquer his penis. And if he loves me, he will honor that request. If he doesn't, it shows that he can't be the man he promised me he was when we got married.

You're using the idea of love to manipulate him into succumbing to your desires.

This pain is not my fault. I've spent enough time trying to derail myself and find the source to kill it. Since I can't, I ask that the love my husband has for me be strong enough not to continuously stab me. And it has been. But I don't want to be told that its not normal (much less destructive) and that I am to blame for depriving him. That "when" he decides to break a choice (need) that I have that he is not to blame for his actions. That I am? for creating that choice (need)?

That's the whole point, EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions and feelings.

 

He's responsible for looking at porn. You're responsible for being hurt by it. You're responsible for creating the choice "ME or PORN", and he's responsible for MAKING that choice.

If you truely think that there should not be expectations and emotional needs in a marriage...

It's not the expectation, it's the fact that you qualify your demands with 'love' and 'respect', which is a form of manipulation.

[TazmaGurl]

I am done with this conversation.

 

I don't see it that way at all. Maybe thats the reason so many marriages fail these days, we're giving reasoning and excuses to infedelity and blaming the pained for feeling hurt by it.

 

 

Thats just sick.

 

 

Tazmagurl

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by TazmaGurl

Maybe thats the reason so many marriages fail these days, we're giving reasoning and excuses to infedelity and blaming the pained for feeling hurt by it.

I believe the reason marriages are failing in America is because they marry only for what they think is love. When the initial blind wonderlove wears off, issues appear. When the issues don't resolve themselves, they see the inability to resolve the issue as a lack of love (re-read your posts, this is what you did). With what they see as the lack of love, and a refusal to take responsibility for ANY issue, they see as grounds for termination of the marriage.

 

Using love as a weapon, manipulating people and passing it off as 'respect for feelings' is equally disgusting to me.

 

You'll notice in countries where marriages are arranged, there isn't a high divorce rate. Perhaps if there was no initial blind wonderlove, it's harder for people to justify their manipulation with that emotion

 

Oh, and yes, I noticed that you replaced 'porn' with the word 'infidelity', but I'm too exhausted to argue semantics with you. I'll just clarify that I have a lot more sympathy for a spouse that deals with infidelity, especially if he or she takes a definitive stance--that is MUTUALLY works to repair a damaged relationship, or terminates the relationship.

[zarathustra]

That's the whole point, EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions and feelings.

 

He's responsible for looking at porn. You're responsible for being hurt by it. You're responsible for creating the choice "ME or PORN", and he's responsible for MAKING that choice.

 

WTF? If we're all responsible, both porn victim and porn perp, then no one's responsible. This "ethic of responsibility" is absolutely unworkable in any recognizable adult relationship. Under the "reasoning" of this perp-centric "moral equivalence" argument, a porn-victimized spouse is equally at fault has her pornboy hubby, who likes to watch kiddie tapes and barnyard banging. That's a very weird "ethic."

 

Using love as a weapon, manipulating people and passing it off as 'respect for feelings' is equally disgusting to me.

 

Perhaps love borne expectations are "disgusting" to you, dyer, but if there's no mutuality of obligation, compromise, give-and-take and respect , then there's no adult relationship. A relationship minus respect is what is really disgusting.

[dyermaker]

Zara, though the path may change it's course, rivers always reach the sea. You may change your name now and then, but the song remains the same. (I'll stop now )

 

I never made this a moral equivalency issue. I am NOT saying that females have no right to ban porn in their relationship, they have EVERY right to set boundaries.

 

The argument that people, including you, refuse to address, is that it's totally destructive to qualify the inability to meet demands as a lack of love or a disrespect for feelings. It's delusional, and it's no wonder so many people find themselves in troubled relationships.

[meanon]

What is a delusion? A false impresssion, a form of madness. If someone says that their partner's behaviour is harming them you have to consider the basis on which they make that statement. Some, not all, of the people who post on this site about porn make considered, cogent arguments for why their partner's porn use harms them. It is a reasonable expectation that such views are not dismissed as delusional.

 

It is destructive to equate behaviour we find offensive to a lack of love, but equally a failure to consider and respond to a reasonable but differing perspective on an issue is disrespectful and damaging within the context of a relationship.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by meanon

Some, not all, of the people who post on this site about porn make considered, cogent arguments for why their partner's porn use harms them. It is a reasonable expectation that such views are not dismissed as delusional.

I always find that the considered, cogent arguments consist of people taking responsibility for their actions, and they often focus more on the deception after the fact. They're also detached of the emotional blackmail I mentioned earlier.

It is destructive to equate behaviour we find offensive to a lack of love, but equally a failure to consider and respond to a reasonable but differing perspective on an issue is disrespectful and damaging within the context of a relationship.

I did not mean to dismiss such views as delusional, the delusion--the form of madness, the false impression--is that the accountability for an issue lies solely on one person.

[meanon]

I did not mean to dismiss such views as delusional, the delusion--the form of madness, the false impression--is that the accountability for an issue lies solely on one person.

 

Well - madness is pretty strong (let's not get into my Blue Hat = infidelity argument again! ) but I agree that as everyone has an entirely legitimate point of view, any discussion would have to be on the basis of mutual respect and accountability.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by meanon

Well - madness is pretty strong.

As Moi would say, "Wretch!"

 

I was quoting you:

 

"What is a delusion? A false impresssion, a form of madness"

[gypsygem]

[color=blue]

your cool, you are not like the majority of chicks.

[/color]

 

My ex boyfriend caught me on the internet looking at men with big D$&%s. He got really insecure about it and kept asking me if I thought his "significant other" was big enough for me. It got to the point where he was so insecure about it, that he was afraid to have sex with me, because he though that because I was looking at porn on the internet, I must want to be with those guys and not him. It was a complete turn-off to me, and I had to end the relationship...I don't like insecure guys.

 

So, am I coooooool too?!

 

 

Gypsy.... [color=red]

Those who hear not the music, think the dancers mad!

[/color]

[zarathustra]

He should not try to change you, you have every right to make 'rules' for your relationship--but DON'T accuse him of disrespecting you when he breaches a choice that YOU CREATED FOR HIM.

 

If a spouse has every "right" to make relationship rules, as you contend, then why, on God's green earth, is the the rule-making spouse not permitted the "right" to feel disrespected when the rule-violating spouse tells her, by his disobedience, to go fu*k herself? Why are her feelings, her emotions , her expectations, delegitimized? Why is she being invalidated? What did she do but insist that her pornboy hubby stop jacking off to porn tarts at 4am. What's her crime?

 

Also, most adults, mature ones anyway, do not have choices "CREATED" by their partners. There's usually discussion, dialogue, all sorts of visual and aural clues that tell one that his spouse deeply feels and believes that certain behavior is a deal breaker. Then, out of respect and love and the desire to do no harm, hubby (in this case) adjusts his behavior. Marriage is not usually boot camp--with the wife as DI. Nor is it a classroom, with the wife as teacher.

 

Porn , as I have said before, is the marital WMD. Porn fanboy husbands, not the victim spouses, are the real problem.

[Darkangelism]

Originally posted by gypsygem

[color=blue][/color]

 

My ex boyfriend caught me on the internet looking at men with big D$&%s. He got really insecure about it and kept asking me if I thought his "significant other" was big enough for me. It got to the point where he was so insecure about it, that he was afraid to have sex with me, because he though that because I was looking at porn on the internet, I must want to be with those guys and not him. It was a complete turn-off to me, and I had to end the relationship...I don't like insecure guys.

 

So, am I coooooool too?!

 

 

Gypsy.... [color=red][/color]

 

 

of course.