confusedinkansas Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 If a relationship is that bad then leave. Oh but if life were that simple....black & white...we'd all be much happier but alas it is not. I for one know that there are many gray areas & Just Packin' It Up & Leavin' a relationship is NOT NOT NOT an easy task & OMG.......on occasion IMPOSSIBLE! I'm not sure what some of you believe - but obviously those that say "Well Just Chuck It" "Pack It In" "Leave" ....... I'm going to guess many have never attempted leaving a LONG TERM marriage. Just guessin' here.
Author Woggle Posted February 23, 2011 Author Posted February 23, 2011 You say it is not easy but I guess adding an affair which makes things much more difficult is a good way to fix things.
StoneCold Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I'm not sure what some of you believe - but obviously those that say "Well Just Chuck It" "Pack It In" "Leave" ....... I'm going to guess many have never attempted leaving a LONG TERM marriage. Just guessin' here. They live in a dream world... and even if you do leave they fail to realize that its not an overnight process.
StoneCold Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I think you're living in a dream world (although that would be fun). It's not an overnight process for some cheaters to screw someone else and lie at the drop of a hat in their spouse's face. whats your point?
donnamaybe Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 c'mon Donna... you are a little wacky yes... but you're smarter than that You're right. I am smarter than that. Thus, I wouldn't play some game of semantics around something as important as keeping a promise as big as fidelity. Marriage no good? Fix ir or leave it. If you cheat, the choice was yours. If you feel the need to lie to enable you to cheat, then you are a liar. Lying is good? No. Pretty simple.
Stateandbroadway Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I honestly think that some people get off on the lying, dishonesty and sneaking around. They find it exciting. If a person gets kicks off of treating a person like that then in my book they are a sociopath. Cheating is not the only activity that could be labeled sociopathic or narcissistic. You could be "pure as the driven snow" and either of those things. I had an affair. My husband and I saw 3 counselors before we settled on the one we now have that we BOTH like. All three implied my husband lacks EMPAHTY….among other things. This is something I have been saying for years. Whenever I would try to speak about this, he would tell me to stop acting like a psychologist. Lack of empathy is one of MANY emotional issues my husband has that were quite painful to experience. Let me correct myself. Not only were they unbelievably painful, but if I had one extra screw loose at the time, I would have killed myself. That's how painful my experience was. Lack of empathy is the HALLMARK of sociopathy and narcissism. The first counselor we saw - who I went back and saw alone - told me my husband exhibits "Intense defense mechanisms, anger management issues and highly narcissistic traits." The Psychologist/marriage counselor that we are presently seeing has pointed out my husband’s lack of empathy and other traits many times. He is the professor of PSYCHOLOGY- not just a counselor who has authored books on the subject. A large part of his practice is dedicated to narcissism and other personality disorders. If you've read about pathological narcissism you know that trauma can bring these qualities out and really turn the volume up on them. My husband and I had something catastrophic occurring in our lives. I would have been able to mentally handle this if period of intense abuse and emotional abandonment whilst our lives were disintegrating lasted 1 year. I’m not a complete weakling. But by year 2.5 I was an emotional mess. Thankfully, we finally have a therapist who is a man (therefore my husband doesn’t feel ganged up on) who knows how to talk to us and who knows how to talk to my husband in a way that allow the things to sink in without his defenses going up immediately. While cheating is wrong, it certainly does not presume sociopathy. There are tons of non-cheating sociopaths and narcissists out there. These traits could just as easily apply to the WS or the BS.
neveragain1 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I'm not sure what some of you believe - but obviously those that say "Well Just Chuck It" "Pack It In" "Leave" ....... I'm going to guess many have never attempted leaving a LONG TERM marriage. Just guessin' here. then you are guessing wrong. I left a long term marriage because of her cheating. was it easy, no. but staying would have been harder emotionally.
neveragain1 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 They live in a dream world... and even if you do leave they fail to realize that its not an overnight process. nobody that leaves expects it to be an overnight process. I weighed the options, short term divorce hell for peace of mind the rest of my life or by staying married, a lifetime hell to save myself the short term hassle.
seren Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I don't think that most cheaters are sociopaths, in my working life, I worked with and counselled diagnosed sociopaths - now that is very challenging. I think that all A's are different, with many and varied 'reasons' for cheating. Having said that, I don't think, IMO, that any situation is a valid reason to lie and cheat to someone who is led to believe that the life they are sharing with you is based on a shared understanding of what the rules or boundaries are. I am not talking marriage vows, but the boundaries they both have decided and agreed are right for them. I agree with those who have recognised that not all relationships are working in the run up to the A, I also agree that cheating is not the way to solve those. For the people who say it isn't easy to leave a marriage, well I left 2 marriages, one because we married too young and amicably parted, the other because the XH was not a good father. I left with a small baby, a suitcase in a foriegn country and had to live in a homeless hostel, so no it isn't easy, but it would, for me, be far harder to lie and cheat on someone who believed in me and believed the lies I told in order to do what I wanted. Serial cheaters are, IMO, a different kettle of fish, there seems to be more of an entitlement thing going on, the cheater doesn't consider the consequences of their actions and if they do, they feel that their needs are more important to the person with whom they share their life with, and all the rules and agreements that the life is based upon. Some cheaters are sociopaths, but not all cheaters have sociopathic behaviour.
wheelwright Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I think it an interesting question to wonder whether cheaters are sociopaths. Because basically, everyone I know overlooks in some way the cruelty and suffering their actions cause. Whether to animals - that they eat or steal from. Or to slave labour children who have been involved in the production of chocolate which we all eat. (I don't buy that chocolate, but if out and under peer pressure, I don't make a statement). That's most of the chocolate in production. Oh yes, but we're removed. But so are the WS and OP. They are worlds away. The seratonin is palpable to all who see them. Accusations of fog and limerance. One step removed for human kind seems to mean one step removed from the suffering it causes. Don't give me your rubbish about sociopathy. If an A couple are doing what they do for love, they have a better reason than for any bite of non-fairtraid chocolate you have eaten in the last year. Sociopathy is part of the race. It means doing things that hurt people without feeling the pain of it. We all do it.
seren Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 WW, I get the distance thing for the OP, but the WS is not distanced from the BS, they may be emotionally but not geographically and so to maintain the facade of a marriage, the conscious decisions made to enable the A are taken. But I can also understand the compartmentalising that goes on, otherwise I would imagine it would be all too crazy. The chocolate analogy makes sense, but I never eat eggs or chicken from battery hens, they have to be farmed birds, in some instances I only buy from farms I have visited and know to have good animal husbandry. In that way, I make an informed decision about what I am buying, which has got me thinking about the 'knowing' what goes on or doesn't go on in a marriage and am going off track again. Excuse me please all, I blame the drugs (legal) and the menopause. I think what I recognise as a link to so called sociopathic traits is the disassociation, however, if you have ever met a sociopath it is like looking at a smiling, well functioning shark and no I am not making comparisons, not at all. The sociopath would never, ever feel remorse, many, many WS, OP do, so no, not sociopathinc at all.
wheelwright Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 WW, I get the distance thing for the OP, but the WS is not distanced from the BS, they may be emotionally but not geographically and so to maintain the facade of a marriage, the conscious decisions made to enable the A are taken. But I can also understand the compartmentalising that goes on, otherwise I would imagine it would be all too crazy. The chocolate analogy makes sense, but I never eat eggs or chicken from battery hens, they have to be farmed birds, in some instances I only buy from farms I have visited and know to have good animal husbandry. In that way, I make an informed decision about what I am buying, which has got me thinking about the 'knowing' what goes on or doesn't go on in a marriage and am going off track again. Excuse me please all, I blame the drugs (legal) and the menopause. I think what I recognise as a link to so called sociopathic traits is the disassociation, however, if you have ever met a sociopath it is like looking at a smiling, well functioning shark and no I am not making comparisons, not at all. The sociopath would never, ever feel remorse, many, many WS, OP do, so no, not sociopathinc at all. It's true there may be people who act in a way that their creation of direct suffering does not give them pause, but I think on the whole As are more the indirect suffering, similar to the kind we are aware goes on when we buy a cheap pair of trainers. Though we may have to face it one day. Through documentary perhaps. Some wouldn'd bother to watch - the unremorseful? And in fact, even if you read up on chocolate production, you don't have to feel that bad. Because everyone else is exploiting in that way. The people who talk on this thread about cheaters being sociopaths seem to me cultural judges. There is no backbone to it. And it doesn't surprise me at all that you buy free range eggs!
StoneCold Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Riiiigggghhhttt. So you cheat and you get validation from a biased person who blames your husband for your decision to cheat and now you think your affair was the smart move. What do you do for a living?
Distant78 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Sociopathy is part of the race. It means doing things that hurt people without feeling the pain of it. Nope sociopathy is not apart of me. Can't speak for everyone else though. We all do it. Nope. All of us don't give our partners STDs and unwanted babies and a lifetime of pain.
StoneCold Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 ok thats mature.... explains..... a lot never mind
GG2W Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I am a male erotic dancer, who has a fetish for women wearing wedding rings. Numerous women have shared my bed, it is a nightly experience, and there can be more than one per night and quite often a meeting in the afternoon. Each of their stories are different. Most have children, most love their husbands, but under the right circumstances, club room, filled with other women, alcohol, in a highly sexual atmosphere, with well built younger men, and they get carried away and let it all hang out. In most cases I do not pry into their private lives, but they do leave hints. Some of them have husbands who encourage them to seek sex with other partners to bring home a story. Some of them are living with husbands who suffer from ED. Some of them get caught up in the moment, and relive their youth, or their unfulfilled fantasies, and have no desire to separate from their husbands, who they actually love, and want to remain with. There is no black and white here, in almost every case there are shades of gray. In almost every cases their husband is blissfully unaware that their wifes have stepped over the line. As for divorce, that is not always practible. I have a friend who has endured a sexless marriage for over a decade. To leave the marriage would destroy his children, the wife is a SAHM, and there is no way that he can afford, alimony and child support, on top of paying all of the bills on a second home. So he sees prostitutes several times a year. Think about it men, how long could you go with out sex, one, two or more years, and possibly for the rest of your life, as she is not going to change. As it is he only gets lucky less than half a dozen times a year.
bentnotbroken Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I think it an interesting question to wonder whether cheaters are sociopaths. Because basically, everyone I know overlooks in some way the cruelty and suffering their actions cause. Whether to animals - that they eat or steal from. Or to slave labour children who have been involved in the production of chocolate which we all eat. (I don't buy that chocolate, but if out and under peer pressure, I don't make a statement). That's most of the chocolate in production. Oh yes, but we're removed. But so are the WS and OP. They are worlds away. The seratonin is palpable to all who see them. Accusations of fog and limerance. One step removed for human kind seems to mean one step removed from the suffering it causes. Don't give me your rubbish about sociopathy. If an A couple are doing what they do for love, they have a better reason than for any bite of non-fairtraid chocolate you have eaten in the last year. Sociopathy is part of the race. It means doing things that hurt people without feeling the pain of it. We all do it. I must admit I don't understand most of your posts. But they always seem to generalize your justifications to the rest of the population. Sociapathy isn't a mental illness that is generalizable to most of the population. We all DO NOT do it. I have my issues but being a sociopath isn't one of them. Check out what the DSM has to say about Sociopaths.
confusedinkansas Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 If anyone's seeing black and white, it's you. Divorce is a necessity for many peeps. Necessity? Doesn't always mean that it's feasible. Wow - I'm amazed at folks these days on this site. They toss around the D word as if it's a no brainer! A separation alone can tear a family apart financially & emotionally - On the financial end - Perhaps for those with large houses that they can sell & make a profit & split that profit.....& those with gigantic 401K's that they can dip into....well for those folks the financial I guess isn't an issue. But average Joe & Jane with a mortgage that they CANNOT get out of because of the housing market being in the tank (Unless they file bankruptcy & sign foreclosure docs-there's always a great idea) & credit card bills & a car payment etc.....well as far as the financial part of this goes some may see divorce as a NECESSITY Well it's not ALWAYS the practical answer. Don't get me started on the emotional............& what I speak of comes from ONLY a separation........No Divorce.
confusedinkansas Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Yes it does. When there's cheating involved yes. Lots of folks stay together after an infidelity. (& are better for it) And CHEATING alone can tear apart a family financially & emotionally. I'm sure that's true. Alcohol....not the infidelity nearly tore us apart. So, in my opinion - infidelity is NOT the worst thing that can happen in a marriage. Emotionally & Financially, because of the alcohol - we nearly lost everything. So I'm well aware of financial & emotional drains on marriages. (but that's another thread) Yea let's get started on the emotional of someone cheating, and why divorce is a necessity in a lot of cases. Yes, I agree. For many the fact that their spouse (or significant other) cheated is a total deal breaker/divorce maker. I consider myself a BS as well (many things went down in my marriage that I've not shared & won't) I'm just not one of those that chooses to be bitter about it or carry it around in the forefront of my life. Or lash out at folks here. I've chosen to move forward. And, Give the other perspective that many BS's choose NOT to see. We all have our individual situations - some have similar endings, others don't. Divorce is NOT always what happens in the end after an affair. That's all I'm saying.
2.50 a gallon Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 What hardly nobody ever addresses on these boards is biology. In this case love chemicals. Commonly used terms, she/he is an alien, with a whole new personality, she acts like she is addicted, etc. All of which are true. Biologically, their brains are being washed in love chemicals, they are infatuated with the OM or OW, and are indeed addicted to this drug, and therefore their personality changes and they become aliens, even going so far as denying their own children. From all appearances, one could also say that they have turned into sociapaths, but they were not this way until they became infatuated with their new OP
confusedinkansas Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Oh really? Yes, Really. Not just me but others even on this website have been thru the whole infidelity thing & are STILL together. I know it's a shock. But it is a reality. Nope. Yep - Better for it. Better for going thru all the crap that you have to sift thru. Because once you've done that all the dirty laundry is out there. That's your take on it. Lets see how the H responds. Since my husband & I HAVE talked about it I can speak for him. He knows the role he played - I know the role I played. HE choose to stay. I choose to stay. Concious - Grown - Up - Decision. Yea in your opinion, but say that for all of the families broken up because of a one-night-stand. If cheating is not the worst thing by far, then why am I divorcing my own wife? Can't really speak for you - but after reading your other posts you are just one of many folks out there that CHEATING IS A DEAL BREAKER. That's a reality too. If you haven't been cheated on then you're not a BS. Wrong again. Infidelity is not the END ALL & BE ALL OF LIFE. Life has so many more aspects. You probably wouldn't understand if I tried to explain it to you. You can be a BS if it wan't infidelity. How about a partner that lies (Lied).......Yes, I'm a BS as well. Doesn't mean the marriage isn't dead. Some folks stay in a crappy marriage where the spouse keeps cheating. Not me. Won't end up like that. Well, I am sorry for all your pain. It will pass eventually. You will figure out a way to get thru. Time heals a lot of what ails us. Hard for you to believe I'm sure. You're right - it doesn't mean the marriage IS dead.....or isn't dead. For some it may be. My marriage - thru the alcohol & infidelity (& all the other SH*T that went down) is a happy one, finally. A happy home. We worked thru it TOGETHER!! We've been married almost 31 years - That's a damn long time & considering all we've been thru - We're better for it. MUCH BETTER!! For the record, not that it matters......I would be the spouse that DOES NOT keep cheating. (Once A Cheater is just something people in your situation like to say. They believe once you do it - you'll continue. It's not the case for many of us here)
jlola Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 What hardly nobody ever addresses on these boards is biology. In this case love chemicals. Commonly used terms, she/he is an alien, with a whole new personality, she acts like she is addicted, etc. All of which are true. Biologically, their brains are being washed in love chemicals, they are infatuated with the OM or OW, and are indeed addicted to this drug, and therefore their personality changes and they become aliens, even going so far as denying their own children. From all appearances, one could also say that they have turned into sociapaths, but they were not this way until they became infatuated with their new OP Most people do not understand the chemistry of love. On an episode of "House" with Hug Laurie last season it was touched upon. But not enough. The character "House" explained he and girlfriend were in the "Honeymoon stage" where brain is flooded with chemicals which makes you literally not think straight. His worry was what will happen to the relationship when the chemicals wear off(they have to, our bodies cannot substain living that way long term.) and the new girlfriend is back to Earth and sees they have nothing in common? I think many people having affairs do not realize they are in that honeymoon/nfatuation stage that last up to 3 years. But can be prolonged through obstacles. They think their feelings at this stage will last forever. They do not realize that "in love" feelings and craziness will too tone down and the relationship will have more struggles, as it moves along to other stages. The person who is in an affair rarely understands these stages and thinks affair partner is "the one". They believe they AP/MP just met at the wrong time and were mistaken about spouse being the one when they married. They do not realize that when they have a chance to fully have each other without obstacles, they too will pass infatuation stage(up to 36 months). That is why they pine so hard for each other when there is a break-up before the cycle of infatuation is complete. Most people do not get into the science of love. It is not too romantic since it is too logical and realistic and ultimately most people would rather listen to love songs or read poems written by people in the infatuation stage. Ever notice there are no poems or love songs about marriage? No, most are written about pining and longing or infatuation/honeymoon stage.
ladydesigner Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 When you think about it there really is no reason to be a cheater. Whatever kind of arrangement a person wants they can find somebody out there that wants the same and the internet has made it even easier. If a persons wants monogamy they can find somebody wants the same and ditto for polyamory or FWB or just a plain old one night stand. You can have whatever kind of thing you want and still be honest about it so why still cheat? I honestly think that some people get off on the lying, dishonesty and sneaking around. They find it exciting. If a person gets kicks off of treating a person like that then in my book they are a sociopath. My reason for cheating originally was to get revenge, to level the playing field since my H had been caught in 2 A's. I would say during my cheating episode I probably was showing qualities of being a sociopath, not thinking of how my actions would affect my H or my family. A sociopath does not have the ability to reflect, to feel remorse, humility, wrong, and more that goes along with infidelity. I had all of those feelings. I did not get off on the lying, dishonesty, or sneaking around. In fact I would say that was the worst part of the A. That was the part that made me think WTF am I doing. I was under the impression that a sociopath is like a murderer in that they have no feelings or remorse for their actions. They posses an impulsive quality that they either can't or do not want to control.
2.50 a gallon Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Love chemicals are so strong, and I think more so in women than men, so many men do not get it. In another post about a month back I related my experience with my ex-fiance. When we first met, she wasn't the least interested in me. I was too short, a blue jeans and T-shirt guy, with a moustache and longer hair, and about 8 years older than her. While she liked her men with a business cut, slacks and sports coat. And in fact that weekend was going to a fancy ball and gown event, with Tuxs, the whole Cinderella story. The only reason she went out with me was because she had never tried fishing and wanted to try it. We caught fish, talked, had a fish fry, drank some wine, made love without a condom, her first time without protection, and 24 hours later she was totally mine. And she had dumped all of her suiters, one who she had been dating for a year and the other 6 months. She didn't know what hit her, all that she knew was that she got a super high by being with me, and only me
2.50 a gallon Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Yes they can be part of the problem, but everybody is different,and each case is different, To put it simply, everytime you make your wife laugh, her body produces and sends good chemicals to the brain, but every time you make her cry, it sends out bad chemicals to the brain. But it is much more complicated than that, and there are just too many variables (needs not being met, communication, emotions, finances, etc.) to make it that simple. Also their up bringing, what was their relationship with their parents like? My best example is Prince Charles, he cheated on one of the most beautiful women in the world, and look what the prize was.
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