2sunny Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 She gained a lot of weight last summer and started drinking more and seemed withdrawn and totally uninterested in sex, but she was still as happy as ever you have contradicted yourself here. happy as ever? a woman who gains weight like this and drinks a lot does not equal a form of happy... she needs help that you cannot give her. look with realistic perception (open the eyes to see what you aren't seeing) - i believe yours shows evidence of being very skewed. look for guidance to help with growth on this for yourself as well.
2sunny Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 If anyone is out there that has been this woman - i'm trying to understand what she is thinking and what I can do - other than be alone and wait. Do you really want me to confront you that I no longer feel the separation is working (after only one week) and I've decided to come home and we'll work this out together? what she really wants is for you to be quiet so she can continue her affair without losing her job. she has chosen her OM - she intends for you to quietly go away. is that what you intend to do - or are you going to speak your truth. you are taking the wimpy approach - trying to appease her - this never works = she is walking all over you. what is going to change? are you planning to stand there and take that?
2sunny Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 So let's play it out: "Why are you here? Didn't you agree to give me time to work on myself? I knew you wouldn't live up to your word - this is why I need out of this marriage. You have to control the situation and me. Please get out or I'm calling the attorney and filing the divorce papers I've already signed!! I told the MC you wouldn't keep your word." And my reply . . . you are there because it's also YOUR house! if she had nothing to hide - and intended to separate - then WHY is she hiding it all from your kids? others? she knows she's caught and is trying to make it look like it's you... don't allow her that option - she cheated - have HER move! the MC you wouldn't keep YOUR word? how about HER word when SHE married you? get your balls out man, she is kicking them all around and you keep asking for more! expose her - to the kids and to her work! SHE did this- she could have considered the consequences for her actions - and she only considered her own selfish needs - never yours- never the M - never the kids- never the career... that is HERS to own. the reality is- she created this = let her move, suffer consequences SHE created. tell family, friends and be honest! when there is nothing to hide - people hide nothing... she's covering up - and you are ALLOWING it. stop that..
Lady_Lucifr Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 IMO you can't help this woman. She is selfish and insane. I know you didnt see this coming. But the fact that she signed the D papers is enough. She might be working on herself but that does not mean she is working on the marriage. She is out 100%. She is going to try to play you out as the bad person and given the decisions she made that is completely unfair to you and your kids. Let them know the truth because they deserve it. Personally I would tell her to go **ck her self and get out of the house.
seibert253 Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Listen, I made the same mistakes as you when I first found out what was really going on with my FWW. She walked all over me until I decided enough was enough, and I took back control of my M. I never "told" her what she was going to do, but gave her a choice. Basically put it like this: 1. You can do A, B, C, and D, and I will give 100% into trying to fix our broken M, or 2. You can do E, F, or G, and I will divorce you, and expose to EVERYONE, what you've done. Didn't take long after that for the fog to lift.
worlybear Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Hey. I really feel for you. I have been in your situation and tried my hardest to "recover" my marriage. but bottom line- he had already moved on(mentally) and there was nothing I could do about it. Like you I read all the books, sought advice, and,quite frankly, wouldn't believe that this was the same person I had raised a family with and trusted with my life for 27 years. But- he was the same person and it took me a long,long time to realise that my marriage was over and he didn't want me anymore. Its very hard to come to terms with but for your own sake- stop being Mr Nice Guy. It won't win you any prizes (apart from moral victory) and it sure as hell won't give you your home back. EXPOSE EVERYTHING SHE DID/IS DOING TO EVERYONE. And after telling your grown up kids- move back home! If she wants to move on-then let her move out!:bunny:
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) Status: Because she was out of town at son's school city, I had a chance to go back to the house for a few days and did not log in until tonight. I got no communication at all from either son or her over the weekend. Not unusual for son - but I thought she would send something. I did a few nice things for her and left a note. Nothing much, just a list so she would know. I did not expect a reply and did not get one. Back in the hotel. Since I've been gone, I see almost unanimous support for moving back in and setting boundaries (or even worse as some of you suggest). I also got this advice from her sister who is so upset and almost angry at her for not talking with her about the affair or what is going on now. She said too that is not at all like her sister and they have always confided in each other. I also shared my story with a man I respect and is involved with her workplace (as a board member no less). He simply said, god bless you, what can I do - which made me cry then, over the weekend and now. I told him I thought this might require an intervention of sorts down the road. All of this is making me rethink what I have done so far. A lot will have to do with MC appointment on Thursday. I was told by a prior therapist she went to that she would bolt if I made a stand like you suggest. That scares me - but if she does not convince me that she is using the time for change or is out of the fog, I guess it might be time. I am off work for 10 days after the next MC meeting - that might be helpful. I had that urge over the weekend in one of the roller coaster swings - looking around at the "house that I built" it seemed like a huge wrong that I was moving out. I got over it - maybe too quickly. Moving on to read conflict avoidance link. I really don't want to screw this up - is there anyone that separated, gave them time and it worked out there?? Or maybe those people aren't online any more because it worked?? Edited February 28, 2011 by AloneAndWaiting
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 This post, as well as many of your others, describe your wife as a classic Conflict Avoider. http://www.health.am/psy/avoidant-personality-disorder/ I hope this helps you gain a little insight into her thinking. I had never heard of this. I had a business partner that turned out to be BPD so I have been in this literature before. I even found some BPD traits of my own. While she has many of the traits, she is not APD to the extreme but far enough on the continuum that I do think it might be affecting her behavior. But she is so high functioning - and has sought positions that would put her in a leadership position where she would encounter conflict. At the other end of the extreme - she read Eat, Pray, Love recently - maybe that makes middle-aged women think their destiny is to divorce their husbands and whisk off to global self-improvement. This is consitent with "Even so, these individuals long for affection and fantasize about idealized relationships (DSM-IV, 1994, p. 663)." I think she sees me as a past she has to discard so she can emerge into this mid-life crisis exploration of self-absorption. Thank you for your post, peachypink. I'm a lifelong student. I like to understand things and look for reasons. I don't get much help on that online but that's what I'm seeking. If I know the reasons, maybe I can work on solutions.
2sunny Posted February 28, 2011 Posted February 28, 2011 (edited) stop doing nice things for her right now... you look like a doormat, hmmm. in fact she treats you like crap then you just ask for more. move into the house again and tell her IF anyone is moving out - SHE is - because SHE created what has happened. consequences for her actions may get her a bit motivated to see what she's doing is going to cause harm - as long as she doesn't bear any of the pain - she's not going to do anything different. the idea is to make her uncomfortable enough to change. stop making her so comfy! consequences- they are hers - not yours... Edited February 28, 2011 by 2sunny
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted February 28, 2011 Author Posted February 28, 2011 So please help me throught the script. At or after MC on Thursday, I should say something like "I really feel like moving out and separating so soon was a wrong decision. We have a lot to talk through and it would be more comfortable and easier for both of us at our home. I will not smother you, you will have your private time and respect. I just want us to be together more." Or do I just show up at home on Wednesday night before next MC and tell her I thought it would be nice to have a relaxing evening together so its not so awkward with the MC tomorrow. If she raises an issue, I will tell her that we have plenty of time to move to separation. There is no hurry for something so important for both of us and its not like either of us is going to make it difficult for the other. Can I get you a glass of wine? Which do you like best, Wed at home or Thursday at MC? How's that sound. Now what if she says "Get out or I'm leaving and filing divorce papers tomorrow!!"
2sunny Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 So please help me throught the script. At or after MC on Thursday, I should say something like "I really feel like moving out and separating so soon was a wrong decision. We have a lot to talk through and it would be more comfortable and easier for both of us at our home. I will not smother you, you will have your private time and respect. I just want us to be together more." Or do I just show up at home on Wednesday night before next MC and tell her I thought it would be nice to have a relaxing evening together so its not so awkward with the MC tomorrow. If she raises an issue, I will tell her that we have plenty of time to move to separation. There is no hurry for something so important for both of us and its not like either of us is going to make it difficult for the other. Can I get you a glass of wine? Which do you like best, Wed at home or Thursday at MC? How's that sound. Now what if she says "Get out or I'm leaving and filing divorce papers tomorrow!!" WHY are you trying to be so nice to your wife who is screwing you over? tell HER to get out - when you show up at your house to move back in. here's a hint - the nicer you are = the more she's going to take you for a ride you don't want to be on. man up - grow some balls - and start speaking your truth - she's purposely harming you and you are asking for more! go to the house while she's working and pack her bags so SHE can move out. she's cheating - and wants you to act like it's ok - and you are going along with it while smiling. stop taking that crap from her.
Darth Vader Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 (edited) So please help me throught the script. At or after MC on Thursday, I should say something like "I really feel like moving out and separating so soon was a wrong decision. We have a lot to talk through and it would be more comfortable and easier for both of us at our home. I will not smother you, you will have your private time and respect. I just want us to be together more." Or do I just show up at home on Wednesday night before next MC and tell her I thought it would be nice to have a relaxing evening together so its not so awkward with the MC tomorrow. If she raises an issue, I will tell her that we have plenty of time to move to separation. There is no hurry for something so important for both of us and its not like either of us is going to make it difficult for the other. Can I get you a glass of wine? Which do you like best, Wed at home or Thursday at MC? How's that sound. Now what if she says "Get out or I'm leaving and filing divorce papers tomorrow!!" DAMN YOU MAN, QUIT BEING A DAMN DOORMAT! LIKE THE PERSON ABOVE ME MENTIONED, YOUR BITCH OF A WIFE IS GOING TO TAKE YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU GOT AND THEN SOME, PAY ATTENTION TO US! MOVE BACK INTO THAT HOUSE AND KICK HER ASS OUT NOW!!! STOP WALLOWING IN SELF PITY AND TAKE YOU BALLS BACK! Edited March 1, 2011 by Darth Vader
Owl Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 So please help me throught the script. At or after MC on Thursday, I should say something like "I really feel like moving out and separating so soon was a wrong decision. We have a lot to talk through and it would be more comfortable and easier for both of us at our home. I will not smother you, you will have your private time and respect. I just want us to be together more." Or do I just show up at home on Wednesday night before next MC and tell her I thought it would be nice to have a relaxing evening together so its not so awkward with the MC tomorrow. If she raises an issue, I will tell her that we have plenty of time to move to separation. There is no hurry for something so important for both of us and its not like either of us is going to make it difficult for the other. Can I get you a glass of wine? Which do you like best, Wed at home or Thursday at MC? How's that sound. Now what if she says "Get out or I'm leaving and filing divorce papers tomorrow!!" How about... "I've decided that moving out isn't my best course of action at this time. Its just not the right thing to do at this point." It's then up to her to decide what she wants to do, rather than forcing you to do what she wants you to do. If she comes back and says "I'm leaving and file for divorce!!!" your answer should be: "I'm sorry you feel that way. I'd really rather find some way to save our marriage. When you leave, I would completely expect you to take the things that are clearly yours, and sit down with me to discuss the disposition of anything that's "ours". The kids (if you have any) will be staying here.". Don't argue. In fact, let me offer you a great technique to deal with someone who uses threats/anger/yelling to try to get you to fight with them. The louder she gets...the quieter you get. Stop and think about it for a moment. Everytime she goes ballistic...let her finish, without interrupting. Pause for a long time before you respond...make it clear you're thinking about what she said...and then repeat the ghist of what she said. Then add in your thoughts. Do so in a low, quiet, calm voice. If she interrupts or yells...let her. Then do the same thing, in an even lower tone of voice. Get to the point where you're nearly whispering if you have to. It's REALLY hard to fight with someone who does this. Bottom line...you can stand your ground, do what's right, without being a jerk. And you do need to stop letting her control this whole situation. Trust me...that hurts you a LOT more than it helps you.
worlybear Posted March 1, 2011 Posted March 1, 2011 PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE-LISTEN TO OWL. His advice is awesome. He has experience and has helped a lot of people.
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted March 2, 2011 Author Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I appreciate all advice - that's why I'm here. Before I joined I read a lot Owls posts so I know the investment he has made and experience he has. When I question the advice, it is because not all the advice is the same - and the consequences of mistakes are life long. The MC is the pro and this one is highly qualified and was recommended by someone that had my wife in therapy for years. The MC is trying to first establish my WW's trust and is seeing here for IC visits in between each of our joint visits. She has emailed me during the separation to confirm that she understands how deep in the affair fog and mid-life crisis my wife is in and how patient I might have to be to see it dissipate - so I have to be very careful this early in joint counseling not to seem too difficult. The MC says whe will meet with me individually eventually, but not until she established trust with my wife. A lot of people online don't trust the MC. But I do. But I am so afraid of Thursdays meeting - I know my wife will want to make it appear that nothing in her heart has changed. She's still playing defense internally and externally. So maybe the best place to make those statements is in the meeting. Edited March 2, 2011 by AloneAndWaiting
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted March 2, 2011 Author Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) During a very long walk today, I decided that the most important thing I need to do in this situation is set an example for my children that I am here to support them and their mother, regardless of what pain it might cause me. If an enemy attacked, I would sacrifice all to prevent any of them from having pain. This situation is no different. The enemy is within their mother - it is not their mother. I can't attack the enemy within without attacking the host. My wife is in great pain from some source and I think the only thing that is going to heal that pain is her looking within. When and if she heals that pain, I want to be remembered as a person that cared for her and protected her even when I was in greater pain than she - and I did it out of love for her, not selfishness for me. If she really is walking away to pursue another lover, my children will see that example. If not, then they will see a father that loved their mother the most at the time she needed him the most. And they will know they can always trust my love for them because of that. Edited March 2, 2011 by AloneAndWaiting
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted March 3, 2011 Author Posted March 3, 2011 What a roller coaster!!? See what I wrote above - that's changed - I'm heading back to my home tomorrow night. It's true, if she wants separation there is no reason why I must move out. I did not choose to have an affair and end this marriage. Her fog? What kind of fog have I been in?? Why? Well, thanks to worlybear, I went back searching for more Owl posts and found the Surfer203 thread. I'm not finished with it yet, but already I see the "enabling" he was doing and why that is no basis for a future, regardless of what that future might be. In other words, I can still do what I said above by setting reasonable boundaries in a calm and loving way. I don't have to approach this with fear of what she is going to do in response. She will choose. I have no control other than to make her regret that she chose poorly. That's a better example for my kids at the most important time when they are choosing spouses. Be compassionate, loving, and help those in pain but not so weak that you give up your self. Put your own oxygen mask on first so you can be strong enough to help those who need your help . . . but wait for them to come to you. Quit rescuing - quit enabling.
Owl Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 What a roller coaster!!? See what I wrote above - that's changed - I'm heading back to my home tomorrow night. It's true, if she wants separation there is no reason why I must move out. I did not choose to have an affair and end this marriage. Her fog? What kind of fog have I been in?? Why? Well, thanks to worlybear, I went back searching for more Owl posts and found the Surfer203 thread. I'm not finished with it yet, but already I see the "enabling" he was doing and why that is no basis for a future, regardless of what that future might be. In other words, I can still do what I said above by setting reasonable boundaries in a calm and loving way. I don't have to approach this with fear of what she is going to do in response. She will choose. I have no control other than to make her regret that she chose poorly. That's a better example for my kids at the most important time when they are choosing spouses. Be compassionate, loving, and help those in pain but not so weak that you give up your self. Put your own oxygen mask on first so you can be strong enough to help those who need your help . . . but wait for them to come to you. Quit rescuing - quit enabling. I should have thought to recommend that thread. Now you've got the idea. Enabling, accepting unacceptable behavior, etc...all of these things do more to HURT your situation than to help resolve it in a manner that would be acceptable. I've got nothing against MCs...the MC that my wife and I worked with was awesome, in fact. The thing is...that MC doesn't always have the same plan for an outcome, or a path to get there that works for you. You (both) have to have an MC that can tailor the plan to fit your situation. I understand what the MC is trying to do in building trust with your wife...but...his plan may take so long that your marriage dies from the symptoms of the problem before he actually treats the problem. Bear in mind that "manning up" doesn't mean becoming a jerk. It just means stop accepting unacceptable behaviors/attitudes. It means letting your wife suffer when her choices lead to suffering...so that she learns to make better choices. Keep us posted!
2sunny Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 i'm happy you seem to have taken some of your power back by setting a boundary and beginning to move forward. to allow someone to treat you terribly doesn't show a healthy example to your kids - in fact the opposite. you don't want them to think they should be treated like crap - only to stand there begging for more because you "love" someone... THAT is not loving behavior. as far as your wife goes - she won't change while she's comfortable. get home - it's your house too - make yourself comfy and happy there - let your wife deal with what SHE has created. the more she's comfortable... the more reason she has not to change a thing. IF she needs to be absent - let HER be accountable to you and the kids - do not be the middle man making excuses for her bad behavior, tell the kids to ask her things directly so you aren't involved in HER cover up - simply say = ask Mom. take care of YOU... and your kids. find ways each day to be happy. get a few hobbies and friends. show a loving and caring environment in the home... she probably isn't providing much of that if she's distracted and prioritizing life to suit the needs of her new guy. tell your kids you love them and that nothing will ever change that.
Author AloneAndWaiting Posted March 4, 2011 Author Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) As expected, the MC meeting was not productive. She said nothing had changed and she did not want to be married. I asked "not married to me or not married". She said "not married to anyone". I told her I was moving back to the house tonight. I also said that her unwillingness to work on the marriage indicated to me that the affair had not ended so i would need to begin exposing the truth of the affair to her boss and coworkers and sadly, our children (who live away at school, one in another country). She showed no remorse but got angry instead and said she would not be threatened into changing her mind. I told her calmly I was not threatening - simply being honest about my plans to be truthful with people about her and what she has done and what she is choosing to do. I called my son. He was more angry than sad and very angry she didn't tell him when she was there last weekend. He asked me not to expose her affair to her school or do anything that would keep us from being friends. I told him that was not his decision, but I would consider his advice. He asked me to come see him next weekend. He asked me not to tell his sister who is having a great study abroad experience. He said he wanted to do that but he didn't know when and we agreed it was best to keep it from her as long as possible, but also not good to do that. We left it undecided. I am sitting here staring at the walls in my empty home that two months ago held all my loving family around the christmas tree and fireplace and life was good. It's all gone. It's all gone. Edited March 4, 2011 by AloneAndWaiting
2sunny Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 AloneAndWaiting;3275692As expected, the MC meeting was not productive. She said nothing had changed and she did not want to be married. I asked "not married to me or not married". She said "not married to anyone". well, we know she's capable of lies... so the future will tell you if she means this. she really means "right now i want to be free to do what i want - not consider the hurt i am causing to others - and to not feel guilty that i'm doing something i shouldn't be doing. I told her I was moving back to the house tonight. I also said that her unwillingness to work on the marriage indicated to me that the affair had not ended so i would need to begin exposing the truth of the affair to her boss and coworkers and sadly, our children (who live away at school, one in another country). She showed no remorse but got angry instead and said she would not be threatened into changing her mind. I told her calmly I was not threatening - simply being honest about my plans to be truthful with people about her and what she has done and what she is choosing to do. no remorse and then anger seems totally unfeeling for anyone but herself. she's not sorry she did it - only sorry she got caught. I called my son. He was more angry than sad and very angry she didn't tell him when she was there last weekend. He asked me not to expose her affair to her school or do anything that would keep us from being friends. I told him that was not his decision, but I would consider his advice. He asked me to come see him next weekend. He asked me not to tell his sister who is having a great study abroad experience. He said he wanted to do that but he didn't know when and we agreed it was best to keep it from her as long as possible, but also not good to do that. We left it undecided. what you do with your marriage is up to you. that should not have to be your son's responsibility to tell his sister... that's not his position and not HIS marriage. your wife should be owning her bad behavior and have to tell them as well as answer to them as for her reasons of betrayal to the family unit... especially the way she has participated with you - her husband. to leave it unexposed gives her secret more power... i'd tell her boss. also, keep your kids out of the details moving forward - they only need to know you love them but won't be married to the Mother anymore. yes, life will forever change - but it can still be great if you all move past the changes without talking badly about each other... that only pains their heart. they will get happy again when they see you making new ways to find a way to be happy. YOUR relationship with them doesn't need to change... in fact it can get better if you allow that. I am sitting here staring at the walls in my empty home that two months ago held all my loving family around the christmas tree and fireplace and life was good. It's all gone. It's all gone. it could not have been good if she was pretending and/or lying. it was an illusion... no need to rehash it if it's not productive for growth. also MC may not be necessary anymore - try IC since she doesn't want to be married anymore - take the sessions to learn how to be happy on your own; start living again. stay busy. more than anything - i am sorry for your pain... i know it well - life does get better IF you allow it to - time helps too... hugs.
Owl Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 My friend...you don't EVER tell the WS that you're going to expose. There's probably no point in doing so at this point. She's had time to come up with a story, to find a way to put a "spin" on this so that you look like an idiot at best and insane/angry/vengeful at the worst. She'll either do a pre-emptive strike telling them that you're going to be coming to them with a made up story about her cheating on you, or she's going to have a plan on how to deal with anything they come back to her with once you've exposed. Unless you're seriously convinced that the people you're gonig to talk with know you and will believe you over whatever tale she tells...don't bother trying to expose to anyone who may likely want to believe her over you now. You'll do yourself mroe harm than good. Go ahead and expose to family and some friends if you think they'll seriously believe you based on her past/current behaviors...but don't expect the response you might have hoped for. Focus now on how you're going to get moved back in, how you're going to deal with the stress that's going to create, and how to protect your assets if she opts to file for divorce.
2sunny Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 if she opts to file for divorce. i would venture to say: WHEN she files for divorce. while you're taking your power back, why not YOU file for divorce now? she has stated perfectly well she doesn't want to be married... you might as well hand her what she wants and will do anyway. a good dose of reality would show her that you're not going to be the doormat she's figuring you to be...
What_Next Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I respectfully disagree with you Owl. In my case once my wife's affair became clear to me, I exposed it to anyone and everyone. Her family, my family, my close friends. I needed their support and strength and I had every intention of using whatever I could to get through it. I for one am glad I did. It had nothing to do with attempting to end the affair as it was alrready ended when I discovered it. Once the affair hits the light of day the shine will come off REAL QUICK. I do agree that it is your responsibility to tell your daughter. If she is studying abroad it does not need to be now. The truth, the whole truth is what you have to fall back on. A warning it could get NASTY. Good luck and gods speed.
Owl Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 You may have misunderstood my advice, WN. I'm a firm proponent of exposure...used it quite effectively in my own situation. I'm simply pointing out that it loses a LOT of it's effectiveness if the WS is forewarned that it's coming and has time to damage control.
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