What if it really is love...

February 20, 2011

I have been checking out this forum for a while although I only began posting last week. Many of the posts are from APs who are hurting and need advice and they have found a lot here. I have seen how heated the discussions can get and I am about to stir up the hornet's nest. So here goes...

I had a long conversation with a very close friend of mine today. He has known me for a long time and helps me with my business problems. Today I told him about my dilemma with MM. Below is the thread in which I told my story.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t265058/

He gave me advice that has got me thinking. In his opinion, I have spent years denying my feelings for MM and my friend (let's call him John) is worried that I will wake up one morning an old lady regretting that I never tried to find out if there was something between MM and I. He thinks that I have idealized MM's marriage and made it impossible for MM to think about leaving to be with me. John thinks that MM really does love me and that by refusing a friendship between us, I am effectively denying both of us a chance at love. John left his 14 year marriage after he met his current love. He knew before he met her that his marriage was hell but would not leave because to him his children needed stability. Meeting this woman helped him make the decision to leave. He says that he'd felt that leaving his W just because he wasn't happy in the M seemed selfish to him. They had 3 children and he couldn't bring himself to justify breaking up thier home with no plan. He met his love in his 11th year of M and although he knew there and then that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it took him another 3 years to leave. John's W found out about the OW almost as soon as they began to see each other but wanted them to work on the M. He said that guilt alone kept holding him back. One day he woke up (3 yrs after meeting OW) and left. It took 6 months to sort out the separation and custody issues. He got full custody and now more than 20 years later, he is happy.

His point is that I need to find out and that as long as I refuse to communicate and continue to pine for him, I will never know whether we had something or not. Regarding my concerns about hurting MM's W who does not deserve it, John said that I have no idea what kind of M they have and owe it to myself to find out. He argues that Ms break up for all sorts of reasons and OWs are not the main one.

It got me thinking about what love is. Someone commended me for doing the right thing on the other thread. But my talk with John has got me thinking that it may not be that straightforward. My reasons for not engaging in an A anymore were based on morals - what is right and what is wrong. At least that's what I've told myself all these years. But I think I am afraid. I am afraid of the pain that I would cause another woman and possibly their children. I am afraid of being labeled a "bad" person. It seems to be cowardice that has made me "do the right thing" rather than conviction. You see the truth is that I love the man and if something happened, I would be there in a split second.

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

February 20, 2011

I have been checking out this forum for a while although I only began posting last week. Many of the posts are from APs who are hurting and need advice and they have found a lot here. I have seen how heated the discussions can get and I am about to stir up the hornet's nest. So here goes...

I had a long conversation with a very close friend of mine today. He has known me for a long time and helps me with my business problems. Today I told him about my dilemma with MM. Below is the thread in which I told my story.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t265058/

He gave me advice that has got me thinking. In his opinion, I have spent years denying my feelings for MM and my friend (let's call him John) is worried that I will wake up one morning an old lady regretting that I never tried to find out if there was something between MM and I. He thinks that I have idealized MM's marriage and made it impossible for MM to think about leaving to be with me. John thinks that MM really does love me and that by refusing a friendship between us, I am effectively denying both of us a chance at love. John left his 14 year marriage after he met his current love. He knew before he met her that his marriage was hell but would not leave because to him his children needed stability. Meeting this woman helped him make the decision to leave. He says that he'd felt that leaving his W just because he wasn't happy in the M seemed selfish to him. They had 3 children and he couldn't bring himself to justify breaking up thier home with no plan. He met his love in his 11th year of M and although he knew there and then that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it took him another 3 years to leave. John's W found out about the OW almost as soon as they began to see each other but wanted them to work on the M. He said that guilt alone kept holding him back. One day he woke up (3 yrs after meeting OW) and left. It took 6 months to sort out the separation and custody issues. He got full custody and now more than 20 years later, he is happy.

His point is that I need to find out and that as long as I refuse to communicate and continue to pine for him, I will never know whether we had something or not. Regarding my concerns about hurting MM's W who does not deserve it, John said that I have no idea what kind of M they have and owe it to myself to find out. He argues that Ms break up for all sorts of reasons and OWs are not the main one.

It got me thinking about what love is. Someone commended me for doing the right thing on the other thread. But my talk with John has got me thinking that it may not be that straightforward. My reasons for not engaging in an A anymore were based on morals - what is right and what is wrong. At least that's what I've told myself all these years. But I think I am afraid. I am afraid of the pain that I would cause another woman and possibly their children. I am afraid of being labeled a "bad" person. It seems to be cowardice that has made me "do the right thing" rather than conviction. You see the truth is that I love the man and if something happened, I would be there in a split second.

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

I see no reason not to out the MM. I usually advise this, except in cases where the OW/OM is hurting so much and they are motivated by revenge - because then I think it will often make them feel even worse. I'm all for honesty and the truth. By engaging with you, MM has shared some of his private life with you and now that information is yours to treat as you wish. You have already confided in a friend, which is fine, and can give you additional support and advice. I don't know your MM and how he would react if you told his W. Some react by lying and making the W feel crazy so that she doesn't know who to trust. It is probably better if you have hard evidence to give the W.

However, how things settle out after dday can be unpredictable. You would need to be prepared for that.

February 20, 2011

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

Nemo, my morality clearly differs from yours. I have no compunction in advising an OW or an OM, or a WS, to "go for it" and pursue an A - provided that that is in keeping with that OW / OM / WS's morality. If they are going to feel that they are compromising their integrity by getting involved with a person who is M, then I would not advise them to do it, as they will be wracked with doubts during the A, and after the A will be haunted with low self-esteem and self-loathing. There are a number of such stories here on LS - sometimes years after the event the AP is still unable to move on from the outrage they consider themselves to have committed. So, I would advocate "going for it" only if the prospective AP does not have moral objections to doing so.

I also consistently advise against "outing" the MM in order to force a resolution. If a MP is going to leave a M, they will do it when they are ready to - else even if they leave, it will not be sustainable. Most MPs also want a "managed exit" from the M, under conditions that give them at least some control, and forcing a resolution denies them that possibility. However, it sounds as if your situation is one step behind even that. Your friend's advice seems to suggest that your potential MM does not understand the intensity of your feelings for him, or that you desire a longer-term future with him. In this case I would certainly advocate having a heart-to-heart with him to establish whether or not he shares your feelings, hopes and intentions. If he is interested in a future with you - and the format he has in mind is something acceptable to you - then you will need to convey your moral stance to him as a condition for involvement, and negotiate something acceptable to both of you - or accept that what you and he want is incompatible.

What your friend describes makes a lot of sense to me, and sounds rather similar to what my H experienced. However, you need to do what works for you - not for anyone else. Follow your heart - but don't betray your values in the process. You need to be happy with what you are doing, or you will not be happy.

February 20, 2011

I am also against "outing" the MM. If he wants to leave his marriage, he will. You do whatever works for YOU-barring illegal activities and keeping in mind that life has an interesting way of making us "pay" for unjust things we do. Good luck!

February 20, 2011

I am also against "outing" the MM. If he wants to leave his marriage, he will. You do whatever works for YOU-barring illegal activities and keeping in mind that life has an interesting way of making us "pay" for unjust things we do. Good luck!

yes - the bolded hopefully doesn't require stating, but tami has a valid point!

February 20, 2011

I see no reason not to out the MM. I usually advise this, except in cases where the OW/OM is hurting so much and they are motivated by revenge - because then I think it will often make them feel even worse. I'm all for honesty and the truth. By engaging with you, MM has shared some of his private life with you and now that information is yours to treat as you wish. You have already confided in a friend, which is fine, and can give you additional support and advice. I don't know your MM and how he would react if you told his W. Some react by lying and making the W feel crazy so that she doesn't know who to trust. It is probably better if you have hard evidence to give the W.

However, how things settle out after dday can be unpredictable. You would need to be prepared for that.

Woinlove,

In my case telling the BS about an old affair now would smack of pure malice. The discussion just made me realize that maybe I should have outed the R at the very beginning and probably ended the prospect of M for them right there. Would he have married me instead? Who knows? But at that point, I would have known one way or the other.

February 20, 2011

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

Nemo having read your other thread you were clearly not comfortable being the OW. So the question is what do you mean by go for it?

Given your history and your morals as discussed on your earlier thread why not talk to him. Call him. Tell him you need to talk.

Tell him you are divorcing and that you both still love each other and what are you going to do about it. You are wasting precious years when you could be building your own family together. His W could find someone who really loves her best.

True love is a precious gift and should not be squandered. So I say go for it (within your own moral comfort zone).

When I was with xMM i had this silly idea that I should not say anythnig or try to encourage him to leave his M because it was improper and that my place was as an extension of his current life and it was somehow unseemly to entertain discussion of anything else.

Now in retrospect I can see that ship sailed the moment I got involved with him. I was making a fake distinction in my own mind.

Go for it. Life is short. If he says no he cant or is not open to discussing it, that is his loss but you may be surprised. He may be wishing that you would be open to exploring a future together.

February 20, 2011

Nemo, my morality clearly differs from yours. I have no compunction in advising an OW or an OM, or a WS, to "go for it" and pursue an A - provided that that is in keeping with that OW / OM / WS's morality. If they are going to feel that they are compromising their integrity by getting involved with a person who is M, then I would not advise them to do it, as they will be wracked with doubts during the A, and after the A will be haunted with low self-esteem and self-loathing. There are a number of such stories here on LS - sometimes years after the event the AP is still unable to move on from the outrage they consider themselves to have committed. So, I would advocate "going for it" only if the prospective AP does not have moral objections to doing so.

I also consistently advise against "outing" the MM in order to force a resolution. If a MP is going to leave a M, they will do it when they are ready to - else even if they leave, it will not be sustainable. Most MPs also want a "managed exit" from the M, under conditions that give them at least some control, and forcing a resolution denies them that possibility. However, it sounds as if your situation is one step behind even that. Your friend's advice seems to suggest that your potential MM does not understand the intensity of your feelings for him, or that you desire a longer-term future with him. In this case I would certainly advocate having a heart-to-heart with him to establish whether or not he shares your feelings, hopes and intentions. If he is interested in a future with you - and the format he has in mind is something acceptable to you - then you will need to convey your moral stance to him as a condition for involvement, and negotiate something acceptable to both of you - or accept that what you and he want is incompatible.

What your friend describes makes a lot of sense to me, and sounds rather similar to what my H experienced. However, you need to do what works for you - not for anyone else. Follow your heart - but don't betray your values in the process. You need to be happy with what you are doing, or you will not be happy.

OWoman,

The bold part is 100% right. The whole outing question just came to mind when I was thinking about what I could have done differently.

My friend thinks that I should do something and wasn't specific what exactly but I think you have summed up my situation pretty well. My MM (still in full-blown EA of sorts:() is not aware of my feelings because I haven't been open with him since I got married. He is also not aware that I am thinking more long-term or at least having a shot at long term. At this point, I have no idea what that is but I suppose we do need to discuss it.

Thanks for your advice.

February 20, 2011

Nemo having read your other thread you were clearly not comfortable being the OW. So the question is what do you mean by go for it?

Given your history and your morals as discussed on your earlier thread why not talk to him. Call him. Tell him you need to talk.

Tell him you are divorcing and that you both still love each other and what are you going to do about it. You are wasting precious years when you could be building your own family together. His W could find someone who really loves her best.

True love is a precious gift and should not be squandered. So I say go for it (within your own moral comfort zone).

When I was with xMM i had this silly idea that I should not say anythnig or try to encourage him to leave his M because it was improper and that my place was as an extension of his current life and it was somehow unseemly to entertain discussion of anything else.

Now in retrospect I can see that ship sailed the moment I got involved with him. I was making a fake distinction in my own mind.

Go for it. Life is short. If he says no he cant or is not open to discussing it, that is his loss but you may be surprised. He may be wishing that you would be open to exploring a future together.

I believe its really true love and perhaps I have been a bit "childish" as John put it. It feels silly now to moralize about this when in essence I haven't really tried to have a real R in years with him. So much time has gone by...I better have zero expectations though!!!

Thanks, jj33. I will talk to him. Now I need to figure out when.

February 20, 2011

The thing is you need to know what you want. My suspicion is you are not cut out to be an OW. It just rubs too much against your values and its not what you want for your life.

So really you are discussing a future. You know you are compatible sexually so its not about hopping into bed its about spending time, seeing if the spark is still there, do you still have the same values, has he become a jaded bitter person that you no longer recognize all those sorts of things. Do you still want the same things out of life.

The thing to be looking for is whether he is still the same man you remember, do you have the same sorts of feelings towards the man you see before you now.

The idea of auditioning a new relationship through an A could be painful and is not in my mind really necessary if he believes he still has the same feelings but its hard to say. I have gone round on the same issues with xMM both with him and in my own mind. Its a tricky one.

It really makes you wish you had held onto the brass ring for dear life when you had it in your hand. Not that the MM is a brass ring but sometimes relationshps have a "season" or a right time and you hope you didnt miss it. But if you did, then it only means there is something better awaiting you.

February 21, 2011

You know in your heart what you must do. Love is what makes life blossom. There is so much hardship in life you must always embrace love. Go for it.

Do not tell the wife. It is the man that you love. She is not your wife she is his wife. If he is a serious man for you he will talk to her when the time is right.

February 21, 2011

I am still in love with MM and he tells me that he is still in love with me. We rarely speak and although we are both on Skype, we do not chat. We even refused to be friends on Facebook. All this is in an effort to not have an A. We have done everything in our power in the last 7 years to avoid an A and I may have been a failure in my marriage but I at least avoided being the OW for that time.

Nemo, this bit about him refusing you as a friend on FB and that you do not talk, I wonder when the last time was you had a conversation with him. I also wonder if he refuses to speak to you how you will feel and are you ready for that?

Strangely enough I agree that if you need to talk with him to find out if it was indeed meant, then you should. But I would also look at what it would do to you if he refused, not saying this to put a downer on things, I am a believer in 'The One' and think that sometimes people settle for another instead. Has he tried to contact you now that he knows you are single? You ask what if it really is love? well if it is, then I hope he leaves his marriage to be with you and doesn't expect you to compromise your stated values by staying and you becoming an OW. I hope you guard your heart until you know which way the land lies and you have decided what works best for you.

February 21, 2011

I have been checking out this forum for a while although I only began posting last week. Many of the posts are from APs who are hurting and need advice and they have found a lot here. I have seen how heated the discussions can get and I am about to stir up the hornet's nest. So here goes...

I had a long conversation with a very close friend of mine today. He has known me for a long time and helps me with my business problems. Today I told him about my dilemma with MM. Below is the thread in which I told my story.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t265058/

He gave me advice that has got me thinking. In his opinion, I have spent years denying my feelings for MM and my friend (let's call him John) is worried that I will wake up one morning an old lady regretting that I never tried to find out if there was something between MM and I. He thinks that I have idealized MM's marriage and made it impossible for MM to think about leaving to be with me. John thinks that MM really does love me and that by refusing a friendship between us, I am effectively denying both of us a chance at love. John left his 14 year marriage after he met his current love. He knew before he met her that his marriage was hell but would not leave because to him his children needed stability. Meeting this woman helped him make the decision to leave. He says that he'd felt that leaving his W just because he wasn't happy in the M seemed selfish to him. They had 3 children and he couldn't bring himself to justify breaking up thier home with no plan. He met his love in his 11th year of M and although he knew there and then that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it took him another 3 years to leave. John's W found out about the OW almost as soon as they began to see each other but wanted them to work on the M. He said that guilt alone kept holding him back. One day he woke up (3 yrs after meeting OW) and left. It took 6 months to sort out the separation and custody issues. He got full custody and now more than 20 years later, he is happy.

His point is that I need to find out and that as long as I refuse to communicate and continue to pine for him, I will never know whether we had something or not. Regarding my concerns about hurting MM's W who does not deserve it, John said that I have no idea what kind of M they have and owe it to myself to find out. He argues that Ms break up for all sorts of reasons and OWs are not the main one.

It got me thinking about what love is. Someone commended me for doing the right thing on the other thread. But my talk with John has got me thinking that it may not be that straightforward. My reasons for not engaging in an A anymore were based on morals - what is right and what is wrong. At least that's what I've told myself all these years. But I think I am afraid. I am afraid of the pain that I would cause another woman and possibly their children. I am afraid of being labeled a "bad" person. It seems to be cowardice that has made me "do the right thing" rather than conviction. You see the truth is that I love the man and if something happened, I would be there in a split second.

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

My thoughts from reading this post and the one you linked is that if you two loved each other as you believe, why aren't you together? I don't get this can't divorce, blah blah blah. I am one of those people that believe if one person loves another, you will do whatever is necessary to be together, not be in an affair. I believe is someone is respected and cherished by someone else, the other person would not want to put them in a position of lying, sneaking around and watching them go home to someone else.

Divorce is common in all counties. Not saying it is easy, but common. People should respect each other and themselves enough to not put someone else in the position of being the affair partner. They want the BEST for their partner, not giving them scraps. Not sneaking around. Not going home to another person.

FN, in your situation, I would either go for it all or end it all. Stop putting your life on hold or in a holding pattern and make a decision FOR YOU. If he loves you and wants to be with you, he will do it.

I agree with you friend in that would you want to be very sick and look back on your life and realize you sat around and waited for years and missed out on life because you didn't either go for it or end it once and for all!!!

February 21, 2011

I have been checking out this forum for a while although I only began posting last week. Many of the posts are from APs who are hurting and need advice and they have found a lot here. I have seen how heated the discussions can get and I am about to stir up the hornet's nest. So here goes...

I had a long conversation with a very close friend of mine today. He has known me for a long time and helps me with my business problems. Today I told him about my dilemma with MM. Below is the thread in which I told my story.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t265058/

He gave me advice that has got me thinking. In his opinion, I have spent years denying my feelings for MM and my friend (let's call him John) is worried that I will wake up one morning an old lady regretting that I never tried to find out if there was something between MM and I. He thinks that I have idealized MM's marriage and made it impossible for MM to think about leaving to be with me. John thinks that MM really does love me and that by refusing a friendship between us, I am effectively denying both of us a chance at love. John left his 14 year marriage after he met his current love. He knew before he met her that his marriage was hell but would not leave because to him his children needed stability. Meeting this woman helped him make the decision to leave. He says that he'd felt that leaving his W just because he wasn't happy in the M seemed selfish to him. They had 3 children and he couldn't bring himself to justify breaking up thier home with no plan. He met his love in his 11th year of M and although he knew there and then that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, it took him another 3 years to leave. John's W found out about the OW almost as soon as they began to see each other but wanted them to work on the M. He said that guilt alone kept holding him back. One day he woke up (3 yrs after meeting OW) and left. It took 6 months to sort out the separation and custody issues. He got full custody and now more than 20 years later, he is happy.

His point is that I need to find out and that as long as I refuse to communicate and continue to pine for him, I will never know whether we had something or not. Regarding my concerns about hurting MM's W who does not deserve it, John said that I have no idea what kind of M they have and owe it to myself to find out. He argues that Ms break up for all sorts of reasons and OWs are not the main one.

It got me thinking about what love is. Someone commended me for doing the right thing on the other thread. But my talk with John has got me thinking that it may not be that straightforward. My reasons for not engaging in an A anymore were based on morals - what is right and what is wrong. At least that's what I've told myself all these years. But I think I am afraid. I am afraid of the pain that I would cause another woman and possibly their children. I am afraid of being labeled a "bad" person. It seems to be cowardice that has made me "do the right thing" rather than conviction. You see the truth is that I love the man and if something happened, I would be there in a split second.

Now that I have given you some background, the question is if an AP really feels that the A was true love, why do we (myself included) advise them to give up or wait for MM to come back? Is there a situation where OW/OM should go for it? We all hate the lying and cheating, granted. But what about looking at it from a different perspective? Instead of saying the OP should end the R or keep it quiet, why not advise the OP to have some "integrity" and out the MM to get a resolution? Why is this not one of the things APs should do early in the A instead of spending years and years in an A?.....(I fully expect to be blasted, go ahead but please add an opinion in there;))

Affairs are not love. Only deception, betrayal, disrespect, and risking lives sexually (STDs).

February 21, 2011

I think that if you think it's love, it's love.

And I would never presume I know what is better for someone else. And as long as the person is happy enough with what they have, who am I to decide they don't know what's best for themselves.

To thine self be true.

February 21, 2011

The thing is you need to know what you want. My suspicion is you are not cut out to be an OW. It just rubs too much against your values and its not what you want for your life.

So really you are discussing a future. You know you are compatible sexually so its not about hopping into bed its about spending time, seeing if the spark is still there, do you still have the same values, has he become a jaded bitter person that you no longer recognize all those sorts of things. Do you still want the same things out of life.

The thing to be looking for is whether he is still the same man you remember, do you have the same sorts of feelings towards the man you see before you now.

The idea of auditioning a new relationship through an A could be painful and is not in my mind really necessary if he believes he still has the same feelings but its hard to say. I have gone round on the same issues with xMM both with him and in my own mind. Its a tricky one.

It really makes you wish you had held onto the brass ring for dear life when you had it in your hand. Not that the MM is a brass ring but sometimes relationshps have a "season" or a right time and you hope you didnt miss it. But if you did, then it only means there is something better awaiting you.

jj33,

I am definately not cut out to be an OW. Funny thing is that MM was not consistent about when to hide the R and when not to and I would be worried when he openly showed affection in public and a bit pissed when for some unknown reason he didn't. I am unable to deal with that kind of rollercoaster ride. The default position of the man I love is number 1 (after my kids of course) in my life and so I expect the exact same thing.

My biggest regret is not that I declined his proposal. I was too young and I believe that had I gotten married, I would not have achieved what I have today. My regret is that it has taken me this long to understand how much I love this man. I was a pretty cocky young girl who always believed that all it takes in life is will power and self-control. LOL:laugh:...Didn't work for me in this case.

February 21, 2011

You know in your heart what you must do. Love is what makes life blossom. There is so much hardship in life you must always embrace love. Go for it.

Do not tell the wife. It is the man that you love. She is not your wife she is his wife. If he is a serious man for you he will talk to her when the time is right.

Hi SuzieWong,

That last part is interesting and may be inevitable...

February 21, 2011

I am still in love with MM and he tells me that he is still in love with me. We rarely speak and although we are both on Skype, we do not chat. We even refused to be friends on Facebook. All this is in an effort to not have an A. We have done everything in our power in the last 7 years to avoid an A and I may have been a failure in my marriage but I at least avoided being the OW for that time.

Nemo, this bit about him refusing you as a friend on FB and that you do not talk, I wonder when the last time was you had a conversation with him. I also wonder if he refuses to speak to you how you will feel and are you ready for that?

Strangely enough I agree that if you need to talk with him to find out if it was indeed meant, then you should. But I would also look at what it would do to you if he refused, not saying this to put a downer on things, I am a believer in 'The One' and think that sometimes people settle for another instead. Has he tried to contact you now that he knows you are single? You ask what if it really is love? well if it is, then I hope he leaves his marriage to be with you and doesn't expect you to compromise your stated values by staying and you becoming an OW. I hope you guard your heart until you know which way the land lies and you have decided what works best for you.

Hi Seren,

The last time I spoke with him was Sunday. Before that maybe a week and a half ago. And before that, last September. A week and a half ago he called (out of the blue as usual) to tell me he misses me and that not one single day goes by without him thinking of me. He would do this once in while from the time we broke up in 2004, and depending on my mood, I'd either listen and give a muted response like "Hmmm" or I tell him to stop wasting my damn time!!! This time I told him that I loved him too - s**t, it is like a disease.

About Skype, I asked him to sign on because we were doing some business last September and it made sense to have video calls. The minute the contract details were finalized between us, we just automatically stopped communicating. I can see him log on, just as he can see me I suppose but neither of us dare call the other. As for Facebook, I WILL not friend him because with FB, you appear in the friends' list. We have never discussed whether to FB or not, but I suspect that he will not friend me for the same reason.

How will I feel if he decides to go NC after I speak to him? I don't know. It depends on what he says really. He knows that I have left my H since he was the first person I called and cried my heart out to. For a few months he kept calling me and discussing my going back to my M which I adamantly refused to do. Then he went NC for about six months including coming into my city a couple of times and not letting me know. Then he broke NC and never talked about my H or M again. Weird!! I've never thought about that sequence of events. It is good for me talk about these things because you ask questions that make me analyze the sit. Wow!! Doesn't MM sound a bit confused/confusing??? Hmmm.

@fooledonce, I am going for it. Thanks.

@Beachbetty, thanks.

February 22, 2011

I can not say what is or is not "true" love ….but I will say this, you will know for sure when it is gone and it is TRUE HEARTACHE......

I know it was true love for me, because I am the one that has cried a million tears and still do, no matter what it was to xMM. (meaning my love for him was true)

Now about telling his W, that is solely his responsibility, IMO.

February 22, 2011

If your morals bother you that don't have an affair. But also make sure you cut all communications with that person.

My MM is going through this moral struggle after telling me I am his soulmate, his wife, the love of his life, his forever aftermore,... its hurtful but I sit around waiting,... hoping that he will realize our love is true love, a love of a lifetime (which he has said and believed we were at one point).

He's not a whimp or can't man up because he can't leave her for me. Its about his boys. I get it. We have talked about loving two people two different ways and he said he can do that but he is having a hard time with his emotions. He loves me and feels he is cheating on me by developing emotions for her in working on and fixing his marriage through counseling. He is now focusing on fixing their marriage and putting me on the backburner...

It hurts like hell. The worse kind of pain possible. I gave him my heart, not something I have ever given any man. He knows this so he feels an obligation to my happiness. He knows its not his responsibility but he does care for me enough that he wants me happy too.

Anyway,... if your morals hold you back. Cut your ties with him. Let him hurt and move on. Don't lead him on an emotional rollercoaster. Its painful. Like a thousand knife cuts searing deep in your heart.

February 22, 2011

I wish I had the patience to learn how to multi-quote a thread, because just about everyone so far has said so many things that are dead-on.

Nemo, I feel for you and admire you tremendously. OWoman, jj33, and seren, your responses are all perfect. JJ, your response struck me in particular: Nemo, you are probably not cut out to be the OW. And since you clearly have not been able to put him out of your mind for over14 years, it sounds like you need to pursue this if only to figure out how you really feel about him now, and whether you it's worth it to put your (romantic) life on hold to decide whether to either start moving forward, or waiting for him.

My situation is very different from yours, but there are parallels. NOT T/Jing, but my MM's wife is wonderful and sweet and their marriage is just fine...they work well together and he cares deeply for her. He'd live a perfectly happy and adequate life with her, but like your MM, will always know what is missing.

It's hard to argue with those who say "stick with the spouse," when the spouse is someone who is loving and wonderful...and in most cases, affairs are built upon excitement and things missing from a LTR/marriage. But other affairs arise when the MP settled young or for the wrong reasons, and the relationship became a source of comfort and familiarity, rather than a "home base" for both people to grow. At some point, one or both spouses feels the subtle difference between

comfort limiting growth, or comfort merely being a source of stability.

In your case, Nemo, I suspect your MM settled for stability and will always wonder about you. It's clear from your post that you tried to do the same, picked the wrong guy, and you were strong enough to move on.

Here's where it gets tricky: he needs to understand this, too. Sounds like he never stopped thinking about you, and knows the right answer to the question, but will he choose you and move forward with you? It's terrifying to put yourself out there, but if you believe he is worth it, YOU already have the strength to try to make it work and handle whatever heartache comes your way. He may not, and it's his loss if he doesn't.

Bottom line is: I'm with John. Go for it. If it doesn't work out, and you are heartbroken now, at least you'll know that you tried. Better than regretting what might have been...

February 22, 2011

I wish I had the patience to learn how to multi-quote a thread, because just about everyone so far has said so many things that are dead-on.

Nemo, I feel for you and admire you tremendously. OWoman, jj33, and seren, your responses are all perfect. JJ, your response struck me in particular: Nemo, you are probably not cut out to be the OW. And since you clearly have not been able to put him out of your mind for over14 years, it sounds like you need to pursue this if only to figure out how you really feel about him now, and whether you it's worth it to put your (romantic) life on hold to decide whether to either start moving forward, or waiting for him.

My situation is very different from yours, but there are parallels. NOT T/Jing, but my MM's wife is wonderful and sweet and their marriage is just fine...they work well together and he cares deeply for her. He'd live a perfectly happy and adequate life with her, but like your MM, will always know what is missing.

It's hard to argue with those who say "stick with the spouse," when the spouse is someone who is loving and wonderful...and in most cases, affairs are built upon excitement and things missing from a LTR/marriage. But other affairs arise when the MP settled young or for the wrong reasons, and the relationship became a source of comfort and familiarity, rather than a "home base" for both people to grow. At some point, one or both spouses feels the subtle difference between
comfort limiting growth, or comfort merely being a source of stability.

In your case, Nemo, I suspect your MM settled for stability and will always wonder about you. It's clear from your post that you tried to do the same, picked the wrong guy, and you were strong enough to move on.

Here's where it gets tricky: he needs to understand this, too. Sounds like he never stopped thinking about you, and knows the right answer to the question, but will he choose you and move forward with you? It's terrifying to put yourself out there, but if you believe he is worth it, YOU already have the strength to try to make it work and handle whatever heartache comes your way. He may not, and it's his loss if he doesn't.

Bottom line is: I'm with John. Go for it. If it doesn't work out, and you are heartbroken now, at least you'll know that you tried. Better than regretting what might have been...

Carrie999,

Thanks for telling your story and no, you were not t/jing.

The more I think about this, the more I wonder. I have decided to approach this like it is a BIG business problem. In most cases, one needs to think about the different outcomes of one's chosen action. I could get rejected big time. Yes it will hurt because my feelings may remain the same regardless. Then I'll be in a truly hopeless sit. Is he worth it? Maybe I am a bit weird in the sense that I don't really think about it that way. I believe that what we feel for each other is worth exploring fully.

The other outcome (MM and me together) though it sounds like the ideal will be far from easy going. I have at times been so mad, I hated him. I know he has been very angry too at times. Once in while one of us would send the meanest email (I called them missiles because they appeared out of the blue and were devastating). We blamed each other for the pain we were in. In my case, I was pissed that he wouldn't just wake up and do what he needs to do. At one time I was so angry I told him that I wished I had never met him in the first place and that the only hope I had of getting over him is if he died:o!!! That sounds childish but I meant it from the bottom of my heart. In his case, he understood that I wouldn't be an OW anymore but he was mad everytime he heard that I may have been seeing someone. He was conflicted when I was getting married and hated my husband. He was livid when he found out about the violence... We have a lot of issues to work through before we even consider being together.

So at this point, both outcomes look like they will involve some amount of pain. But at least there will be closure!!!

February 22, 2011

Affairs are not love. Only deception, betrayal, disrespect, and risking lives sexually (STDs).

For the BS, perhaps. For the APs though, it certainly can be love (and in most of the stories on LS, it is )

Speaking in absolutes merely shows off one's own prejudices; it doesn't address the unique situation each poster brings. It just sends a signal to say, this poster cannot listen but can only broadcast, like those dolls who say prerecorded phrases when you pull their strings.

Nemo - you identify positives and negatives with both possible outcomes. That is realistic: seldom is anything completely uncomplicated. But you present only two possible scenarios - him rejecting you, or you ending up with him. The reality may be more complex. He may respond positively to your approach, but not offer you togetherness immediately (he would first have to D, etc) - what would your response be to that? How long would you be willing to wait? Would you be prepared to accept some "in between" situation in the interim, or would you tell him to contact you once he'd sorted his life out? How strongly would you be able to stick to your "bottom line" if he offered you some, but not all, of what you want?

March 1, 2011

Here's a view from the other side...

MM/OM and recently (too painfully recently) it ended with my heart shattered, her heart moved on and back to her life. Ok the point being (this is your thread, i'm not starting one yet) I know smt about being a MM AP who has been getting NC, and still pines for you.

This is...my everyday suffering.

Don't out the MM to his W. Nine times out of ten this will be perceived as a revenge attack. He might still come round to you...first you'll have to make amends for forcing a divorce upon him, violently.

Don't assume he won't leave her now, just because he didn't do so before. He's had time to think about how much he wants you. He's had time to think about what a mistake it was to not leave his W for you. If this is true love, he might be ready now for a second chance.

You have to protect yourself, so you don't end up with a MM who just never gets around to divorce. You're not going back into an A, you're giving him one more chance to escape to a LIFE with you.

So, it's like a business deal:

-contact and say you've been thinking of him, that you think it was true love

-try to avoid the contagious "i love you" stuff; don't give the buyer control over you

-offer to give it another try, if he will leave her, cause you think it was true love

-this offer is contingent upon him producing divorce papers, and expires in x weeks

-he MUST take a minimum of two days to think it over; you'll ignore him for next two days

-inform him that there is definite risk here that the two of you won't work out, that you make no guarantees. If things go bad you will dump him (and expect the same from him)

-inform him that there is a slight risk you will cold-feet and rescind the offer before the deadline is up

-This is the important part: DO NOT HOOK UP, emotionally or physically, until he produces those papers. This means no contact. Explain this restriction to him. Otherwise you've given him permission to cake-eat.

Don't assume that he'll say yes. He might not be interested, at all. he might waffle a bit, and fail to close the deal by the deadline. Either of these indicate that he's not the one for you.

If he is the one, how will he react, after NC from you?

If she came at me with this today, I would probably ask if she had the phone number of a divorce lawyer.

This is also why you should have 'two day waiting' period. If she gave me five minutes I'd say yes. If she gave me two days, i would actually think it through. The considered answer is the one you want, here, since you're risking your heart.

IF he says no or fails to meet the conditions...this is a business deal, you MUST walk away from him.

Good luck, I hope you get closure, whether it is a 'yes' or a 'no' from him.

March 2, 2011

Here's a view from the other side...

MM/OM and recently (too painfully recently) it ended with my heart shattered, her heart moved on and back to her life. Ok the point being (this is your thread, i'm not starting one yet) I know smt about being a MM AP who has been getting NC, and still pines for you.
This is...my everyday suffering.

Don't out the MM to his W. Nine times out of ten this will be perceived as a revenge attack. He might still come round to you...first you'll have to make amends for forcing a divorce upon him, violently.

Don't assume he won't leave her now, just because he didn't do so before. He's had time to think about how much he wants you. He's had time to think about what a mistake it was to not leave his W for you. If this is true love, he might be ready now for a second chance.

You have to protect yourself, so you don't end up with a MM who just never gets around to divorce. You're not going back into an A, you're giving him one more chance to escape to a LIFE with you.

So, it's like a business deal:

-contact and say you've been thinking of him, that you think it was true love
-try to avoid the contagious "i love you" stuff; don't give the buyer control over you
-offer to give it another try, if he will leave her, cause you think it was true love
-this offer is contingent upon him producing divorce papers, and expires in x weeks
-he MUST take a minimum of two days to think it over; you'll ignore him for next two days
-inform him that there is definite risk here that the two of you won't work out, that you make no guarantees. If things go bad you will dump him (and expect the same from him)
-inform him that there is a slight risk you will cold-feet and rescind the offer before the deadline is up
-This is the important part: DO NOT HOOK UP, emotionally or physically, until he produces those papers. This means no contact. Explain this restriction to him. Otherwise you've given him permission to cake-eat.

Don't assume that he'll say yes. He might not be interested, at all. he might waffle a bit, and fail to close the deal by the deadline. Either of these indicate that he's not the one for you.

If he is the one, how will he react, after NC from you?

If she came at me with this today, I would probably ask if she had the phone number of a divorce lawyer.
This is also why you should have 'two day waiting' period. If she gave me five minutes I'd say yes. If she gave me two days, i would actually think it through. The considered answer is the one you want, here, since you're risking your heart.

IF he says no or fails to meet the conditions...this is a business deal, you MUST walk away from him.

Good luck, I hope you get closure, whether it is a 'yes' or a 'no' from him.

Thanks, Flabbergaster. I am so sorry that you find yourself in this kind of situation. But as you say, it is best to think of this like it is a business deal. I am now in touch with him and there is no lovey dovey stuff. Instead, we are working on a project together - until August. It is quite frustrating right now. I am putting off the ultimatum off for a while. To be honest, the more I think about it, the more freaked out I get about putting myself out there. He knows that I am getting a divorce and has every opportunity to make the first move. Now that we are working together, my biggest worry is making sure there is no physical stuff. But I agree, no papers = no R.

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