Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I'm really glad I came to this forum and started sharing and reading. It has made me see the utter predictability with these scumbag men. I think if we can step back and look at things objectively it can help to prevent further despair. One of the things I am noticing is that these men give us a taste of the "ideal" and keep us hooked on the potential. It is that ideal which is presented to the extreme in incredibly short snippets that make us want more and stay hooked. Someone said something today on this forum about how some people like playing games with others. And I think that is so true. And it's not just in romance. I run a small business and see it there, too. And it is exactly the same thing. They try and lure you into doing more for less by baiting you with the promise of more. The thing is, that "promise" is all they will ever deliver. I have wondered how people could do that to me. I run a small business. If I don't get paid I don't earn money. But I have been cheated many times. How could people do that??? It's not like they don't have money to pay me. It is the game to them. I am learning. They confuse us because we cannot intellectually understand why they are doing what they're doing. It is horrible to think about, it really is. For so long I felt I wasn't living up to my potential. Now I realize how true that is in a way I had not understood before. But since it is about us it is in our power to change things! It is very easy to point out how others treat us badly. The trick is to point out how we treat ourselves badly! Edited February 20, 2011 by Sharon1961
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 I guess the long and the short of it is - they are very predictable but so are we. And there is only one part of that equation we have power over.
jj33 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I totally agree with you Sharon. I had my own business and I found that because it was just me people tried to take advantage not all, just some. I am still collecting or trying to from some people who owed me before I wound it up. And the OW if she doesnt exercise her power is in the same position. People can pigeon hole you and say you are not in a powerful position and its up to you whether you feel that you hold hte power or you dont. Either you set the terms you want to live by (in business or in your personal life) or you let someone else call the shots. It is all about boundaries.
joey66 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Sharon. I agree. These scumbag men (and a few women, too - men do not have the exclusive rights to being scumbags) are predictable. I humbly suggest that looking at things objectively is easier said than done. I also think that the sample provided at LS is not random. Those women who are involved with "nice MM" (oxymoron?) probably don't spend a lot of time here. Those who do come here usually do so because something is wrong in the R. JMO.
jj33 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Joey I totally agree I think to a large extent that is true. This is not an easy place to get support if you are in an A where the guy is not treating the OW badly but she just has the normal concerns that arise in an A so most of the posters (not all but most) are not in the best situation.
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Sharon. I agree. These scumbag men (and a few women, too - men do not have the exclusive rights to being scumbags) are predictable. I humbly suggest that looking at things objectively is easier said than done. I also think that the sample provided at LS is not random. Those women who are involved with "nice MM" (oxymoron?) probably don't spend a lot of time here. Those who do come here usually do so because something is wrong in the R. JMO. hmmm... "nice MM", that's an interesting concept and likely means different things to different people. Being "nice" would include treating others well which, for me, would include being honest with the spouse and the AP. When that happens, and you don't have an open M, that typically means the end of either the A or the M. But it seems that many MM/MW aren't honest even after dday so that both the A and M might continue in some state or other, and "nice" isn't much of a factor in that behavior.
jj33 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 hmmm... "nice MM", that's an interesting concept and likely means different things to different people. Being "nice" would include treating others well which, for me, would include being honest with the spouse and the AP. When that happens, and you don't have an open M, that typically means the end of either the A or the M. But it seems that many MM/MW aren't honest even after dday so that both the A and M might continue in some state or other, and "nice" isn't much of a factor in that behavior. Huh. Didnt you say you were an OW a number of times? If so, what makes you feel see it so differently now?
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Huh. Didnt you say you were an OW a number of times? If so, what makes you feel see it so differently now? Not exactly sure why you think my post means that I see it differently now, but I'll explain a bit and maybe it will answer your question. I didn't think deceiving someone was nice then and I don't think it is nice now. So that hasn't changed. Although I didn't fully appreciate it at the time, it did matter to me how someone I was with treated others - and I think that is why in the most serious case, where I was with a MM for over two years and he left his M, I then left him. I hadn't realized it previously, but when suddenly the possibility of sharing the rest of my life with him was real, I realized I did want someone who would not treat their W the way he had. So, what changed is that I came to realize it is not just how I am being treated (or think I am being treated) that matters to me. Even then, it was not all that mattered, but for a time, I thought it was. Does that answer your question, or did I misunderstand your post?
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 Sharon. I agree. These scumbag men (and a few women, too - men do not have the exclusive rights to being scumbags) are predictable. I humbly suggest that looking at things objectively is easier said than done. I also think that the sample provided at LS is not random. Those women who are involved with "nice MM" (oxymoron?) probably don't spend a lot of time here. Those who do come here usually do so because something is wrong in the R. JMO. I do believe that there are nice, honorable people who find themselves attracted to people outside their marriage or committed relationship. But it comes down to how it is handled. My feelings about marriage vary. I wonder if it is realistic to sign a legal document saying you will be with someone for always. How can we know that we will change in the same ways or want the same things down the road? It seems entirely possible to me that some people really want the commitment with the other person when they make it but change. And what does it say about our society that people are still making such a commitment when it has been proven that a good deal of the time it doesn't work out well?? Should vows even say "forever" anymore?? So, yes, a good and decent person might change their mind and/or meet someone they think is better suited to them. I am sure there are people, when faced with this, that are honorable in their handling of such a situation. But there are also a lot of scumbags who cause a boatload of pain for everyone involved. And those victims are the ones who come to a place like LS. Yup. And those are the stories we hear in the media and books because drama/conflict sells and entertains. People who handle their lives without drama are a lot more quiet.
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I do believe that there are nice, honorable people who find themselves attracted to people outside their marriage or committed relationship. But it comes down to how it is handled. My feelings about marriage vary. I wonder if it is realistic to sign a legal document saying you will be with someone for always. How can we know that we will change in the same ways or want the same things down the road? It seems entirely possible to me that some people really want the commitment with the other person when they make it but change. And what does it say about our society that people are still making such a commitment when it has been proven that a good deal of the time it doesn't work out well?? Should vows even say "forever" anymore?? So, yes, a good and decent person might change their mind and/or meet someone they think is better suited to them. I am sure there are people, when faced with this, that are honorable in their handling of such a situation. But there are also a lot of scumbags who cause a boatload of pain for everyone involved. And those victims are the ones who come to a place like LS. Yup. And those are the stories we hear in the media and books because drama/conflict sells and entertains. People who handle their lives without drama are a lot more quiet. As to marriage, I'll repeat myself and say again that I think it all comes down to open and honest and continual, ongoing communication. Yes, you can be attracted to someone else. Yes, you can discuss this with your spouse if you entered marriage with the agreement of open and honest discussion and have maintained that agreement. People may change, but, barring something like a brain injury, they don't change overnight, so the other spouse should not be blindsided. If you have a M where you know things that are important to you, your spouse and/or your M will be discussed honestly, then M can make a lot of sense even though there are no guarantees that last forever. For people whose M works, it really is an amazing base to raise children, to pursue your goals and dreams, to explore what life has to offer, all with a loving, committed partner there to help cushion life's blows and to make life's highs even higher - for each other.
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 As to marriage, I'll repeat myself and say again that I think it all comes down to open and honest and continual, ongoing communication. Yes, you can be attracted to someone else. Yes, you can discuss this with your spouse if you entered marriage with the agreement of open and honest discussion and have maintained that agreement. People may change, but, barring something like a brain injury, they don't change overnight, so the other spouse should not be blindsided. If you have a M where you know things that are important to you, your spouse and/or your M will be discussed honestly, then M can make a lot of sense even though there are no guarantees that last forever. For people whose M works, it really is an amazing base to raise children, to pursue your goals and dreams, to explore what life has to offer, all with a loving, committed partner there to help cushion life's blows and to make life's highs even higher - for each other. Good post! You take on marriage is really the ideal. And I think the highlighted part makes a lot of sense.
joey66 Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 hmmm... "nice MM", that's an interesting concept ... How about "non-abusive" or "non-scumbag" MM? Surely there must be some category between scumbag and saint?
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 How about "non-abusive" or "non-scumbag" MM? Surely there must be some category between scumbag and saint? Yes, but that's not as interesting. I thought "nice" was interesting, because I expect different people to feel differently about "nice MM" - there's something there to be argued.
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 My original point was that people who play games with other people are predictable. And those of us prone to getting sucked into the games and taken advantage of also follow predictable patterns. It is not all people or even all MM. And it is people who have nothing to do with affairs of the heart. JJ - by the way, I gave up trying to collect from people who cheated me in my business. They have no intention of paying and I came to feel it was better for me to learn and move on. I am developing better boundaries and a quicker BS-reflex.
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 My original point was that people who play games with other people are predictable. And those of us prone to getting sucked into the games and taken advantage of also follow predictable patterns. It is not all people or even all MM. And it is people who have nothing to do with affairs of the heart. I think the above was clear and I think it is clear to those posting here. However, I'm not sure it has nothing to do with affairs of the heart. First, some OW/OM very much have their hearts involved with MM/MW who never plan to leave their M but still are interested in what they get from the A. Some may have given their heart to a player. Second, not all people are capable of the same depths of loving others. I think there is a whole spectrum and even broken people who use others may be capable of some kind of love, even if it is inadequate and doesn't compare at all in depth to what others can give. For them, they still may have their heart involved. In some cases, sure, it really is a game and they are not at all emotionally invested. However, that does not mean that for some who are emotionally invested at some level, that their actions and consequences to to others cannot be more of less the same as if they were just a "player". Bottom line: I think it is possible to treat others like a scumbag would and to have feelings. MM/MW who fall into this category may cause a lot of pain to others.
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 Bottom line: I think it is possible to treat others like a scumbag would and to have feelings. MM/MW who fall into this category may cause a lot of pain to others. Interesting. Good point. I agree that the pattern of hurting others might not be exclusively that of the heartless game-playing scumbag. There are a lot of broken people who just don't know the right way to love or to try and get their needs met. Another bottom line perhaps is that love is a big risk.
woinlove Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Another bottom line perhaps is that love is a big risk. Yes, but I think it is more of a risk with a MM/MW. I've always fallen in love easily, but it usually takes me a long time to really love. Of course, even the in love feelings, without true love, can cause one a lot of grief. But over the years I've finally learned to put what I call in-love-without-true-love into perspective. It is fun, exciting and one can learn new things, but, in the final analysis, it is the ones I really, truly love who mean the most and who have helped me become who I want to be.
Author Sharon1961 Posted February 20, 2011 Author Posted February 20, 2011 Yes, but I think it is more of a risk with a MM/MW. I've always fallen in love easily, but it usually takes me a long time to really love. Of course, even the in love feelings, without true love, can cause one a lot of grief. But over the years I've finally learned to put what I call in-love-without-true-love into perspective. It is fun, exciting and one can learn new things, but, in the final analysis, it is the ones I really, truly love who mean the most and who have helped me become who I want to be. I think that's very wise. Yes, it can be fun but it doesn't have to be everything. It can take a really long time to really know someone.
OWoman Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 hmmm... "nice MM", that's an interesting concept Yep. All of my fMMs were at the very least "nice", or I wouldn't have wasted any time with them. I don't do sleezebags, losers, tax cheats or playas. I am only attracted to honourable men. As are many other OW. I'm not sure what you find "predictable" - the experience you describe doesn't fit any of my past As at all.
findingnemo Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Yes, but I think it is more of a risk with a MM/MW. I've always fallen in love easily, but it usually takes me a long time to really love. Of course, even the in love feelings, without true love, can cause one a lot of grief. But over the years I've finally learned to put what I call in-love-without-true-love into perspective. It is fun, exciting and one can learn new things, but, in the final analysis, it is the ones I really, truly love who mean the most and who have helped me become who I want to be. Ain't that the truth? So many times we "make" ourselves fall in love when we should be having fun. If we do not take it for granted that every R is based on love, it may be easier to avoid getting hurt. Kinda like owning a business and refusing to give credit on principle. No credit = no pain. What some would call a scumbag may actually be an MP who is into the A for fun but the AP falls in love and things get complicated from there. There are lots of MPs who are like that and are usually serial cheaters. And as others have said, it is such scumbags that make most come to LS. As to "nice MMs", they do exist in my experience.
tami-chan Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 I do believe that there are nice, honorable people who find themselves attracted to people outside their marriage or committed relationship. But it comes down to how it is handled. I agree. Calling people scumbags(because they cheated on their spouses) and such is unnecessary, although I understand the "need" for others to do so. My feelings about marriage vary. I wonder if it is realistic to sign a legal document saying you will be with someone for always. How can we know that we will change in the same ways or want the same things down the road? I, too, have mixed feelings about marriage for the same reason as you-is it really realistic to promise "forever" to someone? I don't think so...but then again all great love stories have that "forever" element...so one hopes... It seems entirely possible to me that some people really want the commitment with the other person when they make it but change. I will go an extra mile and say it IS entirely possible that a person can sincerely make a commitment at one point to another and change his mind down the road. It has happened many, many times. And what does it say about our society that people are still making such a commitment when it has been proven that a good deal of the time it doesn't work out well?? Should vows even say "forever" anymore?? It is something to strive for, no doubt. I just cannot stand it when the "betrayed" throws that "forever" stuff to the WS....painful and oh so deliberately naive... So, yes, a good and decent person might change their mind and/or meet someone they think is better suited to them. I am sure there are people, when faced with this, that are honorable in their handling of such a situation. In a perfect world, yes. However, in most cases, people are more conflicted and are unsure-if they weren't they would be able to make quick, cut and dry decisions. But often, because they are decent and caring people the desire to "not hurt" and the desire to please one's self comes to a head that the lines of demarcation are blurred. But there are also a lot of scumbags who cause a boatload of pain for everyone involved. And those victims are the ones who come to a place like LS. Yup. And those are the stories we hear in the media and books because drama/conflict sells and entertains. I am not sure exactly what you mean by the above paragraph. Those people (whether they consider themselves victims or not-I don't know) are here because their stories are not out in the media. They are here because they want their pain and conflict expressed anonymously on the net-and get some perspective, hopefully from good-meaning people. Are you saying that those people should "quiet down"? that they should live their lives more "drama-free" ...what are you saying?
OWoman Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 As to "nice MMs", they do exist in my experience. And in mine. But I don't hang out with scumbags, whether MMs or SGs or anything else, so it figures that the MMs I have chosen to involve myself with would be "nice" and not "scumbags". Why would anyone choose to hang out with scumbags?
tami-chan Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 And in mine. But I don't hang out with scumbags, whether MMs or SGs or anything else, so it figures that the MMs I have chosen to involve myself with would be "nice" and not "scumbags". Why would anyone choose to hang out with scumbags? or fight to remain married to one?
OWoman Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 or fight to remain married to one? Good point! (nice to see you btw tami! )
tami-chan Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Good point! (nice to see you btw tami! ) hey OW! nice to "see" you too! !!!
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