The one's that appreciate Nice Guys - Ignorance Is Bliss

[sweetjasmine]

No, the only difference between the two is that women gave the first guy a chance, so he didn't become bitter.

 

So in other words, in my one specific example, it's MY fault that Niceguy punched someone else in the arm. I should've said yes when he asked me to prom. If I had said yes, he wouldn't have gotten angry and wouldn't have punched my friend in the arm. His life would be roses, sunshine, and rainbows.

 

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. It must be my duty to sleep with every guy who wants to sleep with me. If I say no, I risk turning them into bitter niceguys. This is what happens when you stop teaching civics in high school, I guess.

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

So in other words, in my one specific example, it's MY fault that Niceguy punched someone else in the arm. I should've said yes when he asked me to prom. If I had said yes, he wouldn't have gotten angry and wouldn't have punched my friend in the arm. His life would be roses, sunshine, and rainbows.

 

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. It must be my duty to sleep with every guy who wants to sleep with me. If I say no, I risk turning them into bitter niceguys. This is what happens when you stop teaching civics in high school, I guess.

 

Why are you comparing me to some other dude? I don't even know you, or him!

 

People become bitter in different ways. And I channel my bitterness into a lot of my songwriting (I'm a musician.) Other people might punch somebody.

 

Either way, I'm still sitting at home on a Saturday night, being 28 and never having kissed a girl. That sucks, in case you haven't picked up on that yet. And it's not a case of bitterness, it's loneliness.

[Alexz]

"- Listens to what other people say and takes into consideration that his perceptions may not be 100% accurate"

 

Thats me. Actually, I'm not sure. I just know I'm an accommodating introvert.

 

 

 

I noticed, the women that generally like my type have seen what douchebags most men are and they drift towards the nice guy who just wants to be kind and down to earth, drama-free and lacking of superficiality. Takes time, but most people realize what they want in a relationship at some point in their lives.

[somedude81]

Meaning I've met men who haven't had much success and have felt frustrated but who didn't turn into niceguys.

Oh you're just defining what a nice guy is.

 

Another time was way back in high school. Niceguy asked me out to prom, and I gently and politely said no, tried very hard not to hurt his feelings. He was so frustrated and angry about it that later that day, he punched a mutual friend of ours in the arm over some unrelated mini-argument. She was shocked. How "nice" of him.

Punched a girl in the arm because you said no. How would anybody think to call him a nice guy?

The message that sends is, "I was only being nice to you so that I could get you to spread your legs." How's that nicer than the d-bag at da club who's playing women?

And that's the typical female response.

 

I would say that 99.9% of men want to sleep with their female friends. That is how men are.

 

What that response really means is that the woman did not value the friendship at all. If all the man wanted was sex, why would they even become close friends and create bonds. Who knows what else what things he did for her because she was a friend. No it all doesn't matter because he wanted to sleep with her. That's all he wanted

How many times does it have to be said?

 

Men don't wake up bitter and resentful. It's a learned habit.

No. It's an effective coping tool.

 

That's a rude thing to say.

 

Nobody chooses to be bitter. My life would be so much easier and enjoyable if I could dissolve the anger.

Edited February 20, 2011 by somedude81

[sweetjasmine]

Why are you comparing me to some other dude? I don't even know you, or him!

 

You said that the only difference between a nice guy and a niceguy was that women gave the former a shot. It stands to reason that it's a woman's fault if she rejects a guy, and he acts out. You're saying that men become bitter niceguys because women reject them, aren't you? Wouldn't that then make it women's responsibility to just say yes to everyone, lest they become bitter?

 

Either way, I'm still sitting at home on a Saturday night, being 28 and never having kissed a girl. That sucks, in case you haven't picked up on that yet. And it's not a case of bitterness, it's loneliness.

 

It does suck. It sucks big time. I have a friend - a female friend - who's a bit younger but in a similar boat. What isn't going to help you is making sweeping generalizations about how women are to blame for your problems and how women are too stupid to know the difference between a jerk and a normal assertive man. Everyone needs to vent, but the problem with doing that here is that most people will use the responses that they get to validate their negative beliefs and justify staying in a slump. It's up to you, though. YMMV.

[sweetjasmine]

What that response really means is that the woman did not value the friendship at all. If all the man wanted was sex, why would they even become close friends and create bonds. Who knows what else what things he did for her because she was a friend. No it all doesn't matter because he wanted to sleep with her. That's all he wanted

 

Um, somedude, you straight-up said that you don't want to be friends unless she sleeps with you. That's clearly suggesting that you were only nice to her in order to get into her pants, and since she's not giving it up, you don't want anything to do with her anymore.

 

And why would a man become close friends and create bonds if all he wanted was sex? Because that's what niceguys usually do: they're a friend to you, but they get upset if you won't sleep with them in return for the companionship they've provided. That's essentially what you did.

 

I know that your reason for not wanting to be friends with her was that it was too painful for you. But that's not what anyone on the receiving end of "I don't want to be friends unless you sleep with me" is going to hear, regardless of what set of genitals they have between their legs.

[somedude81]

You said that the only difference between a nice guy and a niceguy was that women gave the former a shot. It stands to reason that it's a woman's fault if she rejects a guy, and he acts out. You're saying that men become bitter niceguys because women reject them, aren't you? Wouldn't that then make it women's responsibility to just say yes to everyone, lest they become bitter?

Funny how you mention that.

 

Several terrible incidents would not have happened if women gave more men a chance.

 

One example, George Sodini

 

Though I think it's more about a problem with western society and not up to an individual woman.

[Bj099235]

I just think most women are not attracted to passive and overly nice guys. I don't think it's has much to do with being turned off by manipulative behavior, since most people are manipulative, just in different ways.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Bj099235

[P&R]

Funny how you mention that.

 

Several terrible incidents would not have happened if women gave more men a chance.

 

One example, George Sodini

 

Though I think it's more about a problem with western society and not up to an individual woman.

That shooting did not happen because women didn't give Sodini a shot. It happened because of a crazed psychopath... Jesus dude.

 

Maybe you need to stop blaming others and start focusing on bettering yourself.

[P&R]

The pattern that seems to happen is:

 

Alpha Male

 

- Raised to disrespect women and treat them as sex objects

- Women are attracted to said disrespect and his narcissistic, cocky personality

- Alpha male gets lots of dates

 

Nice guy

 

- Is raised with good morals and values

- Treats women with kindness and acts like a total gentleman

- Is sweet

- Women react negatively to said traits, because they view niceness as passivity

- Nice guy gets frustrated and begins to question why he's single

- He wonders if he was raised with the wrong values?

- He becomes increasingly bitter about it

 

That is, in essence, what creates the bitterness in nice guys. Women create it. Not the guy themselves.

Also seriously... why do you think you haven't had a date at the age of 28? There is a good reason why. Simply put... you're too passive.

[LeaningIntoTheMuse]

Also seriously... why do you think you haven't had a date at the age of 28? There is a good reason why. Simply put... you're too passive.

 

Is every single dateless guy too passive?

 

Let's say I looked like Brad Pitt. Would I have trouble getting women, if I had the same personality/passivity?

[kdark]

This is a subject I feel women will never truly be able empathize what it is like for a guy to have to deal with something like this.

 

The feeling of being completely invisible/unappealing to the opposite sex takes a heavy toll on a person's psyche, especially if that has been one's experience their entire life.

[I Luv the Chariot OH]

All of these "nice guy" threads are too much. Do you men honestly believe women just look at you, see a "nice" guy, and say forget it, I need a jerk? Obviously there's something else you're lacking that causing your lack of success.

 

My man is the most stereotypically "nice guy" ever. But guess what? He has a ton of other amazing qualities that I love, so the "niceness" wasn't really a factor (at least not a major one) in my "choosing" him.

 

Instead of focussing on why nobody wants you because you're "nice" (lol), why not spend that time trying to make yourself more attractive and desirable in other ways?

[kdark]

All of these "nice guy" threads are too much. Do you men honestly believe women just look at you, see a "nice" guy, and say forget it, I need a jerk? Obviously there's something else you're lacking that causing your lack of success.

 

My man is the most stereotypically "nice guy" ever. But guess what? He has a ton of other amazing qualities that I love, so the "niceness" wasn't really a factor (at least not a major one) in my "choosing" him.

 

Instead of focussing on why nobody wants you because you're "nice" (lol), why not spend that time trying to make yourself more attractive and desirable in other ways?

 

The problem I used to have wasn't an absense of qualitlies women find attractive, it was just that I didn't know how advertise said qualities to the women I liked.

[Cracker Jack]

All of these "nice guy" threads are too much. Do you men honestly believe women just look at you, see a "nice" guy, and say forget it, I need a jerk? Obviously there's something else you're lacking that causing your lack of success.

 

My man is the most stereotypically "nice guy" ever. But guess what? He has a ton of other amazing qualities that I love, so the "niceness" wasn't really a factor (at least not a major one) in my "choosing" him.

 

Instead of focussing on why nobody wants you because you're "nice" (lol), why not spend that time trying to make yourself more attractive and desirable in other ways?

 

Good advice.

 

A while back, I often tried to use that (IE Women aren't attracted to me because I'm nice and open) excuse to justify why I've had dating woes, and now as I look back on it, all I can do is lol. It was often easy for me to blame my issues on it, so I kept doing it till I realized how pointless it was.

 

Still not sure how to make myself more desirable at this point, but I know it'll take some time. It really sucks never experiencing what it's like to have a girlfriend, when there are people much younger than me who have, but I just have to let it go and focus on the present.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Cracker Jack

[fortyninethousand322]

Is every single dateless guy too passive?

 

Let's say I looked like Brad Pitt. Would I have trouble getting women, if I had the same personality/passivity?

 

Yes. Most definitely.

[sweetjasmine]

The feeling of being completely invisible/unappealing to the opposite sex takes a heavy toll on a person's psyche, especially if that has been one's experience their entire life.

 

I've felt that way. I wasn't one of those girls who started dating at age 12 and always had a bunch of guys hanging around wanting to date me. It hurts, but instead of thinking "only the cheerleaders get boyfriends - guys are stupid!!" or "only girls with fake tans and fake nails get boyfriends because guys love fake girls!!" I said f- it and focused on activities that made me happy and on hanging out with friends. It put me in a better place, mentally, and it made me a lot better at talking to people and connecting with them.

 

And don't think that this problem only exists for men. A female friend of mine is in the same boat. She's in her mid-20s and has never dated anyone. She's petite, and her face is cute. She's very out-going and has a great personality. She's not negative or mean. I honestly have no idea why she's had so much trouble even finding one date, and she has a tendency to fixate on people who aren't interested in her or available. But despite the pain it causes her, she doesn't blame men and she just keeps going on with her life.

 

The problem I used to have wasn't an absense of qualitlies women find attractive, it was just that I didn't know how advertise said qualities to the women I liked.

 

Exactly. This is why it's so frustrating to read, "I'm smart and well-read and sweet and nice and sensitive, but I GUESS WOMEN LIKE A-HOLES WHO WILL SCREW THEM, PUNCH THEM IN THE FACE, AND NEVER CALL BACK. I don't want to change so I'm going to die utterly alone." It's absolutely not true. It's insulting to women like me who have SOs or have dated men with those qualities. The problem isn't that you have those qualities. It's likely with how you're presenting yourself or interacting with people.

 

Often, learning how to talk to people - men and women - in a situation where there's no tension or romantic/sexual interest helps a lot. It makes people a little more comfortable with social interaction, which makes approaching a potential date less intimidating. What doesn't help is blaming an entire gender for not going after you.

[somedude81]

Is every single dateless guy too passive?

 

Let's say I looked like Brad Pitt. Would I have trouble getting women, if I had the same personality/passivity?

 

 

Yes. Most definitely.

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

 

If he looked like Brad Pitt, women would be throwing themselves at him. He'd have to actively fight off their advances if he didn't want women.

 

(To anybody whose going to post to say how they are not attracted to Brad Pitt; save it)

 

There is no doubt in my mind that if I were three inches taller (putting me at 5'9) and slightly better looking , I would be immensely more successful with women.

Edited February 20, 2011 by somedude81

[runner]

Yes. Most definitely.

 

i second this.

[somedude81]

And don't think that this problem only exists for men. A female friend of mine is in the same boat. She's in her mid-20s and has never dated anyone. She's petite, and her face is cute. She's very out-going and has a great personality. She's not negative or mean. I honestly have no idea why she's had so much trouble even finding one date, and she has a tendency to fixate on people who aren't interested in her or available. But despite the pain it causes her, she doesn't blame men and she just keeps going on with her life.

How odd that your friend seems to have so much trouble. It's definitely out of the norm for women to be dateless.

 

When you say that she's petite, how short are we talking here? You also didn't mention anything about how heavy she is. If she's a petite plus size that would help explain why.

 

The next issues are on how she interacts with men. How does she let men know she's single? What are her standards like?

 

Exactly. This is why it's so frustrating to read, "I'm smart and well-read and sweet and nice and sensitive, but I GUESS WOMEN LIKE A-HOLES WHO WILL SCREW THEM, PUNCH THEM IN THE FACE, AND NEVER CALL BACK. I don't want to change so I'm going to die utterly alone." It's absolutely not true. It's insulting to women like me who have SOs or have dated men with those qualities. The problem isn't that you have those qualities. It's likely with how you're presenting yourself or interacting with people.

Blaming women is just a scapegoat. Those men are actually mad at and may hate themselves, which does wonders for their self-esteem.

 

And please don't pretend that being "smart and well-read and sweet and nice and sensitive" are qualities that women are attracted to. Sure they are a nice thing for a man to have, but it's not why you wanted to jump his bones.

 

Often, learning how to talk to people - men and women - in a situation where there's no tension or romantic/sexual interest helps a lot. It makes people a little more comfortable with social interaction, which makes approaching a potential date less intimidating.

That is how you made friends.

 

Learning how to communicate in situations where there is tension or romantic/sexual interest is extremely important. That is what separates somebody from being a horizontal mambo partner or a new book club buddy.

[sweetjasmine]

How odd that your friend seems to have so much trouble. It's definitely out of the norm for women to be dateless.

 

When you say that she's petite, how short are we talking here? You also didn't mention anything about how heavy she is. If she's a petite plus size that would help explain why.

 

I knew someone would ask that. She's 5'2" and weighs 115 pounds.

 

This just goes to prove that no one is automatically guaranteed anything from anyone else. I bet there's a 5'2" 150 lb woman out there in the world thinking all of her dating woes would be solved if she could just lose 40 pounds, and it just doesn't work that way.

 

The next issues are on how she interacts with men. How does she let men know she's single? What are her standards like?

 

Her standards are reasonable. She doesn't give off the "I'm unavailable" vibe.

 

And please don't pretend that being "smart and well-read and sweet and nice and sensitive" are qualities that women are attracted to. Sure they are a nice thing for a man to have, but it's not why you wanted to jump his bones.

 

I would've never jumped my SO's bones if he didn't have those qualities, and I was drawn to him because he was smart, had a great sense of humor, was able to talk to me about intellectual topics, and wasn't an arrogant pr-ck. But please, go ahead and tell everyone else what they find attractive. It's totally impossible that there are people out there who don't fit the preconceived stereotype in your head, right?

 

That is how you made friends.

 

Learning how to communicate in situations where there is tension or romantic/sexual interest is extremely important. That is what separates somebody from being a horizontal mambo partner or a new book club buddy.

 

Making friends teaches you how to set up a rapport with people, interact with them, connect with them, and get them to open up to you. If you don't have those skills, you will have an extremely difficult time connecting with someone where there is romantic/sexual interest.

[fortyninethousand322]

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

 

If he looked like Brad Pitt, women would be throwing themselves at him. He'd have to actively fight off their advances if he didn't want women.

 

(To anybody whose going to post to say how they are not attracted to Brad Pitt; save it)

 

There is no doubt in my mind that if I were three inches taller (putting me at 5'9) and slightly better looking , I would be immensely more successful with women.

 

Well I don't know if you have any experience in this matter but I'll tell you a little story.

 

Myself, I'm an inexperienced guy, 23 never had a girlfriend, kissed etc. I'm 5'11", I used to weigh 245 pounds, in other words I was very out of shape. A few years ago I lost weight and now weigh 175 pounds and am very much in shape, muscles six pack abs etc.. However, I have gotten less attention from girls now than I ever did when I was fat. Why? Because I have let a few bad experiences make me timid and unsure when it comes to talking to girls unless absolutely forced to. I have never had a girl throw herself at me, ever. And all of my friends, male and female have told me I'm a good looking guy. Trust me, it is passivity.

 

If you looked like Brad Pitt and never approached any women people would likely assume you were gay or some sort of deviant and that was why you were not talking to women.

[WTRanger]

The good ole niceguy thinking of that, "If I just punched women, I'd be getting laid more often." There is no difference between an outgoing d-bag and a passive niceguy. Both are just as equally manipulative, with the exception that the d-bag is more up front with it.

 

The passive niceguy thinks that by befriending the girl first and acting like her best girlfriend with a penis and listening to all of her emotional baggage that it will lead to sex.

 

The d-bag thinks that by paying for the most expensive dish and the most expensive restaurant that he'll get first-date anal.

 

The only real difference is the niceguy takes the passive road which fails 100% of the time and the d-bag takes an active approach which, while as scummy as it is, carries at least a chance of success. But both are manipulative losers.

 

Look at it this way. Even if you are blind, you at least have a chance at hitting a baseball if you just step up to the plate and start swinging. You'll never hit a ball if you hang back in the dugout.

 

I can bet without a shadow of a doubt, that if you looked like Brad Pitt but just sat in the dark corner booth at a bar. NO women would approach you. The PASSIVE APPROACH DOES NOT WORK. If you are at a club, I bet you that you can get laid if you just went up to a girl and asked her for sex. You'll get shot down many times, but there will be that one girl that will do you. However, you'll never have a chance if you just stand in the corner and think, "Boy, I hope I can have sex tonight."

[carhill]

OP, I'm a bit unclear about the relevance of ignorance, especially juxtaposed to mental and/or emotional intelligence, wrt to this dynamic, but I can ad datapoints that the women I've dated about whom I have the most positive memories are those who were from a similar socio-economic and familial background. Having time since my marriage ended and a lot of datapoints to reflect upon due to being single for many years, that's the one commonality I've found.

 

I think a wide range of women *appreciate* a good man, but the rules of attraction still apply. If the man is not attractive to her, he's not, whether he's a good man or not. It's singular and specific, to her and to him. As the vast majority of dates and meetings and encounters IME did not result in any long-term involvement, it's safe to say that attraction played a role in that dynamic.

 

My mistake was, due to lack of success over the years, straying from my 'standards' and giving a wider range of personality types who appreciated my style 'a chance'. This was unhealthy for two reasons: it took time, energy and investment away from pursuit of those who met the standards, as well as created unhealthy and ultimately incompatible relationships. In the case of this example, the 'standards' are defined as above, being from similar socio-economic and familial backgrounds.

 

The good news, IMO, for the young guys on the thread who are frustrated, is two-fold: First, you're not alone. There are many men who share your frustrations. I have a few friends my age who still are frustrated and they come from surprisingly stable backgrounds. Second, you will gain experience and, with that experience, you'll come to realize the relative importance of this dynamic in the wholeness of life. What may seem like a insurmountable mountain at this point will appear as little more than a small rise when you stand at the top, the top meaning having had the experiences.

 

I would venture a guess that a 'good woman', who was socialized in a stable environment and with the values that a puportedly good man is presented to exhibit, in this thread, has seen plenty of 'experience', both negative and positive, similar to how a good man has. What she does with that experience defines her. Is she ignorant? I doubt it. Is she blissful? If she accepts her path, and seeks a mate compatible with that path, I daresay she may exhibit happiness, which is always an attractive quality.

 

So, as I drink chamomille tea with my cat curled next to me on a sunny Sunday morning, these are my thoughts. The other side can be a quite peaceful place. Enjoy the ride. It's quite brief. Good luck OP

[Ay Diesel T]

The good ole niceguy thinking of that, "If I just punched women, I'd be getting laid more often." There is no difference between an outgoing d-bag and a passive niceguy. Both are just as equally manipulative, with the exception that the d-bag is more up front with it.

 

The passive niceguy thinks that by befriending the girl first and acting like her best girlfriend with a penis and listening to all of her emotional baggage that it will lead to sex.

 

The d-bag thinks that by paying for the most expensive dish and the most expensive restaurant that he'll get first-date anal.

 

The only real difference is the niceguy takes the passive road which fails 100% of the time and the d-bag takes an active approach which, while as scummy as it is, carries at least a chance of success. But both are manipulative losers.

 

Look at it this way. Even if you are blind, you at least have a chance at hitting a baseball if you just step up to the plate and start swinging. You'll never hit a ball if you hang back in the dugout.

 

I can bet without a shadow of a doubt, that if you looked like Brad Pitt but just sat in the dark corner booth at a bar. NO women would approach you. The PASSIVE APPROACH DOES NOT WORK. If you are at a club, I bet you that you can get laid if you just went up to a girl and asked her for sex. You'll get shot down many times, but there will be that one girl that will do you. However, you'll never have a chance if you just stand in the corner and think, "Boy, I hope I can have sex tonight."

 

Cats are scared of rejection lol, why? The only times I've been unsuccessful in my approach is if the woman has a boyfriend/husband/ or she just broke up/ or if she's really insecure about me being a player. Besides that, I usually get the number and a date. It not that hard...