kdark Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 The topic of who pays always turns into a ridiculous gender war on this site. I haven't read all of this one particular thread, but I'm sure it's just more of the same. I honestly rarely ever meet women who actually give a crap about who pays on a first date, other than not wanting the person they are on a date with to think they are a pushover or a freeloader. If a women is having a fit and feeling resentful because I want to go dutch on a first or second date, then I couldn't care less if whether or not she wants a second date because I know she isn't a woman I would want to have as a lifelong partner. I've dated a gold digger before, and after maxing out a credit card and coming up short on rent because she would only be in a good mood if I took her out to fancy restaurants, and made it very clear that her happiness was tied to how many things I bought for her, I now only go on dates with women who show concern for my financial well being. And just because I have to pay on a first date, doesn't mean she has no concern for my financial well being. Just like if a guy asks you to go dutch or asks you to pick up the tab, doesn't mean he thinks you are nothing special to him. Which is more important? The woman wanting to feel special, feminine, and important enough for a guy to spend his cash on? Or the man wanting to feel like more than just a cash dispenser for a freeloader? To me, both genders need to just suck it up and stop placing such importance on such a minor thing. Stop reading into all these little things that in the grand scheme of things don't matter. Anyone trying to extrapolate such grand theories about the opposite sex from such a small gesture like paying on a first date needs to start judging people on an individual basis rather than painting with such broad strokes.
kdark Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Well, I AM very pretty. Haha. I'm pretty too. And I have my head on straight. You going to start paying for my dates now?
Knittress Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I'm pretty too. And I have my head on straight. You going to start paying for my dates now? As long as you buy the first round of Pabst, I'll treat you like a prince!
TheBigQuestion Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 In the case of going dutch, I have no problem dutch after the first and second dates. I have no problem paying for myself but, quoting the words of Nexus_One, I think it's about seeing whether the other person is relationship worthy. This is utter nonsense. How does it make sense to expect a guy to pay for you on the first two dates but go dutch afterwards? If anything it should be the opposite. The two people are practically strangers on the first two dates. It's statements like that which will make people think that women are just looking for a free ride and free meals when it comes to dating. I'm not necessarily implying that this is your motivation, but a sensible person could easily make that inference.
sally4sara Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I can live with whoever asks pay even though chances r men r gonna be the ones asking anyway. What I can't live with is sexism in that a man has to pay because a woman's time is worth more. As though you hadn't already made obvious the fact you prefer to be the sexist one in the mix. I'll care when you're bothered my sexism all together. Thats the difference between being bitter and being fair.
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Maybe you don't understand because you're not a woman, eh? Your rationale is based on a lot of masculine traits - proving oneself, striving towards a goal, a stubborn sort of emotional independence... Feminine energy wants to be cherished and protected, develop emotional interdependence and community, and provide emotional support to others. Everyone has a bit of both, and both are necessary in the world. Why would you expect a woman to be just like YOU? That makes no sense. Vive la difference. Please stop equating femininity with immaturity. A woman is not a child. Softness is not stupidity, and a disinterest in typically masculine goal-driven thinking does not not signal an inability in taking care of oneself - merely a prioritization of the journey over the destination. It's different, but that doesn't mean you should automatically disrespect it. You honestly seem smarter than that. If femininity is all about taking and receiving then I look down on femininity. What a parasitic self centered belief. I laughed when u equated selfishness with self-generosity. Hilarious. I see that bernie maddoff wasn't a criminal. He was just being very generous to himself. Lol
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 As though you hadn't already made obvious the fact you prefer to be the sexist one in the mix. I'll care when you're bothered my sexism all together. Thats the difference between being bitter and being fair. How am I sexist, dear sally?
PJKino Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I thought women dont want to be put on a pedestal? Thats what paying before you know if that persons relationship worthy is
Woggle Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 For the record once I am involved with a woman I spend on her with no problem. I love to spoil my wife because she truly appreciates it and I know she would do the same for me. What I do have an issue with is throwing away big money on a woman before I know her true intentions. It's not even about gender and it can apply to lifer in general. I don't invest in people too much until they prove themselves trustworthy.
SteveC80 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 For the record once I am involved with a woman I spend on her with no problem. I love to spoil my wife because she truly appreciates it and I know she would do the same for me. What I do have an issue with is throwing away big money on a woman before I know her true intentions. It's not even about gender and it can apply to lifer in general. I don't invest in people too much until they prove themselves trustworthy. thats the funny part they want the man to pay and prove himself relationship worthy yet the man has to assume from the start the womens worthy of these things can u say narcisists
kdark Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 thats the funny part they want the man to pay and prove himself relationship worthy yet the man has to assume from the start the womens worthy of these things can u say narcisists No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to date women who expect the man to pay on a first date.
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 thats the funny part they want the man to pay and prove himself relationship worthy yet the man has to assume from the start the womens worthy of these things can u say narcisists I used to think that most women were narcissistic. But I realized that they are more childish than intentionally selfish. They seem to simply be naturally logically deficient like children. Of course the same pattern can also be found in some men. But its mostly prevalent among women.
alexandria35 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I think it's funny how often men complain that woman apparently feel a sense of entitlement to be treated in a certain way. I don't think it has anything to do with a sense of entitlement, I think it all goes back to biology and the social development of our species. The 'gentlemanly' behaviours and character traits mentioned came about from the inequality of the sexes throughout the history of time. Males have been dominant over females since human beings first existed over 2 million years ago (or longer according to some scientists). 'Modern' females started pushing seriously for 'equality' only 100 years ago and modern men 'pretend' that they want women to share the burden of 'manhood'. There is an imbalance because biology and human society (mostly run by men) created it that way and because men are not happy about letting go of their superior position. Human males have been the providers and protectors of human females for 1999900+ years. To those of you who are expecting things to change overnight - 'dream on'. Things are changing very slowly but old habits die hard. The irony is that I can just imagine the outcry there would be if women really did start acting like men. We'd have threads all over LS asking "where did all the real women go", "what happened to feminine girls", "why does my girlfriend have to act like a man" etc etc etc. So any system you see as unfair, was actually created and perpetuated for generations by men and it isn't going to disappear any time soon. Okay first of all I think the above was a great response. The custom of the male courting the female by paying for dates and bringing gifts goes back many many generations and wasn't invented by women. Secondly it is very narrow minded and naive to label all women as selfish gold diggers simply because she has an expectation of her date to pay for her too. Maybe some women are selfish gold diggers, but not most, and there are plenty of guys who are more than happy to use a woman for all she has too. I have had a few longterm relationships where the guy has turned into a major financial drain on me. Immature selfish men who spend spend spend without thought for anyone but themselves. My personal finances usually improve a lot when I'm single. I live in Canada and it has been my experience that the man always pays for the first date (provided that he's the one that asked for the date). I would be shocked to be expected to go dutch on the first date. I am not a princess and I have no problem paying my own way and I have no problem paying for the man too. My experience has been to take turns paying the whole bill, not going dutch. I am not a selfish self-centered princess, I am very generous but it would still seem very odd to me to be going Dutch on the first date. I don't understand why a man would be offended about paying for that first date either. It's only a date, one would assume you're not investing your life savings into it. If you date the woman a couple of times and she never reciprocates and comes across as selfish then you can assume that she's not a good prospect and move on.
daphne Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Jesus Daphne. Read my reply again, it was a question, not an accusation. Besides I never implied you were a gold digger. You and the other female forum member did seem to say/imply that men who go Dutch on dates are selfish and bitter. So I asked if that was REALLY what you both intended to say or if I interpreted that wrongly. No reason for calling names. Please quote me where I said that. And to be honest, most of the guys on this thread do sound fairly bitter. Also, in my experience, guys that go dutch do not make good partners. There is something beautiful in the dance between men and women when they actually act like men and women. Not all trying to act like men. Where did I call names? If you mean my last statement, tripe is not a person. It means rubbish. It wasn't simply directed at you (however you did basically throw the first stone.) It was aimed at the nonsensical misogyny I see on this board consistently. There is no reasonability, no ability to see beyond gender or that there are 2 sides to the whole mating game. And men are aggressively angrier about it than women. If you could see how dysfunctional it sounds, you would understand. But you were a part of it, at least on this thread. Plus, the manipulation at someone who disagrees with you (not you personally) is pretty high on here. I must say, that I thank god daily that the men I date aren't represented on these boards or I'd be celibate forever expecting blood from a turnip. Warmth from a male. Or god forbid, love, respect and openness.
Woggle Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I have one question. Since some women in this thread are so much about men playing their role why do so many women get such an attitude when they expected to play their traditional role?
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Okay first of all I think the above was a great response. The custom of the male courting the female by paying for dates and bringing gifts goes back many many generations and wasn't invented by women. Yes, chronic self-entitlement of women is partially the fault of men. Modern women are like men's Frankensteins. Maybe some women are selfish gold diggers, but not most, and there are plenty of guys who are more than happy to use a woman for all she has too Except men dont justify men who use women. Even men who use women know what they are doing is wrong. On the other hand, women justify women who use men by saying that women deserve it and its men's job to please women. Imagine the outrage when a man says, "Im entitled to get a blowjob on the first few dates. I deserve to be treated like a man." Edited February 17, 2011 by musemaj11
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 If you're really trying to figure out motive, UF, in a serious way, rather than just to fuss, I'll give it a whirl: Personally, it's not really about money, but yes, I find that most of the men I'd like (who make more than me because basically everybody in my dating pool does, as I'm a teacher in a Southern state where they aren't well-paid at all) are going to come into a 1st date expecting to pay. They do so as a sign of their interest. This wouldn't likely apply to the UK the way it does to the American South. I don't mind paying for my BF either, but a man on an early date -- who lived where I live, especially one who knew I was a teacher and likely made 2x-3x what I do -- who made a big fuss about going dutch would pop up a red flag. Not because I care about the money, but because the many men (in this region--the American South) I know who are awesome would never even THINK of letting a girl they really liked pay her way on an early date. They'll trip all over themselves to pay and feel badly if you insist on splitting it. At least, I have many male friends who have professed that. (However, if they don't really dig the girl, they think going dutch is awesome.) I kind of see where your coming from. Going dutch makes you feel the guys interest level is lower. I suppose it would be very confusing because sometimes that is the case, and sometimes not. There are lots of guys like me that have in the past been with women who where primarily money motivated. I'm very sensitive to these issues because I've literally been ripped off in the past, and dating costs a lot of money. In regards to salary... I don't pay attention to it on the first date or so. Once in a relationship that changes. Maybe you don't understand because you're not a woman, eh? Your rationale is based on a lot of masculine traits - proving oneself, striving towards a goal, a stubborn sort of emotional independence... Feminine energy wants to be cherished and protected, develop emotional interdependence and community, and provide emotional support to others. Everyone has a bit of both, and both are necessary in the world. Why would you expect a woman to be just like YOU? That makes no sense. Vive la difference. Please stop equating femininity with immaturity. A woman is not a child. Softness is not stupidity, and a disinterest in typically masculine goal-driven thinking does not not signal an inability in taking care of oneself - merely a prioritization of the journey over the destination. It's different, but that doesn't mean you should automatically disrespect it. You honestly seem smarter than that. I get the direction your going with this, but I need more specifics to be honest. I already understand that from a more feminine standpoint these issues seem different, but as you say each person is a mix of both. I feel a distinct difference between being cherished and being bought. If someone I've just met buys me dinner I feel indebted and infantile... not cherished and protected. I may feel those things if someone I KNOW buys me dinner... but not on a 1st-3rd date. What your saying makes sense to me and I can understand it. If you could just explain it more in context please. Thanks for posting what you have so far. It's good for me to think about.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I must say, that I thank god daily that the men I date aren't represented on these boards or I'd be celibate forever expecting blood from a turnip. Warmth from a male. Or god forbid, love, respect and openness. This is a semi-delusional statement. The men you date more than likely share some if not many of the same thoughts and feelings. They just keep that in the realm of "guy talk". Most men are like me. We do what works first, despite having reservations about it. It's similar to you actually thinking your BF/H likes the Honey-Do list you make for him. A good chunk of the list is probably just annoying.
Woggle Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 This is a semi-delusional statement. The men you date more than likely share some if not many of the same thoughts and feelings. They just keep that in the realm of "guy talk". Most men are like me. We do what works first, despite having reservations about it. It's similar to you actually thinking your BF/H likes the Honey-Do list you make for him. A good chunk of the list is probably just annoying. This is very true. There are things men usually say only in the company of other men. I imagine the same is true for women as well.
LittleTiger Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I have one question. Since some women in this thread are so much about men playing their role why do so many women get such an attitude when they expected to play their traditional role? Woggle, what exactly do you mean by women's traditional role? If you mean that she's the one who bears the children, spends more time looking after them than the man, earns less money because she's spending more time at home with the kids (or because there is still inequality in the workplace) and puts her partner's career before her own - this is still very much the role of most married/partnered women in modern society. I'm sure if you pay attention to the happily attached mature women on LS (many of whom don't visit the dating section) you'll find that they don't have an 'attitude'. This attitude and resentment seems to exist mostly amongst unattached younger people and bitter divorcees. I don't know for sure but I'd also stick my neck out and say that there is considerably more resentment from men on LS than there is from women. Although women in the western world are no longer prepared to accept the role of 'chattel' (and I'm sure you agree that's reasonable), most women are happy being women.
LittleTiger Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I must say, that I thank god daily that the men I date aren't represented on these boards or I'd be celibate forever expecting blood from a turnip. Warmth from a male. Or god forbid, love, respect and openness. Well, at the risk of making you LS guys feel really bad I think I'm obliged to tell you that there are actually men in the world as described by daphne - warm, loving, genuine, respectful, caring, open and honest - I call them gentleman and they treat women like ladies. Admittedly these kinds of men are very 'old fashioned' and, sadly, they're a dying breed.......but they do exist and women still want them. We would/do fight each other for men like this. FTR, there is nothing I would say to my female friends, that I wouldn't say to a man - absolutely nothing!
waynebrady Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Well, at the risk of making you LS guys feel really bad I think I'm obliged to tell you that there are actually men in the world as described by daphne - warm, loving, genuine, respectful, caring, open and honest - I call them gentleman and they treat women like ladies. Admittedly these kinds of men are very 'old fashioned' and, sadly, they're a dying breed.......but they do exist and women still want them. We would/do fight each other for men like this. FTR, there is nothing I would say to my female friends, that I wouldn't say to a man - absolutely nothing! Not all women deserve men like that, certenley not princesses like daphne(no offence). If you want men like that then what can you offer them back? Or is it just as I suspect infact a one way street... meaning you want the man to just give and give without getting anything back? Normal, down to earth women who are capable of reciprocating DEFENITLEY deserves a gentleman... Princessy women who want to be worshipped and want the man to put in all the effort does NOT deserve a gentleman. And you know what, I would GLADLY be a gentleman to a woman I like. I would be more than happy to pay for dates, pick her up, drive her home, open doors, pull out chairs, offer my coat if it's cold, and ALL that stuff... But certenley not to a woman who plays the hard to get game and wants to be put on a pedestal.
waynebrady Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Woggle, what exactly do you mean by women's traditional role? If you mean that she's the one who bears the children, spends more time looking after them than the man, earns less money because she's spending more time at home with the kids (or because there is still inequality in the workplace) and puts her partner's career before her own - this is still very much the role of most married/partnered women in modern society. I'm sure if you pay attention to the happily attached mature women on LS (many of whom don't visit the dating section) you'll find that they don't have an 'attitude'. This attitude and resentment seems to exist mostly amongst unattached younger people and bitter divorcees. I don't know for sure but I'd also stick my neck out and say that there is considerably more resentment from men on LS than there is from women. Although women in the western world are no longer prepared to accept the role of 'chattel' (and I'm sure you agree that's reasonable), most women are happy being women. And women who are not like that, really shouldn't expect the man to be traditional if she's not too... Too me it seems alot of you are traditional only when it suits you.
denise_xo Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Also, in my experience, guys that go dutch do not make good partners. There is something beautiful in the dance between men and women when they actually act like men and women. Not all trying to act like men. For me, paying my way is not 'trying to act like a man'. It's considering myself on equal footing to a man, and focusing that beautiful dance on something other than financial exchange.
waynebrady Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 This is a semi-delusional statement. The men you date more than likely share some if not many of the same thoughts and feelings. They just keep that in the realm of "guy talk". Most men are like me. We do what works first, despite having reservations about it. It's similar to you actually thinking your BF/H likes the Honey-Do list you make for him. A good chunk of the list is probably just annoying. I agree. But women don't want hear this for sure... They want to hear that men absolutley love to worship women and treat them like princesses and keep them on a pedestal And then when any man says he doesn't... then he's an angry misogynist.
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