Woggle Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I am not as extreme as Waynbrady but with all this talk about how women have a right to expect good treatment what do men have a right to expect? It seems like the women in this thread want men to do all the giving and for them to do all the taking. Do you seriously not understand why a man would have a problem with this?
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Even beyond the whole reasoning of it being entitled or just someone being traditional minded about the man/provider thing......... What does it indicate to a woman when a man pays the bill? In what way does this cull insincere suitors from the herd? Never once has paying prevented anyone from being an intolerable ass or an outright lying douche. Never once has it guaranteed the guy to be Mr. Perfect. Its like making all your relationship decisions with tarot cards. It just seems like such an easily navigated hurdle to proving ones worth to another that I can't see how it is successful. All him paying means is he wants to eventually have sex with you and if you require him to come out of pocket for it - he will. Perfectly said. It's the women who take splitting the check as a personal insult that suck.
Nexus One Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Whoah. WTF? How do you make that leap from what I said? Listen, I don't think you guys realize how bad you sound. I never mentioned anything about being bought. I like when guys do sweet, attentive things. Open the doors, pull my chair back. Personally, I do not like cheap skates because it does tend to send the message that they're not very giving in the relationship. And ultimately, it evens out and you do end up being more equitable. It's what is known as old fashioned. If you guys want to moan and complain that women actually have the self esteem to want better treatment from men, then go find a doormat. And carry on with the next step of how we're gold diggers. Cos anyone dating me is usually going to be the one digging for gold. Unreasonable misogynist tripe. Jesus Daphne. Read my reply again, it was a question, not an accusation. Besides I never implied you were a gold digger. You and the other female forum member did seem to say/imply that men who go Dutch on dates are selfish and bitter. So I asked if that was REALLY what you both intended to say or if I interpreted that wrongly. No reason for calling names.
waynebrady Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Again, aren't you the same guy who says he doesn't date? So, how would you know? I read this forum, I see TVshows/movies, General common sense, Traditions etc etc
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Jesus Daphne. Read my reply again, it was a question, not an accusation. Besides I never implied you were a gold digger. You and the other female forum member did seem to say/imply that men who go Dutch on dates are selfish and bitter I asked if that was REALLY what you both intended to say. No reason for calling names. Actually I want to know why a guy asking me out on a date, is asking me to pay my half? Certainly it doesn't make the men selfish and bitter, but it does make them look cheap in my eyes. Maybe this is the clear double standard for men.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 I read this forum, I see TVshows/movies, General common sense, Traditions etc etc So if it is justifiable for you to argue women are spoiled based on fictional interpretations of real life, then it is even more justifiable for us to argue why we're " entitled" ( because Disney says we are).
denise_xo Posted February 16, 2011 Posted February 16, 2011 Actually I want to know why a guy asking me out on a date, is asking me to pay my half? Certainly it doesn't make the men selfish and bitter, but it does make them look cheap in my eyes. Maybe this is the clear double standard for men. Well, where I live, the question would be turned on its head: Why should the man pay for me in the first place?
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Actually I want to know why a guy asking me out on a date, is asking me to pay my half? Certainly it doesn't make the men selfish and bitter, but it does make them look cheap in my eyes. Maybe this is the clear double standard for men. You either accept or not when someone asks. There is nothing magical about asking that requires someone to pay. Expecting someone to pay when you choose to go somewhere with them makes YOU cheap... not them. I can understand if your a very traditional girl... but that means you better be a virgin, not hold a job, and all of the other traditional stuff. I feel very comfortable being expected to pay in that kind of situation.
SteveC80 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 You either accept or not when someone asks. There is nothing magical about asking that requires someone to pay. Expecting someone to pay when you choose to go somewhere with them makes YOU cheap... not them. I can understand if your a very traditional girl... but that means you better be a virgin, not hold a job, and all of the other traditional stuff. I feel very comfortable being expected to pay in that kind of situation. they only want gender roles that benefit them
xpaperxcutx Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 You either accept or not when someone asks. There is nothing magical about asking that requires someone to pay. Expecting someone to pay when you choose to go somewhere with them makes YOU cheap... not them. I can understand if your a very traditional girl... but that means you better be a virgin, not hold a job, and all of the other traditional stuff. I feel very comfortable being expected to pay in that kind of situation. I never said I don't accept it, I just don't tolerate it. But I've also never been put in a situation where a guy ever asked me to pay. I would be more than happy to pay if I asked him out, but situations have always placed me in the position to accept/ reject , not ask.
SteveC80 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 But I've also never been put in a situation where a guy ever asked me to pay. I would be more than happy to pay if I asked him out, but situations have always placed me in the position to accept/ reject , not ask. which is why you women are slick with that its who asks garbage,you know 90% of the time its the man who initiates
Nexus One Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Actually I want to know why a guy asking me out on a date, is asking me to pay my half? Certainly it doesn't make the men selfish and bitter, but it does make them look cheap in my eyes. Maybe this is the clear double standard for men. To be equal partners in a relationship. For me it's not about the money, it's about that she's on equal footing with me. It's purely an equality thing, but meant in a good way. I don't want to her to have to feel below me in any way. If something is out of her budget range, then of course I'm not going to ask that from her. Personally I don't give a sh*t about money. If I was the one asking a girl/woman out I'd have no problem paying for it in full, it was my idea after all. Except many dates, often later in the relationship are planned together. Also bills can be shared 50/50. I also like the idea of picking up the tab interchangeably, one time me, one time her. What I would look at though is how she would respond to the suggestion to going Dutch or splitting bills. That says a lot about what I like to know about a person. Are you willing to share the load with me as your equal, even though I'm more than willing to share the full financial load.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I never said I don't accept it, I just don't tolerate it. But I've also never been put in a situation where a guy ever asked me to pay. I would be more than happy to pay if I asked him out, but situations have always placed me in the position to accept/ reject , not ask. There are two possible implications to accepting and invitation and not assisting with the bill. 1. You are considered incapable. Such as a child or someone in a greatly inferior position. 2. The invitation provides you no great benefit... as in you won't have a good time. If number 1 or 2 don't apply... I pay my own way no matter who asks. Maybe that's just because I have a high level of self respect.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 There are two possible implications to accepting and invitation and not assisting with the bill. 1. You are considered incapable. Such as a child or someone in a greatly inferior position. 2. The invitation provides you no great benefit... as in you won't have a good time. If number 1 or 2 don't apply... I pay my own way no matter who asks. Maybe that's just because I have a high level of self respect. Ugh no, neither applies to me because I date someone because I like them and want to get to know them. If they're asking me to dinner, I would gladly accept on the premise that I'm accepting them because I like the guy and not whether he's paying dinner and I'm getting a free meal ( I have no problem cooking my own meals and as in, I prefer to eat in, than out). Again I reiterate, I'm of the belief that who asks, pays. Provided that it is a date. If it isn't, then there's no way I'm going to make a friend pay. So what is it, are we hanging out as friends, or dating as potential mates?
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Men r natural givers due to social conditioning. I take happiness from treating someone else. But this forum has opened my eyes that actually women see me spending my hard earned money not as a special generosity from me but as something that they deserve to to get from me. It makes me sick to the stomach and this revelation has really affected my views of women in real life. Disgusting and saddening. I feel that women don't care about how men feel. They don't care everyone wants to feel appreciated even men.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Ugh no, neither applies to me because I date someone because I like them and want to get to know them. If they're asking me to dinner, I would gladly accept on the premise that I'm accepting them because I like the guy and not whether he's paying dinner and I'm getting a free meal ( I have no problem cooking my own meals and as in, I prefer to eat in, than out). Again I reiterate, I'm of the belief that who asks, pays. Provided that it is a date. If it isn't, then there's no way I'm going to make a friend pay. So what is it, are we hanging out as friends, or dating as potential mates? Ok to summarize, on a date you require a free meal because he asked you, but in a friend situation you don't mind splitting the check. So would it be fair to say that you are charging for the opportunity to be your GF or sexual partner? Do you consider it like an application fee?
xpaperxcutx Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Ok to summarize, on a date you require a free meal because he asked you, but in a friend situation you don't mind splitting the check. So would it be fair to say that you are charging for the opportunity to be your GF or sexual partner? Do you consider it like an application fee? I do say you are twisting my words. Where on earth, did I say buying me dinner is a fee to getting me into bed? And we're taking this way off topic. There was a post by Nexus_ one that I really liked- if the OP is upset about having to go dutch, then she has every right to suggest an alternative venue where going dutch is affordable on her part.
musemaj11 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I can live with whoever asks pay even though chances r men r gonna be the ones asking anyway. What I can't live with is sexism in that a man has to pay because a woman's time is worth more.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I do say you are twisting my words. Where on earth, did I say buying me dinner is a fee to getting me into bed? And we're taking this way off topic. There was a post by Nexus_ one that I really liked- if the OP is upset about having to go dutch, then she has every right to suggest an alternative venue where going dutch is affordable on her part. Eh, sorry I'm not trying to twist your words so much as to figure out exactly what your emotional motivation is. It just sounds from some of your earlier posts that the reason you want a guy to pay for your date is because it provides you the ability to feel special. We can agree that a good number of women including yourself feel better when a guy has paid. Why? When someone pays for me, I feel like crap. I feel like a child. I feel indebted. Not feeling that way strikes me as someone with no self respect or someone who is intensely selfish.
xpaperxcutx Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Eh, sorry I'm not trying to twist your words so much as to figure out exactly what your emotional motivation is. It just sounds from some of your earlier posts that the reason you want a guy to pay for your date is because it provides you the ability to feel special. We can agree that a good number of women including yourself feel better when a guy has paid. Why? When someone pays for me, I feel like crap. I feel like a child. I feel indebted. Not feeling that way strikes me as someone with no self respect or someone who is intensely selfish. I don't have an emotional motivation to get a guy to pay, either dinner or a $1 cup of coffee. I value a man's actions and his gesture to treat a lady right. Be it opening the door for me or wrapping his arms around my shoulders to keep me warm. I look for gestures and actions not for how much he has in his wallet. In the case of going dutch, I have no problem dutch after the first and second dates. I have no problem paying for myself but, quoting the words of Nexus_One, I think it's about seeing whether the other person is relationship worthy.
Untouchable_Fire Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I don't have an emotional motivation to get a guy to pay, either dinner or a $1 cup of coffee. I value a man's actions and his gesture to treat a lady right. Be it opening the door for me or wrapping his arms around my shoulders to keep me warm. I look for gestures and actions not for how much he has in his wallet. In the case of going dutch, I have no problem dutch after the first and second dates. I have no problem paying for myself but, quoting the words of Nexus_One, I think it's about seeing whether the other person is relationship worthy. This must be an age thing. I looked at shallow things like that to determine relationship worth when I was young as well. It took me time to realize that most people are very fake on the 1st-3rd dates. Paying means absolutely nothing in regards to relationship material, and gestures such as that are only meaningful if continued over a long period of time. I believe your attitudes on this will change to be more realistic in time. In regards to OP... she should stop complaining and feeling resentful. Take some action.
zengirl Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 We can agree that a good number of women including yourself feel better when a guy has paid. Why? If you're really trying to figure out motive, UF, in a serious way, rather than just to fuss, I'll give it a whirl: Personally, it's not really about money, but yes, I find that most of the men I'd like (who make more than me because basically everybody in my dating pool does, as I'm a teacher in a Southern state where they aren't well-paid at all) are going to come into a 1st date expecting to pay. They do so as a sign of their interest. This wouldn't likely apply to the UK the way it does to the American South. A man wanting me to show I'm financially independent doesn't bother me a bit. A man who isn't generous does. And I'm generous, too. I grab checks with friends all the time, and I don't mind paying for my BF either, but a man on an early date -- who lived where I live, especially one who knew I was a teacher and likely made 2x-3x what I do -- who made a big fuss about going dutch would pop up a red flag. Not because I care about the money, but because the many men (in this region--the American South) I know who are awesome would never even THINK of letting a girl they really liked pay her way on an early date. They'll trip all over themselves to pay and feel badly if you insist on splitting it. At least, I have many male friends who have professed that. (However, if they don't really dig the girl, they think going dutch is awesome.) When someone pays for me, I feel like crap. I feel like a child. I feel indebted. Not feeling that way strikes me as someone with no self respect or someone who is intensely selfish. And yet my boyfriend LIKES it when I let him pay. I'm sure he also likes it when I surprise him with tickets to something he likes, pop over with groceries to cook things, or buy him little gifts, as I do. He would feel badly if I split everything 50/50, knowing I make significantly less than he does. . . and when you talk about gender, most women still make less than most men. So, most of the time you aren't talking about equal salaries. I say this as a woman who, out of college, made a hell of a lot of money and paid for the majority of dating with one boyfriend and half-supported a laid-off boyfriend who lived with me, later. Neither of which I resent. I was in a better position than they were, and we were partners. I certainly hope they didn't feel "like crap" or "like a child" over it. That'd be a terrible partnership.
Knittress Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Eh, sorry I'm not trying to twist your words so much as to figure out exactly what your emotional motivation is. It just sounds from some of your earlier posts that the reason you want a guy to pay for your date is because it provides you the ability to feel special. We can agree that a good number of women including yourself feel better when a guy has paid. Why? When someone pays for me, I feel like crap. I feel like a child. I feel indebted. Not feeling that way strikes me as someone with no self respect or someone who is intensely selfish. Maybe you don't understand because you're not a woman, eh? Your rationale is based on a lot of masculine traits - proving oneself, striving towards a goal, a stubborn sort of emotional independence... Feminine energy wants to be cherished and protected, develop emotional interdependence and community, and provide emotional support to others. Everyone has a bit of both, and both are necessary in the world. Why would you expect a woman to be just like YOU? That makes no sense. Vive la difference. Please stop equating femininity with immaturity. A woman is not a child. Softness is not stupidity, and a disinterest in typically masculine goal-driven thinking does not not signal an inability in taking care of oneself - merely a prioritization of the journey over the destination. It's different, but that doesn't mean you should automatically disrespect it. You honestly seem smarter than that.
SteveC80 Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 Maybe you don't understand because you're not a woman, eh? Your rationale is based on a lot of masculine traits - proving oneself, striving towards a goal, a stubborn sort of emotional independence... Feminine energy wants to be cherished and protected, develop emotional interdependence and community, and provide emotional support to others. Everyone has a bit of both, and both are necessary in the world. Why would you expect a woman to be just like YOU? That makes no sense. Vive la difference. Please stop equating femininity with immaturity. A woman is not a child. Softness is not stupidity, and a disinterest in typically masculine goal-driven thinking does not not signal an inability in taking care of oneself - merely a prioritization of the journey over the destination. It's different, but that doesn't mean you should automatically disrespect it. You honestly seem smarter than that. I give you women one thing you get creative in making excuses why you should be treated special and put on a pedestal beforee he really knows you..
Knittress Posted February 17, 2011 Posted February 17, 2011 I give you women one thing you get creative in making excuses why you should be treated special and put on a pedestal beforee he really knows you.. Well, I AM very pretty. Haha.
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